INFO-VAX Fri, 27 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 230 Contents: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: CLD vs. Autamatic Foreign Command; or what the heck do I use? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Re: Free used AlphaServers Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Itanium Performance tools Itanium Performance tools Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Itanium Performance tools Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-basedservers Ita Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: Neocons destroying America Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. RE: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] Difference between LAD0: and DAD0:? [R]OT: Re: Neocons destroying America ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:12:25 -0700 From: Peter Weaver Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: <1177686745.257137.157390@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Apr 25, 4:37 pm, "John Smith" wrote: >... > Yes, it's the same "John Smith". Who else would ask how many Gorhams the > installed VMS base is down to now? >... In that case I still have that VAX CD you wanted. I'll be a stone's throw from Pearson on Thursday doing a CHARON-AXP demo. If you still want/need that CD then let me know. Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial Hardware ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:35:42 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: <56SdnQ2xIeT-u6_bnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com> David J Dachtera wrote: > John Smith wrote: >> http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3673346 >> >> Looks like we'll be going with something a bit more standard - Solaris and >> Sybase IQ for the next 40+ TB warehouse I implement for a customer. They >> feel FAR more certain of protection of their investment with what some would >> say are two 'iffy' companies, than betting on VMS. >> >> Too bad. > > Hhmmm... Looks like HP may be trying to address the I64 memory access problem > (slow in some large memory / many CPU configurations). > > It's probably too much to hope for, and much, much too late and many, many > hundreds of billions of dollars short, but maybe the technology HP develops for > Neoview (see the owner's manual via the link in the article) will trickle down > into the OpenVMS space. HP's server kept timing out on me when I attempted to access that manual. It's not clear how anything in it could address basic Superdome memory access latency anyway, though: why do you think it might? (The new Superdomes - and small HP Itanic systems as well - do have somewhat better access latency and bandwidth than the originals, but they've been available for close to a year now, so that's nothing new.) - bill ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 12:08:15 -0700 From: jrandrew@hotmail.com Subject: Apache on OpenVMS 7.2 Alpha Message-ID: <1177614495.760339.240300@t39g2000prd.googlegroups.com> I am interested in running Apache on OpenVMS (Alpha platform), but the sysadmins I'm working with have told me that they are running on OpenVMS version 7.2. HP's website on Apache (and their port to VMS, Secure Web Server) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/apache/csws_download.html indicates that you need OpenVMS version 7.3-1 at a minimum. Is there any way to run Apache on 7.2, or will standard Apache run on 7.2, i.e. not HP's ported version? What would be some of the issues in getting Apache to run on 7.2, if possible? Thanks! Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:45:16 -0600 From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <4630b25c$0$501$815e3792@news.qwest.net> "sol gongola" wrote in message news:cLoVh.1$vp2.0@newsfe12.lga... > Of course, your lisp machine is probably being designed to not have a > maximum memory limitation. That complicates things. The original lisp > died when you ran out of memory. > This is what led to the creation of the first garbage collector. Mike Ober. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:39:38 -0600 From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <4630b25b$0$501$815e3792@news.qwest.net> "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.trc7mhxatte90l@hyrrokkin... >>>> Actually, no. Many times you allocate memory but don't really know >>>> when >>>> the >>>> last reference to it is released. This happens when a routine >>>> allocates >>>> memory and then returns that memory as part of it's result. >>> >>> Why can't the caller free the memory? >> >> What happens when the caller allocates memory for a node in a b-tree and >> then adds the node to the b-tree? This is a very, very simple example of >> why memory management without a garbage collector is prone to leaks and >> dangling pointers. > > I give, what happens and why? >> >> Mike. >> Very simply the code that allocates the node doesn't control when it will get used. If during processing of the tree, a reference to the node is created and handled by a different thread but the primary thread (the one processing the tree) deletes the node from the tree and then deallocates the memory, the second thread that is handling the actual node processing will either crash or have to handle a dangling pointer situation (the original node is gone and possible overwritten). Before you say this doesn't happen, it does. I have a program that for performance reasons has split the actual node processing apart from the node creation. The node creator creates nodes about 10 times as fast as they can be processed and puts them in a queue to be processed by another thread. I did this because there is a limited time window in which to gather the information required for the data collection, but the processing of the data can take as long as required. On top of this, there is a final pass that cleans up the target data area and it depends on the existence of the nodes created during data gathering. Thus there are two threads, running asynchronously that require the nodes be available. The order of node handling is non-deterministic, making it extremely difficult to predict when a node is no longer required. Having a Garbage Collector is the only real way to do this without cluttering the program with memory management code. Mike. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:06:18 -0400 From: sol gongola Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: Michael D. Ober wrote: > "sol gongola" wrote in message > news:cLoVh.1$vp2.0@newsfe12.lga... >> Of course, your lisp machine is probably being designed to not have a >> maximum memory limitation. That complicates things. The original lisp >> died when you ran out of memory. >> > > This is what led to the creation of the first garbage collector. > > Mike Ober. It died when the GC couldn't recover enough memory to continue :) What I meant was that the available list structure space was specified in the program source as a contiguous block of memory (early 1960's OS). I don't know what it does today but I would assume that when it ran out of memory, it would request another block of memory for the OS and include that in its available list space. The GC algorithm would be a little more complicated to handle the non-contiguous memory areas. In any case, the GC is not part of the system OS but part of the application design. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:16:49 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: CLD vs. Autamatic Foreign Command; or what the heck do I use? Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:17:42 UTC, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , JF Mezei writes: > > > > My philosophy is this: If this is a utility used by one or just a couple > > of people, it is probably simpler to have it as a foreign command (with > > DCL syntax parsing). If this is to be a widely used utility, then it is > > better in DCLTABLES. > > I prefer using the built in parser for both. For those commands not > being used by lots of people I don't put the command in DCLTABLES, > I just let those users put the "set command" in their login.com . I've used (still do) all the methods described in this thread. As usual, VMS provides many ways of achieving an aim. The programmers task is to apply the one most suitable to the task in hand. For .CLD files that execute images 'installed shared, I usually modify DCLTABLES. For debug/development versions of the above I tweak the VERB and use SET COMMAND at some stage during login (or interactively). In some instances, usually frequency of changes or (low) frequeny of use, I use the symbol, get_foreign ,dcl_parse route so the user can start with parameters from the command line. The one I'm thinking of is an interactive program that also uses CLI$ routines to parse the user's input. e.g. $ EMU myprog /mem=256 EMU> trace 10 This is the emulator for our target. The main reason (IIRC) was to be to :- $ EMU @start_my_test EMU> ... commands from start_my_test -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 12:34:05 +0200 From: Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: <20070427123405.a3a350f9.m_roguski@yahoo.com> > XDM from HP does not support any TCPIP or X11 authentication at this > time. But that easy to overcome, run your X server with -ac switch, that's what caused my problems I described in message 1 month ago. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:43:51 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: "Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski" wrote in message news:20070426133621.72e57e65.m_roguski@yahoo.com... > On 26 Apr 2007 03:19:08 -0700 > "Bart.Zorn@gmail.com" wrote: > >> Somewhere in your startup procedures you should call SYS$STARTUP:DECW >> $STARTUP.COM, most likely from SYS$MANAGER:SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM. > [...] >> not know very much about the inner workings of CDE. Our VMS intuition >> does not work there! > > Too bad, because that's where I got :) > > Yup, Decw$startup is, as name suggests, DECwindows inner guts. > I guess the only way to find out is to read all the files and find > out... dtlogin is called... dtlogin.exe The CDE version on VMS is essentially CDE V1.0 minus the tooltalk infrastructure. The images and default resource files are in CDE$SYSTEM_COMMON:[*...] Local resource files are in your home (login) directory in [.dt...] When looking for a UNIX file like ".dtsession" look for the file to be named "dtsession.dat" or worse - dt.session, dt.resource, dt.settings (probably a stupid decision by someone long ago... but that is neither her nor there). In this particular case, you will find it in CDE$SYSTEM_COMMON:[APP-DEFAULTS.C]DTSESSION.DAT Usually you would edit the file in your [.dt...] area rather than in the system common location - unless you want to make the changes for all sessions. In [.dt] there are [.dt.current] and [.dt.home] directories that have the current settings, and the "home" settings (normally you use the current settings when you login, unless you go into the SECURITY icon in dtstyle and tell CDE to return to the home settings at login). You can essentially use all the same resource things that you can find in any generic CDE (V1.0) or Motif/DTWM documentation. You can run VMS DCL commands at CDE login by creating/editing DECW$LOGIN.COM - but take care as errors in it can cause bad, bad things to happen. If you want to have fun, $ define/sys/nolog decw$xm_force_unix_names 1 $ define/sys/nolog decw$xm_unix_names_to_vms 1 $ define/sys/nolog decw$dtfile_unix_names 1 Now most Motif/CDE applications should display and accept unix pathnames ;-) (as long as the Motif version is recent enough). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:59:30 +0200 From: Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: <20070426185930.431c2b6a.m_roguski@yahoo.com> > dtlogin is called... dtlogin.exe I wish it was that simple: $ cd cde$system_common:[bin] $ $!Please don't scream at me :-) $ dir Directory CDE$SYSTEM_COMMON:[BIN] CDE$RESTARTLOGIN.EXE;1 CDE$RUN_DETACHED.COM;1 DECW$LOGINOUT.EXE;1 DTACTION.EXE;1 DTCALC.EXE;1 DTCREATE.EXE;1 DTFILE.EXE;1 DTGREET.EXE;1 DTHELLO.EXE;1 DTHELPGEN.EXE;1 DTHELPPRINT.COM;1 DTHELPPRINT.EXE;1 DTHELPTAG.COM;1 DTHELPVIEW.EXE;1 DTHELP_CTAG1.EXE;1 DTHELP_HTAG1.EXE;1 DTHELP_HTAG2.EXE;1 DTICON.EXE;1 DTPAD.EXE;1 DTSCREEN.EXE;1 DTSESSION.EXE;1 DTSESSION_RES.EXE;1 DTSTYLE.EXE;1 DTWM.EXE;1 DXIMAGEVIEW.EXE;1 PRINTDIALOG.EXE;1 SETSCREEN.EXE;1 XSESSION.COM;1 Total of 28 files. either I'm blind, or DTLOGIN.EXE doesn't reside in CDE... or there's no DTLOGIN.EXE > Local resource files are in your home (login) directory in [.dt...] > When looking for a UNIX file like ".dtsession" look for the file to be > named "dtsession.dat" or worse - dt.session, dt.resource, dt.settings > (probably a stupid decision by someone long ago... but that is neither > her nor there). In this particular case, you will find it in > CDE$SYSTEM_COMMON:[APP-DEFAULTS.C]DTSESSION.DAT No session file defined, maybe it's available? VMS 7.3-1 here. Anyway, gonna try creating [.dt]dtsession.dat and see what happens... > (normally you use the current settings when you login, unless you go > into the SECURITY icon in dtstyle and tell CDE to return to the home > settings at login). Actually it's "Startup", but that doesn't really matter :) > You can essentially use all the same resource things that you can find > in any generic CDE (V1.0) or Motif/DTWM documentation. > > You can run VMS DCL commands at CDE login by creating/editing > DECW$LOGIN.COM - but take care as errors in it can cause bad, bad > things to happen. Tried already, but it doesn't seem to work for CDE (for DEC Windows desktop, yes) > *unix_names 1 EEEEWWWWWWWW :-D But seriously, I didn't install VMS to have UNIX instead (well, except for aliasing CD to SET DEF, but if VMS extremists have admitted setting it... :-) ) Rambo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:20:08 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: <6226d$4630eda0$cef8887a$25429@TEKSAVVY.COM> Not sure if it still works, but, with aproperly defined DECW$DISPLAY logical: $MC DECW$STARTLOGIN will get you the login to display on that X terminal pointed to by the DECW$DISPLAY logical. (the command executes quickly and returns to the $ sign after it has created the detached process to do thelogin stuff). Normally, when decwindows starts, the login screen appears automatically. Are you sure you have WINDOW_SYSTEM sysgen parameter set to 1 ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:49:48 +0200 From: Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: <20070426204948.6c241a08.m_roguski@yahoo.com> > Are you sure you have WINDOW_SYSTEM sysgen parameter set to 1 ? We're talking about XDM, that's other can of worms. Local X spawns plain excellent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:55:37 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: "Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski" wrote in message news:20070426185930.431c2b6a.m_roguski@yahoo.com... >> dtlogin is called... dtlogin.exe > > I wish it was that simple: > > $ cd cde$system_common:[bin] > $ $!Please don't scream at me :-) > $ dir > snip > > either I'm blind, or DTLOGIN.EXE doesn't reside in CDE... or there's no > DTLOGIN.EXE > Sorry, in this *particular* case, the CODE from what on UNIX is called dtlogin is DECW$LOGINOUT on VMS and is in SYS$SYSTEM. I have no idea why you need to know this however. What are you trying to do with it? >> Local resource files are in your home (login) directory in [.dt...] >> When looking for a UNIX file like ".dtsession" look for the file to be >> named "dtsession.dat" or worse - dt.session, dt.resource, dt.settings >> (probably a stupid decision by someone long ago... but that is neither >> her nor there). In this particular case, you will find it in >> CDE$SYSTEM_COMMON:[APP-DEFAULTS.C]DTSESSION.DAT > > No session file defined, maybe it's available? VMS 7.3-1 here. > Anyway, gonna try creating [.dt]dtsession.dat and see what happens... > Don't think that will work, but editing dt.session in the [.dt.sessions.current]dt.session probably will. >> You can essentially use all the same resource things that you can find >> in any generic CDE (V1.0) or Motif/DTWM documentation. >> >> You can run VMS DCL commands at CDE login by creating/editing >> DECW$LOGIN.COM - but take care as errors in it can cause bad, bad >> things to happen. > > Tried already, but it doesn't seem to work for CDE (for DEC Windows > desktop, yes) > Hmmm. >> *unix_names 1 > > EEEEWWWWWWWW :-D > > But seriously, I didn't install VMS to have UNIX instead (well, except for > aliasing CD to SET DEF, but if VMS extremists have admitted setting > it... :-) ) > Just makin life easier for ya. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:15:49 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: "Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski" wrote in message news:20070426213536.f8087b2a.m_roguski@yahoo.com... >> I have no idea why you need to know this however. What are you trying >> to do with it? > > OK, elaborating: I want the xdm to use decw$loginout as login manager > instead of that ugly login screen. I know the "want xdm to use" part, but > I didn't know what name should I put in configuration (until your last > post, and gonna try it now on Jensen). > > As for desktop sessions, well, that's one way to do it but this wasn't > meant > to be user editable file (rather written by session management). I just > remembered though: in very, very old CDE the one I was looking for was > called ".dtprofile" (later it was split into .dtprofile and .dtsession)- > maybe that rings a bell. > Well, I know of many people who do hand edit it (on VMS and on UNIX) - because that is the only way to set specific things. Turns out that it works just fine, and even gets copied around just fine when you do use CDE to update the file. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:26:01 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: <4b94d$46311931$cef8887a$11670@TEKSAVVY.COM> Marcin 'Rambo' Roguski wrote: > We're talking about XDM, that's other can of worms. Local X spawns > plain excellent. Oh, my most sincere condolences. XDM has its own login screen. Have to tried hardcoding the IP address of the X terminal into XDM (there is one file where you can do this. When the terminal becomes reacheable, XDM pops the login screen to it (bypassing the whole broadcast "any XMD servers out there ?" thing. Have not tested XDM on 5.6/Alpha yet. But on VAX at 5.3, it didn't support a mac because it lacked some of the authentication stuff that the mac used. (MIT_COOKIES or something like that). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 18:49:04 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: dtlogin and $HOME/.dtsession equivalents? Message-ID: "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:4b94d$46311931$cef8887a$11670@TEKSAVVY.COM... > > Have not tested XDM on 5.6/Alpha yet. But on VAX at 5.3, it didn't support > a mac because it lacked some of the authentication stuff that the mac > used. (MIT_COOKIES or something like that). > XDM from HP does not support any TCPIP or X11 authentication at this time. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 21:13:21 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Free used AlphaServers Message-ID: <46315C41.A4128C6@spam.comcast.net> Tad Winters wrote: > > Please email me if you'd like a free, used AlphaServer _and_ you are able > to pick it up in Orange, California. The AlphaServers were working fine, > but the disk drives had to be removed and destroyed in accordance with > corporate policy. These are pedestal systems and at lease a couple of them > have video adapters so they will run DEC Windows. A few more specifics, please? Model? CPU speed? RAM size? SCSI / FC HBAs present in each? NICs present in each? Any CD, DVD or tape drives present in each? -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 02:56:54 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <1177581414.828516.172190@r35g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On 24 Apr, 15:29, Dirk Munk wrote: > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote: > > On Apr 24, 5:40 am, c...@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) wrote: > >> In article , Bill Todd writes: > > >>> AEF wrote: > >>>> On Apr 23, 9:04 pm, gen...@marblecliff.com wrote: > >>>>> On Apr 23, 8:04 pm, c...@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) wrote: > >>>>>> In article , Bill Todd writes: > >>>>>>> Doc wrote: > >>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>> some > >>>>>>>> fruit-loop theologian postulated in the 70s that the seven headed monster > >>>>>>>> with ten horns was the European Union. > >>>>>>> Wow - serendipity strikes again: that must be why their exchange rates > >>>>>>> aren't relevant to GDP comparisons - their devilish currency isn't > >>>>>>> acceptable in God's Country, hence has no value. > >>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>> They all appear to want to see the Earth and all unbelievers > >>>>>>>> wiped out > >>>>>>> I'm afraid that I have to admit to feeling similarly about neocons > >>>>>>> (i.e., that the only good neocon is a dead neocon), and since the 1998 > >>>>>>> impeachment debacle I've been inclined to extend that sentiment to *all* > >>>>>>> Republicans (I'm certainly a fan of Lincoln's, but then he is > >>>>>>> indisputably a Republican of the dead persuasion) and more recently even > >>>>>>> to a lot of Democrats. > >>>>>>> But if that puts me into the same category as the likes of boob, perhaps > >>>>>>> I'll need to reconsider that position. For that matter, it's never been > >>>>>>> one I've been all that comfortable with, but in times of war (and I do > >>>>>>> believe that we're at war with such aggressive incompetents, at least > >>>>>>> until they've been sufficiently beaten back not to constitute a > >>>>>>> continuing menace) sensibilities sometimes need to take a back seat. > >>>>>> I suspected as much, but had avoided calling you a "hater" without > >>>>>> actual proof. > >>> Oh, dear - I can't seem to get away from George and boob so easily after > >>> all: their drivel keeps turning up in the posts of others in whom I > >>> still have some interest. > >>> George, you simpleton: I don't *hate* you, I don't care much about you > >> Bill, you are even worse than boob (never thought I'd have to say that). > >> I never in any way suggested you hated me (I of course couldn't care less > >> what you think about me since you appear to be functioning at a level only > >> slightly above brain death). Frankly, I was surprised when you stooped to > >> a punctuation attack (don't recall anyone ever being that idiotic on COV > >> before). People like you and boob are what's wrong with this country, but > >> I don't hate you. I do however pity those who have to deal with you and > >> those who you direct your hatred against. I don't wish death on anyone, > >> but the world will be a better place when all the people like you and boob > >> are in the hereafter. > > > talk about being thinking he is above everyone else! > > > no, I am what is and used to be right about this country! > > > Morality and principles are what made this country great > > unitl 1962 ... if you really think we are better off today > > in this slime pit you have help create, you are lost ... > > > and you will not be in this world when Christ returns if > > you are not saved ... you will be in hell ... only those > > saved will come back and rule with God on this earth > > for 1000 years, then God will create a new earth and > > those not found in the book of life will be sent to the > > lake of fire FOREVER ... > > > and for those who think Christians are a problem ... > > that is your destiny ... > > > and shouldn't you be moving to another country ... > > this country and its principles were founded by > > Washington and other Christian leaders ... > > > read our preamble ... go look at Moses and the > > ten commandments in the supreme court ... > > > it is obvious ... > > Oh Boob, poor silly Boop, > > You have fallen into the same trap as so many before you. You have read > your big St. James Bible so often that you can cite every verse. And now > it has no secrets for you anymore. You can use it as a law book, and > tell exactly how everyone has to live his life. You know precisely who > is going to heaven and who is going to hell. You don't need God anymore, > you know for sure what God wants from us, and how He is going to judge > us. It's all in that big book, and God has to obey that book as well of > course. If only *you* had God's thundering voice, oh how you would tell > us what we are doing wrong!! > > Read your big bible again, and try to find those verses that tell you > that you are *not* God's representative on earth, and that you should > *not* be so presumptuous to believe that you can know how God will judge > anyone of us. You're just a silly sanctimonious man who thinks he has > God's wisdom and the right to judge in God's name because he read the > bible over and over again. This reminds me of some dialog from a Fish Called Wanda. Staring John Cleese, Michael Palin, Kevin Kline and Jamie Curtis. Wanda: But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape? (Jamie Curtis) Otto: Apes don't read philosophy. (Kevin Kline) Wanda: Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it! Let me correct you on a few things; Aristotle was not Belgian! The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself!" And the London Underground is not a political movement! Those are all mistakes. I looked them up. Mind you after the Life of Brian and The Meaning of Life I doubt that John Cleese and Michael Palin are on Bobs Christmas card list. Regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 16:21:17 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1177591623.475424.197550@u32g2000prd.googlegroups.com: > On Apr 25, 1:51 am, "Rudolf Wingert" wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Genius wrotes: >> >> >> >> and you will not be in this world when Christ returns if you are not >> saved .. you will be in hell ... only those saved will come back and >> rule with God on this earth for 1000 years, then God will create a >> new earth and those not found in the book of life will be sent to the >> lake of fire FOREVER .. <<< >> >> Don't be afraid. Genius did not read the Wholy Bible in all details. >> This 1000 years will be a presentation of Gods idea of life. Every >> body will see how good it is. After that every body will get a second >> chance to accept Gods law. > > there are NO second chances ... only the saints return > with Christ and rule with Him in His kingdom for 1000 > years, then the final judgement and those whose name > are not found written in the book of life are cast into the > lake of fire ... which book of revelation are you reading? Ah, the works of St John of Patmos. Allegedly fond of the hallucinogenic mushrooms. Which would explain a lot about revelations. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 10:52:00 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <1177696320.173356.302980@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Apr 27, 12:21 pm, Doc wrote: > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote innews:1177591623.475424.197550@u32g2000prd.googlegroups.com: > > > > > > > On Apr 25, 1:51 am, "Rudolf Wingert" wrote: > >> Hello, > > >> Genius wrotes: > > >> and you will not be in this world when Christ returns if you are not > >> saved .. you will be in hell ... only those saved will come back and > >> rule with God on this earth for 1000 years, then God will create a > >> new earth and those not found in the book of life will be sent to the > >> lake of fire FOREVER .. <<< > > >> Don't be afraid. Genius did not read the Wholy Bible in all details. > >> This 1000 years will be a presentation of Gods idea of life. Every > >> body will see how good it is. After that every body will get a second > >> chance to accept Gods law. > > > there are NO second chances ... only the saints return > > with Christ and rule with Him in His kingdom for 1000 > > years, then the final judgement and those whose name > > are not found written in the book of life are cast into the > > lake of fire ... which book of revelation are you reading? > > Ah, the works of St John of Patmos. > > Allegedly fond of the hallucinogenic mushrooms. > > Which would explain a lot about revelations. > > Doc.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - he had most of those while he was in a roman prison ... so the romans served their prisoners mushrooms? Better enroll for some history lessons at school there ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:47:12 +0200 From: Jur van der Burg <"vdburg at hotmail dot com"> Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: <46319c73$0$321$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> Beware that alignment faults showing up as kernel mode faults may very well be caused by user mode code by passing unaligned parameters to system services. Jur. pinton@gmail.com wrote: > I'm trying to get greater speeds from our VMS application running on > Itanium. I've had moderate success going from using the lock manager > (sys$enqw) to using spinning bitlocks, but feel there is more to be > gained in other areas too. However, PCA does not have system service > analysis implemented on Itanium and when I use PCA to analyse > processor time in functions, 90% is spent in "SYSTEM$SPACE", which > doesn't tell me a great deal. > > So, does anyone have any recommendations/suggestions on application > performance analysis tools that work on Itanium, please? I'm using VMS > v8.3 (ia64) with PCA v4.9. > ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:05:39 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: In article <1331dhi6tv1e665@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes: > > HP rx2600 (900MHz/1.5MB) OpenVMS I64 V8.3 > > CUR AVE MIN MAX > > Kernel Fault Rate 1.33 1554.95 1.33 5007.02 > Exec Fault Rate 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 > Super Fault Rate 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 > User Fault Rate 0.00 1116.18 0.00 3642.80 > > Total Fault Rate 1.33 2671.14 1.33 8553.53 > > I just ran a user mode (only) application (WASD) in serveral different > activities (main image only - no other process(es) involved), exercised > from another system using Apache Bench. There's no such thing as a user mode only application. You can't even load an application into RAM without using kernel services. And I would suspect WASD does a good bit of I/O, which requires the kernel at some point. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 02:01:57 -0700 From: "pinton@gmail.com" Subject: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: <1177578117.117173.30960@s33g2000prh.googlegroups.com> I'm trying to get greater speeds from our VMS application running on Itanium. I've had moderate success going from using the lock manager (sys$enqw) to using spinning bitlocks, but feel there is more to be gained in other areas too. However, PCA does not have system service analysis implemented on Itanium and when I use PCA to analyse processor time in functions, 90% is spent in "SYSTEM$SPACE", which doesn't tell me a great deal. So, does anyone have any recommendations/suggestions on application performance analysis tools that work on Itanium, please? I'm using VMS v8.3 (ia64) with PCA v4.9. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:23:11 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: pinton@gmail.com wrote: > I'm trying to get greater speeds from our VMS application running on > Itanium. I've had moderate success going from using the lock manager > (sys$enqw) to using spinning bitlocks, but feel there is more to be > gained in other areas too. However, PCA does not have system service > analysis implemented on Itanium and when I use PCA to analyse > processor time in functions, 90% is spent in "SYSTEM$SPACE", which > doesn't tell me a great deal. > > So, does anyone have any recommendations/suggestions on application > performance analysis tools that work on Itanium, please? I'm using VMS > v8.3 (ia64) with PCA v4.9. > Since you didn't mention what you've already done, so I'll mention the top three things to look for on I64 to improvement performance for you and others. 1. Alignment Faults 2. Alignment Faults 3. Alignment Faults Look at MONITOR ALIGN, if it is not showing 0 (or close to 0), then you can have PCA collect alignment fault data for your image (assuming it is YOUR image that is causing the faults). We might have to look for other faulting processes however. If MONITOR ALIGN says you are clean, then you can do some PC sampling inside of SDA (start at SDA> PCS for quick help). -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 06:52:11 -0700 From: kenneth.randell@verizon.net Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: <1177595531.559311.158500@r35g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 26, 5:01 am, "pin...@gmail.com" wrote: > I'm trying to get greater speeds from our VMS application running on > Itanium. I've had moderate success going from using the lock manager > (sys$enqw) to using spinning bitlocks, but feel there is more to be > gained in other areas too. However, PCA does not have system service > analysis implemented on Itanium and when I use PCA to analyse > processor time in functions, 90% is spent in "SYSTEM$SPACE", which > doesn't tell me a great deal. > > So, does anyone have any recommendations/suggestions on application > performance analysis tools that work on Itanium, please? I'm using VMS > v8.3 (ia64) with PCA v4.9. Sorry, may be a duplicate... How about using SDA extensions? $ MCR SDA * SDA> PRF LOAD Other extensions may be of interest -- IO, SPL, LCK, LNM, etc., depending on what you are tracking or what your application is using. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:51:24 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: <1331dhi6tv1e665@corp.supernews.com> John Reagan wrote: > pinton@gmail.com wrote: > >> I'm trying to get greater speeds from our VMS application running on >> Itanium. I've had moderate success going from using the lock manager >> (sys$enqw) to using spinning bitlocks, but feel there is more to be >> gained in other areas too. However, PCA does not have system service >> analysis implemented on Itanium and when I use PCA to analyse >> processor time in functions, 90% is spent in "SYSTEM$SPACE", which >> doesn't tell me a great deal. >> >> So, does anyone have any recommendations/suggestions on application >> performance analysis tools that work on Itanium, please? I'm using VMS >> v8.3 (ia64) with PCA v4.9. >> > > Since you didn't mention what you've already done, so I'll mention the > top three things to look for on I64 to improvement performance for you > and others. > > 1. Alignment Faults > 2. Alignment Faults > 3. Alignment Faults > > Look at MONITOR ALIGN, if it is not showing 0 (or close to 0), then you > can have PCA collect alignment fault data for your image (assuming it is > YOUR image that is causing the faults). We might have to look for other > faulting processes however. > > If MONITOR ALIGN says you are clean, then you can do some PC sampling > inside of SDA (start at SDA> PCS for quick help). HP rx2600 (900MHz/1.5MB) OpenVMS I64 V8.3 CUR AVE MIN MAX Kernel Fault Rate 1.33 1554.95 1.33 5007.02 Exec Fault Rate 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 Super Fault Rate 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 User Fault Rate 0.00 1116.18 0.00 3642.80 Total Fault Rate 1.33 2671.14 1.33 8553.53 I just ran a user mode (only) application (WASD) in serveral different activities (main image only - no other process(es) involved), exercised from another system using Apache Bench. Kernel mode faults were consistently higher than user mode. Super and exec modes consistently zero (even though RMS calls featured in at least some of the activity). What can be inferred from such a snapshot? Why not MONITOR ALIGN on Alpha where such issues have been emphasized from the beginning? TIA. -- I wish one and all long and happy lives, no matter what may become of them afterwards. Use sunscreen! Dont smoke cigarettes. Cigars, however, are good for you ... Firearms are also good for you. Gunpowder has zero fat and zero cholesterol. That goes for dumdums, too. [Kurt Vonnegut; God Bless You, Dr Kevorkian] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:08:47 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: In article , John Reagan wrote: > pinton@gmail.com wrote: > > I'm trying to get greater speeds from our VMS application running on > > Itanium. I've had moderate success going from using the lock manager > > (sys$enqw) to using spinning bitlocks, but feel there is more to be > > gained in other areas too. However, PCA does not have system service > > analysis implemented on Itanium and when I use PCA to analyse > > processor time in functions, 90% is spent in "SYSTEM$SPACE", which > > doesn't tell me a great deal. > > > > So, does anyone have any recommendations/suggestions on application > > performance analysis tools that work on Itanium, please? I'm using VMS > > v8.3 (ia64) with PCA v4.9. > > > > Since you didn't mention what you've already done, so I'll mention the > top three things to look for on I64 to improvement performance for you > and others. > > 1. Alignment Faults > 2. Alignment Faults > 3. Alignment Faults And I think #4 is exception handling, no? If you do a lot of setjmp() / longjmp(), it can make a difference to compile C code with /DEFINE=__FAST_SETJMP. However, I don't know how common it is to be limited by that. I built Perl this way, thinking it might make a difference because every Perl opcode is a setjmp() / longjmp() sequence, but it only made a difference of a few seconds in an hour-long test (in other words, in the noise). In a raw (but artificial) test consisting of nothing but setjmp() calls, however, it was about 10,000 times faster to use __FAST_SETJMP. It saved something like 50,000 nanoseconds per call, but 50,000 nanoseconds still isn't very long. This on td183.testdrive.hp.com. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 07:50:07 -0700 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: <1177685406.887896.207940@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Apr 27, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <1331dhi6tv1e...@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes: > > > What can be inferred from such a snapshot? > > If you have sufficient RAM, then I'd raise the system working set > a little to see if the kernel faults go away. BZZZZ.... Mark cut the MONI ALIGN screen a little short. The header would have read: "ALIGNMENT FAULT STATISTICS" Those faults are NOT page faults, but alignment fault... and a lot! Increasing memory will have zero effect on this as you now surely realize. Cheers, Hein. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 12:48:58 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Itanium Performance tools Message-ID: In article <1177685406.887896.207940@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > On Apr 27, 9:00 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> In article <1331dhi6tv1e...@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes: >> >> > What can be inferred from such a snapshot? >> >> If you have sufficient RAM, then I'd raise the system working set >> a little to see if the kernel faults go away. > > BZZZZ.... > Yeah, I realized that right after I posted and canceled the post, but I suppose it got to some servers anyhow. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:09:44 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based Message-ID: In article <59bv92F2l2e7oU1@mid.individual.net>, Dave Harrold writes: > Neil Rieck wrote: >> >> If it is true that Cerner is moving to AIX, I'll bet a week's pay that >> IBM is behind the scenes with free stuff to sweeten the deal. >> > > Not exactly true. Cerner wants the VMS customers to move to HP-UX. > However, a lot of VMS customers are taking this opportunity to look at > AIX as they, most probably, have AIX in house already, but not HP-UX. > (At least according to the few customers I've talked to). Some of those same customers may be listening to Gartner after ignoring thier failed predictions that VMS is dead. Gartner will point them toward AIX over HP-UX. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:51:00 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <12e28$4630e6cc$cef8887a$22590@TEKSAVVY.COM> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > VMS isn't on a dead end platform. Integrity servers are cheaper than > Alpha and they cost less to license and have an easier licensing model > than AlphaServers. Do you really think it makes sense for Intel to continue to spend billions developping IA64 when its 64 bit 8086 provides performance that is on par, and will shortly sport the CSI that will allow much greater performance and scaling ? Do you really think IA64, with a fairly long product cycle, can keep up with the 8086 which has much higher development resources and quicker development cycle ? The fact that IA64 is cheaper than artificially high priced Alphas is irrelevant. Industry has not adopted IA64. yes, HP and Intel can brag about increased IA64 sales. When you cut off Alpha and PaRisc, 70% of HP's enterprise customers will accept the blackmail and move to that IA64 thing because they have no choice and because HP makes sure the price for the real platforms remains higher than that of Ia64. But remember that the IDC study posted on the HP web site admitted that IA64 would cost HP about 30% of its enterprise installed base. That is not a small number. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:32:02 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: >> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=operating_systems&articleId=290258&taxonomyId=89&intsrc=kc_top >> > > Didn't I hear that Cerner had gotten HP to agree to continue to sell > Alpha systems to Cerner customers for a number of years to come ? > > Cerner could have done us a big favour if it had announced it would not > port to Itanium period and that unless HP ported VMS to an industry > standard platform, there was no point in porting Cerner,s apps to some > failing temporary platform. > > HP is disgusting in paying Cerner to port to HP-UX instead if getting > cerner to recompile its VMS app to that IA64 thing. > > That 10 billion porting fund was supposed to apply to VMS ISVs just as > much as HP-UX and Tandem. Looks like HP is truly letting VMS exist > without any strategic investment until VMS becomes unprofitable. And you're newly surprised by this ? -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:41:10 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > I've also been told by the ISVs that HP has come to them - at the > prompting of the OpenVMS user base - pushing Itanium and UX, not > OpenVMS. Now that is an interesting statement. Has HP actually mentioned the name of one VMS customer that has made this request? I'm thinking that they would have a hard time coming up with even one name. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 02:42:02 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On 26 Apr, 14:34, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: > In article <1177583349.584409.191...@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: > > >In reality the SuperDome memory bandwidth is probably not a > >constraining issue for applications like Cerner which do require good > >memory bandwidth but not the full capacity of a SuperDome. > > >It is highly likely that current Cerner customers if they are maxing > >out GS1280's are doing so because they are running out of CPU > >capacity, the 1.3Ghz CPU's in the GS1280 are no longer very > >competitive in terms of Integer performance, as an example the latest > >Itaniums are at least 2x as fast. > > What I've been told is, that the CPUs are NOT (yet) maxed out, but the > alignment fault penalties on the Itanics are killing (CERNER and others). > So, it is (still) a memory issue (and the Alpha is still better there). > Missalignment is an issue for most architectures including Itanium. There is a wealth of detailed information on how to avoid or mitigate against these penalties on Itanium from HP, Microsoft and Intel. My guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do this on Itanium. http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa290049(VS.71).aspx A similar alignment problem particularly with Cobol programs impacted applications that were migrated from VAX to early Alpha processors. Regards Andrew ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 06:07:40 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177679260.627520.87920@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On 26 Apr, 16:33, Dave Harrold wrote: > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > > In article <1177583349.584409.191...@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: > >> In reality the SuperDome memory bandwidth is probably not a > >> constraining issue for applications like Cerner which do require good > >> memory bandwidth but not the full capacity of a SuperDome. > > >> It is highly likely that current Cerner customers if they are maxing > >> out GS1280's are doing so because they are running out of CPU > >> capacity, the 1.3Ghz CPU's in the GS1280 are no longer very > >> competitive in terms of Integer performance, as an example the latest > >> Itaniums are at least 2x as fast. > > > What I've been told is, that the CPUs are NOT (yet) maxed out, but the > > alignment fault penalties on the Itanics are killing (CERNER and others). > > So, it is (still) a memory issue (and the Alpha is still better there). > > > So, statement vs. statement. What is real? > > We'll never know. Cerner will not run in an Integrity server > environment to be able to do the comparison. > > Benchmark numbers (for whatever they are worth) seem to suggest that a > 32 core Integrity server will perform as well as or better than a 32 CPU > GS1280 in the environment. Currently, that's nothing to get too excited > about, but as Integrity is going forward and AlphaServers are not.... > The SPECfp_rate performance for a 128 CPU SuperDome is over 2x the performance of a 64 CPU GS1280 so it is clear that on a memory intensive benchmark like SPECfp that the Itanium can out perform the EV7z in the GS1280. However at 128 CPU's the SuperDome is about 70% efficient that is to say it gets about 70% of the throughput you would expect to get by multiplying the single CPU SPECfp_rate performance by in this case 128. Using this measure the GS1280 is exceptionally efficient 97% all be it with half the number of CPU's. The 70% scalability is not necessarily a generic Itanium issue, the SGI Altix with the same Itanium CPU's shows a 87% scalability at 128 CPU's which incidentally is better than the IBM Power5+ P595 which does 84% at 64 CPU's. In fact at 64 CPU's the Altix scales at 94% almost as well as the GS1280. Regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 04:24:47 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177586687.427506.46920@s33g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 24, 5:49 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: > >http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBas... > > Didn't I hear that Cerner had gotten HP to agree to continue to sell > Alpha systems to Cerner customers for a number of years to come ? > > Cerner could have done us a big favour if it had announced it would not > port to Itanium period and that unless HP ported VMS to an industry > standard platform, there was no point in porting Cerner,s apps to some > failing temporary platform. > > HP is disgusting in paying Cerner to port to HP-UX instead if getting > cerner to recompile its VMS app to that IA64 thing. > > That 10 billion porting fund was supposed to apply to VMS ISVs just as > much as HP-UX and Tandem. Looks like HP is truly letting VMS exist > without any strategic investment until VMS becomes unprofitable. > If it is true that Cerner is moving to AIX, I'll bet a week's pay that IBM is behind the scenes with free stuff to sweeten the deal. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 20:44:43 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <46310f3b$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <59bv1mF2k6k0sU1@mid.individual.net>, Dave Harrold writes: >Benchmark numbers (for whatever they are worth) seem to suggest that a >32 core Integrity server will perform as well as or better than a 32 CPU >GS1280 in the environment. Currently, that's nothing to get too excited >about, but as Integrity is going forward and AlphaServers are not.... Yup. Indeed. Integrity is going forward and AlphaServers are not. Too bad that the software (and cerner is not the only one) doesn't follow... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 02:49:05 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177667345.797948.90170@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On 26 Apr, 16:15, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:26:20 -0700, Larry Kilgallen > > wrote: > > In article <4630c67...@news.langstoeger.at>, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter > > 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > >> What I've been told is, that the CPUs are NOT (yet) maxed out, but the > >> alignment fault penalties on the Itanics are killing (CERNER and > >> others). > >> So, it is (still) a memory issue (and the Alpha is still better there). > > > No, it is a software flaw. The software from Alpha was not adequately > > converted to Itanium. Converting to a new architecture involves making > > changes required by the new architecture. In the case of Itanium that > > means avoiding alignment faults. > > I would argue that it is a design flaw of the cpu. > > All architectures run code with unaligned access slower than code which is aligned and since in general these differences can be 2-3x it is always worth trying to mitigate against the penalties of having unaligned code. The issue with Itanium seems to be that at least for some code it is much much worse than 2-3x slower if the code is unaligned. Regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 04:24:22 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177673062.481888.289300@u32g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On 27 Apr, 10:49, Andrew wrote: > On 26 Apr, 16:15, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:26:20 -0700, Larry Kilgallen > > > wrote: > > > In article <4630c67...@news.langstoeger.at>, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter > > > 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > >> What I've been told is, that the CPUs are NOT (yet) maxed out, but the > > >> alignment fault penalties on the Itanics are killing (CERNER and > > >> others). > > >> So, it is (still) a memory issue (and the Alpha is still better there). > > > > No, it is a software flaw. The software from Alpha was not adequately > > > converted to Itanium. Converting to a new architecture involves making > > > changes required by the new architecture. In the case of Itanium that > > > means avoiding alignment faults. > > > I would argue that it is a design flaw of the cpu. > > All architectures run code with unaligned access slower than code > which is aligned and since in general these differences can be 2-3x it > is always worth trying to mitigate against the penalties of having > unaligned code. > > The issue with Itanium seems to be that at least for some code it is > much much worse than 2-3x slower if the code is unaligned. > > Regards > Andrew Harrison- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - How much of the "much worse" with VMS on Itanium is due to the underlying hardware (memory access being slower on Integrity than on Alpha) and how much is it to do with the locks that are taken out that block memory operations during non-aligned data operations? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 13:57:38 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <59edqiF2k4pgiU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: > > My > guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do > this on Itanium. Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into consideration the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:21:58 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:57:38 -0700, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > Andrew writes: >> >> My >> guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do >> this on Itanium. > > Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into consideration > the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? > This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated > and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. > > bill > Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack of PL/I and that is about 230 systems. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 14:57:10 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <59eha6F2kf2dnU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:57:38 -0700, Bill Gunshannon > wrote: > >> In article <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >> Andrew writes: >>> >>> My >>> guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do >>> this on Itanium. >> >> Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into consideration >> the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? >> This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated >> and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. >> > Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack of > PL/I and that is about 230 systems. Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough current business or future business to justify the work needed to port the compiler? Same justification Cerner is probably using for their decision. And does HP management care enough to do anything about it. Sorry, rhetorical question. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:00:16 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <1177686016.621145.15630@r35g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On 27 Apr, 14:57, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1177666922.680728.246...@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, > Andrew writes: > > > > > My > > guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do > > this on Itanium. > > Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into consideration > the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? > This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated > and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. > To be fair to HP Cerner were pretty complimentary about Itanium when it came out talking about how it would offer new capabilities to OpenVMS customers. Regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:08:38 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack of > PL/I and that is about 230 systems. huh ? This Kednos company doesn't offer PL/I for itanics ? And IBM still offers PL/I for its non-mainframes ? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 15:24:46 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <59eituF2ep3ptU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1177686016.621145.15630@r35g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: > On 27 Apr, 14:57, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <1177666922.680728.246...@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >> Andrew writes: >> >> >> >> > My >> > guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do >> > this on Itanium. >> >> Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into consideration >> the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? >> This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated >> and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. >> > > To be fair to HP Cerner were pretty complimentary about Itanium when > it came out talking about how it would offer new capabilities to > OpenVMS customers. What does fair have to do with it? When Itanium came out Cerner was probably willing to believe the hype about Itaniums' and VMS's future. Now that a considerable amount of time has passed the improbability of any of it has become more apparent and when it comes right down to it, they have a responsibility to their sahreholders to protect the value of their stock and if that means not flushing money down the toilet, well, it's nice to see at least one corporation with the fiscal respons- ibility to just say no. It's a shame that this will have the effect of further eroding VMS's penettration int he market, but that's not Cerner's fault or responsibility. We do know who's fault or responsibility it is. Or need I remind people that long after it had lost influence in academia I had continued to push VMS here. Until, that is, it became so totally irrelevant that even given the minimal effort it took I could not get anyone to use it and was eventually told the machines were no longer needed or desired. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:09:04 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:00:16 -0700, Andrew wrote: > On 27 Apr, 14:57, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <1177666922.680728.246...@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >> Andrew writes: >> >> >> >> > My >> > guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do >> > this on Itanium. >> >> Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into consideration >> the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? >> This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated >> and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. >> > > To be fair to HP Cerner were pretty complimentary about Itanium when > it came out talking about how it would offer new capabilities to > OpenVMS customers. It is pretty common practice as I have observed over the past 40 years that vendors often write the script for their testimonial customers when bringing out a new product. > > Regards > Andrew Harrison > > > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:11:26 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:57:10 -0700, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > "Tom Linden" writes: >> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:57:38 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >> wrote: >> >>> In article <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >>> Andrew writes: >>>> >>>> My >>>> guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do >>>> this on Itanium. >>> >>> Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into >>> consideration >>> the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? >>> This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated >>> and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. >>> >> Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack >> of >> PL/I and that is about 230 systems. > > Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of > a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough > current business or future business to justify the work needed to port > the compiler? Same justification Cerner is probably using for their > decision. And does HP management care enough to do anything about it. > Sorry, rhetorical question. There is plenty of business, and it doesn't cost HP anything for us to hook up the compiler to a later version of GEM, other than business acumen. > bill > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:12:43 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:08:38 -0700, Michael Kraemer wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > > writes: >> Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack >> of >> PL/I and that is about 230 systems. > > huh ? > This Kednos company doesn't offer PL/I for itanics ? No not yet. > And IBM still offers PL/I for its non-mainframes ? Windows, AIX and A-series -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 15:31:56 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <59ejbcF2ep3ptU2@mid.individual.net> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:57:10 -0700, Bill Gunshannon > wrote: > >> In article , >> "Tom Linden" writes: >>> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:57:38 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >>> wrote: >>> >>>> In article <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >>>> Andrew writes: >>>>> >>>>> My >>>>> guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to do >>>>> this on Itanium. >>>> >>>> Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into >>>> consideration >>>> the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? >>>> This is one of those things that HP management should have anticipated >>>> and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. >>>> >>> Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack >>> of >>> PL/I and that is about 230 systems. >> >> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of >> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough >> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >> the compiler? Same justification Cerner is probably using for their >> decision. And does HP management care enough to do anything about it. >> Sorry, rhetorical question. > > There is plenty of business, and it doesn't cost HP anything for us to > hook up the compiler to a later version of GEM, other than business acumen. > So then, what was the meaning of your post? Why is it that "VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for lack of PL/I"? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:23:35 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:31:56 -0700, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > "Tom Linden" writes: >> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:57:10 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >> wrote: >> >>> In article , >>> "Tom Linden" writes: >>>> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:57:38 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> In article <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >>>>> Andrew writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> My >>>>>> guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to >>>>>> do >>>>>> this on Itanium. >>>>> >>>>> Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into >>>>> consideration >>>>> the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? >>>>> This is one of those things that HP management should have >>>>> anticipated >>>>> and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. >>>>> >>>> Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for >>>> lack >>>> of >>>> PL/I and that is about 230 systems. >>> >>> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack >>> of >>> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be >>> enough >>> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >>> the compiler? Same justification Cerner is probably using for their >>> decision. And does HP management care enough to do anything about it. >>> Sorry, rhetorical question. >> >> There is plenty of business, and it doesn't cost HP anything for us to >> hook up the compiler to a later version of GEM, other than business >> acumen. >> > > So then, what was the meaning of your post? Why is it that "VW and Fiat > will likely go to IBM for lack of PL/I"? We don't own GEM. > > bill > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 15:50:35 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <59ekebF2kl576U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:31:56 -0700, Bill Gunshannon > wrote: > >> In article , >> "Tom Linden" writes: >>> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:57:10 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >>> wrote: >>> >>>> In article , >>>> "Tom Linden" writes: >>>>> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 06:57:38 -0700, Bill Gunshannon >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In article <1177666922.680728.246390@r3g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, >>>>>> Andrew writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> guess is that Cerner is not interested in putting in the effort to >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> this on Itanium. >>>>>> >>>>>> Knowing the complexity of Cerner's product and taking into >>>>>> consideration >>>>>> the dubious future of Itanium (and with it, VMS) can you blame them? >>>>>> This is one of those things that HP management should have >>>>>> anticipated >>>>>> and either didn't, or just chose to ignore. >>>>>> >>>>> Bill, that isn't all of it. VW and Fiat will likely go to IBM for >>>>> lack >>>>> of >>>>> PL/I and that is about 230 systems. >>>> >>>> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack >>>> of >>>> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be >>>> enough >>>> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >>>> the compiler? Same justification Cerner is probably using for their >>>> decision. And does HP management care enough to do anything about it. >>>> Sorry, rhetorical question. >>> >>> There is plenty of business, and it doesn't cost HP anything for us to >>> hook up the compiler to a later version of GEM, other than business >>> acumen. >>> >> >> So then, what was the meaning of your post? Why is it that "VW and Fiat >> will likely go to IBM for lack of PL/I"? > We don't own GEM. HP owns GEM, right? So it is what I said. Ball in HP's court and they dropped it, right? Knowing it will cost them major business they are not interested in doing anything to remedy the situation? And, I am assuming from your comment that VW and Fiat are both VMS users. I can't speak for Fiat as I haven't owned one in a long, long time but VW is still a pretty big company to blow off. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 11:23:16 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: In article <59eha6F2kf2dnU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of > a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough > current business or future business to justify the work needed to port > the compiler? No, that is absolutely not the case with PL/I, where I am quite familiar with the details. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 16:45:59 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <59enm7F2kdk9rU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <59eha6F2kf2dnU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of >> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough >> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >> the compiler? > > No, that is absolutely not the case with PL/I, where I am quite familiar > with the details. So then, what is the reason? Tom says, "No access to GEM". Isn't that HP's? So, knowing it will cost them major accounts like VW and Fiat, what reason could they have for not pushing for an Itanium PL/I compiler? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 17:04:03 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <59eoo3F2kdk9rU2@mid.individual.net> In article <59enm7F2kdk9rU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> In article <59eha6F2kf2dnU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack of >>> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be enough >>> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >>> the compiler? >> >> No, that is absolutely not the case with PL/I, where I am quite familiar >> with the details. > > So then, what is the reason? Tom says, "No access to GEM". Isn't that > HP's? So, knowing it will cost them major accounts like VW and Fiat, > what reason could they have for not pushing for an Itanium PL/I compiler? Let me expand on my question a bit more (Tom, feel free to jump in here as the resident expert.) What does GEM have to do with the general availability of a PL/I compiler on Itanium VMS? I see that AdaCore has an Itanium VMS Ada product and I would be willing to bet the backend isn't GEM. WHy, precisely, is PL/I not being ported to Itanium VMS? Too much work? No percieved return on investment? Technically impossible? (The last one only added for completeness, I know that isn't the case!) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:34:21 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:04:03 -0700, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <59enm7F2kdk9rU1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article , >> Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >>> In article <59eha6F2kf2dnU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu >>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> >>>> Well, I think it's all part of the same problem. Why is there a lack >>>> of >>>> a PL/I compiler? Could it be because there does not appear to be >>>> enough >>>> current business or future business to justify the work needed to port >>>> the compiler? >>> >>> No, that is absolutely not the case with PL/I, where I am quite >>> familiar >>> with the details. >> >> So then, what is the reason? Tom says, "No access to GEM". Isn't that >> HP's? So, knowing it will cost them major accounts like VW and Fiat, >> what reason could they have for not pushing for an Itanium PL/I >> compiler? > > Let me expand on my question a bit more (Tom, feel free to jump in here > as the resident expert.) > > What does GEM have to do with the general availability of a PL/I > compiler on Itanium VMS? I see that AdaCore has an Itanium VMS > Ada product and I would be willing to bet the backend isn't GEM. GEM was developed as compiler backend, like VCG, capable of supporting multiple languages, PL/I being one of them. In fact you might argue that since PL/I semantically subsumes most other languages if you can support PL/I you can support them all. In any event when PL/I was ported from the VAX to Alpha an intermediate language translator permitted mapping of n-tuples and symbol tables to that used by GEM. GEM is a retargetable code generator and was accordingly targeted to Itanium. So the version we are using is about 10 years old and antedates the Itanium work. Requests for a license to newer versions have been stonewalled. Ada uses the gnu backend. PL/I is often used in conjunction with other languages like fortran and cobol and having the ability to run a common debugger is invaluable. Using gnu would preclude that. It is exceedingly stupid to adapt PL/I to another backend which wouldn't be well integrated into VMS, particularly when there is one that already supports PL/I and requires very little effort to validate on Itanium. So, go figure. > > WHy, precisely, is PL/I not being ported to Itanium VMS? Too much > work? No percieved return on investment? Technically impossible? > (The last one only added for completeness, I know that isn't the case!) VMS management, I can only conclude, has a very different vision of reality than what our customers have. > > bill > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:36:37 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: <463153A5.FBB9E3B0@spam.comcast.net> Andrew wrote: > > On 25 Apr, 02:45, David J Dachtera wrote: > > Neil Rieck wrote: > > > > > Some of you may already be aware of this news item. > > > > > OpenVMS Apps Face Uncertain Migration Path > > > Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers > > >http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBas... > > > > I posted this comment in the article's forum: > > > > ISV Market Confusion? > > Submitted by David Dachtera on April 24, 2007 - 07:59. > > > > The statement attributed to Mike Nill, that Cerner is looking for strong > > movement toward OpenVMS-I64 in the market-at-large echoes comments to me > > from an executive at another ISV in the healthcare sector. To me this > > indicates that the ISVs are confused about where their market is found. > > > > To my mind, it would make more sense to first seek direction from the > > existing installed base which, so far - based on my participation in > > other discussion groups - is over-whelmingly pro-OpenVMS and shows > > little or no indication of a desire among the installed base to migrate > > to another platform, along with all the costs (hardware/software > > replacement, migration, retraining, etc.) and business disruption that > > brings with it. > > > > The only indication I've seen so far of a desire among the installed > > base to migrate to another platform seems to come from those sites which > > are already max.'ing out 16- and 32-CPU Alpha GS1280s. For such sites, > > I64 SuperDomes just won't cut it. > > > > Information is freely available on the 'net showing that I64 SuperDomes > > are almost 50% slower at memory access than Alpha GS1280s. Thus, with > > the end of Alpha, HP has nothing competitive to offer in the Enterprise > > computing space. > > > > If you wanted to buy a system that is closest to the GS1280 in terms > of Memory Bandwidth then the Sun M series boxes would be the most > likely choice. BTW I am joking. > > In reality the SuperDome memory bandwidth is probably not a > constraining issue for applications like Cerner which do require good > memory bandwidth but not the full capacity of a SuperDome. Well, actually, yes it is. In high CPU count, large RAM configurations, memory access is uniformly slower than Alpha. Therefore, it is reasonable to expect that an I64 SuperDome will underperform compare dto its similarly configure Alpha counterpart. > It is highly likely that current Cerner customers if they are maxing > out GS1280's are doing so because they are running out of CPU > capacity, the 1.3Ghz CPU's in the GS1280 are no longer very > competitive in terms of Integer performance, as an example the latest > Itaniums are at least 2x as fast. ...but are memory access time constrained, resulting in a new reduction in performance. > > I've also been told by the ISVs that HP has come to them - at the > > prompting of the OpenVMS user base - pushing Itanium and UX, not > > OpenVMS. The trouble there is that since HP has nothing competitive to > > offer in the Enterprise computing space as we just saw HP becomes "just > > another UN*X vendor" with nothing to differentiate them in the market. > > > > Thus, the incentive to stay with HP is greatly diminished, given that > > offerings from other vendors outperform Alpha EV7z by almost three to > > one, while I64 SuperDomes cannot out-perform Alpha EV7z. > > > > In pure memory bandwidth terms the SuperDomes do not outperform the > GS1280, however the Itaniums do provide more Interger and FP > performance than the EV7z . However, the inability to get data into and out of the CPU faster than Alpha reduces the overall net performance to lower than Alpha. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:33:28 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: Neil Rieck wrote: > On Apr 24, 5:49 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> Neil Rieck wrote: >>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBas... >> Didn't I hear that Cerner had gotten HP to agree to continue to sell >> Alpha systems to Cerner customers for a number of years to come ? >> >> Cerner could have done us a big favour if it had announced it would not >> port to Itanium period and that unless HP ported VMS to an industry >> standard platform, there was no point in porting Cerner,s apps to some >> failing temporary platform. >> >> HP is disgusting in paying Cerner to port to HP-UX instead if getting >> cerner to recompile its VMS app to that IA64 thing. >> >> That 10 billion porting fund was supposed to apply to VMS ISVs just as >> much as HP-UX and Tandem. Looks like HP is truly letting VMS exist >> without any strategic investment until VMS becomes unprofitable. >> > > If it is true that Cerner is moving to AIX, I'll bet a week's pay that > IBM is behind the scenes with free stuff to sweeten the deal. That's called promoting your product. It's what you do if you want your product to succeed. Not doing so sort of indicates that product success is not of significant interest. > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > > -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:40:24 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-basedservers Ita Message-ID: <46315488.913D8FFC@spam.comcast.net> Dave Harrold wrote: > > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > > In article <1177583349.584409.191080@c18g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: > >> In reality the SuperDome memory bandwidth is probably not a > >> constraining issue for applications like Cerner which do require good > >> memory bandwidth but not the full capacity of a SuperDome. > >> > >> It is highly likely that current Cerner customers if they are maxing > >> out GS1280's are doing so because they are running out of CPU > >> capacity, the 1.3Ghz CPU's in the GS1280 are no longer very > >> competitive in terms of Integer performance, as an example the latest > >> Itaniums are at least 2x as fast. > > > > What I've been told is, that the CPUs are NOT (yet) maxed out, but the > > alignment fault penalties on the Itanics are killing (CERNER and others). > > So, it is (still) a memory issue (and the Alpha is still better there). > > > > So, statement vs. statement. What is real? > > > We'll never know. Cerner will not run in an Integrity server > environment to be able to do the comparison. > > Benchmark numbers (for whatever they are worth) seem to suggest that a > 32 core Integrity server will perform as well as or better than a 32 CPU > GS1280 in the environment. Currently, that's nothing to get too excited > about, but as Integrity is going forward and AlphaServers are not.... On the other hand, the Healthcare ISVs are -NOT- going forward on I64. That leaves non-HP as the only viable option. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 02:56:20 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: Dirk Munk wrote: ... >> It also claims that the neocons wanted to take out Iraq and used 9/11 >> as an excuse to do so. This meant that the Bush administration needed >> to constantly sell the war to the American public through the media. > > What is new about that? This 'theory' has been common knowledge for a > couple of years now Rather like for this entire decade (not counting major earlier clues). And it's documented fact, not a 'theory'. In early 1992 Paul Wolfowitz (Undersecretary of Defense for Policy reporting to Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney) and his deputy Scooter Libby wrote a "Defense Planning Guidance" paper that became the cornerstone of the Bush II administration's policy. This document was leaked to the NYT within a month (Google up "U.S. Strategy Plan Calls For Insuring No Rivals Develop" and/or see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine); Bush I found it far too imperialistic for his taste and ordered it significantly watered-down for its formal release that April. This "Wolfowitz Doctrine", while not IIRC explicitly supporting another invasion of Iraq, was a clear reaction by Wolfowitz to Bush I's failure to press on to Baghdad in Gulf War I - even though Wolfowitz had apparently supported this decision only one year earlier. It advocated unilateral, preemptive use of force as one principal component of a 'muscular' foreign policy. In 1997 the "Project for the New American Century" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century will get you off to a good start) was created by a group of neo-conservatives (including those already mentioned). Its guiding principles were lifted from the Wolfowitz Doctrine. In 1998 PNAC members sent a letter to President Clinton urging him to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq. In 2000 they issued the paper "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which included in Chapter V ("Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force") the memorable observation that "the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor" - a sentiment that the Bush II administration clearly made full use of a year later. Immediately after 9/11, Bush II asked for evidence that Iraq was behind the event. When none ever appeared, he and (even more so) Cheney attempted to imply this connection in their public statements even while (at least in Bush's case) occasionally admitting when directly questioned that there was no backing for it whatsoever. That story is perhaps better-known than the earlier circumstances described above that led to it. > (at least in countries with a free press). Hey, we've got a free press: it supports the government line due to the 'enlightened self-interest' of its private owners, not because of any substantive government coercion. True, that's not exactly what our founding fathers envisioned... And that free press even covers most sides of most issues, if you look hard enough. It's just that most Americans don't: they're doing well if they even read the front page, preferring to get their 'news' (I won't dignify it by calling it 'information') from the tube. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 04:25:43 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <4630558f$0$6303$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Dan O'Reilly" wrote in message news:6.1.2.0.2.20070425221238.0760c5f0@192.168.0.11... > ..and, of course, EVERYTHING PBS broadcasts is always done with absolutely > no agenda - particularly by the likes of Bill Moyer, etc... > > But then again, we all know that George Bush is evil, Dick Cheney is evil, > Bush conspired to have the US government create 9/11, and, of course, we > all know that even though the UN, virtually every EU country, Australia, > Japan, etc, etc, etc, all said the exact same thing - using THEIR OWN > INTELLIGENCE, only Bush was lying about it...oh, yeah, and that the US > media and the likes of the BBC have absolutely no political agenda, let > alone a well-documented left-leaning one. > > Oh, you poor misinformed robots...but arguing with people like you is like > hitting your head on a brick wall - it feels so good when you stop. > I started this thread as a reply to Bob's "Democrats destroying America". In fact, one political party is no better than another (in the long run) and people who only support one over the other are on their way to getting something resembling Germany in the 1930s. But I digress... Whether you agree with the PBS program's political facts or not, I still stand by my original thesis (from months back) that money can either be used either constructively or destructively. US$1 Trillion is a lot of money and I can only imagine what the world would look like if this money would have been used for building more universities, a better internet, or properly restarting the manned space program. p.s. Financial pressures from the war in Vietnam played a role in killing off the Apollo program. Even though the Bush Administration has told NASA to plan to go back to the moon, I feel that financial pressures from the Iraq war will either kill or delay "The Constellation Project" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Constellation This only means that future Bush/Republican supporters in the future will be able to blame congress when NASA funds are cut. NSR -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:31:09 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <4631d29d$0$16261$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Dan O'Reilly" wrote in message news:6.1.2.0.2.20070426222249.02fb0350@192.168.0.11... > At 08:05 PM 4/26/2007, David J Dachtera wrote: >>Dan O'Reilly wrote: >> > [snip] >> >>Aw, Dan! I alway had such respect for you as a technical person... > > Well, let me put it this way: I come from a military family. My > son-in-law, a sergeant in the Army (the father of my grandchildren), is > getting ready to deploy to Iraq for his second year-long tour there. I'll > tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what they're doing. And > I'll tell you another secret: what's going on in Iraq isn't what is being > reported by the likes of PBS and Bill Moyers - or NBC, CBS or ABC, for > that matter. And one more secret: these kids hate what they see being > reported by the media in general, realizing that the media simply isn't > telling the whole story or even a correct one. The left of the world has > such blinding, unreasoning, vitriolic hate for Bush that they never let > little things like the facts get in their way. This whole BS of "I > support the troops but not the mission" is exactly that: BS. Or put > another way: "I support fireman, just not them putting out a fire" - just > as ridiculous a statement. > > Do I wish my son-in-law didn't have to go back in harm's way? Sure I do - > but I'm as proud of him as I can be. Do I agree with everything the Bush > administration has done? No, I don't. But I believe in what we're doing, > and I believe in my country. That's good enough for me. Whether or not > anybody else believes as I do is immaterial, and is a personal choice > everybody is allowed to make. > Yesterday a good friend of mine told me that his son will soon be deployed with other Canadians in Afghanistan. Although there have been more than a dozen Canadians killed in the past 12 months, Afghanistan is still not as dangerous as Iraq. This guy is sick with worry that is son will be put in harm's way for no good reason and only wants the war to end. (like all young people, this guy's son sees this as an opportunity for adventure) What ever your political beliefs, we now know that the governments and general population of both Afghanistan and Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack on New York. After all, 16 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi nationals. Now there are extremists in every society on the planet and I'm not saying we should attack any country where extremists live. This would be as dumb as attacking California only for the reason that Oakland is the home of the Hell's Angels. 1) But US$1 Trillion dollars is a lot of money. 2) You've lost over 3,200 soldiers already. 3) You've got over 75,000 soldiers who are injured and/or maimed. The current price tag it too high. Especially since I'm convinced that democracy is impossible in countries where the general population is OK with a theocracy. Time to bring all our troops home. NSR -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 04:46:34 -0700 From: geezer Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <1177674394.283224.30270@t38g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Apr 27, 12:34 am, Dan O'Reilly wrote: > Do I wish my son-in-law didn't have to go back in harm's way? Sure I do - > but I'm as proud of him as I can be. Do I agree with everything the Bush > administration has done? No, I don't. But I believe in what we're doing, > and I believe in my country. That's good enough for me. Whether or not > anybody else believes as I do is immaterial, and is a personal choice > everybody is allowed to make. > I beleive they call that blind patriotism. I'm proud of all of my kids as well. That doesn't mean I want to see them marched off the end of a pier. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:58:39 -0400 From: "Ken Farmer" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <46320fa1$0$16696$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> Dan, A special thanks for your son-in-law's and daugther's service to the country. I have a son in the Marine Corp who's been in Ramadi, Iraq for 9 months. He's coming home in 2 weeks! :) Ken __________________________________ Kenneth R. Farmer < 336-736-7376 "Dan O'Reilly" wrote in message news:6.1.2.0.2.20070426222249.02fb0350@192.168.0.11... > At 08:05 PM 4/26/2007, David J Dachtera wrote: >>Dan O'Reilly wrote: >> > [snip] >> >>Aw, Dan! I alway had such respect for you as a technical person... > > Well, let me put it this way: I come from a military family. My > son-in-law, a sergeant in the Army (the father of my grandchildren), is > getting ready to deploy to Iraq for his second year-long tour there. I'll > tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what they're doing. And > I'll tell you another secret: what's going on in Iraq isn't what is being > reported by the likes of PBS and Bill Moyers - or NBC, CBS or ABC, for > that matter. And one more secret: these kids hate what they see being > reported by the media in general, realizing that the media simply isn't > telling the whole story or even a correct one. The left of the world has > such blinding, unreasoning, vitriolic hate for Bush that they never let > little things like the facts get in their way. This whole BS of "I > support the troops but not the mission" is exactly that: BS. Or put > another way: "I support fireman, just not them putting out a fire" - just > as ridiculous a statement. > > Do I wish my son-in-law didn't have to go back in harm's way? Sure I do - > but I'm as proud of him as I can be. Do I agree with everything the Bush > administration has done? No, I don't. But I believe in what we're doing, > and I believe in my country. That's good enough for me. Whether or not > anybody else believes as I do is immaterial, and is a personal choice > everybody is allowed to make. > > But given that this is a VMS group, I'll not say anything more on this, > nor will I respond to any posts on this subject. This isn't a place for > politics, it's a technical forum. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:47:53 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: Dan O'Reilly wrote: ... > I'll tell you a secret: these young kids believe in what they're doing. As with most generalizations, that's flat-out wrong. I don't know exactly what percentage believe in what they're doing (many reports indicate that it's a rather low one, which would hardly be surprising), but one need only visit sites like http://www.ivaw.org/ and http://www.vaiw.org to see that at least a significant number believe nothing exactly the opposite. It's probably safe to say that a majority think that there's no real reason they should be where they are, even if they're willing to suck it up and do their jobs. > And I'll tell you another secret: what's going on in Iraq isn't what is > being reported by the likes of PBS and Bill Moyers - or NBC, CBS or ABC, > for that matter. Indeed, all our media sanitize the situation and fail to raise anything like the criticism that it merits. Foreign media are a much more reliable source. And one more secret: these kids hate what they see > being reported by the media in general, realizing that the media simply > isn't telling the whole story or even a correct one. True, but not in the manner that you'd like us to believe. The left of the > world has such blinding, unreasoning, vitriolic hate for Bush that they > never let little things like the facts get in their way. I don't hate Bush, I just wish he'd get the same justice that Saddam did - for the good of our country, and the good of the world. Capital punishment for homicidally-out-of-control world leaders is one of the few instances in which I think that it might be justifiable for its value as a deterrent (IMO most capital crimes aren't very deterrable by that threat, but this one just might be). This whole BS > of "I support the troops but not the mission" is exactly that: BS. Not true: it's certainly possible to wish the troops well while still believing that they should be brought home. It's even possible to support better funding for their protection while they're in the process of leaving while simultaneously opposing the expenditure of one more cent on having them stay there. I'm afraid that I personally can't bring myself to do that, though. I support our troops in Iraq no more than I supported the Soviet troops who were illegally occupying Afghanistan in the '80s: in both cases, the appropriate consequence of their being where they shouldn't be is to have the shit kicked out of them until they're evicted (and it's really a shame that no one had the balls to give the Iraqis a few truckloads of Stinger missiles this time around). Just to make it clear, that doesn't mean that I hate the troops, either, especially since, unlike Bush and his fellow criminals, the vast majority of them haven't engaged in illegal and reprehensible conduct. Bush has placed them in an even more untenable position than our Vietnam troops were in, and it is tragic on a personal level for kids who don't have the sense or courage to refuse to serve in such an illegal and immoral endeavor. But given that something like 100 Iraqis are being killed for every one of our troops (and the rest of the occupants of Iraq are suffering great hardship due to their presence) I can't spare more than about 1% of my sympathy for them: not berating them as they return home is about the most that I can manage at the moment (most of them don't *mean* to be murderers, after all: it's just the position they've been placed in by our government), though after the occupation is over and we have begun paying reparations that allow Iraq to be rebuilt I will probably be able to summon up a lot more compassion, just as occurred after Vietnam. Or > put another way: "I support fireman, just not them putting out a fire" - > just as ridiculous a statement. Some fires should not be put out, and the firemen should just be sent back to the station. That doesn't mean that the firemen themselves aren't still worthy of support: it just means that sometimes their efforts can be misapplied. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:31:28 -0700 From: "Malcolm Dunnett" Subject: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: <463232e0$1@flight> "Neil Rieck" wrote in message news:4631d29d$0$16261$88260bb3@free.teranews.com... > What ever your political beliefs, we now know that the governments and > general population of both Afghanistan and Iraq had nothing to do with the > 9/11 attack on New York. After all, 16 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi > nationals. You mean they weren't all Canadians? Isn't that why the US is so determined to make it difficult for us to get across the border? :-) I don't believe your statement is true in the case of Afghanistan - weren't the Taliban openly supporting Al-Quaeda training camps and hailing Osama as a hero? I'm not convinced that Iraq had much if anything to do with the terrorist attacks, for the simple reason that it wasn't in Saddam's best interests to support a group whose goal is an Islamist theocracy, and I don't believe Saddam would have ever done anything that wasn't good for Saddam. We know that (with US support) he invaded Iran not too long after the revolution, he certainly wasn't going to be in the Ayatollah's good books. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:07:14 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: John Santos wrote: > Farrell, Michael wrote: >> There is a "DEL/NOLOG ". >> We use it all the time. > $ del/nolog dhdjjshhdskh.sdhhsj;* > %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for > $1$DIA20:[JOHN]DHDJJSHHDSKH.SDHHSJ;* > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > >> >> I just save, switch off and restore error reporting around deletes and >> purges that I _know_ could cause confusing errors. Had there been a ' >> DEL /NOLOG' I would have used it. >> The point is: it is NOT DELETE writing an error message, but it is DCL writing the error message as a result of DELETE's return status. What the OP really asks for is to add a switch to the DELETE command like /SUCCESS_ALWAYS. Who does really want that ? DCL provides a (THE) clean way via SET MESSAGE or an "if f$search..." clause, and not using it is no excuse for programmer lazyness ! -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:16:47 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: RE: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:37:01 UTC, "Farrell, Michael" wrote: > There is a "DEL/NOLOG ". > > We use it all the time. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Weatherall [mailto:djw-nothere@nospam.nohow] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:01 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:36:29 UTC, BaxterD@tessco.com wrote: > > > I have a very complex End-of-Day process which is primarily DCL > > scripts. I also have a (very simplistic) error checking job which > > examines the process log files for errors. > > The biggest nuisance I have to deal with is error and warning > > messages generated by general "Delete" and "Purge" commands, (with or > > without wildcards), when the target file(s) are not found. > > I know that I can get rid of these messages by doing a > > conditional delete (i.e. if f$search("filename") .nes. "") or by > > turning off messaging, however the first option requires a lot of > > extra code to do the condition checking, and the second option is to > > generic. > > > > What would be really nice would be a qualifier which would allow > > this to be turned of selectively, and stop the program from generating > > the messages. I am thinking of something like > > > > $ Delete/Suppress > > > > which would suppress any errors or warnings for that specific command > > execution. /NoSuppress could be the default, and it could be made > > available for most DCL commands, but specifically (to meet my needs) > > for Delete and Purge. > > > > Anyone else like the idea (Are you listening Guy Peleg!!) > > I just save, switch off and restore error reporting around deletes and > purges that I _know_ could cause confusing errors. Had there been a ' > DEL /NOLOG' I would have used it. > > This is from memory and probably wrong :- > > $ message_save = f$environment ("message") > $ set mess /nofac /notext /nosev/noid > $ delete stuff > $ ! optional status checking to catch _unexpected_ errors > $ set mess 'message_save' Really? When did that come in? I can't remember the last time I did HELP DELETE. In my defence, I have to point out that the above snippet was first used about the VMS 3.7 (IIRC) time-frame when converting RSX-11M .CMD files to .COM. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:18:56 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: <4ccYh.4393$nR1.3396@trnddc06> Farrell, Michael wrote: > There is a "DEL/NOLOG ". > > We use it all the time. $ del/nolog dhdjjshhdskh.sdhhsj;* %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for $1$DIA20:[JOHN]DHDJJSHHDSKH.SDHHSJ;* -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Weatherall [mailto:djw-nothere@nospam.nohow] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:01 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. > > On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:36:29 UTC, BaxterD@tessco.com wrote: > > >> I have a very complex End-of-Day process which is primarily DCL >>scripts. I also have a (very simplistic) error checking job which >>examines the process log files for errors. >> The biggest nuisance I have to deal with is error and warning >>messages generated by general "Delete" and "Purge" commands, (with or >>without wildcards), when the target file(s) are not found. >> I know that I can get rid of these messages by doing a >>conditional delete (i.e. if f$search("filename") .nes. "") or by >>turning off messaging, however the first option requires a lot of >>extra code to do the condition checking, and the second option is to >>generic. >> >> What would be really nice would be a qualifier which would allow >>this to be turned of selectively, and stop the program from generating >>the messages. I am thinking of something like >> >>$ Delete/Suppress >> >>which would suppress any errors or warnings for that specific command >>execution. /NoSuppress could be the default, and it could be made >>available for most DCL commands, but specifically (to meet my needs) >>for Delete and Purge. >> >>Anyone else like the idea (Are you listening Guy Peleg!!) > > > I just save, switch off and restore error reporting around deletes and > purges that I _know_ could cause confusing errors. Had there been a ' > DEL /NOLOG' I would have used it. > > This is from memory and probably wrong :- > > $ message_save = f$environment ("message") > $ set mess /nofac /notext /nosev/noid > $ delete stuff > $ ! optional status checking to catch _unexpected_ errors > $ set mess 'message_save' > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:16:48 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:18:56 UTC, John Santos wrote: > Farrell, Michael wrote: > > There is a "DEL/NOLOG ". > > > > We use it all the time. > > $ del/nolog dhdjjshhdskh.sdhhsj;* > %DELETE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for $1$DIA20:[JOHN]DHDJJSHHDSKH.SDHHSJ;* > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found AHA! Now I remember. That's _exactly_ the one that :- $ message_save = f$environment ("message") $ set mess /nofac /notext /nosev/noid $ delete stuff $ ! optional status checking to catch _unexpected_ errors $ set mess 'message_save' was meant to suppress while I was tidying up. In the case when the temp files hadn't been created. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:16:51 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 00:39:47 UTC, Jeff Cameron wrote: > Another question from the Roaming Paleocybernetic Administrator, > > Now that I have my memory pool problems behind me, I have another task to > which I need to solicit the help from all of you wonderful folks with > PDP-11/RSX experience. > > I have a task to write a program to make small changes to a binary table > stored in an RMS fixed record, sequential access file on a PDP-11 Running > RSX-11M-Plus V4.6. The available languages are Macro-11 and FORTRAN 77 (I > choose the latter). If I were on a VMS system, I would use the $CRMPSC > System Service to map the file into my programs memory space. I believe > there is a similar service in RSX, but I cannot seem to find it in the > documentation. > > Does anyone have a FORTRAN example of doing this in RSX, or if not can > anyone point me to the location of the documentation for the equivalent > system service in RSX. > If necessary, I can do direct reads and writes, but I would prefer not to. > > Thanks in Advance > Jeff Cameron A long time ago and my RSX books went to the bin before Xmas when we moved sites. I hadn't needed to look in them for nearly 8 years. I knew a question would come up:-) ISTR that if RMS-11 (Bill Todd?) were installed on the RSX11M+ machine, then F77 ISAM access should be able to talk to the file directly. Or is this a much 'higher' level of RMS file. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:17:37 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Message-ID: In article , Jeff Cameron writes: > Another question from the Roaming Paleocybernetic Administrator, > > Now that I have my memory pool problems behind me, I have another task to > which I need to solicit the help from all of you wonderful folks with > PDP-11/RSX experience. > > I have a task to write a program to make small changes to a binary table > stored in an RMS fixed record, sequential access file on a PDP-11 Running > RSX-11M-Plus V4.6. The available languages are Macro-11 and FORTRAN 77 (I > choose the latter). If I were on a VMS system, I would use the $CRMPSC > System Service to map the file into my programs memory space. I believe > there is a similar service in RSX, but I cannot seem to find it in the > documentation. Why kill yourself? Why not just open the file with Fortran direct access, read the record, make the change, and rewrite the record? The guys who wrote the Fortran OTS did all the work for you. Set up the buffering large enough in the OPEN statement and the thing will fly. If you map the file into memory you have to work around all the meta-data RSX uses to track records in a fixed record sequential access file. This is a whole lot easier than other record formats but I don't see the justification. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:30:01 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Message-ID: Jeff Cameron wrote: > Another question from the Roaming Paleocybernetic Administrator, > > Now that I have my memory pool problems behind me, I have another task to > which I need to solicit the help from all of you wonderful folks with > PDP-11/RSX experience. > > I have a task to write a program to make small changes to a binary table > stored in an RMS fixed record, sequential access file on a PDP-11 Running > RSX-11M-Plus V4.6. The available languages are Macro-11 and FORTRAN 77 (I > choose the latter). If I were on a VMS system, I would use the $CRMPSC > System Service to map the file into my programs memory space. I believe > there is a similar service in RSX, but I cannot seem to find it in the > documentation. > > Does anyone have a FORTRAN example of doing this in RSX, or if not can > anyone point me to the location of the documentation for the equivalent > system service in RSX. > If necessary, I can do direct reads and writes, but I would prefer not to. > > Thanks in Advance > Jeff Cameron > Although my RSX experience is almost 20 years past, I'm sure no, there is no equivalent to VMS (or Unix) memory to file mapping: PDP/RSX is not a virtual memory system ! (and overlays are no exception: they are part of the run-time system, and do explicit file I/O behind the scene, nothing like VMS paging). One possibility though similar to a disk-based section is to use "common regions": they can be installed in memory from a file, attached and mapped by programs, and written back to the file (explicitly or at uninstall time). Programs have to reserve one (or more) of the 8 (16 in RSX11M+, supervisor mode) available address pages (APRs) through a TKB option. At run-time the program can map the pages (a COMMON in Fortran) as needed page by page (a Fortran program probably has not too many of them available !). Unfortunatly I have not saved my RSX programs in an accessible way (8-track tapes :-), You have to look into the RSX manuals for "common regions" and the system service calls to use them. Some of the relevant macro calls are: atrg$s attach to a common region craw$s create address window map$s map address window to attached region And the TKB option to reserve a specific APR range for the region: VSECT=MYCOM:140000:40000 ;common /MYCOM/ is 8 K words COMMON=MYCOM:RW:6 -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:30:35 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: PDP/RSX FORTRAN 77 example to map a file to memory Message-ID: Joseph Huber wrote: > One possibility though similar to a disk-based section is to use "common > regions": they can be installed in memory from a file, attached and > mapped by programs, and written back to the file (explicitly or at > uninstall time). Ah no, I have to correct myself: I was mixing in my memory "common regions" and shared/installed commons (or shared libraries) in RSX. Shared commons are file-based, but must be task files (built by TKB), including task headers/psect/offsets etc. They are indeed read in memory when installed, and written back when updated, just as in VMS. But for an existing file of binary data, this is not appropriate. On the other hand, common regions are more like VMS global sections without a disk-file (page-file sections or page-frame sections): after creation they have to be filled with data by programs, one has to program file-reading and -writing explicitly. So I think the only option is what Hein proposed: just use normal file I/O, for a fixed-length record file this should be easy on RSX in Fortran. -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 07:50:46 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Message-ID: In article <463159AF.64295149@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > That just takes getting used to not typing until the first prompt appears. I'm in too much of a hurry for that, so I write a bell to the terminal after the /inquire. When it beeps I can start typing. But only in my own login.com, not in sylogin. If sylogin does in /inquire than I just put the beep at the begining of my login.com . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:18:00 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Message-ID: <07042708180051_202002DA@antinode.org> From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > In article <463159AF.64295149@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > > > That just takes getting used to not typing until the first prompt appears. > > I'm in too much of a hurry for that, so I write a bell to the > terminal after the /inquire. When it beeps I can start typing. > But only in my own login.com, not in sylogin. If sylogin does > in /inquire than I just put the beep at the begining of my login.com > . Since about 1985, my LOGIN.COM has included (after its own SET TERM /INQU): $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT " Type ahead now." I seldom notice it unless I'm doing something on one of the antique VAXes, but it's still useful from time to time. (For various reasons, some valid, the SET TERM /INQU in SYLOGIN.COM has been disabled on some of my systems.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 08:59:51 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Message-ID: <46306a07$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <1177533706.797613.147080@o40g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, tom writes: >That means DEC_CRT, Advanced video, etc. doesn't get set. Why don't you have a look into SYSGEN (TTY_DEFCHAR and TTY_DEFCHAR2)? -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 21:02:23 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Message-ID: <463159AF.64295149@spam.comcast.net> "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > > In article <4630084E.4E2EA25C@spam.comcast.net>, > David J Dachtera writes: > > tom wrote: > >> > >> I posted this to the HP ITRC forum, but figured I'd try here as well. > >> We've been using OLD SYLOGIN.COM files on our systems, and I thought > >> we should update by using the latest template, and merge our local > >> changes into it. Anyway, I guess I'm missing something in the "set > >> terminal/inquire" logic. The old SYLOGIN used to just check for > >> unknown terminal types and whether it was DECwindows. Now, it checks > >> different terminal types (FT,TN, etc.) > >> > >> I'm coming in via either telnet (TN device), or SSH (FT) device, so > >> the "/inquire" isn't done. That means DEC_CRT, Advanced video, etc. > >> doesn't get set. I need the "set term/inquire" to set these up. Can > >> someone explain why the F$LOCATE is there? I've tried Attachmate > >> Extra, WRQ Reflection, and Hyperterminal, and they all come back with > >> a device type of "unknown" when I do a "show terminal". After a "set > >> term/inq", I get a VT Device type. > > > > You can probably just trash it if you don't need it, and just condition > > the SET TERM/INQ based on F$GETJPI( 0, "MODE" ) .EQS. "INTERACTIVE". > > That breaks the startup of many X-11 applications, or makes their output logss > noisy. INTERACTIVE doesn't seem like a proper MODE for X-11 processes. I'd have expected NETWORK or OTHER, except for DECterm. > I can not see any reason to keep track of what terminal types show up. > > I posted the following script on Nov 29, 2005 that can be used to determine if > the command file is running on a real terminal session. > > ---- > I do not normally use SET TERM/INQUIRE in login scripts. It slows down > the script This is fixed in newer VMS. > and if I type before it completes the inquiry, what I type > gets lost, and the terminal type gets set to unknown. That just takes getting used to not typing until the first prompt appears. Here's a more compact version of your code... $ is_terminal = f$getdvi("sys$command", "TRM") $ mode = f$getjpi( 0, "mode" ) ! Don't like f$mode(), no good reason $! $ if (mode .eqs. "INTERACTIVE") .and. is_terminal then - $ if f$getdvi("SYS$COMMAND", "devtype") .eq. 0 then - $ set term/inquire/line!/insert ! Uncomment if you must... > The only terminal that I have seen this algorithm not work with is with the > OPA0: device. On my VAX/VMS systems it gets set to a hardcopy terminal type > by default. I adjust it to the correct type when systartup_vms is run. ...as it should be. Actually, hardware terminal ports probably could be SET/PERM at SYSTARTUP time and bypassed in [SY]LOGIN (TTcu, TXcu, etc.) with the possible expection of modem ports, where they are still in use. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 2007 08:02:51 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Set terminal/inquire in SYLOGIN Message-ID: <4631ae2b$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <463159AF.64295149@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: >> > You can probably just trash it if you don't need it, and just condition >> > the SET TERM/INQ based on F$GETJPI( 0, "MODE" ) .EQS. "INTERACTIVE". >> >> That breaks the startup of many X-11 applications, or makes their output logss >> noisy. > >INTERACTIVE doesn't seem like a proper MODE for X-11 processes. I'd have >expected NETWORK or OTHER, except for DECterm. Now DECterm is a different beast. A DECterm consists of 2 processes. One running the terminal(emulator) in OTHER mode, and one one running *in* the terminal(emulator) in INTERACTIVE mode. If found my solution (in SYLOGIN.COM and in sysmgr LOGIN.COM and in the template for users LOGIN.COM) in the late eighties (ok, with modifications later like the TT_SECURE clause for TCPIP SSH) and it still works $!************************** Start of SYLOGIN.COM **************************** ... $ GOTO 'F$MODE()' ... $ interactive: $!============ $ IF .NOT. F$GETDVI ("SYS$COMMAND:", "TRM") THEN GOTO other $ GOSUB set_term $ GOSUB set_symbols $ GOSUB define_keys $ GOSUB set_prcnam $ GOSUB set_prompt $ GOSUB set_defprot $ GOSUB java $ GOTO common ... $ other: $!====== $ IF F$GETDVI ("SYS$COMMAND:", "TRM") THEN GOTO interactive $ GOSUB set_symbols $ GOSUB set_defprot $ GOTO common ... $ set_term: $!********* $ term = F$EXTRACT(1, 2, F$GETDVI("SYS$COMMAND", "TT_PHYDEVNAM")) $ no_inq = "OP, RT, TT, TX, TW, WT" $ IF F$LOCATE(term, no_inq) .NE. F$LENGTH(no_inq) THEN RETURN $ IF term .EQS. "FT" .AND. .NOT. F$GETDVI("SYS$COMMAND", "TT_SECURE") THEN RETURN $ IF F$GETJPI(0, "TERMINAL") .EQS. "" THEN RETURN $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "%SYLOGIN-I-HANDSOFF, Starting terminal inquiry ..." $ DEFINE/NOLOG/USER SYS$ERROR NL: $ DEFINE/NOLOG/USER SYS$OUTPUT NL: $ SET TERMINAL/INQUIRE/BROAD/LINE $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "%SYLOGIN-I-HANDSON, Terminal inquiry finished" $ RETURN ... $!*************************** End of SYLOGIN.COM ***************************** -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 2007 16:05:01 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: [OpenVMS V7.3-2] Difference between LAD0: and DAD0:? Message-ID: <4630cdad$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <462f8702$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: >With the old InfoServer support files contained in VMS one had to start > > $ @SYS$STARTUP:ESS$STARTUP DISK, TAPE Ooops. That is of course $ @SYS$STARTUP:ESS$STARTUP DISK TAPE >to get a DAD0: (disk) and a MAD0: (tape) template device. -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:13:30 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: [R]OT: Re: Neocons destroying America Message-ID: Dan O'Reilly wrote: [nothing worth reading, let alone quoting] But by renaming the previous thread, you've started a new one, and without any helpful 'OT' to distinguish it. A lot of people seem to be making an earnest effort to generate *on*-topic conversations now, and I salute them (just because they don't happen to be about technical subjects that particularly interest *me* doesn't detract from their utility). - bill ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.230 ************************