INFO-VAX Fri, 18 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 272 Contents: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: For Sue - HP Proliant Server Problems Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: LDdriver V9.0 has been released. OpenVMS Pearl - 10th Anniversary of the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program - OpenVMS Pearl - 10th Anniversary of the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program - Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Re: Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Re: Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Re: Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Re: VMSMail notification message Re: VMSMail notification message Re: [OT] Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be Re: [OT] Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 08:27:22 GMT From: ChrisQuayle Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: Main, Kerry wrote: > > [snip...] > > > > Phuleeease .. I will not say OpenVMS could not be marketed a tad better, > but lets not start putting Sun/Solaris on some type of platter here. > > I work a great these days on large multi-platform, multi-vendor IT and > DC consolidation engagements and rightfully or wrongly, almost every > med-large DC Cust I run into with Solaris systems has the following > strategy: > - keep Solaris on SPARC for bigger Apps for now, but look at moving > these to Linux at some point in the future. > - move all other low-med Solaris apps to Linux. > > So, they are certainly not without their big issues these days .. > > Regards > > Kerry Main Why would anyone in their right mind want to run Linux for mission critical stuff when Solaris is now free, industrial strength, has decades of professional development effort and runs on Sparc or X86 ?. One would think the more obvious migration path would be away from Solaris on Sparc to Solaris on X86, needing only a recompile, rather than to a completely different os platform of dubious integrity. You've said it yourself - Linux suffers dozens of patches and security alerts a month for starters. You can't have it both ways. Too many apologies, excuses, NIH, politics, obfustication and the dead hand of corporatism. Face it - HP didn't invent vms and wouldn't recognise a diamond if it bit them in the most relevant place. They deserve to be hammered by Sun, who at least seem to have a dynamic and a passion for what they are doing. Chris ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 10:47:35 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <5b5ei7F2rr7vlU1@mid.individual.net> In article , ChrisQuayle writes: > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> >> [snip...] >> > >> >> >> Phuleeease .. I will not say OpenVMS could not be marketed a tad better, >> but lets not start putting Sun/Solaris on some type of platter here. >> >> I work a great these days on large multi-platform, multi-vendor IT and >> DC consolidation engagements and rightfully or wrongly, almost every >> med-large DC Cust I run into with Solaris systems has the following >> strategy: >> - keep Solaris on SPARC for bigger Apps for now, but look at moving >> these to Linux at some point in the future. >> - move all other low-med Solaris apps to Linux. >> >> So, they are certainly not without their big issues these days .. >> > > Why would anyone in their right mind want to run Linux for mission > critical stuff when Solaris is now free, industrial strength, has > decades of professional development effort and runs on Sparc or X86 ?. That's funny. I have been saying the same thing about BSD (here, as a matter of fact) for quite some time. And the answer is........... MARKETING!!! But then, you probably already new that. As I have said in the past, many times, if marketing can make a piece of crap like Linux such a success, just think what it could have done for VMS. (Yes, I deliberately used the past tense as I am fairly certain that nothing can return VMS to the position it rightly deserves.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 07:35:47 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <464D8F93.4020104@comcast.net> ChrisQuayle wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> >> [snip...] >> > >> >> >> Phuleeease .. I will not say OpenVMS could not be marketed a tad better, >> but lets not start putting Sun/Solaris on some type of platter here. > Too many apologies, excuses, NIH, politics, obfustication and the dead > hand of corporatism. Face it - HP didn't invent vms and wouldn't > recognise a diamond if it bit them in the most relevant place. They > deserve to be hammered by Sun, who at least seem to have a dynamic and a > passion for what they are doing. > I'm sure that HP has a passion for what they are doing! You just have to remember that what they are doing is selling ink and toner! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:11:08 GMT From: ChrisQuayle Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: ChrisQuayle wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> >> [snip...] >> > The real message behind the rhetoric seems to be that hp wants to move clients to any port in a storm, so long as it isn't Solaris, as that's what they perceive as being the main threat. Perhaps hp-ux is the answer, who knows. Of course, it only runs on one hardware platform, which is expensive and isn't x86. One of the reasons why Solaris and VMS have been so successfull is continuity. Currently running Alpha & Sparc Sol 8 here, but there are parts and a timeline in Solaris that date back to the earliest Sun os's, which help to protect investment in learned skills. In comparison, every time I look again at Linux, everythings changed and you have to find out where everything is and what all the utils are called this week. The really sad thing about canning Tru64 was that it was starting to look like the first valid competitor to Solaris for decades.A little incomplete and unformed perhaps, but rock solid. A modern unix with loads of fresh ideas and they effectively threw it all away with Alpha. The mind staggering incompetance and irrationality of large corporates nevers ceases to amaze me. I guess the shareholders must be happy with all the ink, tv and consumer electronics sales, but it isn't the attention to detail and passion that builds world class product... Chris ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 08:26:32 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: In article , ChrisQuayle writes: > > Why would anyone in their right mind want to run Linux for mission > critical stuff when Solaris is now free, industrial strength, has > decades of professional development effort and runs on Sparc or X86 ?. I have more faith in Linux. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 13:34:18 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <5b5oaqF2r9ncfU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , ChrisQuayle writes: >> >> Why would anyone in their right mind want to run Linux for mission >> critical stuff when Solaris is now free, industrial strength, has >> decades of professional development effort and runs on Sparc or X86 ?. > > I have more faith in Linux. Why? It's got to be one of the worst versions of Unix to ever be foisted on the public. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:41:45 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: "ChrisQuayle" wrote in message news:MBh3i.76$CE.9@newsfe5-win.ntli.net... > ChrisQuayle wrote: >> Main, Kerry wrote: >> >>> >>> [snip...] >>> >> > > The real message [snip the Sun sales pitch...] The truth is that the market is slowly narrowing down into two "mainstream" OSes - Windows and Linux. There will continue to be "boutique" OSes that serve specific niches and maintain legacy applications that nobody wants to (or perhaps even can) port. The UNIXes have work cut out for them to remain viable boutiques. Linux is after all is said and done - the "Universal UNIX" - and where new innovation in the non-Windows space will come from. If I was a UNIX/Solaris-type shop and was looking forward into the future - I would be looking to migrate the important stuff to Linux and consolidate/encapsulate the legacy applications where the port wasn't trivial. Solaris doesn't really have some "unique" aspect to it to give it an application or environment-specific niche. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 14:03:07 GMT From: ChrisQuayle Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , ChrisQuayle writes: > >>Why would anyone in their right mind want to run Linux for mission >>critical stuff when Solaris is now free, industrial strength, has >>decades of professional development effort and runs on Sparc or X86 ?. > > > I have more faith in Linux. > Sorry, but faith isn't the issue. I don't want to futz around with the os, I just want to set it up with the minimum of unnecessary hassle, then use it to develop, serve and run applications. Feed it a backup every so often, service, stick it in a corner and almost forget it. I want continuity, so I can upgrade and be confident that there won't be any major surprises, all the original utilities and hardware still work. Preferably just like they did before and any sources compile without hassles about library versions for obscure parts of the os that i've never heard of. Over time, I want understanding and visibility about the os to filter in via osmosis, not start all over every time I look at a new release. I want the whole system to be clean and well engineered, so I can respect it's integrity and design elegance, with as few compromises in system engineering terms as possible, and no bits glued on as afterthoughts or 'god, we did't think of that' issues. Because Linux seems to develop fast and incrementaly, with everyone's code seemingly dependant on someone elses obscure library or some such, the whole thing becomes too matrixed out and inefficient, rather than classic big picture systems engineering. All the great os's like vms were about. this - structural design and interfaces first, then think about filling in the boxes later... Chris -- ---------------------- Greenfield Designs Ltd Electronic and Embedded System Design Oxford, England (44) 1865 750 681 ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 07:38:42 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <1179499122.866668.222840@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On 18 May, 14:41, "FredK" wrote: > "ChrisQuayle" wrote in message > > news:MBh3i.76$CE.9@newsfe5-win.ntli.net... > > > ChrisQuayle wrote: > >> Main, Kerry wrote: > > >>> [snip...] > > > The real message > > [snip the Sun sales pitch...] > > The truth is that the market is slowly narrowing down into two "mainstream" > OSes - Windows and Linux. There will continue to be "boutique" OSes that > serve specific niches and maintain legacy applications that nobody wants to > (or perhaps even can) port. > Odd, we have seen a number of large early Linux adopters quietly reversing out of their Linux strategy in favor of Solaris on x86 and increasingly Solaris on Sun x86 hardware. The reasons typically given are, Solaris is cheaper, costs less to own, runs the same apps as Linuxand is as fast or faster on the same hardware. And oh by the way its identical to manage are our big Sun SPARC boxes. Solaris due to the inclusion of a host of new, interesting and sometimes novel technologies is also "cool" with Solaris/OpenSolaris protagonists regularly mocking Linux advocates on the gap or perceived gap between Linux and Solaris in terms of capability. This change has happened since the introduction of Solaris 10 and OpenSolaris and has been supported by very aggressive engineer led "marketing" of Solaris to the technical community. This of course only applies to the server market, Windows, OS-X and Linux are still the kings of the desktop. > The UNIXes have work cut out for them to remain viable boutiques. Linux is > after all is said and done - the "Universal UNIX" - and where new innovation > in the non-Windows space will come from. If I was a UNIX/Solaris-type shop > and was looking forward into the future - I would be looking to migrate the > important stuff to Linux and consolidate/encapsulate the legacy applications > where the port wasn't trivial. Solaris doesn't really have some "unique" > aspect to it to give it an application or environment-specific niche. Solaris really does have some unique capabilities when compared with Linux and thats what seems to be driving the change, that plus clever marketing by Sun. Regards Andrew Harrison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:58:24 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: "Andrew" wrote in message news:1179499122.866668.222840@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > On 18 May, 14:41, "FredK" wrote: >> "ChrisQuayle" wrote in message >> >> news:MBh3i.76$CE.9@newsfe5-win.ntli.net... >> > > Odd, we have seen a number of large early Linux adopters quietly > reversing out of their Linux strategy in favor of Solaris on x86 and > increasingly Solaris on Sun x86 hardware. > I'm sure you have Andrew. > > Solaris really does have some unique capabilities when compared with > Linux and thats what seems to be driving the change, that plus clever > marketing by Sun. > Really? ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 09:36:25 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <1179506185.319604.92860@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 10:38 am, Andrew wrote: > > Solaris really does have some unique capabilities when compared with > Linux and thats what seems to be driving the change, that plus clever > marketing by Sun. > > Regards > Andrew Harrison- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - what is clever about giving away something for free? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 17:10:17 GMT From: ChrisQuayle Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: FredK wrote: > > The truth is that the market is slowly narrowing down into two "mainstream" > OSes - Windows and Linux. There will continue to be "boutique" OSes that > serve specific niches and maintain legacy applications that nobody wants to > (or perhaps even can) port. > > The UNIXes have work cut out for them to remain viable boutiques. Linux is > after all is said and done - the "Universal UNIX" - and where new innovation > in the non-Windows space will come from. If I was a UNIX/Solaris-type shop > and was looking forward into the future - I would be looking to migrate the > important stuff to Linux and consolidate/encapsulate the legacy applications > where the port wasn't trivial. Solaris doesn't really have some "unique" > aspect to it to give it an application or environment-specific niche. > It's no Sun sales pitch. Have no interest other than purely technical and objective analysis of the facts and use both Alpha and Sun boxes here. The Alpha is still faster as well, though it's usefullness is limited by being left by the software wayside, so to speak. Your comments above sound like a meaning for meaning repeat of what Kerry said earlier, so it's probably safe to assume that this is the official HP mantra and modus operandi (ie: convince customers to ditch Solaris in favour of Linux), but they could hardly endorse anything from Sun anyway, so we have to take anything they say in this respect with a big pinch of salt. With Linux, you have an open source os, targetted to run on X86 primarily (Alpha versions are slow, for example), written by by cast of thousands, inefficient, seems to works well overall, but no real idea of how robust the underlying code is, total cost of ownership, nor of the cost (Kerry) of endless patches and security alerts over time. Support (costs ?) from a variety of vendors, mostly small to medium sized with limited track record and could be gone tomorrow. Ok, there are exceptions - Suse now owned by Novell, but have I time or inclination to evaluate all the various dialects to see which is the best, when there are known good or better alternatives ?. Solaris is also open source now and free to use, but the fundamental difference is that is is the product of a systems engineering development environment, just as vms is. It has been developed and finely tuned over decades, just as vms has. It has a sense of history and continuity, just as vms has. It has the support, if you need and can afford it, from a company that have a history and continuity, just as vms had. In short, it inspires confidence, just as vms does, to those who can see the difference between spin and reality. It runs on both X86 and Sparc, so you can choose which hardware to run it on. Ok, the above is short of detail, but you can't expect an os written in an anarchic environment to be as tightly integrated and well engineered as one that has been developed in a systems engineering environment. You eventually have to bring organisational structure into the mix. Yes, you need the cast of thousands to get all the creative original ideas, but this must be shaved down to build a properly engineered product at some stage. Is it there yet ?... Chris -- ---------------------- Greenfield Designs Ltd Electronic and Embedded System Design Oxford, England (44) 1865 750 681 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 07:13:39 -0600 From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: For Sue - HP Proliant Server Problems Message-ID: <464da683$0$10306$815e3792@news.qwest.net> Now for the humorous part. The HP tech, Roy, showed up yesterday, plugged everything together (the last, really strange looking cable was the correct one) and powered up the server. One of the new drives literally smoked. When he shut the server back down and removed the drive, Roy discovered that one of the chips on the drive itself had bubbled. Roy took the drive and is getting a replacement for us. Thanks Sue. Mike. "Sue" wrote in message news:1179448038.670809.20000@q23g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > On May 14, 12:57 pm, "Michael D. Ober" > wrote: >> As an HP customer, I really don't care who handles my tech support calls >> as >> long as I can understand them on the phone and they can get the job done. >> Until I posted last week, neither was occurring. Therefore, my >> assessment >> of using Costa Rica for telephone support is a long term lose/lose >> situation. Customers lose the HP support they were accustomed to and HP >> loses customers when they are ready to replace their existing equipment. >> Oh, and by the way, when the latter happens, the "banana and coffee bean >> pickers" will be out of a job because their former job has now been taken >> by >> someone else. >> >> Mike Ober. >> >> wrote in message >> >> news:00A679AD.D1765A8C@SendSpamHere.ORG... >> >> >> >> > In article <46486302$0$505$815e3...@news.qwest.net>, "Michael D. Ober" >> > writes: >> > {...snip...} >> >>Now, who do we complain to that outsourcing the gatekeepers to Costa >> >>Rica >> >>is >> >>a lousy idea. >> >> > Not for the former banana and coffee bean pickers in Costa Rica. >> >> > -- >> > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker >> > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Just to close on this Mike and I did talk and this has been resolved. > Sue > ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 12:22:05 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <5b5k3dF2r5b10U1@mid.individual.net> Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA really still running PDP-11's? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 05:27:11 -0700 From: NightmarePatrol@gmail.com Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <1179491231.582676.182960@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 8:22 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA > really still running PDP-11's? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Mumps made it to Alpha, though it's now layered on top of VMS rather than a stand-alons OS as it was originally. Actually the VA is running Galaxy boxes at several locations. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 12:29:09 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <5b5kglF2r5b10U2@mid.individual.net> In article <5b5k3dF2r5b10U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA > really still running PDP-11's? > OK, I actually found at least some of the answer to this. Apparently DSM runs on VAX on top of VMS. Interesting. So now we can conclude that at least one remaining VMS customer is the VA, but somehow I don't think they will be moving to Itanium. I wonder if they are using real VAX hardware or something like Charon VAX? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:36:31 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA > really still running PDP-11's? I'm fairly sure it morphed into Caché. See: http://www.intersystems.com/ It's pretty common in Health Care in the UK (running on Alpha). Don't know about VA VISTA. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 05:41:15 -0700 From: Jim Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <1179492075.125723.279770@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 8:29 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <5b5k3dF2r5b1...@mid.individual.net>, > b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? > > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did > > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA > > really still running PDP-11's? > > OK, I actually found at least some of the answer to this. Apparently DSM > runs on VAX on top of VMS. Interesting. So now we can conclude that at > least one remaining VMS customer is the VA, but somehow I don't think they > will be moving to Itanium. I wonder if they are using real VAX hardware > or something like Charon VAX? > DSM also runs on Alpha VMS - at least it does up to VMS 7.3 (DSM was sold by DEC to Intersystems). From there the migration is to Intersystems' Cache DBMS which also runs on VMS (Alpha and Itanium) which can execute MUMPS code. My recollection is that the VA has moved or is moving to the Cache DBMS. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 12:49:19 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <5b5lmfF2pt5c9U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "R.A.Omond" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? >> The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did >> it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA >> really still running PDP-11's? > > I'm fairly sure it morphed into Caché. > > See: http://www.intersystems.com/ > > It's pretty common in Health Care in the UK (running on Alpha). > > Don't know about VA VISTA. Amazing. I wonder what the status of DSM-11 is and if there is any way I could find and run a copy of it on one of my PDP-11's? Now that would probably be a blast. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 08:03:47 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: In article , "R.A.Omond" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? >> The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did >> it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA >> really still running PDP-11's? > > I'm fairly sure it morphed into Caché. > > See: http://www.intersystems.com/ Actually, for existing customers Intersystems will still support DSM on Alpha. For new installations, they would rather sell you Cache'. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:13:28 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <464DA678.3050405@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA > really still running PDP-11's? > > bill > I believe that DSM runs on VAX/VMS. I'm less sure about VMS/Alpha. DSM is widely used in Health Care applications and is almost unknown elsewhere. Something called "Cache" is frequently found with DSM. A large percentage of the remaining VMS jobs seem to require DSM/Cache experience as well! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:12:42 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <8660a3a10705180612h2035d3famcdd870cd4bee788d@mail.gmail.com> On 18 May 2007 08:03:47 -0500, Larry Kilgallen wrot= e: > In article , "R.A.Omond" writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA V= ISTA? > >> The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11.= Did > >> it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is th= e VA > >> really still running PDP-11's? > > > > I'm fairly sure it morphed into Cach=E9. > > > > See: http://www.intersystems.com/ > > Actually, for existing customers Intersystems will still support DSM > on Alpha. For new installations, they would rather sell you Cache'. > > DSM will not be ported to OpenVMS Integrity. Cach=E9 already has been. WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 08:29:26 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: In article <5b5k3dF2r5b10U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VISTA? > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. Did > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the VA > really still running PDP-11's? > DSM did make it to VMS (I don't know about Alpha), and MUMPS made it to IBM mainframes. I don't know which class of mainframes, but I did know a programmer who used it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 08:02:37 +0200 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: LDdriver V9.0 has been released. Message-ID: <464d4188$0$326$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> If two LD devices on different nodes have the same name and allocation class, they MUST point to exactly the same containerfile, and the driver will make sure that it happens that way. VMS locking will then do the trick, so this is no problem. Jur. JF Mezei wrote: > Jur van der Burg wrote: >> Node a: >> $ ld connect $1$dka0:[000000]disk1.dsk/shared lda1: >> >> Node b: >> $ ld connect $1$dka0:[000000]disk1.dsk/shared lda1: > >> Then you can mount lda1: on both nodes and share the data. > > > But in such a case, is it correct to state that there will not be any > proper clusterwide locking of the files/records inside the LDA1: disk ? > > aka: you would have access conflicts that are undetected when node1 > accesses chocolate.dat in LDA1: as node2 writes to chocolate.dat at the > same time ? > > ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 10:38:24 -0700 From: Sue Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - 10th Anniversary of the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program - Message-ID: <1179509904.678894.92650@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> -----Original Message----- From: Skonetski, Susan Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 11:29 AM To: Skonetski, Susan Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - 10th Anniversary of the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program - Ok for External http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/05/18/5543122 Dear Distribution lists, 10 years and more than a Million paks later. And what started out as a good idea from Pat Jankowiak has grown into a world wide user driven program now available on Integrity Servers. This shows what can be done when a user community like DECUS (now Encompass gets involved) and works with DEC/HP. Please read the article for the full story. Warm Regards, Sue ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 10:38:20 -0700 From: Sue Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - 10th Anniversary of the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program - Message-ID: <1179509900.256627.46760@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> -----Original Message----- From: Skonetski, Susan Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 11:29 AM To: Skonetski, Susan Subject: OpenVMS Pearl - 10th Anniversary of the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program - Ok for External http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/05/18/5543122 Dear Distribution lists, 10 years and more than a Million paks later. And what started out as a good idea from Pat Jankowiak has grown into a world wide user driven program now available on Integrity Servers. This shows what can be done when a user community like DECUS (now Encompass gets involved) and works with DEC/HP. Please read the article for the full story. Warm Regards, Sue ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 02:24:21 -0700 From: Hiten Subject: Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Message-ID: <1179480261.018929.303470@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Hi, I am looking for a PDP 11 consultant who has experience in all the following: Hands on candidate with exp. with DEC RSX-11 O/S including backup and restore utility to support daily operations - PDP 11 series h/w platforms. Location - Orange County, CA Long Term Contract If you are interested, please send me your resume or call me to discuss further. Thanks, Hitendra iSpace Inc. 212-608-3045 ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 05:10:07 -0700 From: "winston19842005@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Message-ID: <1179490207.713749.291110@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 5:24 am, Hiten wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for a PDP 11 consultant who has experience in all the > following: > > Hands on candidate with exp. with DEC RSX-11 O/S including backup and > restore utility to support daily operations - PDP 11 series h/w > platforms. > > Location - Orange County, CA > Long Term Contract > > If you are interested, please send me your resume or call me to > discuss further. Sifting through my history... You mean the old BRU utility? Gosh, I remember that - it was 20 years ago this year. Having to INSTALL separate copies to do multiple backups on the operator console (Decwriter of some model). We usually installed at least one other called "BLU". IIRC, the process names were BRUTO and BLUTO... ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 09:38:11 -0700 From: genius@marblecliff.com Subject: Re: Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Message-ID: <1179506291.116706.263330@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 5:24 am, Hiten wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking for a PDP 11 consultant who has experience in all the > following: > > Hands on candidate with exp. with DEC RSX-11 O/S including backup and > restore utility to support daily operations - PDP 11 series h/w > platforms. > > Location - Orange County, CA > Long Term Contract > > If you are interested, please send me your resume or call me to > discuss further. > > Thanks, > Hitendra > iSpace Inc. > 212-608-3045 there you go Bill, a perfect opportunity awaits you ... ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 09:47:43 -0700 From: yyyc186@hughes.net Subject: Re: Opportunity for a PDP 11 Consultant in Orange County, CA Message-ID: <1179506863.894081.5890@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 7:10 am, "winston19842...@yahoo.com" wrote: > On May 18, 5:24 am, Hiten wrote: > > > Hi, > > > I am looking for a PDP 11 consultant who has experience in all the > > following: > > > Hands on candidate with exp. with DEC RSX-11 O/S including backup and > > restore utility to support daily operations - PDP 11 series h/w > > platforms. > > > Location - Orange County, CA > > Long Term Contract > > > If you are interested, please send me your resume or call me to > > discuss further. > > Sifting through my history... > > You mean the old BRU utility? Gosh, I remember that - it was 20 years > ago this year. Having to INSTALL separate copies to do multiple > backups on the operator console (Decwriter of some model). We usually > installed at least one other called "BLU". > > IIRC, the process names were BRUTO and BLUTO... Just be sure your billing rate takes into account that Orange County, CA is the highest cost of living in the nation. $45.00/hr will not even cover your meals + corporate housing unit. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:48:42 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Message-ID: <00A67CA9.6B1B60E2@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "John Gemignani, Jr." writes: > > > > wrote in message >news:00A67BE3.65BC8D18@SendSpamHere.ORG... >> In article , "John Gemignani, >> Jr." writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> wrote in message >>>news:00A67B09.4FAB7135@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>>> In article , "John Gemignani, >>>> Jr." writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> wrote in message >>>>>news:00A67A7C.E34FD775@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>>>>> In article <00A67A68.F7818E9B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- >>>>>> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>>>>>>{...snip...} >>>>>> >>>>>> A little more info... the socket name structures are documented on >>>>>> section >>>>>> 5.5 of >>>>>> the HP TCPIP Services "Sockets API and System Services Programming"; >>>>>> particularly >>>>>> in figures 5.8, 5.9 and 5.10. >>>>>> >>>>>> When using the IO$_SENSEMODE, is there anyway to enforce one format >>>>>> over >>>>>> another? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker >>>>>> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>>>>> >>>>>> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >>>>> >>>>>I coded up the QIO interface when TCPIP added support for IPv6. This >>>>>required the BSD 4.4 interface which included the new length field. To >>>>>use >>>>>the BSD 4.4 interface (SIN44$), you need to set a special bit in the QIO >>>>>modifiers. I think it was something like the IO$M_EXTEND bit. Otherwise >>>>>a >>>>>BSD 4.3 block (SIN$) is returned. >>>> >>>> I have just IO$_ACPCONTROL and I am getting back a SIN6$ structure >>>> without >>>> the use of the IO$M_EXTEND modifier bit. >>> >>> So then, you're NOT using IO$_SENSEMODE as you stated in your original >>>question. >>> If you're using IO$_ACPCONTROL, are you asking the ACP to perform name >>>translation? >>> From what I recall, that was an undocumented interface (but I could be >>>wrong). >> >> Sorry, it is IO$_SENSEMODE... not IO$_ACPCONTROL. I just posted a simple >> bit of code. > > > What did you specify for a length in the descriptor? Did you give it the >full potential size of the result? Yes. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:57:23 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Message-ID: <00A67CAA.A1C5C707@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Richard Maher" writes: > > >Hi Brian, > >I'll re-read the whole thread again tonight but do these changes yeild the >result you're after? > >PEER: .WORD 16,0 >..ADDRESS P_ADR >..ADDRESS P_LEN >..LONG 0 > >P_LEN: .LONG 0 >P_ADR: >addr_dom: .word 0 >port_num: .word 0 >host_adr: .byte 0[4] > .blkb 8 I had tried that. If I set the descriptor to PEER: .WORD 16,0 and shorten the P_ADR (not really necessary if this is TRULY using the descriptor, I get the P_LEN returned (as expected) as 10(16) or 16. I still get xxxx001A returned in the first longword of the P_ADR structure. This is the signature of the SIN6$ sockaddr_in (length of 1A(16) or 26) and the socket number. The next few longwords are 0. This is why I asked this question. There does not seem to be a way to enforce SIN or SIN44 or SIN6. It returns what it returns and it seems that it is up to the programmer to make a determination and handle it accordingly -- which I have in my code but this behavior doesn't seem to be well documented in the manuals. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 09:29:28 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be Message-ID: <1179505768.901251.150510@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On May 17, 3:11 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: > > In article <464C635C.4040...@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >>The available evidence; e.g. the number of ink jet printers at curbside > >>on trash day, suggests that a lot of people just buy a new printer > >>instead of buying a new ink cartridge. It doesn't cost all that much > >>more. . . . ;-) > > > I have a Lexmark that was supposed to be free as part of an Apple > > promotion, but due to incompetence was actually bought at $75. It > > takes two cartridges at over $100 total. > > > It gathers dust. > > About ten years ago, I bought an HP LJ4000 with a Duplex unit. I'm > still using it though I'm only on my second toner cartridge. I suppose > its' overkill for a home printer but it works and works well. I added a > Jet Direct card a couple of years ago so now it's a network printer and > any computer in the house can use it. Three years ago (Feb 2004) I bought a used LJ4050TN and added a duplexer to it (Mainly for printing out the OpenVMS documentation PDF files). It was manufactured in 1999.. I've gone though 1 1/2 toner cartridges (about 20K pages) since I bought it and it still works great. I've had a total of 5 paper jams which were due to the duplexer being a little stiff from disuse when I first got it. Other than that I've had none at all. It's firmware is supposedly too old for DCPS so I might upgrade it eventually, but so far I haven't had a problem in that area either. This thing is a tank that I'm very happy with. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 14:31:00 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: Keith Parris wrote in news:f2iita$d5a$2 @usenet01.boi.hp.com: > Doug Phillips wrote: >> I recently bought a Canon MP830 and I'm very impressed with it after >> using HP for years. It has individual photo/color cartridges (Black, >> Yellow, Magenta, Cyan) > > HP also sells some printer models with individual cartridges for each > color of ink. Oh they may, but I've heard too many horror stories about cartridges with expiry dates. HP aren't the only company that I've heard that about, and I suspect the temptation may be too much for other companies not to follow suit. My thought on the matter is that expiring ink is about as sensible as the supermarket having bottled water with a shelf date. However I think the ink expiry date is worse. It is in a sealed plastic container, with a plastic wrapper, inside a plastic bag that comes in a pretty box. Entropy simply isn't as vicious as some printer manufacturers make out. That or the ink they're selling which will degrade isn't worth the ridiculous price they're charging. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 09:16:56 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: <1179505016.672083.123810@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On May 17, 4:53 pm, Keith Parris wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > I recently bought a Canon MP830 and I'm very impressed with it after > > using HP for years. It has individual photo/color cartridges (Black, > > Yellow, Magenta, Cyan) > > HP also sells some printer models with individual cartridges for each > color of ink. Didn't say they didn't, but so what if they do? I was talking about the Canon MP830. I liked the fact that the Canon has a 2nd larger black cartridge. The HP's I saw use a single black cartridge for both photo and text. I didn't make comparisons between the two other than that Canon lacked a NIC, but please do tell us about your comparably priced HP Multi-Function. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 09:45:38 -0700 From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be helping HP ? Message-ID: <1179506738.264108.280180@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 12:16 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On May 17, 4:53 pm, Keith Parris wrote: > > > Doug Phillips wrote: > > > I recently bought a Canon MP830 and I'm very impressed with it after > > > using HP for years. It has individual photo/color cartridges (Black, > > > Yellow, Magenta, Cyan) > > > HP also sells some printer models with individual cartridges for each > > color of ink. > > Didn't say they didn't, but so what if they do? I was talking about > the Canon MP830. I liked the fact that the Canon has a 2nd larger > black cartridge. The HP's I saw use a single black cartridge for both > photo and text. I didn't make comparisons between the two other than > that Canon lacked a NIC, but please do tell us about your comparably > priced HP Multi-Function. I recently bought a printer for my wife and I looked hard at the Canon MP830 and the MP960 but ended up with an HP C6180. I really didn't want to go with the HP because we had a multitude of driver problems on her Win2K system with an HP 2110 AIO. I also had reservations about the Canon products since we had a bad experience with a MP130 (Constant paper jams and cock-eyed printing). I did a lot of looking in the help forums various places and nobody was reporting any problems with the drivers for these (We print from Mac OS X and Windows). The MP960, while nice, was a bit pricey at the time ($499 most places) and the MP830 just didn't feel as easy to use. So we got the C6180 at MicroCenter for $259 (plus tax). So far no complaints. We have printed about 300 pages on it without problems and haven't had the driver issues like before. We've done a little scanning and copying also. My wife prints to it from her Win2k PC and the kids print from their Mac Mini. I have the HP LJ4050 and not much need for color so I haven't tried printing with my Mac Pro or even from VMS (via LPR and a Mac, I suppose). The HP c6180 is a 6-color photo printer with fax/scanner/copier functions. Each color has its own cartridge and the black is around twice as big as the other colors. Retail for each color cartridge is $9.95 and the black is $14.95. You can get discounts at Sam's Club and other places. John H. Reinhardt ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 08:18:12 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMSMail notification message Message-ID: <9ZchU16mfl07@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > Disable just the mail message with SET BROADCAST=NOMAIL. > [...] > > Or, edit from within a command file, turning off the mail broadcast > before invoking the editor and turning it back on afterwards (assuming > one wants to see it, except when editing). Yes, I forgot about that feature (how long ago was it introduced)? For decades I've been burned by people who just SET TERMINAL/NOBROADCAST in some command file and left it that way. And other prople put that in their login.com and wanted to know why the computer "suddenly" stopped working without anyone warning them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:53:27 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: VMSMail notification message Message-ID: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote on 05/17/2007 06:42:29 PM: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > In article <1179414006.076557.80560@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > BaxterD@tessco.com writes: > > > I know this is a very simple problem, but how do I suppress the > > > "new mail" messages which are being displayed on the terminal?? > > > > > > e.g. New mail on node XXXXXX from XXXXXX::NIGHTEND (09:47:55) > > > > > > > 1) get people to stop sending you email > > 2) get the system manager to set your account "dismail" > > 3) change your terminal settings as specified in "help set terminal" > > (but then you also won't get system shutdown warnings and such) > > Disable just the mail message with SET BROADCAST=NOMAIL. > > > If you have a problem with these being displayed while in an editor > > or such, the VMS convention is that control-W redraws the screen. > > If you have an application that is not obeying this it may have a > > different convention, or you might ask for it to be fixed. > > Or, edit from within a command file, turning off the mail broadcast > before invoking the editor and turning it back on afterwards (assuming > one wants to see it, except when editing). > > Note: I often edit from within a command file anyway, so that I can save > the file from EDT without exiting (I'm not aware of another way of doing > this). (As a bonus, I get uniquely named journal files.) > > $! EE.COM > $! > $ DEFINE/USER_MODE EDT_FILE 'P1' > $ FILE = F$ELEMENT(0,".",P1) > $ TYPE = F$ELEMENT(1,".",P1) > $ JFL = FILE + "_" + TYPE + ".JOU" > $ IF F$SEARCH(JFL) .NES. "" THEN GOTO JOURNAL > $ DEFINE/USER_MODE SYS$INPUT SYS$COMMAND > $ EDIT/EDT/JOURNAL='JFL' 'P1' > $ EXIT > $JOURNAL: > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "%EE-E-JRNLFE, journal file exists" > $ READ/PROMPT="press return to recover, ^Y to abort " SYS$COMMAND ANSW > $ DEFINE/USER_MODE SYS$INPUT SYS$COMMAND > $ EDIT/EDT/JOURNAL='JFL'/RECOVER 'P1' > $ EXIT > > Then put this in EDTINI.EDT: > > DEFINE KEY GOLD W AS "EXT WRITE EDT_FILE." > Why not just put this in EDTINI.EDT and you can write any file from any buffer anytime. Define Key Gold O as "EXT WRITE ?'Output file: ' =?' From buffer named: ' ; FIND LAST." (I do use a file, but that's not needed for this.) ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2007 08:23:35 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: [OT] Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be Message-ID: In article <464CA8F8.9030104@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > About ten years ago, I bought an HP LJ4000 with a Duplex unit. I'm > still using it though I'm only on my second toner cartridge. I suppose > its' overkill for a home printer but it works and works well. I added a > Jet Direct card a couple of years ago so now it's a network printer and > any computer in the house can use it. We bought a 4000 series from HP which had a jam-and-burn-paper feature. HP couldn't/wouldn't fix it. We eventually dumped it and don't know anyone we let buy another 4000. I don't think it jammed a lot more often than other printers of its time, but its habit of burning the paper when it did so was not a good thing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:43:01 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: [OT] Thieving printer manufacturers was: Re: Shouldn't we be Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <464CA8F8.9030104@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> About ten years ago, I bought an HP LJ4000 with a Duplex unit. I'm >> still using it though I'm only on my second toner cartridge. I suppose >> its' overkill for a home printer but it works and works well. I added a >> Jet Direct card a couple of years ago so now it's a network printer and >> any computer in the house can use it. > > We bought a 4000 series from HP which had a jam-and-burn-paper > feature. HP couldn't/wouldn't fix it. We eventually dumped it > and don't know anyone we let buy another 4000. > > I don't think it jammed a lot more often than other printers of > its time, but its habit of burning the paper when it did so was > not a good thing. > He, I just took my HP LaserJet 4/M-Plus out of service a few weeks ago. Not because it didn't worked anymore, but it was replaces with a smaller unit (LJ-1020). I've never seen a laser printer as robust as the HP LaserJet 4 line of printers... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.272 ************************