INFO-VAX Sun, 18 Mar 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 154 Contents: (no subject) Re: AMD's well may be running dry ANN: AsItHappens for OpenVMS RE: cluster upgrade stratedy Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 RE: HP OpenVMS I64 Support Plans? Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Re: Power Consumption Re: SOS editor (was: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms) Re: SOS editor (was: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms) Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:21:30 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <45FD751A.9050505@comcast.net> UNSUBSCRIBE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:22:58 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: AMD's well may be running dry Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 11:52:59 -0800, JF Mezei wrote: > Dr. Dweeb wrote: >> What is needed is real science instead of "climatologists" postulating >> cause-effect and then trying to prove it, and having failed, using the >> political process to sell the idea anyway. > > > Are you able to disprove the fact that when water goes from -0 to +0, it > melts ? but it takes 80 calories/cm**3 whereas only on calorie to go from +1 to +2, which is why glaciers hang around so long. You really shouls stick to programming. > > Are you able to diprove the number on the amount of ice on land in both > the arctic/greenland as well as antarctica ? > > Are you able to disprove the fact that more and more of the arctic ocean > becomes open water in the summer and that the summer (in terms of > navication) is longer now than it was before ? Are you able to disprove > that this ice is currently melting and are you able to provide that > satellite imaging showing ice covered surfaces schrinking ? > > Are you able to disprove the fact that darker substances aborb more heat > than white snow ? (aka: open ocean water versus ice/snow covered ocean) > ? > > Are you aware of El Ninio and the destructuve nature of the weather that > accompanies it ? It is caused by minute temperature changes in ocean > water. > Imagine how much a more significant change in ocean temperature and > water levels would do. > > How much in terms of assets and infrastructure in the USA are near sea > level ? How much or that would be destroyed by rising sea levels which > would bring more destruction/flooding/erosion during storms ? > > > Can you really afford to ignore the scientific facts ? > > Again, forget the USA's weather. You need to consider the border zones > where the average temperature is near the freezing point. Raise the > average temperature by a couple of degrees and all of a sudden, you have > a lot of ice melting into the ocean. > > Your reaction is akin to homeonewrs near a river being warned of > possible flooding in the spring and refuse to sand bag their property > because they see no scientific evidence that this will happen since > those are just predictions. > > > You are correct. This isn't hard evidence like the knowkedge that mixing > glycerine with nitro something creates a mighty explosive. > > But the humanity has moved beyond just empirical evidence a LONG LONG > time ago. We have the power of reason and deduction. And we can predict > certain things. Eisntein was pretty good and coming up with theories > that have been accepted. > > Based on what we are seeing happen today (weather data, and those are > factual), we can reson/deduct that we are headed towards something > really really bad if nothing is done with it. > > We also know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (as well as others). Humans > have that uncanny hability to test CO2 in a lab and find that it lets > light though, but reflects infrared, AND they are able to deduct what > happens on a planerary scale. > > > We also know that humans have recently begun to introduce large > quantities of CO2 in the atmosphere (previously sequestered for millions > of years underground), and that the weather DATA starts to match CO2 > emissions starting at a certain point. (aka: when CO2 production > exceeded plant consumption of CO2. > > Consider also that airlines dump CO2 in upper atmoshere where plants > can't get to it. The minute it goes out the jet engines, it is > contributing to rising temperatures. At least the gas that comes out of > the SUV/Hummers people drive takes a number of years before it reaches > the upper atmosphere, and at least while still near the ground, those > gases have a chance to be captured by plants. > > Sorry, but people who refuse to accept the fact that CO2 is harming the > planet are like ultra religious people who refused to accept the fact > that the earth is not the centre of the universe. > > > > > > >> >>> When you drill for oil, you sell the oil with a fossil fuel tax on it. >>> The refiner buys oil to be refined and buys oil to fuel the refining >>> process. The refined product is sold with a tax that combines both. >>> >>> The steel maker buys refined oil and pays that fossil fuel tax. When >>> it sells the steel to the car manufacturer, it includes that fossil >>> fuel tax. >>> The car manufacturer then also buys oil to fuel its car assembly >>> plants and the fossil fuel taxes from all the products that go into >>> the car are combined. >>> >>> When the car is sold, the owner ends up paying for the total carbon >>> footprint that was used to manufacture the car. The beauty of this is >>> that if >>> that car is exported to another country, it is the person in the >>> other country that inherits the responsability for the car's carbon >>> footprint and it affects that country's per capita carbon footprint. >>> (just discussing manufacture it, not >>> use). >>> Similarly, when someone buys fuel at a petrol station to power >>> his/her car, they pay the end carbon tax on the refined fuel (just >>> like the steel maker did). But being the end user, they can't deduct >>> it and it goes against that country's per capita CO2 consumption. >>> >>> Lets assume for a minute that the USA had a positive trade balance, >>> and generated 25% of the world's pollution. Americans citizens should >>> not be penalised for the carbon emissions generated when producing >>> widgets >>> that are exported to canada, mexico or anywhere else. It is the >>> importers that should be penalised. >>> >>> But a company that is highly inefficient and which consumes a lot of >>> oil to produce a widget will not be as competitive as one which is far >>> more >>> efficient since the more efficient one will have a smaller carbon tax >>> attached to the product. >>> There would have to be some exceptions such as companies that >>> sequester oil products (plastics, vaseline, lubricants etc). Those do >>> not get burned so they should get a refund on the carbon tax for the >>> amount of fuel they sequester (but still pay the carbon tax generated >>> when the raw oil was refined before being delivered to them). >> -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 2007 07:28:43 -0700 From: thierry.uso@wanadoo.fr Subject: ANN: AsItHappens for OpenVMS Message-ID: <1174228123.335287.16250@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> AsItHappens is a real-time network statistics collector and grapher written in Java and published under GPL. It uses SNMP and ICMP to collect data from devices over a network and displays graphs of network response, bandwidth, processor and memory usage, Cisco NBAR and Netflow. In addition, AsItHappens can graphically display flow information from a tcpdump file. AsItHappens 0.34 has been ported on OpenVMS. Porting means testing all the functions, writing a startup procedure and creating a PCSI kit. AsItHappens for OpenVMS needs Java 1.5.0 or later and must be installed on an ODS5 volume. AsItHappens has been tested on Alpha and Itanium. Download link: http://vmsfree.free.fr/freen/index.php?s=asithappens ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:13:24 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: cluster upgrade stratedy Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Don.Zong@gmail.com [mailto:Don.Zong@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: March 17, 2007 10:09 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: cluster upgrade stratedy >=20 > Hi, >=20 > We are thinking upgrade our 3-nodes cluster openvms 8.2-1 itanium to > openvms 8.3. Right now every node boots off the the same system disk > which is on eva3000. >=20 > The upgrade approach we are trying to do >=20 > 1. clone a system disk say disk B > 2. let node A,B boot from the original system disk > 3. let node C boot from disk B ( change logicals for some common files > ie uaf , so node C use the same file as node A, B does) > 4. upgrade node C > 5. testing on node C > 6. if everything is fine, let node A, B boot from disk B > 7. after a couple of months, if everything is ok remove the original > system from cluster. > 8. done >=20 > Wondering if anything I've overlooked ? Any suggestions? comments? >=20 > Thanks > Don >=20 What you are describing is essentially known as a rolling upgrade. If it is desired to have this capability, I would recommend you maintain a second system disk like you described and have a common disk with all of the common files recommended in the OpenVMS doc's under recommended cluster config's using a second system disk. [note that whereever I say "disk". I mean a HW RAID disk] If your applications are cluster aware, then with some basic user and connection load balancing, you can establish an environment whereby you can shut down systems proactively with *zero* application availability impact - even for system OS upgrades. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:19:26 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Subject: Re: Cool new features in OpenVMS 8.3 Message-ID: <87abybaxap.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com> "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" writes: > Oops. I forgot to mention: > $BACKUP/ENCRYPT That has been there `forever'. What is new is that the encryption code is now in base VMS distro. Guess this means the fort can now crack 3DES in a few sec. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:45:26 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: HP OpenVMS I64 Support Plans? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]=20 > Sent: March 16, 2007 2:43 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: HP OpenVMS I64 Support Plans? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > My reply was with regards to JF's comments on the OpenVMS roadmap > > documents and whether they should be considered legally=20 > binding or not. >=20 >=20 > The problem with VMS is that while very neat, its roadmap is=20 > meaningless from a=20 > commitment point of view. With Microsoft, you don't really=20 > have to wonder=20 > whether they will stop developping and marketing windows or=20 > not. You don't need=20 > commitments for future development of Windows. And with=20 > Windows, you don't need=20 > to worry about the platform being pulled from under Microsoft's rug. >=20 You mean like their recent decision to drop Foxpro? Yes, long term support is planned, but is this what you mean about not worrying if your platform may get pulled? http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2104934,00.asp "Microsoft Puts FoxPro Out to Pasture" Microsoft has cancelled numerous products in the past, so lets not put them on any pedestal here.=20 One might even say VB6 was EOL'ed as from what I understand (but willing to be corrected) VB.Net is a totally different product and VB6 programs have to be radically re-written and/or re-architected to run in .Net environment. > With VMS, there are still a lot of uncertainties with regards=20 > to HP's true=20 > commitment. The fact that HP refuses to commit to port VMS to=20 > another platform=20 > when IA64 is retired is a very very bad aspect in terms of=20 > trusting the vendor. >=20 > Microsoft would have no problems promising to port Windows to=20 > whatever becomes=20 > the 8086's successor as industry standard. >=20 Yes, but if that platform supports other OS's, then it would needs to compete with those high end OS's (Solaris, OpenVMS, HP-UX, AIX etc) as well (performance, security, scalability, clustering etc).=20 :-) >=20 > Lets face it, a large portion of the revenus generated by VMS=20 > are for "legacy"=20 > VAX systems stuck at 5.5-2 or earlier. All of those are=20 > slated to be replaced by=20 > a different platform eventually. Those who haven't upgraded=20 > to Alpha yet aren't=20 > going to upgrade to current versions of VMS. When their=20 > factories are shutdown=20 > or rebuilt, totally new systems wil be brought in. >=20 Nope - while those "legacy" V5.5-2 VAX systems do generate some revenue, for the most part, these Custs like their solution because it is rock stable and does not break, and seldom, if ever, needs new functionality. Hence, they often do not have support agreements. Its kind of like believing that second hand car that has run so well for many years is going to continue running just as well for many more years. It might, ... but then it might not.=20 Roll the dice. > If you were to remove all the VAX support revenus today,=20 > would HP still be so=20 > interested in continued spending for VMS ? >=20 As I said, support revenues (from any vendor) do not primarily come from stable, reliable systems that never upgrade their hardware or software. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 09:30:24 +0000 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: I can't recall anything similar in the last 25 years of comp.os.vms/Info-Vax. Bob@Instantwhip, I can hardly believe you actually work with computers. You are a religious fanatic (and you probably can't see that), but please keep your extremist drivel out of comp.os.vms; there are any number of other forums/newsgroups where you and your like can congregate. Now if you really want debate, feel free to come over to the JREF forums: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:41:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: <2e103$45fbb7e7$cef8887a$7028@TEKSAVVY.COM> OK. But what about the TECO vs TPU religious discussions ? are those banned too ? -) :-) :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 07:35:56 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 12:43:27 -0800, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > "AEF" wrote in message > news:1174142135.708688.18700@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > | On Mar 17, 9:02 am, "Richard B. gilbert" > | wrote: > | > JF Mezei wrote: > | > > OK. But what about the TECO vs TPU religious discussions ? are > those > | > > banned too ? -) :-) :-) :-) :-) > | > > | > What about EDT? > | > > | > EDT forever!!!!! > | > > There is no text editor but EDT, those who think otherwise are heretics > !!!!! > > If God had meant for files to have lines longer than 255 characters he > would have put more columns on the VT52!!!! That's why he invented emacs. > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:28:32 +0100 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: Power Consumption Message-ID: Paul Sture wrote: >> We have a standard, it's called 120V AC (in the US). :-) > > And 220/240V AC in other parts of the world. > Actually it is 230V now in Europe. Over a period of 10 years the UK went down from 240V, and the rest of Europe went up from 220V. Many European houses have a 400/230V 3-phase power supply. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:28:59 -0400 From: "Richard B. gilbert" Subject: Re: SOS editor (was: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms) Message-ID: <45FD4CAB.50309@comcast.net> John E. Malmberg wrote: > Richard B. gilbert wrote: > >> davidc@montagar.com wrote: >> >>> >>> The Infidel has forsaken SOS! Remove his privileges! >> > > It is worse than that, it is not even mentioned at this wiki page: > > http://www.texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?EditorIndex > >> Disgusting pervert!! I had forgotten SOS. Now I'll have to do it >> all over again. >> >> For those who came late, SOS was an editor supplied with early >> versions of VMS; it was present in V3.6. I think it went away at >> 4.0. You could use it without having a VT terminal. That was about >> its only virtue. > > > I first used SOS on the DECSystem-10 at Western Michigan University. > There I used S0S version 23 from the University of Arizona instead of > the SOS that was supplied by DEC, which as I remember was at about V20. > > The SOS on the VAX 3.x was very limited compared to V23 on the 10. > > I have not looked to see if the source for that SOS is still available. > > Also, the "line edit" mode in several of the old home computer BASIC > interpreters used the same keys as SOS for the SOS line edit mode. > > -John > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only The name SOS allegedly stood for "Son of Stopgap". Stopgap was a still earlier editor thrown together to meet some need or other. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 11:14:41 -0400 From: John Sauter Subject: Re: SOS editor (was: Please keep the religious drivel out of comp.os.vms) Message-ID: "Richard B. gilbert" wrote: >The name SOS allegedly stood for "Son of Stopgap". Stopgap was a still >earlier editor thrown together to meet some need or other. SOS was, indeed, Son of Stopgap. Stopgap was written by Bill Weir, better known as the author of the compil cusp, for the PDP-6 at the Stanford AI lab in the late 1960s. His subtitle for Stopgap was "works by recopying." He originally intended to write an edit-in-place text editor. To make it work he needed a way to add a block to a file in its middle, rather than only at the end. I was the system programmer for the Stanford AI lab at that time. I told him that modifying the file system to do what he wanted was too hard, so he made his editor recopy the file instead. The compil cusp was part of a redesign of the command language that Bill did. DEC adopted Bill's ideas, and for VMS called the result DCL. The last time I saw Bill he was giving a lecture on handling remote interactive terminals. His terminology didn't survive, but his ideas were used in the CTERM protocol. There must be many pioneers who have contributed a lot to today's world but have been forgotten by history. I only know about Bill because we shared an office at Stanford, and I attended his terminal handling lecture on 5-5. John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 03:59:23 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: <7cef$45fcf173$cef8887a$4587@TEKSAVVY.COM> - wrote: > This raises an interesting question: since Mozilla 1.7.13 is at EOL, > will HP release a VMS port of Firefox or SeaMonkey? This has been casually mentioned here in the past. But when asked, HP will respond that it is not officially on the roadmap. > w/r/t/ your memory exhausted issues: run some sort of monitoring tool, > or move your X server to a different box. Using VMS as an X server > doesn't make a lot of sense these days. I have a VMS workstation. If I can't use it for the user interface, I might as well move everything to a MAC which handles both server and user interfaces nicely thank you. If I am the only left in the universe to want VMS to improve its X windows system, then perhaps I should just ditch everything. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 00:53:15 -0700 From: - Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > When the X server is "running low on memory" (eg: PGFILQUOTA running > below a certain threshold), it should pop up an alert telling the user > that the X server is running low on memory (with perhaps an > identification of which process/window has made the request that cause > the X server to go below the threashold). > > AKA: When mozilla goes nuts because it is trying to display some huge > blog page filled with images, the X server should warn the user before > Mozilla becomes unresponsive and not only he STOP button no longer > works, but neither does the window manager's "close window". And at one > point, even CTRL-Y fails to work. > This raises an interesting question: since Mozilla 1.7.13 is at EOL, will HP release a VMS port of Firefox or SeaMonkey? w/r/t/ your memory exhausted issues: run some sort of monitoring tool, or move your X server to a different box. Using VMS as an X server doesn't make a lot of sense these days. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:11:12 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > > I have a VMS workstation. If I can't use it for the user interface, I > might as well move everything to a MAC which handles both server and > user interfaces nicely thank you. That's probably what HP wants you to do, except of course it should be one of their PC offerings rather than a Mac. In fact, it is something that even old DEC wanted you to do back in the mid to late nineties, given that a couple of gfx cards weren't supported anymore. > If I am the only left in the universe to want VMS to improve its X > windows system, then perhaps I should just ditch everything. You are probably not the only one wanting improvement, but there are not that many left capable or willing to do sth about it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:03:54 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > > But for 2, the point is to raise the alarm before the X server becomes > unresponsible. Or perhaps generate an opcom message ? But what do you win in this case ? A message "hey, I'm going to crash right now" isn't really helpful if there are no means left to circumvent it. Moreover, any additional window might suck the last resources left. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:25:04 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: - schrieb: > Using VMS as an X server > doesn't make a lot of sense these days. funny how some things evolve backwards in time. I remember that once upon a time a "workstation" running X often was synonymous with a VMS desktop box, as opposed to dull mainframe (3270/VT) terminals. Now the suggestion is to revert to this mode of operation. But at least for a hobbyist it makes sense to use a machine with a gfx card in workstation mode, be it a VMS or similarly ancient Unix box. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 2007 10:41:35 +0100 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: <45fd175f$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <7cef$45fcf173$cef8887a$4587@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: >If I am the only left in the universe to want VMS to improve its X windows >system, then perhaps I should just ditch everything. No. You're not the only one. But you seem to be the only one who still express loudly that he still wish/hope... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 06:12:33 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: Michael Kraemer wrote: > A message "hey, I'm going to crash right now" isn't really helpful > if there are no means left to circumvent it. > Moreover, any additional window might suck the last resources left. It doesn't crash (usually). The Mozilla windows just become unresponsive because it cannot allocate the memory structures to make them run (such as pop up the file menu so you can choose "close".) But an existing DECTERM will succesfully come to the forefront and function normally. Mozilla consumes enourmous resources on the X server. I have a 550,000 block pgflquota for the x server and it often isn't enough to display a single page laden with images. The problem is that when you do a google search, you don't know if a page will end up jamming the x server or not before you load it. And once the x server gets close to its limits, you can't stop the loading anymore. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 13:28:04 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message news:etiut3$g5n$01$1@news.t-online.com... > FredK schrieb: >> Not possible. 1) X11 does not know what the process is. All it knows is >> the connection - which "might" know who the user is - and it might not be >> local. > > but if the server is running local, it is at least conceivable > that it cooperates with the OS when it runs out of resources. > It isn't clear to me that it has "run out of resources". Becomming unresponsive doesn't meet the criteria. If the X server "runs out of memory" --- it crashes (or sometimes if you are lucky it kills a connection) - it doesn't just "slow down". Now, it "could" be paging itself to death. Or it could be in some type of event/refresh loop with Mozilla. Who knows. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:27:01 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]=20 > Sent: March 18, 2007 6:13 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server >=20 > Michael Kraemer wrote: > > A message "hey, I'm going to crash right now" isn't really helpful > > if there are no means left to circumvent it. > > Moreover, any additional window might suck the last resources left. >=20 > It doesn't crash (usually). The Mozilla windows just become=20 > unresponsive because=20 > it cannot allocate the memory structures to make them run=20 > (such as pop up the=20 > file menu so you can choose "close".) But an existing=20 > DECTERM will succesfully=20 > come to the forefront and function normally. >=20 > Mozilla consumes enourmous resources on the X server. I have=20 > a 550,000 block=20 > pgflquota for the x server and it often isn't enough to=20 > display a single page=20 > laden with images. >=20 > The problem is that when you do a google search, you don't=20 > know if a page will=20 > end up jamming the x server or not before you load it. And=20 > once the x server=20 > gets close to its limits, you can't stop the loading anymore. >=20 Have you tried Availability Manager (AM) as a means of troubleshooting and fixing X windows issues? It can dynamically monitor *and* fix process quota issues.=20 AM runs on OpenVMS or Windows client. Client driver runs at high IPL so that it can fix things. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/availman/index.html Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 08:40:00 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: <07031808395999_2020028F@antinode.org> From: JF Mezei > Mozilla consumes enourmous resources on the X server. I have a 550,000 block > pgflquota for the x server and it often isn't enough to display a single page > laden with images. ALP $ search decw$private_server_setup.com decw$server_page_file $ decw$server_page_file == "1572864" $!!! decw$server_page_file == "960000" $!!! decw$server_page_file == "600000" $!!! decw$server_page_file == "370000" I may be slow, but I can take a hint. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:48:29 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: Oops, typo in the attached .. "AM runs on OpenVMS or Windows client. Client driver runs at high IPL so that it can fix things" Should have read- "AM runs on OpenVMS or Windows client. Server driver runs at high IPL so that it can fix things" > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry=20 > Sent: March 18, 2007 9:27 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]=20 > > Sent: March 18, 2007 6:13 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server > >=20 > > Michael Kraemer wrote: > > > A message "hey, I'm going to crash right now" isn't really helpful > > > if there are no means left to circumvent it. > > > Moreover, any additional window might suck the last=20 > resources left. > >=20 > > It doesn't crash (usually). The Mozilla windows just become=20 > > unresponsive because=20 > > it cannot allocate the memory structures to make them run=20 > > (such as pop up the=20 > > file menu so you can choose "close".) But an existing=20 > > DECTERM will succesfully=20 > > come to the forefront and function normally. > >=20 > > Mozilla consumes enourmous resources on the X server. I have=20 > > a 550,000 block=20 > > pgflquota for the x server and it often isn't enough to=20 > > display a single page=20 > > laden with images. > >=20 > > The problem is that when you do a google search, you don't=20 > > know if a page will=20 > > end up jamming the x server or not before you load it. And=20 > > once the x server=20 > > gets close to its limits, you can't stop the loading anymore. > >=20 >=20 >=20 > Have you tried Availability Manager (AM) as a means of troubleshooting > and fixing X windows issues? >=20 > It can dynamically monitor *and* fix process quota issues.=20 >=20 > AM runs on OpenVMS or Windows client. Client driver runs at=20 > high IPL so > that it can fix things. >=20 > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/availman/index.html >=20 > Regards >=20 > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 >=20 > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. >=20 >=20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:19:06 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry=20 > Sent: March 18, 2007 9:27 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server >=20 >=20 [snip ...] > > The problem is that when you do a google search, you don't=20 > > know if a page will=20 > > end up jamming the x server or not before you load it. And=20 > > once the x server=20 > > gets close to its limits, you can't stop the loading anymore. > >=20 >=20 >=20 > Have you tried Availability Manager (AM) as a means of troubleshooting > and fixing X windows issues? >=20 > It can dynamically monitor *and* fix process quota issues.=20 >=20 [snip ..] And something I just noticed (thx to Guy and his new V8.3 new features presentation) is- $ Show proc/cont/id=3Dxxx (then press Q and display process quota's. Does not monitor some of the other X Windows limits, but certainly a good start) :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 10:37:27 -0700 From: - Subject: Re: Suggestion for the VMS X-windows server Message-ID: Michael Kraemer wrote: > - schrieb: > >> Using VMS as an X server doesn't make a lot of sense these days. > > funny how some things evolve backwards in time. Time is relative, isn't it? > I remember that once upon a time a "workstation" running X often was > synonymous with a VMS desktop box, as opposed to dull > mainframe (3270/VT) terminals. True. > Now the suggestion is to revert to this mode of operation. For certain applications, yes. > But at least for a hobbyist it makes sense to use a machine > with a gfx card in workstation mode, > be it a VMS or similarly ancient Unix box. Agreed. We now have our choice of X servers and window managers. That many of those tools aren't on VMS is what I mean by "time is relative". The rest of the X universe is rushing past VMS; which relative motion means VMS seems to "evolve backwards in time." ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.154 ************************