INFO-VAX Sun, 10 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 316 Contents: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? InfoVAX gateway (was Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet?) quiet RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SSH login with expired password RE: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time VMS 7.3 VAX, TCPIP 5.3: error in FINGER Re: VMS 7.3 VAX, TCPIP 5.3: error in FINGER ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 03:46:48 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: June 9, 2007 3:07 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> As I mentioned earlier, it is not the roll-out of the patches that > is > >> the issue. Heck, that is relatively minor as you can even easily do > >> this with all of the Windows security patches. > >> > >> The big issue by far is the re-certification and testing of > important > >> business applications with all of the monthly OS security patches. > >> > >> For small and some medium businesses with small numbers of users, > >> this is not an issue as they simply apply the patch and reboot. If > a > >> OS security patch breaks the kernel or an application, then they > can > >> simply roll-back with minimal impact as the numbers of users are > not > >> that large. > >> > >> That is usually not the case with large IT environments with > mission > >> critical environments. >=20 > > OK. Just so you guys "get it", here is a real example. > > > > A system software upgrade is tested and validated. To be deployed > at 8 > > different sites over a period of 1 year, sheduled deployment > determined by > > PM downtime of 24*7 manufacturing operations - which by its nature > is > > planned a long way in advance. > > > > 2 smaller sites go live before a memory leak rears its ugly head in > a large > > site, number 3, crashing the application and stalling part of the > factory > > shipping processes. The resulting cleanup operation consumes DBA > and > > sysadmin time at every occurrance and occurs at different intervals > > depending on the transaction volume of the factory - the larger the > factory, > > the larger the problem. We are talking daily on a large factory. > > > > The IT troubleshooters get on the job and isolate the error, create > a simple > > reproducer and report it as priority 1 bug to the supplier, who duly > fix it > > within 3 days! The IT guys check out the reproducer and the > instances of > > live code where the problem was evident and verify that the supplier > patch > > has indeed solved the problem. > > > > Q1: Which version of the software was installed at the following 5 > sites? > > Q:2 When was the software updated at the 3 already installed sites? > > > > A1: The broken version. > > A2: Never (yet) > > > > In order to release a systems software upgrade, the entire > application must > > pass certification. This is an $7B pr. year manufacturing company - > a > > houshold name - SOX compliant and accutely aware of the necessity > for > > application certification before deployment. > > > > Why you ask? > > > > Because the cost of bringing a larger factory down completely is > like > > $50,000 per hour, while the cost of having a DBA cleanup the stalls > is zero, > > because he is already sitting there and it is in his job > description. The > > risk is evaluated, the costs apportioned and the decision made. A > > management no-brainer, because the certification requirement and > procedures > > are very clear and unambiguous. As bizarre as it seems, this is the > daily > > life of people who maintain and operate the big iron that controls > large > > manufacturing - not just that particular site. > > > > When the application is recertified on the patched vendor software, > the > > patch to the vendor software will be applied to the production > environment > > in a controlled and phased manner - not before. > > > > Here endeth the lesson in reality for you guys who wouldn't know a > real > > high-availability corporate production environment if it landed on > your > > head! >=20 > But the conclusion is that Kerry arguments against Linux does not > hold water. >=20 > Because if those systems where running Linux - how many security > patches would have been installed on them in that period ? >=20 > Arne Thank you - you just made my point.=20 :-) With 5-20 Linux (and Windows) security patches being released each and = every month, this company would not get approval from the business units = to test and apply all these patches against all the important apps, so = the business would have to risk not being hacked with all of these well = documented security patches not being applied. With 50-60% of all security issues being internal related, that is a = huge risk. And think about this in the financial sector with systems running = billions (and in some OpenVMS systems, trillions) of $'s through their = systems daily, weekly, monthly. With all of the internal people taking = laptops, PDA's back and forth to home, on the road and work etc all open = for Trojans, worms etc that are looking for systems with documented = holes to exploit. It really blows me away that serious financial institutions can justify = moving to Linux (Windows) with so many monthly security patches being = released each and every month. I can only believe that the managers involved have no idea of the = security issues their techies or those pushing these platforms are = exposing the business to.=20 Personally speaking, I would have to ask "how can these financial and = mission critical environments afford these platforms?" Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:06:41 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: InfoVAX gateway (was Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet?) quiet Message-ID: On 06/10/07 02:46, Main, Kerry wrote: [snip] Kerry, I don't know if it's cpqcorp.net or the Info-VAX<==>comp.os.vms Gateway, but something in your setup breaks threading. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 03:46:40 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: June 9, 2007 3:14 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > The challenge with Linux (and Windows) is the sheer volume of > monthly > > security patches and the impact they have on Operations and > QA/Testing > > is mind boggling. > > > > That is experience talking vs. "ignore the faults, because I can > manage > > my own small little world just fine, therefore all those other large > > shops struggling with little things like no App downtime, strict > > revision and config management and App re-cert testing processes > just do > > not know what they are doing .." >=20 > They know what they are doing. >=20 > A lot of them are moving towards Linux. >=20 Yes, but most are ignoring the monthly security patch issues. I can = almost guarantee that most senior IT managers have no idea that there = are so many monthly security patches for Linux. And those in the IT shop = that are promoting Linux as their new big thing are certainly not = raising any alarms either. > > So are you saying that this is what a med shop must do every month > for > > the 100+ Linux servers running all different versions of Linux? >=20 > They are not running 100 different versions of Linux more than they > are running 100 different versions of VMS or Solaris or z/OS. >=20 Let me rephrase this .. In my experience in collecting inventory and = version information for multi-platform consolidation projects, there are = very few shops (none that I have found to date) that are running the = same version of Linux on their many different Dev/Test/Prod Linux = environments. And these systems can number in the hundreds when you = factor in Dev/QA/Prod distributed environments in many different sites. Different IT groups have different versions and different commitments to = change and configuration management standards.=20 Now, having different version of OS is not so much an issue, but when = you have 5-20 security patches for Linux being released each and every = month, with different groups using different versions, it becomes a = nightmare on how to keep each of these different environments current = with the latest App and Kernel security patches.=20 And that does not even bring in the issues of testing the important Apps = with these security patches before they are released to Prod. For small-med shops, its not so much as big an issue if you have a = really well run IT shop with limited numbers of systems being maintained = by the same group. > > And > what > > do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns to apply > > these security patches? >=20 > They don't. >=20 Since typically no production shop can shut down important services = without getting approvals from the business, are you saying they don't = apply these monthly security patches? > > Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with > understanding > > the real Operations challenges when compared to more enterprise > class > > platforms. >=20 > Let us understand that out in the real world companies are moving > to Linux. >=20 Absolutely. But lets not pretend that Linux is going to take over the = world and that serious IT shops will not soon realize the real costs of = adopting a platform that has 5-20 security patches released each and = every month. > > And what do you think large companies use for their standard OS > > versions? Do you think they want 20+ different config's running all > > across their 100+ Linux servers? >=20 > They do the same for Linux as for VMs as for Solaris as for z/OS ... >=20 > Arne Yes, but these OS platforms (and that includes Solaris btw) do *not* = have 5-20 security patches released each and every month. Yes, all OS platforms have patches and bug fixes, but remember that = these are hugely different than security patches as most serious company = IT shops will always test and implement security patches when they are = released, but may decide to implement other patches and fixes perhaps = once per year (unless they have experienced a system crasher etc). And for those that think they can hide behind a good firewall and not = apply all these security patches, remember that 50-60% of all security = issues are internal related. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:25:23 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <8ZSai.59081$3L1.12062@newsfe14.lga> On 06/10/07 02:46, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- From: Arne Vajhøj >> [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] Sent: June 9, 2007 3:14 PM To: >> Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial >> Sector, also? >> >> Main, Kerry wrote: >>> The challenge with Linux (and Windows) is the sheer volume of >>> >> monthly >>> security patches and the impact they have on Operations and >> QA/Testing >>> is mind boggling. >>> >>> That is experience talking vs. "ignore the faults, because I >>> can >> manage >>> my own small little world just fine, therefore all those >>> other large shops struggling with little things like no App >>> downtime, strict revision and config management and App >>> re-cert testing processes >> just do >>> not know what they are doing .." >> They know what they are doing. >> >> A lot of them are moving towards Linux. >> > > Yes, but most are ignoring the monthly security patch issues. I > can almost guarantee that most senior IT managers have no idea > that there are so many monthly security patches for Linux. And > those in the IT shop that are promoting Linux as their new big > thing are certainly not raising any alarms either. > > >>> So are you saying that this is what a med shop must do every >>> month >> for >>> the 100+ Linux servers running all different versions of >>> Linux? >> They are not running 100 different versions of Linux more than >> they are running 100 different versions of VMS or Solaris or >> z/OS. >> > > Let me rephrase this .. In my experience in collecting inventory > and version information for multi-platform consolidation > projects, there are very few shops (none that I have found to > date) that are running the same version of Linux on their many > different Dev/Test/Prod Linux environments. And these systems can > number in the hundreds when you factor in Dev/QA/Prod distributed > environments in many different sites. Just like not all sites have their VMS systems running the same version of VMS, ACMS, Rdb, etc. > Different IT groups have different versions and different > commitments to change and configuration management standards. > > Now, having different version of OS is not so much an issue, but > when you have 5-20 security patches for Linux being released each > and every month, with different groups using different versions, > it becomes a nightmare on how to keep each of these different > environments current with the latest App and Kernel security > patches. You've beaten this dead horse into a maggot-infested pulp. > And that does not even bring in the issues of testing the > important Apps with these security patches before they are > released to Prod. > > For small-med shops, its not so much as big an issue if you have > a really well run IT shop with limited numbers of systems being > maintained by the same group. > > >>> And >> what >>> do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns >>> to apply these security patches? >> They don't. >> > > Since typically no production shop can shut down important > services without getting approvals from the business, are you > saying they don't apply these monthly security patches? > >>> Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with >> understanding >>> the real Operations challenges when compared to more >>> enterprise >> class >>> platforms. >> Let us understand that out in the real world companies are >> moving to Linux. >> > > Absolutely. But lets not pretend that Linux is going to take > over the world and that serious IT shops will not soon realize > the real costs of adopting a platform that has 5-20 security > patches released each and every month. According to my company's development group, our app runs significantly faster on Oracle/Linux than it does on Rdb/Alpha. The only reason you need 100s of distinct Linux boxes (unless you are a co-lo service) is a residual Windows mentality. 4-core x86-64 systems can handle a whole lot of simultaneous tasks, just as VMS can. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:50:29 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Message-ID: > Especially since Rdb (and VMS?) are licensed by the processor. Per processor or per core? Furthermore, where can one find a matrix of LTU prices for various OEs especially with redgard to PCL? (Sounds like buzzword-bingo crap (HP's not mine) already doesn't it?) Today, if I wanted a quote for ACMS or WebLogic on the various VMS configurations where would I go to find out? Cheers Richard Maher BTW. How can VMS support for blades (Stuffed if I know why C-class is different from any other class) be seen as anything other than a good thing? Isn't it a case of "Need more grunt? Stick in another blade."? Sounds pretty useful and cost effective to me. "Ron Johnson" wrote in message news:E%Kai.176475$mJ1.111387@newsfe22.lga... > On 06/09/07 13:23, JF Mezei wrote: > [snip] > > > > Since the concept of blades is really to deal with Windows' inability to > > run multiple applications (and hence have multiple windows machines), I > > never saw that much use for blades in a VMS environment. > > Especially since Rdb (and VMS?) are licensed by the processor. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 03:41:12 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Message-ID: <596eb$466bab1b$cef8887a$14192@TEKSAVVY.COM> Richard Maher wrote: > Isn't it a case of "Need more grunt? Stick in another blade."? Sounds pretty > useful and cost effective to me. Stick in another blade means build a totally new/different system with its own licences. It isn't like adding another CPU in a galaxy class machine. When blades can be interesting is if you have say 7 wintel boards on 8086s, and you can add one of them IA64 things into the same blade cabinet and run VMS on it. Whether this is cheaper overall I do not know, but you do save having to pay for a new cabinet and power supply. But HP might ding you for the other components like the special IO boards etc that go in the back. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:25:29 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Message-ID: <5d1rhjF32m83bU2@mid.individual.net> On 2007-06-09 20:23, "JF Mezei" wrote: > [...] > > Since the concept of blades is really to deal with Windows' inability to > run multiple applications (and hence have multiple windows machines), I > never saw that much use for blades in a VMS environment. Rack space consolidation -- at the expense of thermal 'challenges' in some cases ... Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:10:10 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Message-ID: In article , "Richard Maher" wrote: > .. (Stuffed if I know why C-class is >different from any other class) C-class blades are architecturally very similar to rx2660, rx3600, and rx6600. (They all use the same zx2 chipset, very similar firmware, and have a lot of I/O in common.) Previous Integrity blades are sufficiently different from other VMS systems, and far enough along in their lifespan, to be a much less appealing choice for VMS support. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:28:07 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Message-ID: In article <596eb$466bab1b$cef8887a$14192@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: >Richard Maher wrote: >> Isn't it a case of "Need more grunt? Stick in another blade."? Sounds pretty >> useful and cost effective to me. > >Stick in another blade means build a totally new/different system with >its own licences. That's a poor description of adding a new VMS system of any type. > It isn't like adding another CPU in a galaxy class >machine. Have you ever added another CPU to such a system? For starters, you have to shut down the OS and power off most or all of the system. Then you power it on and adjust the partition configuration. You might put the new CPUs in an existing parition, or make a new partition and a new instance of VMS. If it's a new system, you'll either need a new system disk, or you can boot it into an existing cluster and share an existing system disk. No matter what, you'll be installing more license units somewhere. >When blades can be interesting is if you have say 7 wintel boards on >8086s, and you can add one of them IA64 things into the same blade >cabinet and run VMS on it. Alas, that will never happen, at least at HP. HP's Proliant blades don't use them 8086 things, and never will. Of course, if you have a bunch of Proliant blades today, you can add an Integrity blade in the same enclosure running VMS. Or Windows. Or linux. Or HP-UX. Or some of each, if you insist. And you can do it on the fly, without shutting down the other blades. As in the Alpha case, for VMS blade systems, you'll have to provide a system disk to boot from, either private or shared. And you'll need to install some license PAKs -- significantly fewer than on Alpha, in most cases. > Whether this is cheaper overall I do not >know, but you do save having to pay for a new cabinet and power supply. You never have to pay for a new cabinet, unless your existing cabinet is full and you want to add more stuff. You never have to pay for a new blade enclosure, unless your existing enclosure is full and you want to add more blades. >But HP might ding you for the other components like the special IO >boards etc that go in the back. "Might"?? HP generally does charge money for hardware. Add-ons for blades are no different than add-ons for conventional servers in this respect. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:02:59 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OpenVMS Support for C-class Blades Message-ID: <7ESai.94025$vE1.45461@newsfe24.lga> On 06/10/07 01:50, Richard Maher wrote: >> Especially since Rdb (and VMS?) are licensed by the processor. > > Per processor or per core? All Alphas are single-core, aren't they?? Oh, right... This is IA64. Never mind. (Since our apps *are* migrating to Linux, Itanium just never enters my consciousness.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:21:18 +0200 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: <466ba681$0$327$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> Years ago I had severe damage by lightning that came in over the phone line. Toasted a moodem that was connected to a terminal server, from the terminal server the console transmitter and receiver chips of several systems were gone, as well as several ethernet controllers in the network. There was several thousands of dollars worth of damage, luckily it was covered by my insurance. Jur. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:55:50 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/09/07 21:01, JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > >> Think: EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) > > > > > > OK then, since EMP is most often associated with WMDs, I have to > > conclude that GOD has declare war against my computers :-) > > There is no God. Please let us know how you get on explaining that to an insurance company when they declare something an Act of God. :-) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:31:32 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: On 06/10/07 02:55, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 06/09/07 21:01, JF Mezei wrote: >>> David J Dachtera wrote: >>>> Think: EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) >>> >>> OK then, since EMP is most often associated with WMDs, I have to >>> conclude that GOD has declare war against my computers :-) >> There is no God. > > Please let us know how you get on explaining that to an insurance > company when they declare something an Act of God. :-) They're fundamentalist young-world Bible-thumpers who finance $27M Kentucky creationism museums? http://www.creationmuseum.org/ -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 06:08:35 -0700 From: Rambo Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: <1181480915.099485.173390@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Well, a similar thing happened to me at work two years ago, during "storm of century" in Poland. except it wasn't "near miss", it was a direct hit. We have lost electricity for nearly 6 hours after that. Results: - $5000 ATM switch busted, wouldn't boot, wouldn't squeak (wish it went to my collection) - HP Ethernet switch started loosing packets, - two SuperStacks II, both made something like this: BUZZZZ-zz---ZZZ, one had 4 ports fried, another "just" two and lost management ability. - one computer lost EtherExpress Pro/100 ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 2007 14:41:44 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: <5d2gt7F32qi14U2@mid.individual.net> In article <466ba681$0$327$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: > Years ago I had severe damage by lightning that came in over the phone line. > Toasted a moodem that was connected to a terminal server, from the terminal > server the console transmitter and receiver chips of several systems were gone, > as well as several ethernet controllers in the network. There was several > thousands of dollars worth of damage, luckily it was covered by my insurance. > Many years ago I had a lightening strike near my house. It blew up my Z80 based micro that was turned off but plugged in at the time. It didn't even reboot the PDP-11 that was running right next to it. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:49:20 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: <466C2B90.90472975@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Think: EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse) > > OK then, since EMP is most often associated with WMDs ...which is, of course erroneous since WMD (read: thermo-nuclear devices) do not have an exclusive on this. AM radios make excellent detectors to see if there's lightning in the area. The "crackle" heard on the radio is caused by the electro-magnetic pulse radiating from the bolt. Even old-style tube-powered electronic devices will produce an audible "thump" when powered on via a switch - this is due to the magnetic fields establishing themselves within various inductive devices within the unit (transformers, mostly). These days, a lot of folks use variacs to power them up slowly and reduce the start-up stress, since tubes and other components are no longer as available as they once were. > ..., I have to > conclude that GOD has declare war against my computers :-) Brash assumption? BTW: I envy you - we're heading back into a drought pattern similar to last year. We need rain rather badly. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:57:16 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: <466C2D6C.D9D3257A@spam.comcast.net> Rambo wrote: > > Well, a similar thing happened to me at work two years ago, during > "storm of century" in Poland. except it wasn't "near miss", it was a > direct hit. We have lost electricity for nearly 6 hours after that. > > Results: > - $5000 ATM switch busted, wouldn't boot, wouldn't squeak (wish it > went to my collection) > - HP Ethernet switch started loosing packets, > - two SuperStacks II, both made something like this: BUZZZZ-zz---ZZZ, > one had 4 ports fried, another "just" two and lost management ability. > - one computer lost EtherExpress Pro/100 I worked at a factory back in the middle 70's. A power pole just outside the plant took a direct hit. A fair amount of the electrical infrastructure inside the plant had to be replaced. While I worked there, had another stormy day. The sky grew so dark that the parking lot lights came on - we could see that through the frosted windows at the tops of the walls. Then, the power failed suddenly. Rather an eerie scene with no lights and the green-hued, darkened sky. A tornado had gone skipping across the area less than a mile south of the plant. "Exploded" numerous houses in the residential areas, just missing a high school, virtually obliterated the electrical substation that fed the industrial park. The plant was without power for three days. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:43:22 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article <466ba681$0$327$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, > Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: >> Years ago I had severe damage by lightning that came in over the phone line. >> Toasted a moodem that was connected to a terminal server, from the terminal >> server the console transmitter and receiver chips of several systems were gone, >> as well as several ethernet controllers in the network. There was several >> thousands of dollars worth of damage, luckily it was covered by my insurance. >> >Many years ago I had a lightening strike near my house. It blew up my >Z80 based micro that was turned off but plugged in at the time. It >didn't even reboot the PDP-11 that was running right next to it. :-) About two years, a lightning strike here took out a DSL modem, the NAT router attached to it, a satellite dish receiver and the electronics in the dish itself. I don't know how close the strike was, I wasn't here to witness it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:26:20 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > The Greeks had (have?) 4 words for /love/, the Latins two words for > /free/, and the Inuit 120+ words for /snow/. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A408467 "The Myth of the Eskimo Snow Lexicon" --------- Once the mythology has been dispensed with, counting the actual number of Eskimo snow words seems like it should be an easy task. At the moment, a good conservative estimate would probably be Boas' count of four, though it can likely be embellished, depending on how liberal one wants to be with what one considers equivalent to "snow"2. --------- -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:44:45 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: >On 06/09/07 11:54, Doug Phillips wrote: >[snip] >> There are subtle differences in cultures that just don't carry over. >> Even in one's native language certain words defy precise description. >> The word "love" has a meaning that everyone understands. Yet, >> countless words have been written about "love" and none have perfectly >> defined it to everyone's satisfaction. One person's love might be >> another person's lust or pity or envy or whatever. > >English can be a terribly imprecise language. > >The Greeks had (have?) 4 words for /love/, the Latins two words for >/free/, and the Inuit 120+ words for /snow/. > The idea that the Inuit have hundreds of words for snow is a myth see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow >Maybe Muslims have it right by not translating the Koran into any >other language. (Non-Arabic children must learn Arabic in addition >to their native tongue, and that's got to be good for development of >cognition.) > >> Reading is a personal experience. We form the book's world in our >> imagination and though we might all read the same book, our worlds are >> different. That's what the Bible and other Holy books are all about. >> Personal. >> >> But Adam really thought he could hide from God? What a dork! > >Remember, in those early chapters, God regularly took on physical >form to spend time with Adam. Thus, since children think they can >hide from their parents, and Adam & Eve saw God as human-like, and >did not have to work or worry, maybe they were childlike, as were >the Elois in /The Time Machine/. > David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >-- >Ron Johnson, Jr. >Jefferson LA USA > >Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:48:58 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: In article <1181408078.160581.117090@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >On Jun 9, 10:18 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <1181338337.766448.28...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >> >> >> >> >On Jun 8, 2:54 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> >wrote: >> >> JF Mezei wrote: >> >> > > >> > resolve some conundrum asked by kirk> >> >> >> > Mr Bob, >> >> >> > If humans are a creation of god, would you agree that it is an exquisite >> >> > work of art ? >> >> >> > If the human body is a work of art created by god, how come people hide >> >> > this work of art with clothes ? >> >> >> > Shouldn't everyone be walking around totally naked everywhere in order >> >> > to honour God's work instead of being ashamed of it and trying to hide >> >> > it ? Isn't it insulting to God that we would be ashamed of his creation ? >> >> >> > And, yes, that even includes being naked at the supermarket checkout >> >> > counter. >> >> >> PLEASE!!! Have you looked at the women in the supermarket lately? >> >> There are damned few that anyone would want to see naked! They're bad >> >> enough with clothes ON!! >> >> >Yuck! Double Yuck! I think I could deal with most naked women, but a >> >vision of all the naked hairy pot-bellied men just flashed through my >> >mind. Triple Yuck! >> >> >Actually JF, if you read Genesis, it wasn't until Adam & Eve ate the >> >forbidden fruit that they became ashamed and felt the need to cover >> >themselves. >> >> >That's the story, anyway, and that's what bob will probably say. >> >> But I think the question being asked is why eating the fruit of the tree of >> knowledge of good and evil should result in Adam and Eve feeling ashamed of >> their nakedness ? > >It was that damned genetically engineered fruit, I'll bet! Probably >screwed up our genes! (So, if God created everything, then that means >everything is genetically engineered.) > >Why did God put a tree like that in the garden in the first place? If >God is all knowing and all powerful, didn't he know they'd eat the >fruit? Yes a moments thought shows that this is a setup. It is interesting to contrast this Genesis story with the Greek Myth of Pandora. In Greek myth Pandora was specifically created to punish mankind (for accepting the gift of Fire from Prometheus) and was told never to open her box - but having been endowed with curiosity opened it releasing all the evils within (but closing it quickly enough to trap hope). The setup is an explicit part of the story and Pandora is an unwitting pawn of the Gods. The villain of the piece is Zeus who set everything up as a punishment. In Genesis the setup is still there - An all powerful God didn't need to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. The story then proceeds in a parallel fashion with a warning not to eat of the tree and a temptation (delivered through the agency of the serpent rather than directly through inbuilt curiosity in Eve). However in Genesis the setup is obscured and Eve and the Serpent are cast as the villains. The end result in both cases is the same - suffering for Mankind. However whereas in Greek Mythology Zeus' motivation is explicitly to punish Mankind it is unclear why God sets up Adam and Eve in Genesis. > And, could Adam really hide from God? So on and so on... Books >have been written. > >The Bible is a morality play. If you start picking apart the logic, >you'll miss the story. If you just read the story and try to imagine >the way the world was thousands of years ago when it was first told, >you find that the logic isn't that important. Whether it's "the divine >word of God" or simple wisdom and guidance passed from one generation >to the next in a carrot & stick format doesn't change what it says. > True but JF was aiming this at Bob who apparently believes the Bible is literal history written by God rather than a story written by men or a morality play. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >People will discuss and argue about religion as long as there are >people. I'll go out on a limb here and make a prediction: > >The absolute truth about God will not be discovered within the >lifetime of anyone alive today, or any descendant of anyone living >today. > >> What is inherently evil about the naked human body ? >> > >Don't know. Seen some wicked bodies and known some evil people, but >never seen an evil body without an evil mind inside. > >> >Some >> >other religions have similar stories, and some people do run around >> >fairly naked. The need to protect ones sensitive areas from harm, >> >though, is just a common sense thing. >> >> True but it is interesting that in Genesis Adam and Eve are afraid because >> of their nakedness not because they have disobeyed God >> >> Genesis 3:10 (Adam talking to God) >> >> " >> And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was >> naked; and I hid myself. >> " > >There have been many discussions about the interpretation. afraid/ >apprehensive/fearful >naked/exposed/revealed >and on and on. > >A minor shift in just a few words that have a less than precise >meaning anyway can dramatically change the story. Even someone raised >speaking two languages often can't precisely translate one to the >other. > >Through how many people has the story passed? Who changed something or >tried to clarify a phrase here or there? The original story teller? >The following generations who passed the stories on? The first person >to write the stories down? The people who transcribed them throughout >the ages? The translators? Or maybe it's like the radicals believe: >You can't change the words because God would strike you down if you >did. Don't know. Don't expect to ever find out. > >There are subtle differences in cultures that just don't carry over. >Even in one's native language certain words defy precise description. >The word "love" has a meaning that everyone understands. Yet, >countless words have been written about "love" and none have perfectly >defined it to everyone's satisfaction. One person's love might be >another person's lust or pity or envy or whatever. > >Reading is a personal experience. We form the book's world in our >imagination and though we might all read the same book, our worlds are >different. That's what the Bible and other Holy books are all about. >Personal. > >But Adam really thought he could hide from God? What a dork! > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:11:42 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <2URai.1755$ZA.1033@newsb.telia.net> P. Sture wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> The Greeks had (have?) 4 words for /love/, the Latins two words for >> /free/, and the Inuit 120+ words for /snow/. > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A408467 > > "The Myth of the Eskimo Snow Lexicon" > > --------- > Once the mythology has been dispensed with, counting the actual number > of Eskimo snow words seems like it should be an easy task. At the > moment, a good conservative estimate would probably be Boas' count of > four, though it can likely be embellished, depending on how liberal one > wants to be with what one considers equivalent to "snow"2. > --------- > These are words used by eskimos on Greenland (language = yupik): qanuk, snowflake kaneq, frost kanevvluk, light snow (also light rain) natquik, snow in drowes nevluk, show that "sticks" aniu, sow on the ground muruaneq, deap and lose snow qetrar, hard/frosen snow on top of lose snow nutaryuk, newly fallen snow qanisqineq, snow floating on water qengaruk, snow... utvak, a (cut out) block of snow navcaq, a formation of snow tha will soon fall apart pirta, snow storm pirtpag, hard snow storm And these are (some of the)words for snow used by the sames in nordern nordic coutries. I have translated a few of them : gálav, snow that the skies sinks deap into. guolldo, snow storm habllek jiegnga muohta njáhtso, wet snow ridne, snow in the threes ruohkadagá siebla, wet snow in the spring time sjålkkå, stramped, flat and hard snow soavlle, lake water mixed with snow on top of ice suohpa, a bridge of snow over water in the summer. sängásj tjarvva tjiegar tsievve, hard snow that the raindears can't get through vahtsa, just a little newly fallen snow åppås, untuched nowely fallen snow As one can see, these are realy different words, not just other words written together (like in the swedish "nysnö" made up from "ny" (=new) and "snö" (=snow)... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:19:36 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <1181477976.454093.231900@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 6:48 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > The end result in both cases is the same - suffering for Mankind. However > whereas in Greek Mythology Zeus' motivation is explicitly to punish Mankind > it is unclear why God sets up Adam and Eve in Genesis. It is very clear ... God setup created Adam in his image, and like the angels in heaven were tempted and had to prove themselves, Adam and Eve had to do the same ... God even told them in His warning that if you eat from that tree you will die ... it couldn't be much clear or simpler than that, but they instead chose to believe the lies of the prince of lies ... the temptation was the same on that the devil uses on everyone, pride of life ... that you will be like God, which is want he wanted and still wants ... everyone has to choose their master, and knowing what I know, I would choose a loving God every time over hell and the lake of fire ... God has a set of rules that must be followed or evil results ... and look all around you today at the results of breaking Gods rules ... no way do I call this heaven! If you love God, your creator, you will do what He asks, but if you insist on being God, then you will be put outside His universe in the lake of fire ... God does not want a bunch of mind numbed robots serving Him, which is why even though He knows all He allows us to make our own choice on this matter ... where you end up will be by your own choice ... God has proved His love for you by sending His only Son to die for your sins ... and when His Son soon returns, He promises a world of no tears, no sickness and no sorrow ... we have all of these now because of Adam and Eves and our own continued revolt againset God by wanting to be one, and not letting Him be ... your current predicament is the result of sin ... the only question is, who will be your God ... why would you want to not serve your Creator and go againset Him? You can read about the life of His Son from many witnesses who tell of Jesus who did nothing but love and heal people, but they instead nailed Him to a cross! He saind those who have seen Him have seen the Father ... so God is love ... the prince of lies on the other hand is trying to pull you apart from your loving Creator ... he is not called the destroyer for nothing ... he is out to kill and destroy you and all of man because he does not want you to spend eternity with God in heaven ... this is who Adam and Eve listened to, and God let them be their own gods, and you now are seeing the results of sin ... sin destroys ... I think the first choice is obvious, but many will choose the latter unfortunately but will have nobody to blame but themselves ... God is allowing YOU to choose ... choose life so you do not end of in the group of those who are wailing and knashing teeth, because then it will be too late! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:57:11 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <1181480231.662049.301890@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 8, 3:24 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > resolve some conundrum asked by kirk> > > Mr Bob, > > If humans are a creation of god, would you agree that it is an exquisite > work of art ? > > If the human body is a work of art created by god, how come people hide > this work of art with clothes ? > > Shouldn't everyone be walking around totally naked everywhere in order > to honour God's work instead of being ashamed of it and trying to hide > it ? Isn't it insulting to God that we would be ashamed of his creation ? > > And, yes, that even includes being naked at the supermarket checkout > counter. here are your answers ... http://www.michaeljournal.org/dressadam.htm http://www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/sin/afraid.html http://www.spreadinglight.com/sermons/h-l/justice.html http://www.bible-knowledge.com/Adam-and-Eve.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:56:31 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <1181494591.286212.290240@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 9, 12:54 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Jun 9, 10:18 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > > In article <1181338337.766448.28...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > > >On Jun 8, 2:54 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > >wrote: > > >> JF Mezei wrote: > > >> > > >> > resolve some conundrum asked by kirk> > [...] > > But I think the question being asked is why eating the fruit of the tree of > > knowledge of good and evil should result in Adam and Eve feeling ashamed of > > their nakedness ? > > It was that damned genetically engineered fruit, I'll bet! Probably > screwed up our genes! (So, if God created everything, then that means > everything is genetically engineered.) > > Why did God put a tree like that in the garden in the first place? If > God is all knowing and all powerful, didn't he know they'd eat the > fruit? And, could Adam really hide from God? So on and so on... Books > have been written. Looks like an attempt to explain the world as we see it to me. > The Bible is a morality play. If you start picking apart the logic, > you'll miss the story. If you just read the story and try to imagine > the way the world was thousands of years ago when it was first told, > you find that the logic isn't that important. Whether it's "the divine > word of God" or simple wisdom and guidance passed from one generation > to the next in a carrot & stick format doesn't change what it says. Well, maybe parts of it. A lot of it looks like it's meant to be a historical account in addition to the explaining parts. Where's the morality play in the endless description of the tabernacle? > People will discuss and argue about religion as long as there are > people. I'll go out on a limb here and make a prediction: > > The absolute truth about God will not be discovered within the > lifetime of anyone alive today, or any descendant of anyone living > today. > > > What is inherently evil about the naked human body ? > > Don't know. Seen some wicked bodies and known some evil people, but > never seen an evil body without an evil mind inside. ??? > > > >Some > > >other religions have similar stories, and some people do run around > > >fairly naked. The need to protect ones sensitive areas from harm, > > >though, is just a common sense thing. > > > True but it is interesting that in Genesis Adam and Eve are afraid because > > of their nakedness not because they have disobeyed God > > > Genesis 3:10 (Adam talking to God) > > > " > > And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was > > naked; and I hid myself. > > " Again, the explanation hypothesis explains this. Remember, they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, not the Tree of Moral Tales or the Tree of Moral Truths or what have you. > There have been many discussions about the interpretation. afraid/ > apprehensive/fearful > naked/exposed/revealed > and on and on. > > A minor shift in just a few words that have a less than precise > meaning anyway can dramatically change the story. Even someone raised > speaking two languages often can't precisely translate one to the > other. It is evident that translations can't be trusted 100%. There are sometimes big differences among them. > > Through how many people has the story passed? Who changed something or > tried to clarify a phrase here or there? The original story teller? > The following generations who passed the stories on? The first person > to write the stories down? The people who transcribed them throughout > the ages? The translators? Or maybe it's like the radicals believe: > You can't change the words because God would strike you down if you > did. Don't know. Don't expect to ever find out. > > There are subtle differences in cultures that just don't carry over. > Even in one's native language certain words defy precise description. > The word "love" has a meaning that everyone understands. Yet, > countless words have been written about "love" and none have perfectly > defined it to everyone's satisfaction. One person's love might be > another person's lust or pity or envy or whatever. > > Reading is a personal experience. We form the book's world in our > imagination and though we might all read the same book, our worlds are > different. That's what the Bible and other Holy books are all about. > Personal. > > But Adam really thought he could hide from God? What a dork! C'mon. Don't be so harsh on the poor guy. He was the first man! What experience does he have to draw upon? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:10:46 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: > > C'mon. Don't be so harsh on the poor guy. He was the first man! What > experience does he have to draw upon? > > AEF > > I guess he could have asked his father, as anyone else does... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:01:59 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68EBE.15EB1E39@SendSpamHere.ORG> I have been using SAMBA on my systems for some time. It's a kludge. Yesterday, I assisted a site in updated their V7.2-2 system to V8.3. Mostly as a test to see what was needed to get them up in production on V8.3. Since there is no more PathWorks or Advanced Server, they were interested in trying SAMBA. At home, I have my Powerbook and I can share files with VMS (some files ;) ). When I configured SAMBA to serve one user directory at this site, this user tried to open a text file using whatever one would use on a Weendoze box to open up a text file (NoteEdit?). The text previewed as if it was typed with- out ever hitting a carriage return. I then connected to this exact same share with my Powerbook and the data was just fine. Go figya! This user said that with PathWorks, they can open the same types of files (most of these are reports written by their business apps) and they appear as if carriage returns were there. Is there some hidded SAMBA config file attribute to tell it how to send a regular VMS file (one you'd create in EDT for example) in a format that Weendoze will handle it? I didn't see anything in the SMB.CONF-TEMPLATE which seemed to be of any help. Also, if SAMBA is going to be a replacement for PathWorks, HP should provide some utility to read whatever file is used to store configur- ation in PathWorks and write the SMB.CONF file. This site has many users that rely on PathWorks. Trying to redo all of the configuration in the SMB.CONF file is going to be tedious and error prone. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:48:24 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: On 06/10/07 07:01, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > I have been using SAMBA on my systems for some time. It's a kludge. > > Yesterday, I assisted a site in updated their V7.2-2 system to V8.3. > Mostly as a test to see what was needed to get them up in production > on V8.3. Since there is no more PathWorks or Advanced Server, they > were interested in trying SAMBA. At home, I have my Powerbook and I > can share files with VMS (some files ;) ). When I configured SAMBA > to serve one user directory at this site, this user tried to open a > text file using whatever one would use on a Weendoze box to open up > a text file (NoteEdit?). The text previewed as if it was typed with- > out ever hitting a carriage return. I then connected to this exact > same share with my Powerbook and the data was just fine. Go figya! > This user said that with PathWorks, they can open the same types of > files (most of these are reports written by their business apps) and > they appear as if carriage returns were there. Macintosh text files are CR-delimited, whereas DOS text files are CRLF and Unix (except OS X) text files are LF delimited. I did find this, but it's 5 years old. Note the last, VMS-specific paragraph. Maybe it's been resolved since then? http://lists.samba.org/archive/samba-technical/2002-February/019692.html > Is there some hidded SAMBA config file attribute to tell it how to > send a regular VMS file (one you'd create in EDT for example) in a > format that Weendoze will handle it? I didn't see anything in the > SMB.CONF-TEMPLATE which seemed to be of any help. > > Also, if SAMBA is going to be a replacement for PathWorks, HP should > provide some utility to read whatever file is used to store configur- > ation in PathWorks and write the SMB.CONF file. This site has many > users that rely on PathWorks. Trying to redo all of the configuration > in the SMB.CONF file is going to be tedious and error prone. > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:21:53 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68EC9.3F4E9F4F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , Ron Johnson writes: {...snip...} >Macintosh text files are CR-delimited, whereas DOS text files are >CRLF and Unix (except OS X) text files are LF delimited. > >I did find this, but it's 5 years old. Note the last, VMS-specific >paragraph. Maybe it's been resolved since then? >http://lists.samba.org/archive/samba-technical/2002-February/019692.html Written by Malmberg! Thanks, this explains what is being seen but it still does not answer why HP is pushing it as a PathWorks replacement *IF* it doesn't work. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:00:20 -0700 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <1181484020.617583.7740@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 16:19:33 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68EE2.10E93C1F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1181484020.617583.7740@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: > > >I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we >will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same services they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site is on an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any "modern/sup- ported" version of OpenVMS. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:30:54 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <2HVai.21966$6z4.6878@newsfe19.lga> On 06/10/07 11:19, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1181484020.617583.7740@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: >> >> I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we >> will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. > > In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same services > they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site is on > an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any "modern/sup- > ported" version of OpenVMS. You could always migrate that site to Linux!!!! :P -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:41:11 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <1181493671.525506.295170@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 11:19 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1181484020.617583.7...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: > > >I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we > >will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. > > In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same services > they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site is on > an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any "modern/sup- > ported" version of OpenVMS. > I suspect it's more of a license cost issue. The newest PW/AS runs on the newest VMS (Alpha): >From the kit: Release Date: 03-OCT-2006 Kit Name: ADVANCSERV-V0703-B.ZIP Kit Applies To: OpenVMS ALPHA V7.3-2, V8.2 and V8.3 I agree with you about Samba. I have people who would move to IA tomorrow if the middleware & applications were there. As it is, they'll probably end up being another VMS loss story. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:03:21 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <466C2ED9.A7048507@spam.comcast.net> VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > In article , Ron Johnson writes: > {...snip...} > >Macintosh text files are CR-delimited, whereas DOS text files are > >CRLF and Unix (except OS X) text files are LF delimited. > > > >I did find this, but it's 5 years old. Note the last, VMS-specific > >paragraph. Maybe it's been resolved since then? > >http://lists.samba.org/archive/samba-technical/2002-February/019692.html > > Written by Malmberg! Thanks, this explains what is being seen but it > still does not answer why HP is pushing it as a PathWorks replacement > *IF* it doesn't work. Has CIFS officialy been released as a supported product? ...or is it still in development/field-test? CIFS(Samba) is simply an implementation of Micro$lop's SMB protocol/services. It does not provide for translation between non-stream RMS formats (Seq/Var, Indexed, Relative, etc.) and what non-VMS systems expect to see in a byte-stream file. I'm not sure if PathWorks ever did, either. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 04:59:31 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: SSH login with expired password Message-ID: <1181476771.937923.190600@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 6, 6:33 am, "Rich Whalen" wrote: > "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" > wrote in messagenews:f45pf1$310$1@online.de... > > > > > > > In article > > <3f119ada0706051517h5b454272g56596c0fcd882...@mail.gmail.com>, DeanW > > writes: > > >> Scenario: new user account with pre-expired password can't log in via > >> SSH. > >> This worked with TCPIP 5.4, after setting the following: > > > How difficult would it be to port SSH so that it is more VMS like? The > > other TCPIP stuff is not perfect, but has a more or less VMS look and > > feel to it. It would be nice if SYS$ANNOUNCE and SYS$WELCOME worked > > with SSH like with TELNET, if SFTP weren't so restrictive about file > > formats etc (at least for VMS--VMS transfers) and so on. Also, with > > TELNET it is possible to log in remotely and do a shutdown with reboot. > > Nice for remote maintenance. As far as I know, that doesn't work with > > SSH. > > The SSH2 protocol has provisions to convey the SYS$ANNOUNCE and SYS$WELCOME > messages at the appropriate times. I do not know if TCP/IP Services port > uses them; Process Software's port does. > > The SFTP protocol has the ability to pass arbitrary file characteristics on > file open. There are very few implementations that use this functionality. > Process Software's port uses this functionality to retain file > characteristics when transfering between VMS systems. > > Making the above changes (additions) to the source that we started from was > not overly difficult, but did take some time. It also takes time to merge > the changes in again each time we get updated code from our supplier. The > TCP/IP developers are most likely deciding to spend their time on other > parts of the TCP/IP Services software.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - To add to your point, both the TCP/IP stack as well as the SSH client need to support this feature. We recently ran into this eact problem and it was fixed only after we installed TCPware patches from PSC - AND- Reflection patches from WRQ. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:25:42 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Story Time Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: June 9, 2007 6:09 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Story Time >=20 > In article > t>, > "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] On > >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > >> Sent: June 8, 2007 12:54 PM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: Story Time > >>=3D20 > >> In article > >> >=20 [snip ...] > > > > Certainly nothing wrong with this GUI picture. In fact, if the Admin > > side has been keeping up, they may even be monitoring and managing > the > > OpenVMS back end with Java or Windows based GUI's from client side > > desktops e.g. Availability Manager or OpenVMS Console Manager or > other > > client side GUI's available for managing OpenVMS. >=20 > All of which reduces the visibility of VMS and with HP telling no one > about it, is it any wonder that so many people think VMS is dead > already? >=20 > bill >=20 So, do you think the University should put a character call interface in front of the Operational folks instead of a nice GUI front end just so they know they are running OpenVMS?=20 Does this not sound like running Windows applications from the CMD prompt? Or forcing OPS users to run UNIX applications from a shell prompt? How many UNIX environment are maintained by front line admins with web based front ends?=20 Point is that, regardless of the platforms, while experienced Sys Admins will typically use a character cell, in order to make the front line support issues less of an issue, they put GUI's in place for doing some of the more mundane monitoring and managing tasks - same goes for OpenVMS. The point I was making is that from all of your posts, you indicated that OpenVMS seemed to be almost gone at your University. In fact, OpenVMS is running the most important environment (by far) which likely every admin person and many students use extensively. Academic (your world) and Business Admin (Banner world) are two different worlds in most Universities I have been involved with.=20 The heat the Admin folks take if Banner even burps is huge. The Academic world typically maintains their environment on a much less critical basis. The University I was just recently involved with was recently hit with "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no excuses!" . and this was a direct mandate from the Chancellor.=20 In other words, rebooting for monthly security patches on a regular basis that is common with other platforms like Windows / Linux is a practice that has gone away for the Admin side.=20 Re: ignoring security patches to maintain availability - while you might think University settings are not hacker rich, I would beg to differ, but perhaps your University is different than those I have been involved with. And by the way, while this University Admin dept was looking at moving a few of their low priority Solaris environments to Linux, the idea of migrating Banner from their current Solaris environment to Linux scared the Admin folks so much that I suspect they will not do it for a very long time (if ever). Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:34:10 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article <5d0mvjF31rbg8U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" writes: > > In article , > > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > > > >> > > >> > Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", > >> > > >> > >> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. > >> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular > >> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far > >> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way > >> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box > >> is better then a PC, of course. But what the > >> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? > >> > > > > It's about choice. Pure and simple. > > > > I can also argue that a Mac with OS X is a far better choice for many > > things than a Windows PC. > > And how is a Mac running OS X any better than any other Unix desktop > solution? > Cough- I've got an OS X laptop :-) At the time I bought it, I perceived both Linux and Unix support for laptops to be weak. I have read that Linux has got better in that regard, but have the Unix alternatives also done so? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:36:56 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/10/07 06:25, Main, Kerry wrote: [snip] >> All of which reduces the visibility of VMS and with HP telling no one >> about it, is it any wonder that so many people think VMS is dead >> already? >> >> bill >> > > So, do you think the University should put a character call interface in > front of the Operational folks instead of a nice GUI front end just so > they know they are running OpenVMS? Yes! It's damned hard to run a DCL script or FC from a point-n- drool front-end. > Does this not sound like running Windows applications from the CMD > prompt? Or forcing OPS users to run UNIX applications from a shell > prompt? > > How many UNIX environment are maintained by front line admins with web > based front ends? And how many are poorly administered? > Point is that, regardless of the platforms, while experienced Sys Admins > will typically use a character cell, in order to make the front line > support issues less of an issue, they put GUI's in place for doing some > of the more mundane monitoring and managing tasks - same goes for > OpenVMS. Gee, how do you *become* experienced? Certainly not by pointing and drooling. [snip] > > The heat the Admin folks take if Banner even burps is huge. The Academic > world typically maintains their environment on a much less critical > basis. The University I was just recently involved with was recently hit > with "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no excuses!" > . and this was a direct mandate from the Chancellor. > [snip] > > And by the way, while this University Admin dept was looking at moving a > few of their low priority Solaris environments to Linux, the idea of > migrating Banner from their current Solaris environment to Linux scared > the Admin folks so much that I suspect they will not do it for a very > long time (if ever). And our ex-mainframer CIO said, "Linux? Never! It's a toy!" It's was brought in for non-critical stuff, performed well, he saw the cost savings vs. HP-UX, and in came more Linux, higher up the food-chain. It's happening whether you like it or not. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 2007 14:05:40 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d2epkF32epc8U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <5d0mvjF31rbg8U2@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article , >> "P. Sture" writes: >> > In article , >> > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >> >> > >> >> >> >> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >> >> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >> >> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >> >> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >> >> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >> >> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >> >> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >> >> >> > >> > It's about choice. Pure and simple. >> > >> > I can also argue that a Mac with OS X is a far better choice for many >> > things than a Windows PC. >> >> And how is a Mac running OS X any better than any other Unix desktop >> solution? >> > > Cough- I've got an OS X laptop :-) > > At the time I bought it, I perceived both Linux and Unix support for > laptops to be weak. I have read that Linux has got better in that > regard, but have the Unix alternatives also done so? I have been running FreeBSD on laptops since before Mac abandoned Power in favor of x86. I currently have both a Toshiba Satellite and am IBM Thinkpad running it and my boss has a current Lenovo. None of these systems jave anywhere near the problems (both hardware and software) as the one faculty member who actually has a Mac laptop. And we don't even need to go into all the problems getting his Mac to play in our overall infrastructure. The mere existence of this box has delayed the switch to secure wireless by a year while we waited for the Mac to catchup with all the other systems. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 2007 14:08:19 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d2eujF32epc8U2@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>> >>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>> >>> >>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >>> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >>> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >>> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >>> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >>> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >>> >>> Jan-Erik. >> >> VMS is not too good with office applications like word processing, or >> spreadsheets. AFAIK there's no Visio for VMS or any similar tool. >> >> Windoze and PCs have their place. Render unto Caesar. . . . > > *Most* tasks you can do with MS Windows you can also accomplish with > "desktop Unix" (Linux or OS X, but *not* FreeBSD). Sometimes, > though, you'll have to do them a bit differently. And just what "desktop" function is it that you can do with Linux or OS X that you can't do with FreeBSD? Being as OS X is BSD userland, I would be amazed if there was something one could do that the other couldn't. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 2007 14:35:48 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d2gi4F32qi14U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] On >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: June 9, 2007 6:09 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Story Time >>=20 >> In article >> > t>, >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] On >> >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> >> Sent: June 8, 2007 12:54 PM >> >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >> Subject: Re: Story Time >> >>=3D20 >> >> In article >> >> >>=20 > > [snip ...] > >> > >> > Certainly nothing wrong with this GUI picture. In fact, if the Admin >> > side has been keeping up, they may even be monitoring and managing >> the >> > OpenVMS back end with Java or Windows based GUI's from client side >> > desktops e.g. Availability Manager or OpenVMS Console Manager or >> other >> > client side GUI's available for managing OpenVMS. >>=20 >> All of which reduces the visibility of VMS and with HP telling no one >> about it, is it any wonder that so many people think VMS is dead >> already? >>=20 >> bill >>=20 > > So, do you think the University should put a character call interface in > front of the Operational folks instead of a nice GUI front end just so > they know they are running OpenVMS?=20 Oh, it's non sequitor time!! Of course not. They should have desktop VMS in front of them and be running VMS from front to back. Oh wait, none of those desktop apps exist, sorry, I'll go back to sleep now. :-) > > Does this not sound like running Windows applications from the CMD > prompt? Or forcing OPS users to run UNIX applications from a shell > prompt? See above!! > > How many UNIX environment are maintained by front line admins with web > based front ends?=20 Not sure what that means. All my Unix servers that have regular users sport X frontends and work fine from the desktop without hiding what they actually are. As an admin, while I do periodically sue web graphical interfaces I find most admin stuff is quicker and easier fromt he command. For example: adding users. How long do tou think it would take to add the 500-600 users every semester using a graphical interface that dows them one at a time? I take the classlists sent to me by the Registrar, run them through a simple program I wrote (in about 15 minutes) and the output is a data file I pass as input to the "adduser" command resulting in all my new users being on the system in less than 5 minutes. What admins do is very different from what the data entry people in admissions or HR do. > > Point is that, regardless of the platforms, while experienced Sys Admins > will typically use a character cell, in order to make the front line > support issues less of an issue, they put GUI's in place for doing some > of the more mundane monitoring and managing tasks - same goes for > OpenVMS. I wasn't the one advocating character cell interfaces, you were. I was the one saying the GUI should be VMS and not some wimpy Windows Wwb toy so that the existence of VMS as the real reason for the businesses success was apparent and not hiden behind smoke and mirrors. > > The point I was making is that from all of your posts, you indicated > that OpenVMS seemed to be almost gone at your University. I, and others here, have said no such thing. We said VMS is gone from academia. The place that made future CIO's and IT Managers no longer males them aware of VMS's existence. And the one place where it is still in use in education it is totally hidden in such a manner that people think everything is done using Windows. All that just makes the decision to move to Windows completely easier when the time comes. If people don;t know that VMS is the core of their operation are they likely to defend it when the time time to move comes? And if you think the indians in the cubicles have any influence over the chiefs in the corner offices with the big windows, well, you are more out of touch with the business than I thought. > In fact, > OpenVMS is running the most important environment (by far) which likely > every admin person and many students use extensively. And none of them knows. All they know is "I do everythng on MS Windows". > > Academic (your world) and Business Admin (Banner world) are two > different worlds in most Universities I have been involved with.=20 Of course they are. I have also said that repeatedly. And which one has historically driven the direction of IT history? Did Unix get as far as it did because Universities in the 70's and 80's were using it for their administration? > > The heat the Admin folks take if Banner even burps is huge. The Academic > world typically maintains their environment on a much less critical > basis. The University I was just recently involved with was recently hit > with "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no excuses!" > . and this was a direct mandate from the Chancellor.=20 Bull crap (well, maybe not in that one case). Our president has never heard of VMS and probably doesn't know what Banner is either. Our Provost the same. BUt to move along your thread above, what was it the Chancellor said? "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no excuses!" Note, he didn't say VMS, he said Banner. So, what does that mean if (as I said I had heard) Banner moves to Windows? > > In other words, rebooting for monthly security patches on a regular > basis that is common with other platforms like Windows / Linux is a > practice that has gone away for the Admin side.=20 You keep harping on this. I don't re-boot my Unix boxes every month. I don't make changes that are not absolutely necessary in the during an academic semester. And, contrary to what many here would have people believe, the VMS systems here are taken down at regular intervals. > > Re: ignoring security patches to maintain availability - while you might > think University settings are not hacker rich, I would beg to differ, > but perhaps your University is different than those I have been involved > with. If soomething that is a threat were announced, I would likely patch it and reboot. But that happens so infrequently. The last time I had to do anything was the DST change and that was hardly what one would call a security problem. I didn't say we don;t have hackers, just that on a well run system, VMS or Unix, they can be controlled. > > And by the way, while this University Admin dept was looking at moving a > few of their low priority Solaris environments to Linux, the idea of > migrating Banner from their current Solaris environment to Linux scared > the Admin folks so much that I suspect they will not do it for a very > long time (if ever). I didn't know that Banner ran on Linux. And, I can understand their fear. I would be frightened by running anything important on Linux. But, again, I was talking about running Banner on Windows Server. I do not think you will find any IT manager who would balk at moving from any OS to Windows today and that includes moving from VMS. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:53:28 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <466C1068.8060303@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>> >>> >>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >>> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >>> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >>> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >>> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >>> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >>> >>> Jan-Erik. >> >> >> VMS is not too good with office applications like word processing, or >> spreadsheets. AFAIK there's no Visio for VMS or any similar tool. >> >> Windoze and PCs have their place. Render unto Caesar. . . . > > > *Most* tasks you can do with MS Windows you can also accomplish with > "desktop Unix" (Linux or OS X, but *not* FreeBSD). Sometimes, though, > you'll have to do them a bit differently. > As long as it remains cheaper/easier to do them on Windows. . . . The Unix box and maybe the O/S can be had cheaply. But. . . . The average moron can install and "configure" windows. And use it. Installing, configuring, and using any Unix is not a task for the faint hearted. Yes, I've installed and used IRIX, Solaris and RedHat. RedHat probably comes closest to being installable and usable by the average moron but not very close. I use Windoze where it makes sense to use Windoze: to manage my checkbook, to send and receive E-Mail, to read news, to write letters and address envelopes and to run a genealogy program (FamilyTreeMaker). You go to school for a week, at least, to learn how to install, configure and manage Unix or VMS! I move files back and forth between Windows and Unix, or Windows and VMS, or VMS and Unix, because some things are easier to do with the tools of a different O/S. If I want to know how many men in my family file were named William Belden, William Belding, William Beldin, or William Beldon (the family has used all four spellings, and more) Unix can count to four hundred with greater speed and ease than I can manage. I could also use VMS grep to count them but grep is not native to VMS, or at least not on the most recent version I have. Windoze, while perhaps the easiest to use and install, is not without its pitfalls. Can anyone explain why an HP Laserjet with a JetDirect card, connected ONLY via the network, is NOT a "network printer"?? Believe me, it's not, though the reason why is not clear to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:11:54 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: >Yes! It's damned hard to run a DCL script or FC from a point-n- >drool front-end. Can I borrow "point-n-drool"? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:43:04 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/10/07 09:05, Bill Gunshannon wrote: [snip] > the one faculty member who actually has a Mac laptop. And we don't even > need to go into all the problems getting his Mac to play in our overall > infrastructure. The mere existence of this box has delayed the switch > to secure wireless by a year while we waited for the Mac to catchup with > all the other systems. My cousin run an old "white" G3 iBook and her finance a MacBook (Pro?). Over Easter, it was trivial to get both connected to our wireless router using WPA. It automatically stored the WPA shared key in the Mac keyring. Your Uni probably has something more sophisticated, though. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:45:38 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/10/07 09:08, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: >> On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>>> >>>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >>>> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >>>> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >>>> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >>>> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >>>> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >>>> >>>> Jan-Erik. >>> VMS is not too good with office applications like word processing, or >>> spreadsheets. AFAIK there's no Visio for VMS or any similar tool. >>> >>> Windoze and PCs have their place. Render unto Caesar. . . . >> *Most* tasks you can do with MS Windows you can also accomplish with >> "desktop Unix" (Linux or OS X, but *not* FreeBSD). Sometimes, >> though, you'll have to do them a bit differently. > > And just what "desktop" function is it that you can do with Linux or > OS X that you can't do with FreeBSD? None. Just jerking your chain a little. :) > Being as OS X is BSD userland, > I would be amazed if there was something one could do that the other > couldn't. Sure. The Mac has a friendly GUI, and BSD is stuck with a 5 year old csh. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:57:24 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/10/07 09:53, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> >>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>> >>>>> >>>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>>> >>>> >>>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >>>> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >>>> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >>>> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >>>> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >>>> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >>>> >>>> Jan-Erik. >>> >>> >>> VMS is not too good with office applications like word processing, or >>> spreadsheets. AFAIK there's no Visio for VMS or any similar tool. >>> >>> Windoze and PCs have their place. Render unto Caesar. . . . >> >> >> *Most* tasks you can do with MS Windows you can also accomplish with >> "desktop Unix" (Linux or OS X, but *not* FreeBSD). Sometimes, though, >> you'll have to do them a bit differently. >> > > As long as it remains cheaper/easier to do them on Windows. . . . > > The Unix box and maybe the O/S can be had cheaply. > > But. . . . The average moron can install and "configure" windows. And > use it. > > Installing, configuring, and using any Unix is not a task for the faint > hearted. Yes, I've installed and used IRIX, Solaris and RedHat. RedHat > probably comes closest to being installable and usable by the average > moron but not very close. Both HPaq and Hell will gladly sell you boxes with pre-installed RedHate or Snoozy. > I use Windoze where it makes sense to use > Windoze: to manage my checkbook, to send and receive E-Mail, to read > news, to write letters and address envelopes and to run a genealogy > program (FamilyTreeMaker). With the exception of FamilyTreeMaker, all of the other tasks you mentioned can easily be accomplished using Linux or OS X. But not FreeBSD. *Definitely* not FreeBSD!!! And FamilyTreeMaker might even run on Linux & OS X using CrossOver Office. Even if it doesn't, there are (at least) 4 genealogy apps for Linux. But not FreeBSD. *Definitely* not FreeBSD!!! > You go to school for a week, at least, to > learn how to install, configure and manage Unix or VMS! Slowlaris, HP-SUX & VMS, but definitely not Linux. Well, ok, I take that back. A friend of mine just went to two weeks of class learning how to install Linux. *Big* waste of time, IMO. An old junky Pentinum 3 and a CentOS DVD are all you need to practice installing and running Linux, Oracle, etc etc. > I move files back and forth between Windows and Unix, or Windows and > VMS, or VMS and Unix, because some things are easier to do with the > tools of a different O/S. If I want to know how many men in my family > file were named William Belden, William Belding, William Beldin, or > William Beldon (the family has used all four spellings, and more) Unix > can count to four hundred with greater speed and ease than I can manage. > I could also use VMS grep to count them but grep is not native to VMS, > or at least not on the most recent version I have. > > Windoze, while perhaps the easiest to use and install, is not without > its pitfalls. Can anyone explain why an HP Laserjet with a JetDirect > card, connected ONLY via the network, is NOT a "network printer"?? > Believe me, it's not, though the reason why is not clear to me. If it's not, what is it? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:58:57 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5dVai.109954$NU1.24185@newsfe13.lga> On 06/10/07 10:11, Robert Deininger wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson > wrote: > > > >> Yes! It's damned hard to run a DCL script or FC from a point-n- >> drool front-end. > > Can I borrow "point-n-drool"? :-) It's not mine to give. I read it on Slashdot... -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 11:12:36 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/10/07 09:35, Bill Gunshannon wrote: [snip] > > Oh, it's non sequitor time!! Of course not. They should have desktop > VMS in front of them and be running VMS from front to back. Oh wait, > none of those desktop apps exist, sorry, I'll go back to sleep now. :-) A MicroVAX on every desk? Woo hoo! [snip] > they actually are. As an admin, while I do periodically sue web graphical > interfaces The proliferation of spurious lawsuits is the bane of our civilization. [snip] > > Of course they are. I have also said that repeatedly. And which one > has historically driven the direction of IT history? Did Unix get as > far as it did because Universities in the 70's and 80's were using it > for their administration? Excellent point. Even though you use FreeBSD. But I forgive you. [snip] > > I didn't know that Banner ran on Linux. And, I can understand their fear. > I would be frightened by running anything important on Linux. But, again, Whenever you feel afraid of Linux, repeat the /Litany Against Fear/: I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only Linux will remain. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:30:35 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: VMS 7.3 VAX, TCPIP 5.3: error in FINGER Message-ID: Has anyone else seen this? VMS 7.3 VAX, TCPIP 5.3, all ECOs applied. %SYSTEM-F-ROPRAND, reserved operand fault at PC=000028C1, PSL=03C00000 Improperly handled condition, image exit forced. Signal arguments Stack contents Number = 00000003 454C4156 Name = 00000454 20202020 000028C1 20202020 03C00000 00000004 00000000 00000020 00000008 00000040 00000020 00000020 Register dump R0 = 0015E43E R1 = 7FD0E3D8 R2 = 7FD0E4B9 R3 = 0015E410 R4 = 000B1300 R5 = 00000001 R6 = 00000CD0 R7 = 00000E32 R8 = 000B12D0 R9 = 000009A8 R10= 00000CD0 R11= 000B1148 AP = 7FD0E2EC FP = 7FD0E2AC SP = 7FD0E320 PC = 000028C1 PSL= 03C00000 The interesting thing is, I only get the error when FINGER has a particular account as its argument. (I get the error, for this account, from all accounts and for all VAXes in the cluster.) It is repeatable, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't always there. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:46:04 GMT From: Roger Ivie Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 VAX, TCPIP 5.3: error in FINGER Message-ID: On 2007-06-10, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > The interesting thing is, I only get the error when FINGER has a > particular account as its argument. (I get the error, for this account, > from all accounts and for all VAXes in the cluster.) It is repeatable, > but I'm pretty sure it wasn't always there. You get the error where? You run FINGER on the account and the result is the error? I used to have a similar .plan on one of my accounts, back when I thought that sort of thing was clever. I think mine was an access violation, though. -- roger ivie rivie@ridgenet.net ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.316 ************************