INFO-VAX Fri, 23 Mar 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 164 Contents: Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Alpha systems Re: Alpha systems Re: Ancinet History Re: Climatological models was: More proof that global warming is Re: end of DLT? Belluzzo strikes again Re: end of DLT? Belluzzo strikes again Re: ENOUGH! Re: ENOUGH! Re: ENOUGH! Re: ENOUGH! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! RE: Migrate Hardware Strategy Re: Migrate Hardware Strategy Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" RE: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Re: OT: Gore brainrinsing world to ban the tulip bulb! Retiring an alpha 800 with RA310 in perfect working order. Re: SAB slightly corrupts system disk shadow set Re: SAB slightly corrupts system disk shadow set Re: USB Support on Alpha Re: USB Support on Alpha Re: USB Support on Alpha VMSmail and SMTP (blank lines before header) Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Re: [OT] Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Mar 2007 11:09:53 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Message-ID: <56hqs1F29d6siU2@mid.individual.net> In article , Doc writes: > "Dr. Dweeb" wrote in > news:46032847$0$7606$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk: > >> Damn, it is so bogus that it's at Wiki. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_GDP_to_carbo >> n_dioxide_emissions > > So it is! > > The US is in 39th place, behind countries like, well... All the ones that > the posters saying the U.S. need to improve come from. > > Alternatively, the EU is 23 places above the U.S., and if you do the > comparisons on this page as well as the one you cited... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emission > s > > The U.S. accounts for 24.3% of all global emissions versus the EU's 15.3% > > The comparable GDPs are: > E.U. 13,926,873 > U.S. 12,438,873 > > So, the E.U. has a higher GDP and the ratio of GDP to emissions is 9% > lower. > > Amazing what you can do with statistics. "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 04:47:28 -0700 From: "Andrew" Subject: Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Message-ID: <1174650448.830420.220260@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On 23 Mar, 01:07, "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > Andrew wrote: > > On 22 Mar, 16:39, "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > >> Andrew wrote: > >>> On 21 Mar, 11:59, b...@instantwhip.com wrote: > >>>> On Mar 21, 7:41 am, "n.ri...@sympatico.ca" > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) > > >>>>> And then of course, religion provides definite, and comforting > >>>>> answers: "don't worry, God will take care of you". Science on the > >>>>> opposite - it leaves you hanging, and it tells you how > >>>>> insignificant and pathetic you are. It doesn't take a genius to > >>>>> figure out which religion people are going to choose. People are > >>>>> babies. They long for warmth and comfort, even at the expense of > >>>>> rational thinking. > > >>>> science is telling you more and more every day that God > >>>> is real ... creation started it all ... we all came from the > >>>> same mother and father ... that everything is unique and > >>>> there is an order to the whole universe ... > > >>>> We are still waiting for science to explain the resurrection > >>>> of Jesus Christ, and the miracles he did, raising men from > >>>> the dead, curing blindness, leprosy, crippleds, blood diseases, > >>>> all witnessed by thousands of individuals who when given > >>>> a simple choice to renounce everything, they allowed > >>>> themselves to be mauled by lions or worse ... > > >>>> science cannot even explain the shroud of turin yet > >>>> and how the reverse negative like image of a man > >>>> believed to be Christ got on that cloth ... > > >>> The US recently acquired its 300 millionth citizen (an event that > >>> produced profound depression in some environmental circles given the > >>> average US citizens environmental footprint). Your post shows that > >>> you can definitely strike 1 from the the count of Scientifically > >>> literate citizens. > > >>> Regards > >>> Andrew Harrison > > >> The footprint may be big in total, but relative to the economic > >> output per capita, it is not the largest. The figures were quoted > >> some other thread. > > > I am sure that this will be reassuring to the citizens of the Maldives > > and Bangladesh as their countries sink beneath the waves. > > > I hate to say it Dr Dweeb (is that a real doctorate or an honorary one > > BTW) but your CO2/economic output/capita measure sounds bogus which is > > becoming rather a familiar story. > > Damn, it is so bogus that it's at Wiki.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ratio_of_GDP_to_car... > > > Regards > > Andrew Harrison Being 49th on the list is hardly a cause for celebration. But that ignores the bogus nature of the measure because it assumes that production/consumption are a good thing and that relative production/ consumption is a good measure. If you look at the table you would conclude that rather than focusing our attentions on getting the US to be a good global citizen we should instead be shouting loudly at Trinidad and Tobago, Ukraine and Uzbekistan. Clearly a ludicrous idea and therefor not a very sensible measure. Regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:16:49 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Message-ID: <1174659409.832799.167490@l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Mar 22, 9:59 pm, "n.ri...@sympatico.ca" wrote: > > This sounds like the Taliban to me. (Let's not teach them anything > except some one-sided crap from the old testament. Then when we want > to march them off to the next crusade, we'll have a willing > population.) Do you even know why we had a protestant reformation of > Christianity? boy are you misinformed about Christian schools ... they are academically way beyond the public schools ... testing proves it ... and they only have a single class on religion and the Bible ... and they teach "thou shalt not kill" and love your neighbor as yourself, not blow yourself up and go to heaven and get 20 virgins ... who is doing the crusading now? To compare Catholic beliefs to this thinking shows how far in left field you really are ... > If this were true, Catholic priests wouldn't be getting defrocked (pun > intended) in droves. And what about that religious idiot Ted Haggard? > I guess he wasn't able to practice what he preached, eh? And lets not > forget Jim + Tammy Baker, Jimmy Swaggert and all the rest. there are bad eggs in every sector ... the FEW priests being expelled are homosexual priests who where let in with looser screening standards in the 80s because of shortages of priests and also pedophilles whose only reason to join was to stalk young altar boys ... I was an altar boy as was many others and had NO problems ... the problem is not as big as the liberal media has made it to be ... the devil has used those few bad eggs to make everyone believe that ALL pastors are on the take ... obviously he has succeeded with you ... ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 14:56:53 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1174659409.832799.167490 @l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com: So you took it to heart about the use of your company's email address Bob? Don't forget that the headers still show you're posting from work. I must admit though, your choice of new email address doesn't lack hubris. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 08:25:59 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: 216 Million Americans Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part II) Message-ID: <1174663559.390907.168320@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Mar 23, 10:56 am, Doc wrote: > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1174659409.832799.167490 > @l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com: > > > > So you took it to heart about the use of your company's email address Bob? > > Don't forget that the headers still show you're posting from work. > > I must admit though, your choice of new email address doesn't lack hubris. > > Doc. instead of disclaimers, my boss agreed to the change so some unintelligent being like yourself will not confuse personal opinion from company opinion ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:52:47 -0500 From: "Island Computers, D B Turner" Subject: Alpha systems Message-ID: <1307jbtiirgkv1d@news.supernews.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C76D28.A13BD1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All As you are all aware, we are a refurbisher of Alpha systems and = peripherals etc. You are also no doubt aware that HP is soon to can the Alpha line. May I just take this opportunity to state that we have no intention of = stopping the sales of Alpha systems unless you, the customer, decides we should. That will be plainly = obvious on our website. FYI We are stockpiling systems such as the XP1000 DS10 DS10L DS20e DS25 = ES40 and ES45. We still have the other systems available but we are concentrating on = these. We also have a good source for DS15 and ES47 systems brand new = manufactured the end of 2006. These are available fully and legally licensed for VMS (with or without = EIP), as are all our refurbished systems. WE can provide any current license also, not limited to CLUSTER, Volume = Shadowing, Unlimited Concurrent Users, etc. As always when you buy a system you can be assured of a decent 12 months = hardware warranty. We stand behind our products because WE test them, configure them and = burn them in. No other reseller, and I mean, NO OTHER RESELLER offers this warranty on = REFURBISHED or affiliated equipment. We are striving to update the website with competitive pricing and to = make more products available for online sale - those who don't like "us = salesmen" David --=20 Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St Savannah GA 31404 Tel: 912 447 6622 x201 Mail: dturner-atnospam-islandco-com (You know what to do with the dashes) ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C76D28.A13BD1C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All
 
 
As you are all aware, we are a refurbisher of Alpha = systems=20 and peripherals etc.
You are also no doubt aware that HP is soon to can = the Alpha=20 line.
 
May I just take this opportunity to state that we = have no=20 intention of stopping the sales of Alpha systems
unless you, the customer, decides we should. That = will be=20 plainly obvious on our website.
 
FYI We are stockpiling systems such as the = XP1000 DS10=20 DS10L DS20e DS25 ES40 and ES45.
We still have the other systems available but we are = concentrating on these.
 
We also have a good source for DS15 and ES47 systems = brand new=20 manufactured the end of 2006.
These are available fully and legally licensed for = VMS (with=20 or without EIP), as are all our refurbished systems.
WE can provide any current license also, not limited = to=20 CLUSTER, Volume Shadowing, Unlimited Concurrent Users, etc.
 
As always when you buy a system you can be assured = of a=20 decent 12 months hardware warranty.
We stand behind our products because WE test them, = configure=20 them and burn them in.
No other reseller, and I mean, NO OTHER RESELLER = offers this=20 warranty on REFURBISHED or affiliated equipment.
 
 
We are striving to update the website with = competitive pricing=20 and to make more products available for online sale - those who don't = like "us=20 salesmen"
 
 
 
David

--
Island Computers US Corp
2700 Gregory=20 St
Savannah GA 31404
Tel: 912 447 6622 x201
Mail:=20 dturner-atnospam-islandco-com
(You know what to do with the=20 dashes)
------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C76D28.A13BD1C0-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 09:42:32 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Alpha systems Message-ID: In article <1307jbtiirgkv1d@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers, D B Turner" writes: > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Please don't post MIME or HTML to the newsgroup. > ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C76D28.A13BD1C0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Dear All
>
 
>
 
>
As you are all aware, we are a refurbisher of Alpha = > systems=20 > and peripherals etc.
>
You are also no doubt aware that HP is soon to can = > the Alpha=20 > line.
>
 
>
May I just take this opportunity to state that we = > have no=20 > intention of stopping the sales of Alpha systems
>
unless you, the customer, decides we should. That = > will be=20 > plainly obvious on our website.
>
 
>
FYI We are stockpiling systems such as the = > XP1000 DS10=20 > DS10L DS20e DS25 ES40 and ES45.
>
We still have the other systems available but we are = > > concentrating on these.
>
 
>
We also have a good source for DS15 and ES47 systems = > brand new=20 > manufactured the end of 2006.
>
These are available fully and legally licensed for = > VMS (with=20 > or without EIP), as are all our refurbished systems.
>
WE can provide any current license also, not limited = > to=20 > CLUSTER, Volume Shadowing, Unlimited Concurrent Users, etc.
>
 
>
As always when you buy a system you can be assured = > of a=20 > decent 12 months hardware warranty.
>
We stand behind our products because WE test them, = > configure=20 > them and burn them in.
>
No other reseller, and I mean, NO OTHER RESELLER = > offers this=20 > warranty on REFURBISHED or affiliated equipment.
>
 
>
 
>
We are striving to update the website with = > competitive pricing=20 > and to make more products available for online sale - those who don't = > like "us=20 > salesmen"
>
 
>
 
>
 
>
David
>

--
Island Computers US Corp
2700 Gregory=20 > St
Savannah GA 31404
Tel: 912 447 6622 x201
Mail:=20 > dturner-atnospam-islandco-com
(You know what to do with the=20 > dashes)
> > ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C76D28.A13BD1C0-- > ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 02:55:42 -0700 From: "Dave Gullen" Subject: Re: Ancinet History Message-ID: <1174643742.826236.163600@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Many thanks to Per Sandstrom, David B Turner, and John Welsh for their help. Dave Gullen ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:09:00 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Climatological models was: More proof that global warming is Message-ID: In article <56fd39F2838npU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Just thinking there are people who took the ramblings of Clifford Stoll > seriously is more than enough to make me very afraid. His ramblings, no. His observations, yes. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 07:56:04 +0100 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: end of DLT? Belluzzo strikes again Message-ID: <56hvm6F28bh4jU1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-03-23 02:07, "David J Dachtera" wrote: > [...] > > DLT80? Vas ist das? The predecessor of the DLT VS 160 ... Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 08:41:29 -0700 From: "Andrew" Subject: Re: end of DLT? Belluzzo strikes again Message-ID: <1174664489.926264.66430@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On 21 Mar, 17:40, David Mathog wrote: > Andrew wrote: > > Many industry regulators having noted the publicity around losses of > > tapes in transit to off site storage facilities and the loses in some > > of these facilities are beginning to require tapes to be encrypted so > > this will become commonplace. > > commonplace != good thing. DRM on audio files is "commonplace". > > The problem with encrypted files is that they are damned fragile. Lose > a 1024byte chunk out of a 10Gb text file and 99.9999% of the data > remains. Lose the same number of bytes in the same position out of the > same file encrypted and, depending on the encryption method, it will > most likely either not be possible to recover data roughly "after" that > block, or in the worst cases, any data at all. Best case the data is > encrypted in "smallish" blocks of say 1Mb each, and then only that block > is lost. Does the LTO-4 do this? > > I understand that security is needed for certain tape backups. However > imagine what fun would ensue for a particularly paranoid company which > kept just three copies of its encryption keys, only to find years > later when they lose both the LTO-4 drives and the master set in a fire > that the two backup copies are unreadable. (What, CD's go bad?!!?!?!!!) > > So all in all, it's unclear to me that encrypting backup files is > clearly better than traditional physical security measures. > The trouble is that traditional physical security measures have failed on a number of occasions. What this demonstrates to a regulator is that you cannot design a foolproof system the relies only on physical security. Because of that and because tape encryption is available the regulators now see it as a must have for certain types of data. As hardware encryption becomes more ubiquitous it is highly likely that more and more data will be encrypted because more and more regulations will require it. regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:51:34 -0500 From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Message-ID: In article <1174616276.590060.79970@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, bob@instantwhip.com writes: > > I am not using my companies name ... and we have a thing > called breaks, and the company monitors web access so > they know who is doing what ... this is common practice ... > I believe most companies do this ... you act like this is > something new ... > You _are_ using your company's name - you are using your work email address in your From: line and in many companies that's simply unacceptable. Note how my posts come from Eisner, even though I'm typing this during my lunch break. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology in a 21st century world ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:59:52 -0500 From: Alex Zorrilla Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Message-ID: bob@instantwhip.com wrote: > > do I need a disclaimer now? OK > > THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED BY MYSELF ARE MINE ALONE AND > DO NOT REPRESENT THE OPINIONS OF MY EMPLOYER ... > > I do not post like others here for my employer ... I post for MYSELF! > Hey, are you the same "Bob" who won the Ernest R. Oldham Award in 1997, or is that another Bob? Just curious. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 10:05:51 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Message-ID: <1174669551.221993.244910@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 23, 7:35 am, "n.ri...@sympatico.ca" wrote: > On Mar 22, 5:03 pm, Doc wrote: > > > b...@instantwhip.com wrote innews:1174596295.832078.316220@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: > > > > > Shut up Boob, you're an ignorant cretin who would be fired if I passed half > > of your postings on to your company's HR department. Or did you forget > > that you're posting from a corporate email address? > > Silly me. Up until now I thought InstantWhip was an S+M site :-) > > It is kind of dumb to make personal posts from your corporate email > account. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ well, that account is not my email account ... so much for that theory ... ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 10:07:00 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Message-ID: <1174669619.632792.35790@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 23, 8:51 am, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote: > In article <1174616276.590060.79...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, b...@instantwhip.com writes: > > > I am not using my companies name ... and we have a thing > > called breaks, and the company monitors web access so > > they know who is doing what ... this is common practice ... > > I believe most companies do this ... you act like this is > > something new ... > > You _are_ using your company's name - you are using your work email address > in your From: line and in many companies that's simply unacceptable. > > Note how my posts come from Eisner, even though I'm typing this during my > lunch break. > > Simon. > > -- > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP > Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology in a 21st century world sorry, that address goes to no where but the bit bucket ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:58:52 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: John Santos wrote: ... >> Frankly for you the last issue is hardly going to be a problem. > > Are you implying the known neurotoxicity of Hg is unlikely to > affect the OP? ;-) I read it as suggesting that the lack of a mechanism to reduce boob's level of brilliance was unlikely to be a drawback in any practical sense. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 13:45:55 -0400 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: In article <07032211352426_2020028F@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: Paul Anderson > > > Yes, some of the brightest bulbs in our house are the florescent > > ones. > > What about "floorescent", which are best for for reducing accidental > falls caused by hard-to-see clutter? (I hope that I haven't started > a never-ending 'How Many Ways Can We Misspell "Fluorescent"?' > contest. Well. here, that is. There's obviously one in progress in > the real world.) Maybe I should use flowerescent bulbs that are good at growing plants. I thought "florescent" looked wrong, but I trusted the spell-checker in this newsreader that let "florescent" get by. Fluorescent is the correct spelling, I assume. > An incandescent lamp is almost 100% efficient at turning electricity > into heat. I stand corrected. So it's 100% efficient at heating and very inefficient at lighting, then. Paul -- Paul Anderson OpenVMS Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 02:13:13 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: Bill Todd wrote: > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> "JF Mezei" wrote in message >> news:c412e$4602f31a$cef8887a$25472@TEKSAVVY.COM... >> >>> If you use a heat pump for instance, on average, each kilowatt of >>> work brings in 3 kilowatts of heat. If an incadescent generates 1 >>> kilowatt of heat for each kilowatt produced (minus a tiny bit for the >>> actual light), it is less efficient than a heat pump. So switching to >>> fluorescent bulbs does same money because you then rely on a much >>> more energy efficient heating device (the heat pump). >> >> Yes, but in the case where one doesn't have a heat pump but rather >> electric >> heaters aren't you just exchanging one electrical heat source for >> another. > > Indeed - when what you *ought* to be doing is exchanging *both* for > better options (unless your electricity is generated from hydro sources). As your recent response suggests that you are - bully for you, and I wish I could say the same (we may get a bit of power across the border from Quebec that may be, but not very much of it). Even so, a groundwater heat pump and fluorescent lighting would still be a more efficient use of resources. > > ... > > FWIW heat pumps are getting a bad >> reputation >> here in BC because they are so noisy. Municipalities are considering >> banning them. > > Hey, care 'cars'... and airplanes are noisy too. So are children. Let's ban 'em > all, rather than fix the problem (in the case of our devices) or > recognize it as a necessary annoyance. Or, to put it another way, if we can design a refrigerator quiet enough to tolerate in your kitchen, surely we can design a heat pump quiet enough to be housed outside underground. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:08:57 +0100 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: <46039927$0$7608$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> Bill Todd wrote: > John Wallace wrote: > > ... > >> I put gas or heating oil, at a rate equivalent to 1 kilowatts input >> power, into a typical central heating boiler (you call them >> "furnaces"?) and a good part of the power input goes up the chimney >> (flue?). Efficiency maybe 40-70% depending on various factors >> (though modern condensing boilers allegedly do rather better than >> 90%). > > You'd have to get into furnaces approaching antique vintage to find > efficiencies in the '40-70%' range (my grandfather's house had one > around the middle of the last century - it was approaching antique > status even then). Modern furnaces have efficiencies significantly > above 80%, with condensing models (as you noted) significantly above > 90%. > The main reasons for not using electric heat (at least in any climate > where any significant amount of heating is required: if you only need > it on the occasional winter night, its low installation cost may > adequately offset its higher energy cost) are a) where it comes from > (mostly from nonrenewable resources, though some fortunate areas are > exceptions), b) conversion efficiency (also more an issue when it is > generated from nonrenewable resources that could better be used > directly inside the home - otherwise, it's just a > cost-per-unit-heating issue, and hydro-generated electricity can be > fairly competitive), and distribution costs and losses. The net > result is that oil/gas-generated electric heat can't compete with > oil/gas home furnaces (where 80+% - 90+% of the energy produced by > burning the fuel winds up as house heat). > If you have to use electric heat, the most efficient way to do so may > be as radiant heat sources (as I just mentioned elsewhere here) - even > better, radiant sources that are only activated when there are people > near them (of course, the air temperature still needs to meet a basic > comfort threshold, but that can easily be far lower than what would be > comfortable if the air temperature alone was relied upon to provide > comfort). > So the little old ladies using their bar heater are in fact GW heroes ? The widespread introduction of fluorescent bulbs in northern europe generated quite a bit of static and calculations were put forward showing how much extra central heating would be required vs. using incandescent bulbs. I forget the numbers as it was in the printed press quite a number of years ago. It was noted at the time that incandescent bulbs are efficient space heaters Dweeb > - bill ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 04:26:33 -0700 From: "n.rieck@sympatico.ca" Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: <1174649193.232734.78970@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:c412e $4602f31a$cef8887a$25472@TEKSAVVY.COM... > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: [...snip...] > > If you use a heat pump for instance, on average, each kilowatt of work brings in > 3 kilowatts of heat. If an incadescent generates 1 kilowatt of heat for each > kilowatt produced (minus a tiny bit for the actual light), it is less efficient > than a heat pump. So switching to fluorescent bulbs does same money because you > then rely on a much more energy efficient heating device (the heat pump). > > Also, you need to consider summer: with cooler lightbulbs, you generate less > heat in the house and thus reduce air conditioning bills. > Correct. You require light so you energize a light. You require heat so you adjust your thermostat. But when you realize that incandescent light bulbs produce more heat than light, then it is time for them to go. BTW, I converted my house to screw-in florescents 18 months ago. ### On a related note, I saw a news piece about Australia last night. They've got a plan where the power companies are employing summer students to replace incandescent lights with fluorescents. The power companies are paying the cost of conversion to avoid needing to add generation and distribution hardware. They expect to be finished within 3 years. This (paid conversion) isn't going to happen in Ontario because government owned power plants have been out sourced to private companies along with income guarantees. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:11:17 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: In article <4602a90a$1@flight>, "Malcolm Dunnett" writes: > While disagreeing with the preceeding tripe about flourescent > bulbs not being bright enough I do suspect the energy savings > to be realized by switching from incandescents is overstated. > > Here in the northern climes it's also cold most of the time that > it's dark, so we're heating our houses anyway. If less heat is > released from the light bulbs then more heat will have to be > put into the house through the primary heating system - thus reducing > the net energy savings. Can you in any way relate that to reality? Incandescent bulbs give off heat due to resistance heating, the most costly and one of the least efficient ways to use electrical power to heat a home. Just because my VMScluster heats up my basement doesn't mean I'm going to let it do so 24 x 7. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 08:06:11 -0700 From: mdeblis@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: <1174662371.415143.240850@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On 23 Mar, 00:16, "John Wallace" wrote: > "AEF" wrote in message > Actually from what I've seen of ground-source heat pump systems, they seem > to be commonly associated with hot water underfloor heating (because the > heat from the heat pumps is low temperature heat, inappropriate for > radiators). The ones I've seen look worryingly complicated for a domestic > setup. I'm not sure I'd yet class them as having all the necessary > reliability availability and serviceability features. But you have to start > somewhere. This is almost complete rubbish - I have an installed ground source heat pump system (in the UK - 50N, 0E). The system is made by IVT, a leading Swedish system - now owned by Bosch (even you must have heard of them). They have installed well over 60,000 (yes, sixty thousand) systems of this type on their own, let alone other manufactures of these systems. The technology is mature - its been around for at least 15 years, and probably more - essentially its a glorified refrigeration unit. They run most efficiently producing water at 45-55C, lower than that of a conventional oil-fired boiler. As a result, they are best suited for under-floor, but work equally well for "standard emmiters" (i.e. radiators) if said radiators are over-sized by 30% (due to their lower running temperature). As modern radiators are very much more efficient & smaller than traditional ones, even at 30-50% over-rated they are still generally smaller than the tradional ones they replace. The water out of the sink's hot tap is just right to use - no risks of scalds and no need to mix with cold water before use (and thus more energy saving - why heat water hotter than its needed?)/ The plumbing is not overly complex - in fact, its very similar to that used for a standard "mains pressure" system. Ours was installed by our usual plumber using details from the supplier - it worked first time - the supplier only came down to commision the system & fill the underground coils with the correct water/anti-freeze mix. We've been running this for 18 months now - the only heat source for the house. It produces 300ltrs of 50C water an hour, day or night, summer or winter down to -25C outside (that's what ours is configured for). No problems at all - it monitors the house & outside temperature, produces more hot water than we ever need, even with 3 kids playing rugby and all wanting showers at the same time (we do have a 300ltr thermal store to act as a buffer). I can even talk to it on the internet... (sad, I know...). Downside is initial cost - the system is not cheap to install, but has NO maintenance requirement for 25 years (except for general cheap commodity items such as circulation pumps etc.), and for every 1KW in, it produces 4.5-7KW out - repay time is about 4 years and in the UK we get a GBP 1500 (USD 3000) free grant as it counts as a solar powered system (but with out the very nasty visual impact and other more major drawbacks of solar panels) I'm no tree-hugging hippie, but these systems make very sound economic, let alone ethical, sense. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:23:58 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Migrate Hardware Strategy Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John [mailto:norad869@tx.rr.com]=20 > Sent: March 22, 2007 11:01 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Migrate Hardware Strategy >=20 > Jerry Alan Braga wrote: > > Questions: > > ---------- > > 1. Does this sound reasonable ? >=20 > Yes >=20 [snip] > > 3. In (7) above how does the MSA1500 present itself to=20 > OpenVMS as far as > > drive names. Since this is a cluster I am using port allocation=20 > classes via > > modparams.dat and the sys$sysdevices.dat has the name of the=20 > controllers of > > the HSZ70 listed so that VMS always sees them as $3$DKA.=20 > How is this done > > with the MSA >=20 > You do not want to use PORT allocation - that is for SCSI=20 > interconnect. > Dump it! You will not need it - and it will only continue to=20 > confuse you. > The devices in the SAN will show up as $1$DGAx: >=20 > I am not familiar with the MSA commands - if they are similar=20 > with those=20 > of the HSG80 then > it is fairly easy - create your devices (mirror-sets, raid-sets,=20 > stripe-sets, units) > then assign an ID to it - the ID will be your 'x' value in=20 > your $1$DGAx:=20 > device (above). > Each ID must be unique. Also, there are wwwid connections -=20 > rename them=20 > to the server Primary > and server secondary connection. You should be able to=20 > assign access to=20 > the ID based on the connection name. >=20 > Familiarize yourself with WWIDMGR - this will allow you to=20 > see the SAN=20 > devices you create. > Keep in mind that at the console prompt (>>>) you will not be able to=20 > see these devices. > That is until you run wwidmgr. wwidmgr - allows you to set your boot=20 > default device. > The device drivers for your fiber HBA are not loaded until VMS boots. >=20 > >>> init > >>> wwidmgr -quickset -udid nnn > Where nnn is your boot device >=20 > >>> set bootdef_dev > Make sure all available paths are in the string >=20 > >>> set ffauto on > >>> set ffnext on > (one of these is static - can't remember which) >=20 > >>> init > >>> boot >=20 > Hope this helps and have fun! >=20 Basic WWIDMGR info is available at: http://tinyurl.com/33wbf4 I also seem to recall the pdf version of the WWIDMGR guide is on the Alpha firmware Cdrom. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 13:52:15 +0100 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: Migrate Hardware Strategy Message-ID: <56i218F29istpU1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-03-23 13:23, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > [...] > > I also seem to recall the pdf version of the WWIDMGR guide is on the > Alpha firmware Cdrom. It is -- v1.3 (May 2004 edition) on the v7.1 firmware CD. Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 10:25:08 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Message-ID: John Santos wrote in news:0aJMh.8660$EA.3768@trnddc07: > Jeremy Begg wrote: >> Hi, >> >>> In the March 2007 edition of the OpenVMS Rolling Roadmaps at >>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/roadmap/openvms_roadmaps.htm, has >>> anyone else noticed the absence of the following sentence: >>> >>> "The OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x release is under investigation as we >>> assess >>> customer demand." >>> >>> This statement was still in the roadmap as of December 2006 (and >>> referred specifically to OpenVMS V8.2). >>> >>> Should we read into the statement's deletion/omission that HP has >>> completed its assessment of customer demand and found it >>> insufficient to proceed with a VAX release? >>> >> >> That would be my interpretation. I manage about a dozen OpenVMS >> systems for my customers around Australia, plus another half-dozen >> here in my office. Only one of those customers still runs VAXes (they >> also have Alphas) and the reason is largely "it ain't broke, don't >> fix it", which is probably related to having a minimal >> maintenance/upgrade budget. So even if a VAX VMS 8.3 update was >> available, they wouldn't install it on those systems. (I'd probably >> install it here on my one remaining active VAX, but only for >> completeness: this machine exists only so I can compile VAX >> programs.) >> >> I have recently helped three businesses (not my regular customers) >> port their applications from VAX to Integrity. In two of those cases >> the work went very well and *their* customers can look forward to >> some shiny new Integrity servers running much faster than any VAX >> ever. (The third business is running an ancient database system >> called Userbase for which they don't have the source and is linked >> against VAX 5.5-2 and can't be VESTed. So for now they're stuck on >> Charon-VAX but they're investigating options for writing their >> application from scratch in-house, still on OpenVMS.) >> > > IIRC someone from Ross Systems/NCCS used to post here fairly often. > I don't know what the current status of USERBASE is, but he might be > able to provide help or migration pointers... I have done work for Ross Systems. USERBASE was an old product from the previously bought over company, Pioneer. The current package that replaced that is Gembase. This can work with RMS files, but does better with Oracle or RDB. The company, Ross, has recently been bought over by CDC Software (China dot com). I can probably get you contacts, drop me an email and I'll try and put you in touch with someone. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 10:39:06 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Message-ID: Doc wrote in news:Xns98FC742A9F0B6docopenvmsrockscom@195.238.0.229: > The company, Ross, has recently been bought over by CDC Software > (China dot com). I can probably get you contacts, drop me an email > and I'll try and put you in touch with someone. I've emailed the director of development asking for a contact who might know about USERBASE and migration to Gembase. As I say, drop me an email and I'll see what I can do to help. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 08:51:23 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Message-ID: In article <460329AB.8897C95F@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: >Bob Koehler wrote: >> >> In article <9tpbN3lkdcbw@cuebid.zko.hp.com>, brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) writes: >> > "Ian Miller" writes: >> >> For the last few years at previous events (bootcamps, TUD) etc it was >> >> always stated there was no customer demand for another version of VMS >> >> for VAX. >> >> >> >> If anyone knows of demand for a new version then do let HP know, >> > >> > If anyone plans to "let HP know", you'd be best served by making >> > a coherent argument why you *need* it, as opposed to why you'd *like* >> > to have it. >> > >> > Leave out the bleating and vituperative dogma; that won't help your case. >> > >> >> Did customers "demand" VAX-11/VMS 1.x and the 11/780, or was it >> DEC's decision that bringing out a 32-bit replacement for the >> PDP-11 was good for business? >> >> If you don't build it, they won't come. > >....on the other hand, a lot of stuff *WAS* built - and "they" came, only to be >turned away by Bob "GQ" Palmer, Curly, Carly, et al. > >I'm told by the management of some of my OpenVMS ISVs that HP is going around >telling them that HP-UX is the future for Itanic. > >I'm told by HP management that HP is going around telling OpenVMS customers that >HP-UX is the future for Itanic. > They should realise that that is a self defeating strategy. I'm sure that we are pretty typical in that we are planning on moving ALL our Unix systems to Linux starting with our Tru64 systems. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >OpenVMS customers are still coming - and are still being turned away. > >IBM had "THINK" signs posted all over the company. > >Perhaps HP has signs all over their company that read "". > >-- >David J Dachtera >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/ > >Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page >http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > >Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: >http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > >Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: >http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 11:03:34 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Message-ID: <56hqg6F29d6siU1@mid.individual.net> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > > They should realise that that is a self defeating strategy. I'm sure that > we are pretty typical in that we are planning on moving ALL our Unix systems > to Linux starting with our Tru64 systems. Just out of curiosity, did you ever consider one of the BSD's (in particular FreeBSD) instead of Linux? If not, why not? And, if so, why did you choose Linux over BSD? Not trying to start YARW (Yet Another Religious War) but really interested in why people who are used to using the best would pick the obviously inferior choice when moving to a free Unix. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 11:57:29 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Message-ID: In article <56hqg6F29d6siU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >> They should realise that that is a self defeating strategy. I'm sure that >> we are pretty typical in that we are planning on moving ALL our Unix systems >> to Linux starting with our Tru64 systems. > >Just out of curiosity, did you ever consider one of the BSD's (in particular >FreeBSD) instead of Linux? If not, why not? And, if so, why did you choose >Linux over BSD? Not trying to start YARW (Yet Another Religious War) but >really interested in why people who are used to using the best would pick >the obviously inferior choice when moving to a free Unix. > It's not my decision but at least one reason is application vendor support. Vendors such as Oracle seem to be talking up Linux support of their products. I don't think I've ever heard anyone from Oracle mention BSD. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:45:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: RE: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Message-ID: In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > > the majority of VAX Customers have > reasonably stable environments and hence typically decide against having > any support agreements. You state that as if it is the sole reason. I believe not seeing any new software is a very powerfull reason not to have a support agreement. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:28:47 -0700 From: - Subject: Re: Not on latest Roadmap: OpenVMS VAX Version 8.x "under investigation" Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> They should realise that that is a self defeating strategy. I'm sure that >> we are pretty typical in that we are planning on moving ALL our Unix systems >> to Linux starting with our Tru64 systems. > > Just out of curiosity, did you ever consider one of the BSD's (in particular > FreeBSD) instead of Linux? If not, why not? And, if so, why did you choose > Linux over BSD? Not trying to start YARW (Yet Another Religious War) but > really interested in why people who are used to using the best would pick > the obviously inferior choice when moving to a free Unix. > > bill > Of course you're not interested in a flame war; which is why you posted such a provocative question. Here is a useful starting point: http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux4.php ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:56:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > > Until the civilised world convinces the USA to curb its emissions and stop > building SUVs, the civilised world doesn't have a chance to convince China, > India and the developping world to also curb their emissions. Do you really still think of China as "developing"? What do they need to do to step out of that magic label, export airliners (they're working on that, right now they make lots of parts for Boeing and Airbus)? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:57:56 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <6tnW1TvztUe+@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <56grgbF29do4vU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > How many Canadians drive SUV's? What about Europeans? (Just out of > curiosity, where do Europeans drive those SUV's wehre they actually > require a vehicle that can go "off-road"?) Oh yeah, and let's see. > Who makes SUV's? BMW. Mercedes, Volkwagon, Porsche. They make the SUV for sale in the US and they make a lot of them in North America. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 13:22:23 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <56i2kfF297a6jU3@mid.individual.net> In article <6tnW1TvztUe+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <56grgbF29do4vU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> How many Canadians drive SUV's? What about Europeans? (Just out of >> curiosity, where do Europeans drive those SUV's wehre they actually >> require a vehicle that can go "off-road"?) Oh yeah, and let's see. >> Who makes SUV's? BMW. Mercedes, Volkwagon, Porsche. > > They make the SUV for sale in the US and they make a lot of them > in North America. Irrelevant. While telling me they are bad and I shouldn't drive one they are obviously willing to profit from the fact that I do. Hypocrasy at it's finest!! (Oh yeah, the above is rhetorical in my case. I don't drive an SUV. I drive a Mazda Miata that gets well over 30 MPG. And, contrary to popular belief here gets much better mileage at 80 than it does at 50.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:01:11 -0700 From: "Andrew" Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <1174658471.711308.64120@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On 23 Mar, 02:14, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > JF Mezei writes: > > > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > > >> The "blame it all on the USA" crowd as usual, miss the point. > > > You can't tell/force other nations to do something until you do it too. > > > Until the civilised world convinces the USA to curb its emissions and stop > > building SUVs, the civilised world doesn't have a chance to convince China, > > India and the developping world to also curb their emissions. > > How many Canadians drive SUV's? What about Europeans? (Just out of > curiosity, where do Europeans drive those SUV's wehre they actually > require a vehicle that can go "off-road"?) Oh yeah, and let's see. > Who makes SUV's? BMW. Mercedes, Volkwagon, Porsche. And that's just > Germany!! The US is the civilised world. And I am beginning to think > it extends a lot less beyond our borders than I would have given credit > for a short time ago. If the rest of the world had spent as much time > improving itself like the US did rather than trying to take what their > neighbors had instead we would all be living better. > It may come as a surprise but there are people in Europe who do require SUV's or at least 4x4's for their livelihood. In fact the worlds first SUV was the Range Rover Classic and until it became a fashion accessory it was used mainly by farmers etc who wanted a vehicle that could go off road, pull a cow out of a ditch and could also be used to do the weekly shopping in comfort. Before that they all used Land Rovers which while still being better than almost anything else off road still lack refinement. The difference in Europe is that the majority of SUV's (except the Porsche) are sold as Diesels giving them much better fuel consumption than petrol SUV's as an example the Land Rover Freelander 2 TD does 37.7 miles to the gallon, even with imperial gallons thats as good as your MX-5.. Nor is the cult of the huge SUV that prevelent in Europe, Hummer/ Excursion type SUV's are rare. Regards Andrew ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 15:35:28 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <56iadvF297l0bU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1174658471.711308.64120@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, "Andrew" writes: > On 23 Mar, 02:14, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> JF Mezei writes: >> >> > Dr. Dweeb wrote: >> >> >> The "blame it all on the USA" crowd as usual, miss the point. >> >> > You can't tell/force other nations to do something until you do it too. >> >> > Until the civilised world convinces the USA to curb its emissions and stop >> > building SUVs, the civilised world doesn't have a chance to convince China, >> > India and the developping world to also curb their emissions. >> >> How many Canadians drive SUV's? What about Europeans? (Just out of >> curiosity, where do Europeans drive those SUV's wehre they actually >> require a vehicle that can go "off-road"?) Oh yeah, and let's see. >> Who makes SUV's? BMW. Mercedes, Volkwagon, Porsche. And that's just >> Germany!! The US is the civilised world. And I am beginning to think >> it extends a lot less beyond our borders than I would have given credit >> for a short time ago. If the rest of the world had spent as much time >> improving itself like the US did rather than trying to take what their >> neighbors had instead we would all be living better. >> > > It may come as a surprise but there are people in Europe who do > require SUV's or at least 4x4's for their livelihood. > > In fact the worlds first SUV was the Range Rover Classic The first Range Rover I ever saw was used by an RAF One Star who wanted soemthing to go to the field in other than a Safari RR. Hardly necessary as the RAF had other vehicles available. > and until it > became a fashion accessory it was used mainly by farmers etc who > wanted a vehicle that could go off road, pull a cow out of a ditch and > could also be used to do the weekly shopping in comfort. I really can't see some farmer using a modern SUV to pull a cow out of a ditch. One, it probably couldn't do it. Two, it certainly wasn't designed to do it. And three, that would get it dirty. And we won't go into the fact that all of the german farmers I ever knew were much to frugal to waste money on something like a modern SUV as a work vehicle. > Before that > they all used Land Rovers which while still being better than almost > anything else off road still lack refinement. That I can see (and have seen!!) > > The difference in Europe is that the majority of SUV's (except the > Porsche) are sold as Diesels giving them much better fuel consumption > than petrol SUV's as an example the Land Rover Freelander 2 TD does > 37.7 miles to the gallon, even with imperial gallons thats as good as > your MX-5.. So then, why don't they sell the same models over here? Oh wait, they are in it for the money and really don't give a rat's patootie about the environment any more than the people over here. > > Nor is the cult of the huge SUV that prevelent in Europe, Hummer/ > Excursion type SUV's are rare. Just spent the month of January in Germany. While the percentage was not as high as it is here, most of the people I saw driving SUV's were in urban areas (lot's of them in downtown Frankfurt). There is decidely a lot less likelihood of a German going "off-road" than an American and thus there should be a lot less need for them and thus a lot less justification for driving them other than status. I like my car, but it spends most of the winter parked!! Even in the urban areas around here frequently in the winter 4-wheel drive is the only way to get back and forth to work. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 08:55:17 -0700 From: "Andrew" Subject: Re: OT: 216 Billion Americans Squirrels Are Scientifically Illiterate (Part 36) Message-ID: <1174665317.173628.319350@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On 23 Mar, 15:35, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1174658471.711308.64...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > "Andrew" writes: > > > > > On 23 Mar, 02:14, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article , > >> JF Mezei writes: > > >> > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > > >> >> The "blame it all on the USA" crowd as usual, miss the point. > > >> > You can't tell/force other nations to do something until you do it too. > > >> > Until the civilised world convinces the USA to curb its emissions and stop > >> > building SUVs, the civilised world doesn't have a chance to convince China, > >> > India and the developping world to also curb their emissions. > > >> How many Canadians drive SUV's? What about Europeans? (Just out of > >> curiosity, where do Europeans drive those SUV's wehre they actually > >> require a vehicle that can go "off-road"?) Oh yeah, and let's see. > >> Who makes SUV's? BMW. Mercedes, Volkwagon, Porsche. And that's just > >> Germany!! The US is the civilised world. And I am beginning to think > >> it extends a lot less beyond our borders than I would have given credit > >> for a short time ago. If the rest of the world had spent as much time > >> improving itself like the US did rather than trying to take what their > >> neighbors had instead we would all be living better. > > > It may come as a surprise but there are people in Europe who do > > require SUV's or at least 4x4's for their livelihood. > > > In fact the worlds first SUV was the Range Rover Classic > > The first Range Rover I ever saw was used by an RAF One Star who > wanted soemthing to go to the field in other than a Safari RR. > Hardly necessary as the RAF had other vehicles available. > > > and until it > > became a fashion accessory it was used mainly by farmers etc who > > wanted a vehicle that could go off road, pull a cow out of a ditch and > > could also be used to do the weekly shopping in comfort. > > I really can't see some farmer using a modern SUV to pull a cow out of > a ditch. One, it probably couldn't do it. Two, it certainly wasn't > designed to do it. And three, that would get it dirty. And we won't > go into the fact that all of the german farmers I ever knew were much > to frugal to waste money on something like a modern SUV as a work > vehicle. > > > Before that > > they all used Land Rovers which while still being better than almost > > anything else off road still lack refinement. > > That I can see (and have seen!!) > > > > > The difference in Europe is that the majority of SUV's (except the > > Porsche) are sold as Diesels giving them much better fuel consumption > > than petrol SUV's as an example the Land Rover Freelander 2 TD does > > 37.7 miles to the gallon, even with imperial gallons thats as good as > > your MX-5.. > > So then, why don't they sell the same models over here? Oh wait, they > are in it for the money and really don't give a rat's patootie about > the environment any more than the people over here. > No, the problem in the US is that Diesel engines are unpopular possibly because most of the US car makers attempts to introduce oil burners resulted in cars that were so "c**p" that no one would buy them. The other problem was that until recently very few people in the US gave any attention to fuel consumption at all and your petrol prices were low. A badly designed diesel engine in a car is much nastier to drive than a petrol equivalent and the US car industry long adept at producing not terribly good cars made things worse by putting badly designed diesel engines in them. In Europe petrol prices are higher and there is a long history of developing well designed Diesel engines many so good that you cannot tell the difference between them and a petrol unit except that the Diesel engines produce much more torque which is a good thing. They also tend to last a very long time again a characteristic not much valued in the US until recently. regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 01:23:18 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: OT: Gore brainrinsing world to ban the tulip bulb! Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: >> The efficiency in this case is pretty much the same. > > > Not quite. The forced air furnace will have better hot air dissipation > around the house, whereas the incadescent lightbulb will just release > heat to rise above the lamp. That has nothing to do with the heating efficiency, just with how effective the heat generated is on creating a comfortable environment. In that realm, radiant heat (whether produced electrically or, e.g., with a radiant gas heater) tends to win out: it heats up the surfaces of objects (in particular, humans) rather than the air, and hence makes the room 'feel' warmer for a given energy expenditure. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 09:40:14 -0400 From: Chuck Aaron Subject: Retiring an alpha 800 with RA310 in perfect working order. Message-ID: <4603D8BE.6020702@ceris.purdue.edu> David, Thank you the message below. I have an alpha 800 that I am retiring that has an ra310. What might that be worth wholesale and retail on the open market today? Thanks, Chuck Aaron CERIS Purdue Univ. VMS Systems Manager ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 09:47:08 -0700 From: "AEF" Subject: Re: SAB slightly corrupts system disk shadow set Message-ID: <1174668428.446631.200560@p15g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 23, 12:07 pm, "AEF" wrote: > Hello VMS-ers, > > I did a Standalone Backup of my system disk and when I was done I > booted and did a DIR/DATE=(B) and the backup date oscillated between > the last two backup dates for each file listed. > > So, schematically, it was like (sorry, I don't have the output saved > on disk, and I've already fixed the problem by rebooting with > SHADOW_SYS_DISK set to 0, and then again set to 1, and then adding the > other disk) > > file 1 2-mar > file 2 22-mar > file 3 2 -mar > file 4 22-mar > > OK, here's what I did: > > $ @SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN > ... > > >>> B/R5:E0000000 ! (from memory) > > [From the backup save set listing:] > > $ BACK/IMAGE/VERI/RECO DKA200: - > MKA300:SY-070322.SAB/LAB=IDS15/BL=32256/GR=0/MED=COMPACT/NOREW > > Then I pressed the Halt button and typed B at the >>> and booted. (The > boot disk is DKA200.) > > Shouldn't the BACKUP/IMAGE have increased the shadowing generation > number on DKA200? Then the system should have added the other disk, > DKA100:, with a copy operation, right? Apparently, the system simply > mounted both members assuming they were identical and I surmise that > the DIRECTORY command was reading from INDEXF.SYS to get the dates and > doing it by alternating between the two disks for each file it listed. > > This is OpenVMS V6.2 with all mandatory patches, including > VAXSHAD10_062 running on a MicroVAX 3100 Model 95. The disks are > RZ26L's. > > Here's what the disks look like: > > $ SH DEV D > > Device Device Error Volume Free > Trans Mnt > Name Status Count Label Blocks > Count Cnt > DSA0: Mounted 0 OPENVMS062 > 659106 185 1 > DSA1: Mounted 0 DATA1 > 968868 1 1 > $1$DKA0: (NODE_X) ShadowSetMember 0 (member of DSA1:) > $1$DKA100: (NODE_X) ShadowSetMember 0 (member of DSA0:) > $1$DKA200: (NODE_X) ShadowSetMember 0 (member of DSA0:) > $1$DKA400: (NODE_X) ShadowSetMember 0 (member of DSA1:) > > So what went wrong? > > Thanks for your help. > > AEF Crap, I think I just figured it out. A BACKUP/IMAGE *restore* operation would increase the shadow set gen number. I guess you have to dissolve the shadow set before doing the backup save operation and reassemble it after booting. But shouldn't the record-pass have been somehow recognized in the process? It thought that *that* would increase the shadow gen number, but I guess it just doesn't. My apologies if that's all there is to it. (Hey, at least this is on topic! :-) AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 17:27:55 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: SAB slightly corrupts system disk shadow set Message-ID: The boot from the disk should have implicitly mounted it, and _that_ should have increased the generation number. Actually, it should have zeroed the gen number or "mounted" the disk /nowrite, as the real $ MOUNT does. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 05:48:46 -0700 From: "Ian Miller" Subject: Re: USB Support on Alpha Message-ID: <1174654126.461043.236570@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> See also recent posting on Hoffmanlabs web site http://64.223.189.234/node/168 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:59:11 GMT From: "FredK" Subject: Re: USB Support on Alpha Message-ID: <3XRMh.1565$3g.235@news.cpqcorp.net> wrote in message news:1174657579.130353.202880@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > On Mar 22, 12:19 pm, Forrest Kenney wrote: >> mcbil...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >> >> > Can anyone point me to any documentation and/or code examples of >> > talking to USB devices? Right now I have quite a few devices that I >> > communicate with through terminal servers (DS90TL's, DS700's and >> > DS200MC's). Unfortunately for my hardware situation, most new devices >> > these days come with USB ports rather than serial ports. Specifically, >> > I am looking to connect to: 1) UPS, 2) GPS, 3) Power meter. >> > When I looked at the list I realized > that I may not have been clear in what I was trying to accomplish. The > devices were basically USB terminal servers; that is, devices with > multiple serial ports that are connected to the computer via USB > rather than the network. > > I have plenty of terminal servers. The fet that I am trying to > accomplish is to be able to connect to a USB device connected to a VMS > system. I'll keep poking around. And I got some good information from > Ian's link to the Hoffmanlabs website. > Yes - you were not clear because you threw in: > While poking around the web I found a kind of "USB terminal server" > made by Keyspan: Which implied you were looking for serial ports... and most UPS and GPS devices actually deliver serial data. VMS does not have support for random arbitrary devices. Forrest has provided a "generic" driver (in sys$examples) that you could use to connect to the devices - but you would need to write an application that knows the specific details of what the device sends and receives. Sometimes the only way to find this out is by connecting a USB protocol analyzer - which is in fact how Forrest does it. If the device is interesting enough, and cheap enough (or someone sends one to Forrest) he often will hack something up to interface to it in his spare time. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 08:56:44 -0700 From: mcbill20@yahoo.com Subject: Re: USB Support on Alpha Message-ID: <1174665403.659014.154060@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 23, 8:59 am, "FredK" wrote: > wrote in message > > news:1174657579.130353.202880@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > > > > On Mar 22, 12:19 pm, Forrest Kenney wrote: > >> mcbil...@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> > Can anyone point me to any documentation and/or code examples of > >> > talking to USB devices? Right now I have quite a few devices that I > >> > communicate with through terminal servers (DS90TL's, DS700's and > >> > DS200MC's). Unfortunately for my hardware situation, most new devices > >> > these days come with USB ports rather than serial ports. Specifically, > >> > I am looking to connect to: 1) UPS, 2) GPS, 3) Power meter. > > > When I looked at the list I realized > > that I may not have been clear in what I was trying to accomplish. The > > devices were basically USB terminal servers; that is, devices with > > multiple serial ports that are connected to the computer via USB > > rather than the network. > > > I have plenty of terminal servers. The fet that I am trying to > > accomplish is to be able to connect to a USB device connected to a VMS > > system. I'll keep poking around. And I got some good information from > > Ian's link to the Hoffmanlabs website. > > Yes - you were not clear because you threw in: > > > While poking around the web I found a kind of "USB terminal server" > > made by Keyspan: > > Which implied you were looking for serial ports... and most UPS and GPS > devices actually deliver serial data. Maybe I called this device by the wrong name, but the Keyspan unit functionality _is_ what I am looking for; that is, it has USB ports and connects to the network, allowing network access to USB devices. Bill > > VMS does not have support for random arbitrary devices. Forrest has > provided a "generic" driver (in sys$examples) that you could use to connect > to the devices - but you would need to write an application that knows the > specific details of what the device sends and receives. Sometimes the only > way to find this out is by connecting a USB protocol analyzer - which is in > fact how Forrest does it. If the device is interesting enough, and cheap > enough (or someone sends one to Forrest) he often will hack something up to > interface to it in his spare time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 04:28:01 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: VMSmail and SMTP (blank lines before header) Message-ID: With VMS 8.3, they seem to have changed the SMTP% foreign transport so that when a message body contains what appears to be a MIME formatted bodypart the later is appended to the SMTP% synthetised header without a blank line so that the message body's header is part of the smtp% header. Does anyone know the exact logic that makes the smtp% transport decide whether to add a blank line or not ? reason: I have software that picks up messages from a POP server and forwards it to a vmsmail destination. If the destination is "smtp%sugar@chocolate.com", then the smtp% foreign transport treats the message body as text and inserts the blank line (with VMS 7.3, I have not tested it with 8.3 yet). I would like to be able to provide a forwarding capability if possible so that the original header is preserved (with possibly added "received" header lines added. Any hints ? Information ? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:22:50 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Message-ID: In article <56fcscF2838npU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article <0mbOLXVCe9W3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <1-ydnYJEv5Ml75zbnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@bresnan.com>, Maverick writes: >>> >>> But by accident? >>> I can't as a user go into a root directory in UNIX and start deleting >>> files. It won't let you. >>> And I know you can't delete system files in vms as a regular user. >>> Of course the article didn't give much information on how exactly he did >>> it either. >> >> I can't get jack done on UNIX without su to root first. Then I can >> do anything, including nasty accidents. > > Huh? What application can't you run without being root? I have several > hundred users, none with root priviledges and 14 Unix servers. They > sure seem to be getting their work done. Obviously they don't have my job. We have custom written applications which from time to time hose up the system. Reboot is a much cheaper fix than possibly hundreds of man hours needed to track down and fix the bug. Sometimes we have custom hardware attached which can also be a culprit. Most of this stuff has already cost millions of dollars to get them to the generally-it-works stage. We focus our it-always-works efforts where the alternative would be millions of dollars spent or lost, not where reboot solves the problem. And that's just one of the reasons we need access to root. Yes, in many places we've got some sudo scripts in place, but in some places the many needs for root far outstrip the ingenuity of those providing the sudo scripts. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:28:16 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <0mbOLXVCe9W3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> >> I have the same problem on Windows. Can't use the thing without >> having admin rights. > > > Same thing here. No student has admin rights. They use Office, Studio, > Visio, JGrasp, Cygwin, Eclipse, and a bunch of other stuff, including > programs to talk to odd-ball hardware (DSP Boards, Robotics stuff). Everything I just said about UNIX applies here. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 13:01:54 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Message-ID: <56i1e2F297a6jU2@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <56fcscF2838npU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article <0mbOLXVCe9W3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <1-ydnYJEv5Ml75zbnZ2dnUVZ_qrinZ2d@bresnan.com>, Maverick writes: >>>> >>>> But by accident? >>>> I can't as a user go into a root directory in UNIX and start deleting >>>> files. It won't let you. >>>> And I know you can't delete system files in vms as a regular user. >>>> Of course the article didn't give much information on how exactly he did >>>> it either. >>> >>> I can't get jack done on UNIX without su to root first. Then I can >>> do anything, including nasty accidents. >> >> Huh? What application can't you run without being root? I have several >> hundred users, none with root priviledges and 14 Unix servers. They >> sure seem to be getting their work done. > > Obviously they don't have my job. We have custom written > applications which from time to time hose up the system. Reboot is a > much cheaper fix than possibly hundreds of man hours needed to track > down and fix the bug. Would you accept reboot as a legitimate option on your VMS machines? Even after all the people here who talk about VSM machines that run for years? > Sometimes we have custom hardware attached > which can also be a culprit. Most of this stuff has already cost > millions of dollars to get them to the generally-it-works stage. Would it require the same privs if it was hooked up to a VMS machine? > > We focus our it-always-works efforts where the alternative would be > millions of dollars spent or lost, not where reboot solves the > problem. Bad programming is bad programming. Don't blame Unix for the incompetence of the programmer. > > And that's just one of the reasons we need access to root. Yes, in > many places we've got some sudo scripts in place, but in some places > the many needs for root far outstrip the ingenuity of those providing > the sudo scripts. So basicly, you are pointing at Unix and saying it's inferior to other OSes (VMS in particular) when in fact it is incompetent program design that is the real culprit. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:54:24 +0100 From: Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski Subject: Re: Willing to bet this is Windows at its best Message-ID: <20070323145424.7459396f.m_roguski@yahoo.com> A linux story- once while "cloning" my system- removed all /usr/X11R6... was fun building it again though.... Shall I start that most of my UNIX systems (that I have, so Suns, SGIs, Alphas and HPs) are single-user systems ... :-D ------------------------------ Date: 23 Mar 2007 07:14:38 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Gore brainwashing world to ban the light bulb! Message-ID: <37B$W8J3hVYf@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , John Santos writes: > John Wallace wrote: >> "AEF" wrote in message >> news:1174604731.507135.190760@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... >> >> >>>Good point. While converting electricity into heat is 100% efficient, >>>the creation of that electricity is usually far below 100% efficient. >>>With steam turbines I think the efficiencies are maybe 35% (though I >>>think someone just quoted a higher figure but it is still far below >>>100%). That's why electric resistance heating is more expensive than >>>gas or oil heat. If you must use electricity to heat, consider a heat >>>pump, which is much more efficient than resistance heating. >>> > > Don't forget electric power transmission losses, which are also > significant. > Yes, but electic power is one very flexible way of providing power that also has many alternatives to burning fossil fuels for its source. Thus although there are some losses it can, and in many places is, generated and used with 0 contribution to the carbon levels. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.164 ************************