INFO-VAX Thu, 25 Jan 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 49 Contents: Re: Alpha Server 1200 memory configuration - update Re: Alpha Server 1200 memory configuration - update Delayed telnet connection Re: Delayed telnet connection Dr. Bill Hancock dead on 01/01/2007 at 49 Re: Excellent OpenVMS Pearl - Customer Testimonial - Saturn Electrohandels Re: Excellent OpenVMS Pearl - Customer Testimonial - Saturn Electrohandels Re: Help with Brand NEW ES47 Re: Help with Brand NEW ES47 Re: How to get the codec from a file ? Re: How to get the codec from a file ? OpenVMS Alpha 8.2/8.3 - Canadian PDT/MDT time changes are incorrect. Re: PL/I for Itanium Problems at www.openvms.org? Re: Problems at www.openvms.org? Re: Remember back before FTP? Need to x-fer a file via terminal protocol. protoc Re: SAS drops vms itanium port but not HP unix! Re: ZIC compile errors for northamerica file ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 20:46:53 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Alpha Server 1200 memory configuration - update Message-ID: In article <45b64e60$0$11866$bf4948fe@news.tele2.nl>, "H Vlems" writes: > The other two sets of MS300-BA memory arrived today (great job from After > Hours Comp.: one week between ordering and shipping). It seems that an Alpha > Server 1200 (with one 533 MHz cpu at the moment) will run VMS V8.3 very well > with all slots fitted with MS300-BA pairs. MS300-BA is just 64 MB per pair, > 512 MB total memory but at US$2 per stick (US$ 32 for 512MB!), who's > complaining :-) Indeed. Just a dozen years ago, DM 100 per MB was the standard price. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:13:18 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Alpha Server 1200 memory configuration - update Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 12:46:53 -0800, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article <45b64e60$0$11866$bf4948fe@news.tele2.nl>, "H Vlems" > writes: > >> The other two sets of MS300-BA memory arrived today (great job from >> After >> Hours Comp.: one week between ordering and shipping). It seems that an >> Alpha >> Server 1200 (with one 533 MHz cpu at the moment) will run VMS V8.3 very >> well >> with all slots fitted with MS300-BA pairs. MS300-BA is just 64 MB per >> pair, >> 512 MB total memory but at US$2 per stick (US$ 32 for 512MB!), who's >> complaining :-) > > Indeed. Just a dozen years ago, DM 100 per MB was the standard price. > In 1982 I bought 1 MB board for a Prime from a small startup called EMC for $18,000, which was about half of what Prime was charging -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2007 15:41:06 -0800 From: "RLFitch" Subject: Delayed telnet connection Message-ID: <1169682066.140887.161470@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> When I attempt a telnet connection to my (local) server from a PC, I can see the connection begin but then there's a 1-2 minute delay until the login prompt is displayed. I'm not sure where to look for troubleshooting, but I suspect the server DNS settings might be the problem. I experience the same delay when I attempt a connection at a remote site back to my server. This also happens while making FTP connections. Using the same PC software I can make a telnet connection to a remote server with no delay at all. Any suggestions? Info: Alpha running OVMS 7.3-1 (Hobbyist) PC running WinXP Thanks, Ransom Fitch www.rlfitch.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:30:02 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Delayed telnet connection Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:41:06 -0800, RLFitch wrote: > When I attempt a telnet connection to my (local) server from a PC, I > can see the connection begin but then there's a 1-2 minute delay until > the login prompt is displayed. I'm not sure where to look for > troubleshooting, but I suspect the server DNS settings might be the > problem. I experience the same delay when I attempt a connection at > a remote site back to my server. This also happens while making FTP > connections. Using the same PC software I can make a telnet > connection to a remote server with no delay at all. Any suggestions? > > Info: > Alpha running OVMS 7.3-1 (Hobbyist) > PC running WinXP > > Thanks, > Ransom Fitch > www.rlfitch.com > Do you have an entry for your server in your hosts file on the PC? -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:57:45 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Dr. Bill Hancock dead on 01/01/2007 at 49 Message-ID: --0__=0ABBF8FEDFE177348f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF8FEDFE17734 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Submitted by CSO Editors on Thu, 2007-01-04 16:21. Topic(s): | Manageme= nt (Embedded image moved to file: pic00041.jpg)Dr. Bill HancockWe at CSO w= ere saddened to learn this week of the death on Jan. 1 of Dr. William Hanco= ck, a long-time leader in the security field. He was 49 and died from a combination of complications from surgery, dialysis and diabetes. Bill Hancock was an early supporter of the magazine. In fact, as the CS= O of Exodus, he was the first source in the cover story of our premiere issu= e back in September 2002. The story, "Let's Talk," was about communicatio= n skills for CSOs, and I remember it well because Hancock described the g= utsy step he had taken to be a better presenter: Faced with the challenge of having to communicate about security to lar= ge groups both inside and outside his company, Hancock took the unusual st= ep of enrolling himself in a stand-up comedy course to improve his communication skills. The final project for the class was to do an actu= al stand-up routine at The Improv, New York City's renowned comedy club, o= n a Friday night. "It was one of the most horrifying experiences I think I'= ve ever been through," says Hancock. "You get up in front of an audience, = half the people there are probably inebriated in some fashion, and you've go= t to communicate what you have to say very quickly, very succinctly and to a= whole bunch of people that don't know you from nobody." Such a dedicated and creative professional doesn't come along every day= , and his death is truly a loss. "I had the privilege to know him and am greatly saddened at the loss of his humor and leadership in this field,= " said Motorola CISO Bill Boni in an e-mail. Dr. John Rittinghouse, who with Hancock co-wrote the Cybersecurity Operations Handbook, recalled Hancock's impact on the formative years o= f the U.S. government's serious approach toward cybersecurity, noting tha= t his expertise was often solicited by the National Security Council, the= Homeland Security Council, the Department of Commerce, the Department o= f Homeland Security, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Federal Communications Commission. Quoting from a sermon to be delivered at Hancock's memorial, Rittinghouse wrote to CSO: When the Federal Communications Commission wanted its industry advisory= committee, the Network Reliability and Interoperability Council (NRIC),= to develop best practices in the cybersecurity area, they invited Bill Han= cock to serve as the chairman of the Focus Group on Cybersecurity on NRIC VI= . His reputation alone would easily have sufficed for recruiting experts = from across the communications and IT worlds to participate in this very successful two-year effort. However, it was his charisma, borne of a larger-than-life approach to tasks just hinted at by his own physical presence, which had experts from companies literally pleading to participate in the focus group on cybersecurity.=A0 One hallmark of suc= cess is whether one is invited back to lead a second time, and the FCC asked= Dr. Bill Hancock to lead the focus group on cybersecurity for NRIC VII. Tim Donahue, CEO of Nextel and chair of NRIC VII, once remarked at the beginning of a NRIC meeting that Dr. Bill Hancock could be relied upon = for at least one light-hearted moment and at least one memorable graphic. M= r. Donahue made no such reference to any of the other eight focus group chairs. We extend our condolences to Hancock's family, friends and the many colleagues he influenced over the years. His memorial service will be h= eld Sunday, Jan. 7 at 2 p.m., at Biggers Funeral Home in Lakeworth, Texas. Feel free to share your remembrances here. -Sarah Scalet Update: Rittinghouse asked that attribution for his quotes above also g= o to Daniel C. Hurley, Jr., Director, Critical Infrastructure Protection, U.= S. Department of Commerce. He also added that if people would like to donate to Hancock's family, = they can do so at any Bank of America by contributing to The Landreth Hancoc= k Fund, ACCT 5860 0235 7369.=A0 They can also mail checks to: Trustee, Th= e Landreth Hancock Fund, 15302 Hilltop View, Cypress, TX 77429. > I have just learned and wanted to pass on the message to you that Dr.= > Bill had passed away last evening [1/1/2007]. Over the last 6 weeks,= > Dr. Bill has been in the hospital and was having complications with h= is > kidneys. We all believed he was getting better and was going to be > leaving the hospital when he appeared to take a turn for the worse. = If > you can please pass the message along to other folks at Savvis, I kno= w > that he has worked with and inspired many people to do great things. = He > will be missed.= --0__=0ABBF8FEDFE177348f9e8a93df938690918c0ABBF8FEDFE17734 Content-type: image/jpeg; name="pic00041.jpg" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pic00041.jpg" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD/7QHWUGhvdG9zaG9wIDMuMAA4QklNBAQAAAAAABIcAgAAAgAC HAJ4AAYzMDdfMTI4QklNA+kAAAAAAHgAAQAAAEgASAAAAAAC/AJA//L/7gMKAlJeAgUoA/wAAAAA AlgCWAAAAAAY3xLAAAEAAAAAAAAAAAgBAQEAAAABJw8AAQABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQABAAAA AAAAAAQAAAABAAAAAQBoAAABaAAFAAAAAAAAS1Q4QklNA+0AAAAAABAASAAAAAEAAQBIAAAAAQAB OEJJTQPzAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAAAA4QklNJxAAAAAAAAoAAQAAAAAAAAACOEJJTQP1AAAAAABIAC9m ZgABAGxmZgAGAAAAAAABAC9mZgABAKGZmgAGAAAAAAABADIAAAABAFoAAAAGAAAAAAABADUAAAAB 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Please > visit the web site to watch the video or read a transcript. This > customer has VMS running on Integrity Servers with 5 HP StorageWorks > EVA with 9 terabytes of storage capacity. > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/saturn There used to be one Saturn shop, in Cologne, and it was famous for its claim to stock every record which was otherwise available anywhere in the world. (This was back in the pre-CD days.) A few years later, they had a few more shops in other major cities. Now they have quite a few shops and their main business has moved to consumer electronics, although they still have a good music selection. In the old days, a few record shops would allow one to hear the records before buying them. These days, at Saturn (and elsewhere), one can just hold the barcode on a CD up to a scanner and hear about 20 seconds of each track, essentially for any CD they stock. (I don't know what system is behind this.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:46:17 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: Excellent OpenVMS Pearl - Customer Testimonial - Saturn Electrohandels Message-ID: <00A62370.654A09A2@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >In article <1169567110.288620.153560@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, >"Sue" writes: > >> Dear Distribution Lists, >> >> It is truly my please to announce the availability of a wonderful >> customer testimonial from Saturn Electrohandel from Germany. Please >> visit the web site to watch the video or read a transcript. This >> customer has VMS running on Integrity Servers with 5 HP StorageWorks >> EVA with 9 terabytes of storage capacity. >> >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/brochures/saturn > >There used to be one Saturn shop, in Cologne, and it was famous for its >claim to stock every record which was otherwise available anywhere in >the world. (This was back in the pre-CD days.) A few years later, they >had a few more shops in other major cities. Now they have quite a few >shops and their main business has moved to consumer electronics, >although they still have a good music selection. > >In the old days, a few record shops would allow one to hear the records >before buying them. These days, at Saturn (and elsewhere), one can just >hold the barcode on a CD up to a scanner and hear about 20 seconds of >each track, essentially for any CD they stock. (I don't know what >system is behind this.) > According to the transcript of the video, this is what their dual-RX2620 cluster with VRAID-5 on an EVA does for them. So, yeah, this cool application is specifically what they have VMS in the store to do, because they felt it needed to be available all the time. -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:05:52 -0500 From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" Subject: Re: Help with Brand NEW ES47 Message-ID: <12rff2eaj8uoba4@news.supernews.com> No none of that .... Nothing to do with OS install We are talking preliminaries here... The OS_TYPE in the SRM will not STICK at UNIX It defaults back to OpenVMS -- Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Savannah GA 31404 Tel: 912 447 6622 x201 Mail: dturner-atnospam-islandco-com (You know what to do with the dashes) "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" wrote in message news:1169663537.861535.274550@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > So what exactly did you try and how/when did it fail > > Are you building from scratch booting a V5.1B (rev 2650) distribution ? > Trying to boot an old system disk? Be sure to boot -fi genvmuix > > Hein. > > > On Jan 24, 12:33 pm, "Island Computers, D B Turner" > wrote: > > We have a couple of NEW ES47 here that came in as OpenVMS machines, but were > > supposed to be Unix > > We "assumed" that you just change the os_type and boot_osflags to Unix but > > they are not taking > > Does anyone know if the MBM settings need to be changed and if so what to do > > ?!? > > > > DT > > > > -- > > Island Computers US Corp > > 2700 Gregory St > > Savannah GA 31404 > > Tel: 912 447 6622 x201 > > Mail: dturner-atnospam-islandco-com > > (You know what to do with the dashes) > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:37:47 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Help with Brand NEW ES47 Message-ID: "Island Computers, D B Turner" writes: >The OS_TYPE in the SRM will not STICK at UNIX >It defaults back to OpenVMS Don't fight it. That particular system apparently has good taste... :-) ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2007 19:25:28 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How to get the codec from a file ? Message-ID: In article <07012213021760_2020028F@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > >> In article <45b4c743$0$4618$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>, "Klaus-D. Bohn" writes: >> > Hello all together, >> > >> > how i get the codec from a file? >> >> codec? What dictionary is that word listed in? > > Same one as has "modem", I'd reckon. Coder-decoder. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codec > > You should get out more. > Wiki is not a dictionary. I finally found a dictionary that said compression/decompression, obviously not what you really wanted. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2007 19:30:11 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How to get the codec from a file ? Message-ID: In article <45b62dfd$0$17668$9b622d9e@news.freenet.de>, "Klaus-D. Bohn" writes: > Yes i tried gnv version 2.1. > > bash$ file -i a.txt > file: could not find any magic files! > bash$ > > Perhaps the command is not right. I don't know. > > I will look for an another solution. > Sounds like you got file without the majic files from gnv. Try getting it from gnu instead of gnv. (I almost missed that in this font, maybe I should change terminal emulators.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:26:21 -0800 From: "Fred Hoenisch" Subject: OpenVMS Alpha 8.2/8.3 - Canadian PDT/MDT time changes are incorrect. Message-ID: <45b7eb1d$1@flight> After starting a new thread on ITRC, opening a call with HP, and spending 45 minutes on the phone with HP Engineering - it has been confirmed that Canadian Pacific and Mountain Daylight Saving Time (PDT/MDT) changes are incorrect on OpenVMS Alpha 8.2 (with VMS82A_TZ-V0100 installed) and OpenVMS Alpha 8.3. The work around, at this point, is to set your time to the US Pacific or Mountain zones by running SYS$MANAGER:NET$CONFIGURE. We run DECNET PHASE V and DTSS - your work around may be different depending on your configuration. At this point, HP Engineering does not intend to provide an updated 8.2 TZ patch or a new 8.3 TZ patch. Fred Hoenisch Frederick Hoenisch WTS - Workplace Technology Services OpenVMS Services - Data Management E305 (3 BE) 4000 Seymour Place Victoria, British Columbia, Canada V8X 4S8 Telephone: (250) 387 5673 Facsimile: (250) 387 5231 Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this posting are the sole responsibility of the author and have in no way been reviewed by my employer or network provider. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:57:11 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: PL/I for Itanium Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >>[snip] >> >>posted by Tom Linden of Kednos (the company that provides PL/I on VAX >>and Alpha). >> >>>p.s. Any word on PL/I for Itanium VMS? >> >>No. Do you need it? If so have you told HP? > > > Did anyone actually need to be told that "the world" needed: > > - personal computers? > - Microwave ovens? > - laptop computers? > - flat-screen (non-CRT) displays? > - cell phones? > - broadband internet access? > - iPods? > - cars and trucks that generate their own energy using no petroleum products? > (oh wait - we don't have those yet, either!) > I haven't seen a PL/I compiler on ANY platform in the last thirteen years. That doesn't mean that there aren't any but it suggests that PL/I is not widely used. It tried to be all things to all men and, I suspect, it wasn't the best at ANYTHING! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 17:42:11 -0500 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Problems at www.openvms.org? Message-ID: <7dd80f60701241442n54152649i56835c7eca6fa46c@mail.gmail.com> I'm getting the following errors when trying to connect to www.openvms.org Warning: Too many connections in /usr/local/www/openvms.org/htdocs/include/common.inc.php on line 60 Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in /usr/local/www/openvms.org/htdocs/include/common.inc.php on line 60 Unable to connect to database ovms_org. Be sure to edit include/common.inc.php. Can someone check on the web site? Ken ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2007 17:37:15 -0800 From: "Bob Gezelter" Subject: Re: Problems at www.openvms.org? Message-ID: <1169689034.946188.324050@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com> Ken Robinson wrote: > I'm getting the following errors when trying to connect to www.openvms.org > > Warning: Too many connections in > /usr/local/www/openvms.org/htdocs/include/common.inc.php on line 60 > > Warning: MySQL Connection Failed: Too many connections in > /usr/local/www/openvms.org/htdocs/include/common.inc.php on line 60 > Unable to connect to database ovms_org. Be sure to edit include/common.inc.php. > > Can someone check on the web site? > > Ken Ken, I have relayed the problem information to Ken Farmer, who runs the site. The problem should be corrected shortly. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com The OpenVMS Consultant, OpenVMS.org, http://www.openvms.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:01:55 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Remember back before FTP? Need to x-fer a file via terminal protocol. protoc Message-ID: <45B81DA3.5AC5131D@spam.comcast.net> joshua.lutz@gmail.com wrote: > > Thank you all. I went the zip->uuencode->pc->uudecode option. > > I wasn't sure if uuencode was available but it was. I've been lucky to > have avoided terminal based xfers for a long time now. However, UU[EN|DE]CODE doesn't ship with the base o.s. ...but the DUMP command does! So, I wrote some DCL to convert DUMP output back to Fixed-512. Not fast, but it runs on every VMS system I've tried - even all the way back to V5.3-2! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:45:47 -0500 From: Chuck Aaron Subject: Re: SAS drops vms itanium port but not HP unix! Message-ID: What are the other alternatives with same or similar graphing capabilities as SAS for VMS? bob@instantwhip.com wrote: >On Jan 24, 11:16 am, "Ian Miller" wrote: > > >>Exactly. As I asked elsewhere, how many people responded last October >>when they said they would end support for OpenVMS Alpha >> >>http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=06/10/20/4267457 >> >>Not enough I guess. >> >> > >didn't HP reply? It sounds like they did with HP unix ... so if they >want vms to >have apps and succeed they need to do the same ... do they want more >schools and universities running vms? > >Or is this a ploy to try to move more people from vms to their garbage >convuluted unix which in most cases will never happen ... > > > ------------------------------ Date: 24 Jan 2007 15:34:35 -0800 From: sean@obanion.us Subject: Re: ZIC compile errors for northamerica file Message-ID: <1169681675.060933.38260@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> OK, I got this to compile by installing the VMS732 TZ V0300 on a VMS 7.3-2 system and copying the ZIC.EXE to the VMS 7.3-1 system. However, rather than compiling the source, I just moved the SYS$COMMON:[TIMEZONE.SYSTEM] tree from the patched VMS 7.3-2 system, which has updated binary files, and rebooted or ran UTC$TIME_SETUP to update the VMS 7.3-1 system. Sean On Jan 22, 9:30 am, s...@obanion.us wrote: > Editing the file was the first thing I tried, and although the first > three errors do disappear, the last does not. > > Upon futher investigations the u and s characters in question are valid > for that time field, and are used in a number of other places in the > file without errror. > Looking at the 2006 version of the northamerica file, the four > locations have had these values for some time, so I'm wondering if this > is a bug in the older version of ZIC that shipped with VMS 7.3-1. > > I'm updating a system running VMS 7.3-2 which has a supported patch > that includes an updated ZIC image. I'm going to try to execute that > image on 7.3-1 to see what happens, as well as copying the output files > from 7.3-2 to 7.3-1. > > I'm also going to compile the northamerica file under 7.3-2 to see what > happens. If the errors appear there, I will open a ticket on ITRC, > since 7.3-2 still gets support. > > Sean > > mckinn...@saic.com wrote: > > s...@obanion.us wrote: > > > I'm tying to get ZIC to complie the timezone file northamerica, from > > >ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/that I got today, > > > and I'm getting some errors that don't make sence. It's not the > > > location or dates that I need, but I expect the file as a whole to work > > > correctly. > > > > I've included the command output and the lines from the zonefile below. > > > > This is VMS 7.3-1 Alpha with all patches idetified by the ITRC, on an > > > AS2100A. > > > > Has anybody else gotten this to work? > > > > Sean > > > > $ zic -d [.ZIC] northamerica. > > > "dra3:[000000.timezone]northamerica.;1", line 125: invalid time of day > > > "dra3:[000000.timezone]northamerica.;1", line 419: invalid time of day > > > "dra3:[000000.timezone]northamerica.;1", line 959: invalid time of day > > > "dra3:[000000.timezone]northamerica.;1", line 1090: use of 2/29 in non > > > leap-year > > > $ > > > > >From the northamerica file, the lines in question and the section of > > > the file they're from. > > > > Line 125: > > > Rule US 1945 only - Aug 14 23:00u 1:00 P # Peace > > > I haven't tried compiling this particular file, but, I'll offer a guess > > at a solution. Why not try editing NORTHAMERICA. and remove those > > trailing "u" characters on the times in the first three lines that are > > cited and remove the trailing "s" in the 4 cited line - and then use > > the ZIC? ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.049 ************************