INFO-VAX Tue, 08 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 251 Contents: Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: EERP - Retirement Re: installing resident images - problem Re: installing resident images - problem Re: installing resident images - problem Re: Noahs ark found! Re: Noahs ark found! Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Re: Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Re: Slightly OT:DS10L and router compatibility Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Re: SYSMAN problem Re: SYSMAN problem tukwila hits iceberg! Re: tukwila hits iceberg! Re: tukwila hits iceberg! Re: tukwila hits iceberg! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 14:16:08 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.trysp5cgtte90l@hyrrokkin... > > Do you know PL/I? Is Cape Canaveral too far? >> Cape Canaveral is in the very northern part of Brevard County. The drive for Charlie would probably be 2.5+ hours when you figure in the time to get to I-95 from wherever he lives, and to get from I-95 to the Cape. Think of where Charlie is as the northern suburbs of Miami ;-) >> If you know of any OpenVMS jobs in the South Florida area, please let >> me know or >> pass my name and email on to them. ("South Florida" means the general >> area of >> Palm Beach and Broward (Fort Lauderdale) counties.) All suggestions >> welcome. >> hanks in adance. >> ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 11:34:05 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: <1178562845.706051.270280@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 7, 2:16 pm, "FredK" wrote: > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > > news:op.trysp5cgtte90l@hyrrokkin... > > > > > Do you know PL/I? Is Cape Canaveral too far? > > Cape Canaveral is in the very northern part of Brevard County. The drive > for Charlie would probably be 2.5+ hours when you figure in the time to get > to I-95 from wherever he lives, and to get from I-95 to the Cape. > > Think of where Charlie is as the northern suburbs of Miami ;-) > > >> If you know of any OpenVMS jobs in the South Florida area, please let > >> me know or > >> pass my name and email on to them. ("South Florida" means the general > >> area of > >> Palm Beach and Broward (Fort Lauderdale) counties.) All suggestions > >> welcome. > >> hanks in adance. It's only a few milliseconds via the internet. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:09:09 +0300 From: "Guy Peleg" Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: <463f6cfe$0$5559$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Charlie" wrote in message news:1178544792.789839.15220@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > Since moving to a home office last August, I haven't been around this > newsgroup much. > I probably won't be around much in the future either -- because I have > been accepted > into HP's 200l Enhanced Early Retirmenet Program (EERP). > May 31st, 2007, will be my last day working for HP. > > While I will miss OpenVMS Engineering and the many fine people I've > met here, for me > this was the right thing at the right time. I could see no reason NOT > to take EERP. > > Meanwhile, I'm not dropping off the end of the Earth! > I'll be around. I'll try to monitor this newsgroup from time to time. > My HP email should work through the end of May -- Charles dot Hammond > at HP dot com > My peronal email shoudl work for the indefinite future -- > Charles Hammond at Net Zero dot com. > ***NO SPACE between my first and last name ** NO SPACE between NET and > ZERO. > > I might even try to fix some DCL_CHECK issues! > > I would like to find some full or part time work related to OpenVMS > for the next five > years or so. Either as an employee or as a contractor. > My wife needs to work that long to be fully vested in all the > retirement > benefits from her company. And some $$$ income woudl be nice, > too! ;-) > > If you know of any OpenVMS jobs in the South Florida area, please let > me know or > pass my name and email on to them. ("South Florida" means the general > area of > Palm Beach and Broward (Fort Lauderdale) counties.) All suggestions > welcome. > hanks in adance. > Charlie - thank you for your great contribution to VMS over the years Folks - Charlie was one of the engineers that was not allowed to make any mistakes in his work, he was responsible for the upgrade/installation procedures (among other things)....a bug in his work meant recreating thousands of CDs Guy -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:24:33 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: > > I might even try to fix some DCL_CHECK issues! > Folks - Charlie was one of the engineers that was not allowed > to make any mistakes in his work.... These two statements constitute a paradox. Since Charlie was not allowed...any mistakes, how can DCL_CHECK have issues? 8-) . "Guy Peleg" wrote on 05/07/2007 03:09:09 PM: > > "Charlie" wrote in message > news:1178544792.789839.15220@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > Since moving to a home office last August, I haven't been around this > > newsgroup much. > > I probably won't be around much in the future either -- because I have > > been accepted > > into HP's 200l Enhanced Early Retirmenet Program (EERP). > > May 31st, 2007, will be my last day working for HP. > > > > While I will miss OpenVMS Engineering and the many fine people I've > > met here, for me > > this was the right thing at the right time. I could see no reason NOT > > to take EERP. > > > > Meanwhile, I'm not dropping off the end of the Earth! > > I'll be around. I'll try to monitor this newsgroup from time to time. > > My HP email should work through the end of May -- Charles dot Hammond > > at HP dot com > > My peronal email shoudl work for the indefinite future -- > > Charles Hammond at Net Zero dot com. > > ***NO SPACE between my first and last name ** NO SPACE between NET and > > ZERO. > > > > I might even try to fix some DCL_CHECK issues! > > > > I would like to find some full or part time work related to OpenVMS > > for the next five > > years or so. Either as an employee or as a contractor. > > My wife needs to work that long to be fully vested in all the > > retirement > > benefits from her company. And some $$$ income woudl be nice, > > too! ;-) > > > > If you know of any OpenVMS jobs in the South Florida area, please let > > me know or > > pass my name and email on to them. ("South Florida" means the general > > area of > > Palm Beach and Broward (Fort Lauderdale) counties.) All suggestions > > welcome. > > hanks in adance. > > > Charlie - thank you for your great contribution to VMS over the years > > Folks - Charlie was one of the engineers that was not allowed to make any > mistakes in his work, he was responsible for the upgrade/installation > procedures > (among other things)....a bug in his work meant recreating thousands of CDs > > Guy > > > > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 2007 21:33:43 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" wrote in news:1178562845.706051.270280@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com: > It's only a few milliseconds via the internet. ;-) Unless your ISP routes your traffic via Outer Mongolia. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 17:39:41 -0700 From: Charlie Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: <1178584781.808131.239780@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> PL/1 is one language in which I've never done anything. And, as others point out, Cape Canaveral is an unrealistic comute. But, if we could get past the PL/1 and you'd consider a telecomuter, I could be your man. On May 7, 12:14 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: ... > Do you know PL/I? Is Cape Canaveral too far? ... ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 17:45:24 -0700 From: Charlie Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: <1178585124.818297.243010@e51g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 7, 3:09 pm, "Guy Peleg" wrote: > Charlie - thank you for your great contribution to VMS over the years > > Folks - Charlie was one of the engineers that was not allowed to make any > mistakes in his work, he was responsible for the upgrade/installation > procedures > (among other things)....a bug in his work meant recreating thousands of CDs Thanks, Guy, for the very kind words. As for not making mistakes -- well, I _have_ made my share, but I've never caused all the kit CDs / DVDs to be remade. To be fair, this is largely due to the excellent quality assurance group that tests just about every imaginable possibility for installation and supported upgrade paths. But I have had those moments when an error check added several releases back pops up and helps to make a totaly unexpected error understandable. That's a very satisfying feeling -- part of what I _will_ misss. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:47:44 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: On Mon, 07 May 2007 17:39:41 -0700, Charlie wrote: > PL/1 is one language in which I've never done anything. > And, as others point out, Cape Canaveral is an unrealistic comute. > But, if we could get past the PL/1 and you'd consider a telecomuter, I > could be your man. > > On May 7, 12:14 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > ... >> Do you know PL/I? Is Cape Canaveral too far? > ... > It's not me, but one of our customers. But if I hear of anything will let you know. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 21:28:15 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: <7dd80f60705071828l60dc5e78me60bdf4cdb75d26b@mail.gmail.com> On 7 May 2007 06:33:12 -0700, Charlie wrote: > > If you know of any OpenVMS jobs in the South Florida area, please let > me know or > pass my name and email on to them. ("South Florida" means the general > area of > Palm Beach and Broward (Fort Lauderdale) counties.) All suggestions > welcome. There are a few jobs posted on DICE in the Ft. Lauderdale area, so you might want to look there first... Good luck. Ken Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:05:04 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: <463FE8E0.C80AFF90@spam.comcast.net> Charlie wrote: > > Since moving to a home office last August, I haven't been around this > newsgroup much. > I probably won't be around much in the future either -- because I have > been accepted > into HP's 200l Enhanced Early Retirmenet Program (EERP). > May 31st, 2007, will be my last day working for HP. > > While I will miss OpenVMS Engineering and the many fine people I've > met here, for me > this was the right thing at the right time. I could see no reason NOT > to take EERP. > > Meanwhile, I'm not dropping off the end of the Earth! > I'll be around. I'll try to monitor this newsgroup from time to time. > My HP email should work through the end of May -- Charles dot Hammond > at HP dot com > My peronal email shoudl work for the indefinite future -- > Charles Hammond at Net Zero dot com. > ***NO SPACE between my first and last name ** NO SPACE between NET and > ZERO. > > I might even try to fix some DCL_CHECK issues! Many thanx for all your fine work, Charlie! All the best for the future! -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 2007 06:02:48 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: EERP - Retirement Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2007 13:33:12 UTC, Charlie wrote: > Since moving to a home office last August, I haven't been around this > newsgroup much. > I probably won't be around much in the future either -- because I have > been accepted > into HP's 200l Enhanced Early Retirmenet Program (EERP). > May 31st, 2007, will be my last day working for HP. > I'll echo the thanks Charlie. All the best for the future. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 11:11:25 -0700 From: jhjr4381 Subject: Re: installing resident images - problem Message-ID: <1178561485.621193.196340@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On May 7, 12:36 pm, "Jilly" wrote: > "jhjr4381" wrote in message > > news:1178551142.124454.120720@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > >I am getting errors trying to install resident images at startup. I'm > > on an Alpha V8.2 and trying to execute the RMONSTART72.com to start up > > Oracle Rdb (v7.2). Other com files preceding it are successful, but > > this fails with the folloing error(s): > > > %INSTALL-I-NONRES, image installed ignoring '/RESIDENT' > >> DISK$ALPHASYS:DBMSHR72.EXE > >> -INSTALL-E-NOGHREG, insufficient memory in the code or data granularity > >> hint region > > > VMS gives me the following on the error: > > Explanation: An image was installed using the /RESIDENT qualifier, > > but the code or data granularity hint region does not have enough > > memory for the image's code or read-only data sections. > > > User Action: Consider adjusting the granularity hint region SYSGEN > > parameters: GH_EXEC_CODE, GH_EXEC_DATA, GH_RES_CODE,GH_RES_DATA, and > > GH_RSRVPGCNT. > > > However, no amount of changes I make in the above parameters seem to > > help the problem. The application I am using expects the image to be > > resident, so even though it's installed, it still won't run. > > Any suggestions? > > Post the SHOW MEM/GH output. > Also did you set up the system to keep some GH pages around after startup? > Startup normally releases all unused GH pages when it exits and if you want > to have some free for installing images later then you have to configure > SYSGEN for them. See the SYSGEN GH parameters. > > Jilly- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - GH_EXEC_CODE 4096 1024 0 65536 Pages GH_EXEC_DATA 4096 512 0 65536 Pages GH_RES_CODE 4096 1024 0 65536 Pages GH_RES_DATA 4096 0 0 65536 Pages GH_RSRVPGCNT 400 0 0 -1 Pages initial values were: GH_EXEC_CODE 2048 1024 0 65536 Pages GH_EXEC_DATA 1048 512 0 65536 Pages GH_RES_CODE 3072 (changed for Rdb 7.2 per oracle) GH_RES_DATA 64 GH_RSRVPGCNT 0 Not sure what you meant by MEM - here's GBL info (sorry, newbie): GBLSECTIONS 10000 1024 80 65535 Sections GBLPAGES 1500000 65536 10240 -1 Pagelets D internal value 93750 4096 640 -1 Pages D GBLPAGFIL 75000 16394 32 -1 Pages D ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 14:28:51 -0400 From: "Jilly" Subject: Re: installing resident images - problem Message-ID: <463f6f0e$0$20123$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> "jhjr4381" wrote in message news:1178561485.621193.196340@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > On May 7, 12:36 pm, "Jilly" wrote: >> "jhjr4381" wrote in message >> >> news:1178551142.124454.120720@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> >I am getting errors trying to install resident images at startup. I'm >> > on an Alpha V8.2 and trying to execute the RMONSTART72.com to start up >> > Oracle Rdb (v7.2). Other com files preceding it are successful, but >> > this fails with the folloing error(s): >> >> > %INSTALL-I-NONRES, image installed ignoring '/RESIDENT' >> >> DISK$ALPHASYS:DBMSHR72.EXE >> >> -INSTALL-E-NOGHREG, insufficient memory in the code or data >> >> granularity >> >> hint region >> >> > VMS gives me the following on the error: >> > Explanation: An image was installed using the /RESIDENT qualifier, >> > but the code or data granularity hint region does not have enough >> > memory for the image's code or read-only data sections. >> >> > User Action: Consider adjusting the granularity hint region SYSGEN >> > parameters: GH_EXEC_CODE, GH_EXEC_DATA, GH_RES_CODE,GH_RES_DATA, and >> > GH_RSRVPGCNT. >> >> > However, no amount of changes I make in the above parameters seem to >> > help the problem. The application I am using expects the image to be >> > resident, so even though it's installed, it still won't run. >> > Any suggestions? >> >> Post the SHOW MEM/GH output. >> Also did you set up the system to keep some GH pages around after >> startup? >> Startup normally releases all unused GH pages when it exits and if you >> want >> to have some free for installing images later then you have to configure >> SYSGEN for them. See the SYSGEN GH parameters. >> >> Jilly- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > GH_EXEC_CODE 4096 1024 0 65536 > Pages > GH_EXEC_DATA 4096 512 0 65536 > Pages > GH_RES_CODE 4096 1024 0 65536 > Pages > GH_RES_DATA 4096 0 0 65536 > Pages > GH_RSRVPGCNT 400 0 0 -1 > Pages > > initial values were: > > GH_EXEC_CODE 2048 1024 0 65536 > Pages > GH_EXEC_DATA 1048 512 0 65536 > Pages > GH_RES_CODE 3072 (changed for Rdb 7.2 per > oracle) > GH_RES_DATA 64 > GH_RSRVPGCNT 0 > > Not sure what you meant by MEM - here's GBL info (sorry, newbie): > > GBLSECTIONS 10000 1024 80 65535 > Sections > GBLPAGES 1500000 65536 10240 -1 > Pagelets D > internal value 93750 4096 640 > -1 Pages D > GBLPAGFIL 75000 16394 32 -1 > Pages D > > > You didn't post your current SHOW MEM/GH output. Do you have enough free GH pages for this image? If you don't know how much you need then see the RDB docs or ask RDB support as they should doc how much GH pages are needed to install their pages resident. Here is an example of SHOW MEM/GH _4>show mem/gh System Memory Resources on 7-MAY-2007 14:23:11.77 Granularity Hint Regions (pages): Total Free In Use Released Execlet code region 1536 0 1035 501 Execlet data region 312 0 312 0 S0/S1 Executive data region 1576 0 1576 0 Resident image code region 1024 0 991 33 ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 12:32:54 -0700 From: jhjr4381 Subject: Re: installing resident images - problem Message-ID: <1178566374.701904.32570@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 7, 2:28 pm, "Jilly" wrote: > "jhjr4381" wrote in message > > news:1178561485.621193.196340@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > On May 7, 12:36 pm, "Jilly" wrote: > >> "jhjr4381" wrote in message > > >>news:1178551142.124454.120720@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > > >> >I am getting errors trying to install resident images at startup. I'm > >> > on an Alpha V8.2 and trying to execute the RMONSTART72.com to start up > >> > Oracle Rdb (v7.2). Other com files preceding it are successful, but > >> > this fails with the folloing error(s): > > >> > %INSTALL-I-NONRES, image installed ignoring '/RESIDENT' > >> >> DISK$ALPHASYS:DBMSHR72.EXE > >> >> -INSTALL-E-NOGHREG, insufficient memory in the code or data > >> >> granularity > >> >> hint region > > >> > VMS gives me the following on the error: > >> > Explanation: An image was installed using the /RESIDENT qualifier, > >> > but the code or data granularity hint region does not have enough > >> > memory for the image's code or read-only data sections. > > >> > User Action: Consider adjusting the granularity hint region SYSGEN > >> > parameters: GH_EXEC_CODE, GH_EXEC_DATA, GH_RES_CODE,GH_RES_DATA, and > >> > GH_RSRVPGCNT. > > >> > However, no amount of changes I make in the above parameters seem to > >> > help the problem. The application I am using expects the image to be > >> > resident, so even though it's installed, it still won't run. > >> > Any suggestions? > > >> Post the SHOW MEM/GH output. > >> Also did you set up the system to keep some GH pages around after > >> startup? > >> Startup normally releases all unused GH pages when it exits and if you > >> want > >> to have some free for installing images later then you have to configure > >> SYSGEN for them. See the SYSGEN GH parameters. > > >> Jilly- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > GH_EXEC_CODE 4096 1024 0 65536 > > Pages > > GH_EXEC_DATA 4096 512 0 65536 > > Pages > > GH_RES_CODE 4096 1024 0 65536 > > Pages > > GH_RES_DATA 4096 0 0 65536 > > Pages > > GH_RSRVPGCNT 400 0 0 -1 > > Pages > > > initial values were: > > > GH_EXEC_CODE 2048 1024 0 65536 > > Pages > > GH_EXEC_DATA 1048 512 0 65536 > > Pages > > GH_RES_CODE 3072 (changed for Rdb 7.2 per > > oracle) > > GH_RES_DATA 64 > > GH_RSRVPGCNT 0 > > > Not sure what you meant by MEM - here's GBL info (sorry, newbie): > > > GBLSECTIONS 10000 1024 80 65535 > > Sections > > GBLPAGES 1500000 65536 10240 -1 > > Pagelets D > > internal value 93750 4096 640 > > -1 Pages D > > GBLPAGFIL 75000 16394 32 -1 > > Pages D > > You didn't post your current SHOW MEM/GH output. Do you have enough free GH > pages for this image? If you don't know how much you need then see the RDB > docs or ask RDB support as they should doc how much GH pages are needed to > install their pages resident. > > Here is an example of SHOW MEM/GH > > _4>show mem/gh > System Memory Resources on 7-MAY-2007 14:23:11.77 > > Granularity Hint Regions (pages): Total Free In Use Released > Execlet code region 1536 0 1035 501 > Execlet data region 312 0 312 0 > S0/S1 Executive data region 1576 0 1576 0 > Resident image code region 1024 0 991 33- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - System Memory Resources on 7-MAY-2007 15:37:32.72 Granularity Hint Regions (pages): Total Free In Use Released Execlet code region 4096 0 775 3321 Execlet data region 4096 0 395 3701 S0/S1 Executive data region 401 0 401 0 Resident image code region 4096 65 1536 2495 Resident image data region 4096 0 0 4096 Is this showing that they are all being released regardless of the GH_RSRSRVCNT value? ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 2007 18:23:12 GMT From: "Dan Drake" Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2007 19:15:24 UTC, AEF wrote: > > The problem with the Joshua reference is that even today we speak of > the sun as rising and setting. But it would be wrong to conclude from > that that we don't understand that the Sun is not really "rising" or > "setting" but that it is, in fact, an illusion caused by the rotation > of the Earth. Yes, today we talk that way and know it's a figure of speech. But at the time the account was taken as literally true and important. It's a cliche, but true: what you're saying could get you into trouble in 161X, and in fact is what Galileo was saying. SInce it's often hard to get a full grasp of how poeple thought about stuff thats now obvious, it's worth putting up a couple of quotations. The first is from a letter to his friend Castelli, a Benedictine who was a student and friend of Galileo and had defended him when his ideas came under attack (a fairly mild one) in the court of the Medicis. "What you said ... has given me occasion to consider again some things about ... the passage in Joshua proposed to you by the Grand Duchess ... as contradicting the mobility of the earth..." Now, this was a mere Grand Duchess and not a theologian, but it shows an attitude fo the time. BTW this was same duchess as in the famous Letter to the Grand Duchess. And it's amusing that the only theologically qualified person in the room in that discussion was the monk who defended Galileo's ideas. Now we get more serious. Heavy, in fact. On December 21, 1614, a Domincan named Tommaso Caccini delivered a sermon dagainst all this earth-moves stuff. It's the famous one in which he supposedly quoted Acts: "Ye men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into Heaven?" Clever, but it's no joke when you get formally denounced, along with your followers and mathematicians in general, as practitioners of diabolical arts and enemies of true religion. The bilbical text for that day, the fourth Sunday in Advent: the tenth chapter of Joshua. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%2010&version=9 see verse 12. They did take this stuff seriously. (Actually, these days it *is* a joke when religious nuts call you names like that, at least in the more civilized parts of the world. Not so much, 14 years after some guy was burned at the stake for a bunch of heresies, whether or not they were particularly heliocentric ones.) (Some guy = Giordano Bruno, of course. But I'm trying to detach the burning, an important matter, from his heliocentrism, a peripheral one.) > > I guess they must be referring to the creation in Genesis with the > Earth being created first and the Sun and Moon and stars being created > on the fourth. But this section doesn't explicitly say the "lights" > move around the earth, but I guess this is the passage that the church > is referring to. But I don't think that would make it worthy of house > arrest. Nor do we. But because they did take these matters seriously, his teachings were a threat to the whole Faith, and worth more than just house arrest, if he had failed to cooperate in the end. Funny how these threats to decency and civilization and faith work, isn't it? 400 years later, and anybody who's eagerly waiting for a sort of Marxist withering away of the church had better be able to hold his breath a long time. -- Dan Drake dd@dandrake.com http://www.dandrake.com/ porlockjr.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 18:55:07 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Noahs ark found! Message-ID: <1178589306.916512.82160@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 7, 2:23 pm, "Dan Drake" wrote: > On Sat, 5 May 2007 19:15:24 UTC, AEF wrote: > > > The problem with the Joshua reference is that even today we speak of > > the sun as rising and setting. But it would be wrong to conclude from > > that that we don't understand that the Sun is not really "rising" or > > "setting" but that it is, in fact, an illusion caused by the rotation > > of the Earth. > > Yes, today we talk that way and know it's a figure of speech. But at the > time the account was taken as literally true and important. It's a cliche, > but true: what you're saying could get you into trouble in 161X, and in > fact is what Galileo was saying. SInce it's often hard to get a full grasp > of how poeple thought about stuff thats now obvious, it's worth putting up > a couple of quotations. > > The first is from a letter to his friend Castelli, a Benedictine who was a > student and friend of Galileo and had defended him when his ideas came > under attack (a fairly mild one) in the court of the Medicis. > "What you said ... has given me occasion to consider again some things > about ... the passage in Joshua proposed to you by the Grand Duchess ... > as contradicting the mobility of the earth..." > Now, this was a mere Grand Duchess and not a theologian, but it shows an > attitude fo the time. BTW this was same duchess as in the famous Letter to > the Grand Duchess. And it's amusing that the only theologically qualified > person in the room in that discussion was the monk who defended Galileo's > ideas. > > Now we get more serious. Heavy, in fact. On December 21, 1614, a Domincan > named Tommaso Caccini delivered a sermon dagainst all this earth-moves > stuff. It's the famous one in which he supposedly quoted Acts: "Ye men of > Galilee, why stand you gazing up into Heaven?" Clever, but it's no joke > when you get formally denounced, along with your followers and > mathematicians in general, as practitioners of diabolical arts and enemies > of true religion. The bilbical text for that day, the fourth Sunday in > Advent: the tenth chapter of Joshua.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%2010&version=9 > see verse 12. They did take this stuff seriously. > > (Actually, these days it *is* a joke when religious nuts call you names > like that, at least in the more civilized parts of the world. Not so much, > 14 years after some guy was burned at the stake for a bunch of heresies, > whether or not they were particularly heliocentric ones.) > (Some guy = Giordano Bruno, of course. But I'm trying to detach the > burning, an important matter, from his heliocentrism, a peripheral one.) You make some very good points. My comments were assuming just the Joshua passage. You add a whole lot more useful stuff to the discussion (thanks!). Hey, if they took it that seriously, they'd conclude the same based on a story about us using the terms "rising" and "setting". > > I guess they must be referring to the creation in Genesis with the > > Earth being created first and the Sun and Moon and stars being created > > on the fourth. But this section doesn't explicitly say the "lights" > > move around the earth, but I guess this is the passage that the church > > is referring to. But I don't think that would make it worthy of house > > arrest. > > Nor do we. But because they did take these matters seriously, his > teachings were a threat to the whole Faith, and worth more than just house > arrest, if he had failed to cooperate in the end. > > Funny how these threats to decency and civilization and faith work, isn't > it? 400 years later, and anybody who's eagerly waiting for a sort of > Marxist withering away of the church had better be able to hold his breath > a long time. > > -- > Dan Drake > d...@dandrake.comhttp://www.dandrake.com/ > porlockjr.blogspot.com But the church must have known about the very slow drift of the Sun against the backdrop of the "fixed stars". And that means, in the geocentric model, that the fixed stars are "revolving about the Earth" slightly faster than the Sun, but in synchrony with the seasons and solstices, .... I'm slightly surprised that was never brought up as a clue. (Yeah, I said this last time, but here I add a new ascpect: the "slightly faster" part.) AEF ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 2007 14:51:33 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: "FredK" writes: > "Sue" wrote in message > news:1178375057.819280.262210@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >> Your right I forgot the Star Trek series actually I started with VMS >> themes and then got carried away, which there is in most of them, but >> you will have to figure it out. > The Star Trek (I) series was during the PDP-11 era. Trivia - what was > printed on the cover of that little RSX11M command guide, and how did it > connect to Start Trek? The original _Star Trek_ series was on NBC from autumn 1966 to spring 1969. That's hardly "the PDP-11 era"! (All the delivered DEC systems of the day had word lengths which were multiples of 6.) -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 15:10:38 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: Yeah, as soon as I sent it I wished it was notes and I could do a delete. "Rich Alderson" wrote in message news:mddejlsa2mi.fsf@panix5.panix.com... > "FredK" writes: > >> "Sue" wrote in message >> news:1178375057.819280.262210@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > >>> Your right I forgot the Star Trek series actually I started with VMS >>> themes and then got carried away, which there is in most of them, but >>> you will have to figure it out. > >> The Star Trek (I) series was during the PDP-11 era. Trivia - what was >> printed on the cover of that little RSX11M command guide, and how did it >> connect to Start Trek? > > The original _Star Trek_ series was on NBC from autumn 1966 to spring > 1969. > That's hardly "the PDP-11 era"! (All the delivered DEC systems of the day > had > word lengths which were multiples of 6.) > > -- > Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon > | > news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against > | > "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and > | > --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings > | ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 20:12:40 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Favorite movies of the VMS crowd? Message-ID: <5a9fhnF2nmfvcU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "FredK" writes: > Yeah, as soon as I sent it I wished it was notes and I could do a delete. > > "Rich Alderson" wrote in message > news:mddejlsa2mi.fsf@panix5.panix.com... >> "FredK" writes: >> >>> "Sue" wrote in message >>> news:1178375057.819280.262210@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >> >>>> Your right I forgot the Star Trek series actually I started with VMS >>>> themes and then got carried away, which there is in most of them, but >>>> you will have to figure it out. >> >>> The Star Trek (I) series was during the PDP-11 era. Trivia - what was >>> printed on the cover of that little RSX11M command guide, and how did it >>> connect to Start Trek? But what is the answer to the trivia question? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:51:50 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Message-ID: <463FE5C6.9955D547@spam.comcast.net> http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid5_gci1253901,00.html Long Block Data sector standard finalized The International Disk Drive, Equipment and Materials Association (IDEMA) announced that its workgroup has finalized the definition of the Long Block Data (LBD) sector standard and is releasing it to hardware and software developers. The new standard is meant to replace the 30-year-old standard of 512 bytes per disk-drive sector with 4,096 bytes. According to IDEMA, larger blocks will add reliability to disk drives as data sets and drive capacities grow, add less overhead to data transfer, reduce format time and require shorter periods to scan and defragment disks. -- It will be interesting (for some) to see how OpenVMS adapts to this change going forward. Instead of a disk block holding only a half of a kilobyte, it will then be 4KB - an eight-fold increase. Thus, VMS's current limit of 1TB per disk volume could grow to 8TB per disk volume. (A *LOT* of data to lose in a single incident!) -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 00:44:45 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: Semi-OT: 4K Disk Blocks? Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: ... According to IDEMA, larger blocks will add reliability to disk > drives as data sets and drive capacities grow, That sounds like BS. Perhaps what they were alluding to is that *for the same percentage of additional overhead* (or even somewhat less) using larger blocks should be more reliable, but reliability itself should be pretty much independent of block size per se. add less overhead to data > transfer, Yup. > reduce format time Probably not. No one does 'low-level' formating any more save at the factory, and any other formating is done in large chunks that won't change much with a different block size (save for some modest reduction in data transfer time that they already covered just above). and require shorter periods to scan and > defragment disks. Probably not, since (at least somewhat analogous to the formating comment above) most users of disk blocks like file systems (well, maybe not ODS/x) and databases already use at least a 4KB minimum allocation unit, so going to 4 KB blocks shouldn't affect fragmentation (or defragmentation overhead, save again for a modest reduction in transfer time). > It will be interesting (for some) to see how OpenVMS adapts to this > change going forward. Instead of a disk block holding only a half of a > kilobyte, it will then be 4KB - an eight-fold increase. Thus, VMS's > current limit of 1TB per disk volume could grow to 8TB per disk volume. > (A *LOT* of data to lose in a single incident!) Applications that are performance-optimized for specific non-power-of-2 on-disk cluster sizes may be in for a rough ride; similar optimization problems could occur with RMS placement control at the old, finer granularity (or even with knobs as mundane as DEQ). Knowing too much about the underlying storage can be too smart for one's own good when that storage changes its character. If ODS/x was written (or at some point re-written) to support variable on-disk block sizes (2 KB CD-ROM blocks have been around for a long time, but not quite as long as ODS-2 has) then it may be able to absorb this change fairly gracefully. If not, then it may just continue using 512-byte blocks at all save the lowest levels (which among other things might mean that no increase in supported volume size would occur), and either force them into groups of 8 or (yuck) perform read/modify-write operations for requests which don't align properly with underlying 4 KB sectors. Or disk manufacturers may offer 512-byte sectors as a format option for legacy environments that find change unappealing. While 512 bytes is without question an unreasonably small sector size to use today, it's really not so inefficient that changing it clearly offers enough benefit to offset the pain it will cause for some environments. Windows is certainly not completely immune: just as with ODS/x index file entries, even if *most* file structures are 4KB-aligned image-copying a partition from a normally-configured 512-byte format disk to a 4 KB former disk will result in multiple MFT entries per sector (which can only be addressed using read/modify/write operations that new Windows code will be needed to implement - and it'll still be dog-slow in execution). Interesting times ahead. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 18:36:04 -0500 From: John Subject: Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Message-ID: <463FB7E4.8060203@tx.rr.com> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >Apart from the obvious question---what's the purpose of having a generic >queue with only 1 execution queue---does anyone have this set to a >number higher than 1? > > I have set this value to /QUEUES=10 I have a number of production applications that send e-mail to hundreds of recipients and combined with SMTP paging - well they can get rather busy from time to time. Though I do not have a continuous load - just trying to thwart high demand problems. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 18:35:57 -0500 From: John Subject: Re: SET CONF SMTP/QUEUES Message-ID: <463FB7DD.1050201@tx.rr.com> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >Apart from the obvious question---what's the purpose of having a generic >queue with only 1 execution queue---does anyone have this set to a >number higher than 1? > > I have set this value to /QUEUES=10 I have a number of production applications that send e-mail to hundreds of recipients and combined with SMTP paging - well they can get rather busy from time to time. Though I do not have a continuous load - just trying to thwart high demand problems. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 08:10:49 +1000 From: "Gremlin" Subject: Re: Slightly OT:DS10L and router compatibility Message-ID: <133v8vc4uvvpi99@corp.supernews.com> Well, as it now works and is in production, I am not going to "tempt fate" and try to reproduce the conditions in which it didn't operate..... But, when it wasn't working, "proper" http worked fine from the internal network but not external - again, rebooting the machine fixed the problem - the router wasn't touched. "Michael Moroney" wrote in message news:f1nhin$neq$2@pcls6.std.com... > "Gremlin" writes: > >>Many thanks for everyone's suggestions. It appears that an unlikely >>combination of suggestions has partially worked - and I don't know why. > > What happens if you telnet to port 80 when the DS10L is set up to be > the webserver from outside? From another system on the LAN? > > If it works, you'll see nothing when a successful connection is made, > type something and hit return once or twice and you should get an error > message as text, unless you typed a valid HTTP command. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 11:20:08 -0700 From: Rambo Subject: Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Message-ID: <1178562008.900135.33900@e51g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 7, 1:32 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1178465846.324045.104...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Rambo writes: > > >> Yikes. So let me get this straight: In the Compaq days an enthusiast program > >> existed to allow people to buy Tru64 for US$99 but there isn't an equivalent > >> program today for HP-UX ? What are they thinking? > > >But think of that: Tru64 for 0 and VMS for 30 bucks. Really nice > >alternative... > > What do you mean Tru64 for 0 and VMS for 30 bucks ? > > As noted above the TRU64 enthusiasts program cost $99 [...] But now you can get 5.1B-4 media with license for $0! :-D (straight from Tru64 product manager, I asked about program, got reply that I could give him my address, and behold! Tru64 at my doorstep.) > of making the media available on the internet for hobbyist download) I'm very happy that they didn't- it would be an excellent excuse for dropping hobbyist program as not generating enough attention/revenue if it was free. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 21:31:34 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Message-ID: Rambo schrieb: > > But now you can get 5.1B-4 media with license for $0! :-D > (straight from Tru64 product manager, I asked about program, > got reply that I could give him my address, and behold! Tru64 > at my doorstep.) > And how can mere mortals get hold of media+license ? Does that include some development kit ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:39:39 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Message-ID: In article <1178562008.900135.33900@e51g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Rambo writes: >On May 7, 1:32 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <1178465846.324045.104...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Rambo writes: >> >> >> Yikes. So let me get this straight: In the Compaq days an enthusiast program >> >> existed to allow people to buy Tru64 for US$99 but there isn't an equivalent >> >> program today for HP-UX ? What are they thinking? >> >> >But think of that: Tru64 for 0 and VMS for 30 bucks. Really nice >> >alternative... >> >> What do you mean Tru64 for 0 and VMS for 30 bucks ? >> >> As noted above the TRU64 enthusiasts program cost $99 [...] > >But now you can get 5.1B-4 media with license for $0! :-D >(straight from Tru64 product manager, I asked about program, >got reply that I could give him my address, and behold! Tru64 >at my doorstep.) > I'd be surprised if this wasn't just a one off from a friendly product manager. The Cd + postage costs something so I doubt this is generally available to everyone. >> of making the media available on the internet for hobbyist download) > >I'm very happy that they didn't- it would be an excellent excuse for >dropping hobbyist program as not generating enough attention/revenue >if it was free. > Sorry that doesn't make sense so long as it was done with HP's agreement. It is relatively easy to setup a system which counts the number of downloads and you can setup registration pages to find out who is downloading it. There are a fair number of freely downloadable VMS products - Mozilla/SWB, GNV, GnuPG, SWS/Apache , Java JDK etc etc Indeed with respect to hobbyist media the current situation where most people scrounge the media from someone else means that counting the number who stump up $30 for the hobbyist CDs would give a very very low figure for the number of hobbyists using VMS. Of course counting the number who request licenses would give a more meaningful figure. I don't see how altering the method of media delivery from being just by purchasing a CD (or by scrounging a CD from someone) to being able to download the media from the internet would have any negative impact on that figure. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 20:50:29 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: Sun Studio 11 (Solaris IDE) Message-ID: <463fbcfb$0$16288$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:RBU5DMhpne$y@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <463df058$0$16263$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>, "Neil Rieck" > writes: >> >> There's another point to all this: Sun wants to remain in business and >> has >> decided to embrace other software and hardware technologies. > > Sun diversify? All they can do is UNIX. They're proud of that. > Show me where they're diversified in software technology. > From others in this NG I'm beginning to hear that HP only wants to do HP-UX (and Windows) so HP is much different in that respect. Unlike HP, Sun has got "Solaris" and "Sun Studio" working on many hardware platforms (SPARC, x86, x86-64, and whatever that new ROCK thing is). HP, on the other hand, is going in the other direction and has announced plans to kill off PA-RISC, Alpha, and VAX while only concentrating on Itanium (but not x86 or x86-64). ### Funny thing about Sun: lots of times while watching a TV program on PBS, Discovery Channel, or National Geographic channel, you sometimes see their equipment in the background. If the program involves JPL you "always" see Sun equipment. I'm not sure if this translates into red or black ink for Sun, though. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 14:39:42 -0500 From: cornelius@encompasserve.org (George Cornelius) Subject: Re: SYSMAN problem Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > %SYSMAN-I-NODERR, error returned from node A > -SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachable > > The SMI server is running on node A. Looks more like a network problem than an SMISERVER problem. Here's what I get after stopping SMISERVER on remote node HOSTEI running VMS VAX 7.1: %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node HOSTEI %SYSMAN-I-NODERR, error returned from node HOSTEI -SMI-E-NOSERVER, SMI Server not running in target node I have another cluster where SYSMAN from a more recent VAX node (6.1) to an older (5.5-2) node fails due to, apparently, incompatible versions: %SYSMAN-I-OUTPUT, command execution on node NODE99 %SYSMAN-I-NODERR, error returned from node NODE99 -SYSTEM-F-BADPARAM, bad parameter value or, for P SHOW QUOTA, %SYSMAN-I-NODERR, error returned from node NODE99 -SMI-E-ABORT, SMI Server has aborted at which point we are able to see that a new SMISERVER process has been started to replace the failed one. I would suggest specifying additional configuration information - such as architecture and VMS version - if you want more precise feedback. -- George Cornelius cornelius at eisner.decus.org cornelius at mayo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 18:42:01 -0500 From: John Subject: Re: SYSMAN problem Message-ID: <463FB949.8040001@tx.rr.com> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >>From node A I can execute commands via SYSMAN on nodes A, B and C (all >are in a cluster). However, from nodes B and C, commands can be >executed only on nodes B and C, not on node A, which gives: > >%SYSMAN-I-NODERR, error returned from node A >-SYSTEM-F-UNREACHABLE, remote node is not currently reachable > >The SMI server is running on node A. > >Any ideas? > > Are you running the same version of VMS across the board? Are all the ECO patch kits up to date? I have a V7.2-1 and V7.3-2 cluster mix. The V7.2-1 can SYSMAN to the V7.3-2 servers. The V7.3-2 CAN NOT SYSMAN to the V7.2-1 servers. Have you? Shutdown the SMI server on all nodes, then restart them. Search for [OpenVMS] Troubleshooting SYSMAN-F-UNREACHABLE & SYSMAN-I-NODERR Errors for additional information. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 11:29:10 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: tukwila hits iceberg! Message-ID: <1178562550.351781.120160@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> looks like picking the HP team over the alpha team was a big mistake ... http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39397 ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 2007 21:46:16 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: tukwila hits iceberg! Message-ID: genius@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1178562550.351781.120160 @o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: > looks like picking the HP team over the alpha team > was a big mistake ... > > http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39397 Was your critical faculty a required casualty for your religious conversion? The article you have linked to is rich in ridicule, and lacking in any statistics or other such details to back up the position it takes. In short, it is typical of what comes out of the Inquirer. I'm tempted to say I'm probably wasting my time, you've already demonstrated inbuilt stupidity in your other sources of news. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2007 17:21:24 -0700 From: Truthful.Insights@gmail.com Subject: Re: tukwila hits iceberg! Message-ID: <1178583684.779162.103380@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 7, 2:46 pm, Doc wrote: > gen...@marblecliff.com wrote in news:1178562550.351781.120160 > @o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: > > > looks like picking the HP team over the alpha team > > was a big mistake ... > > >http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39397 > > Was your critical faculty a required casualty for your religious > conversion? > > The article you have linked to is rich in ridicule, and lacking in any > statistics or other such details to back up the position it takes. In > short, it is typical of what comes out of the Inquirer. > > I'm tempted to say I'm probably wasting my time, you've already > demonstrated inbuilt stupidity in your other sources of news. > > Doc. Not responding is an appropriate form of ostracism ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:41:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: tukwila hits iceberg! Message-ID: <17997$463fe380$cef8887a$6047@TEKSAVVY.COM> genius@marblecliff.com wrote: > http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39397 > Interesting reference to RAS being IA64's last advantage. Seems that HP has a well distributed policy on how to respond to questions on why HP insists on continuing with that IA64 thing. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.251 ************************