INFO-VAX Mon, 11 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 318 Contents: Re: 8086 vs patches Another opportunity RE: Another opportunity bad checksum for AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83 Re: bad checksum for AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83 Re: DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6) Re: DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6) Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: Reflection's VT emulation Reflection's VT emulation (was: DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6)) Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:28:22 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: 8086 vs patches Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei wrote: > Nobody accepted to provide me with a supply of chocolate in exchange for > my stopping the use of the term "8086" to designate the industry > standard architecture (since this is where it has its roots). > > I have a new proposal to make: > > I would be willing to stop using the 8086 monicker if Kerry Main were > willing to stop using the "many many patches" argument. > > Would that be a fair deal that would benefit the c.o.v. community at large ? > > (My goal would be to get Mr Main to find other arguments to push VMS > instead of using that one over and over again). You have my full support there. On the subject of chocolate, if you send some paying work my way, we can definitely come to some arrangement. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 14:58:02 GMT From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Another opportunity Message-ID: <5d567qF335oqgU1@mid.individual.net> A draft document has just come out of NIST called "Guidelines on Securing Public Web Servers (Draft)". Just started it but I already noticed a paragraph (3.6.1) that is right up VMS's alley. So, anybody taking bets on wether or not HP will levarge this great marketing opportunity? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 11:09:35 -0400 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Another opportunity Message-ID: <000001c7ac3a$859ba840$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> Mention VMS to almost anyone here and watch the reaction. Anything from total lack of recognition to "is that old thing still around". Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 10:58 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Another opportunity > > A draft document has just come out of NIST called "Guidelines > on Securing Public Web Servers (Draft)". > > Just started it but I already noticed a paragraph (3.6.1) > that is right up VMS's alley. So, anybody taking bets on > wether or not HP will levarge this great marketing opportunity? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. > Three wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:36:07 +0200 From: Bill Bennett Subject: bad checksum for AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83 Message-ID: I've tried twice today to download the new DECnet-Plus ECO AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83 from the ITRC FTP site, and both times got the same checksum for the ZIPEXE file (CHECKSUM$CHECKSUM = "2926599316"), which unfortunately does not agree with the checksum in the cover letter, although the ZIPEXE runs and unpacks the PCSI files without obvious error. (And no, the checksum in the cover letter doesn't agree with that for the PCSI$COMPRESSED file, either.) Has anyone been able to download AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83.ZIPEXE and get the checksum listed in the cover letter? I downloaded the new VMS 8.3 Alpha UPDATE_V0300.ZIPEXE and a few more recent patches with the same procedures with no problem, but I'd have thought that someone else would have noticed the problem by now and posted a comment here, if there really were a kit with a bad checksum on the ITRC site... Bill Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:23:23 +0100 From: "Roger Fraser" Subject: Re: bad checksum for AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83 Message-ID: <466d575f$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net> "Bill Bennett" wrote in message news:f4jj49$mt3$1@rzcomm2.rz.tu-bs.de... > I've tried twice today to download the new DECnet-Plus ECO > AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83 from the ITRC FTP site, and both times > got the same checksum for the ZIPEXE file (CHECKSUM$CHECKSUM > = "2926599316"), which unfortunately does not agree with > the checksum in the cover letter, although the ZIPEXE runs > and unpacks the PCSI files without obvious error. (And no, > the checksum in the cover letter doesn't agree with that > for the PCSI$COMPRESSED file, either.) > > Has anyone been able to download AXP_DNVOSIECO02-V83.ZIPEXE > and get the checksum listed in the cover letter? > > I downloaded the new VMS 8.3 Alpha UPDATE_V0300.ZIPEXE and > a few more recent patches with the same procedures with no > problem, but I'd have thought that someone else would have > noticed the problem by now and posted a comment here, if > there really were a kit with a bad checksum on the ITRC > site... > > Bill Bennett I would not worry too much about it - the kit installs OK When you run the .ZIPEXE image, 2 files are produced: DEC-AXPVMS-DNVOSIECO02-V0803--4.PCSI$COMPRESSED and DEC-AXPVMS-DNVOSIECO02-V0803--4.PCSI$COMPRESSED_ESW The second of these will cause the patch to be validated at installation time $ prod inst * Performing product kit validation ... %PCSI-I-VALPASSED, validation of $1$DKA200:[TEST]DEC-AXPVMS-DNVOSIECO02-V0803--4.PCSI$COMPRESSED;1 succeeded The following product has been selected: DEC AXPVMS DNVOSIECO02 V8.3 Patch (remedial update) Do you want to continue? [YES] Configuration phase starting ... You will be asked to choose options, if any, for each selected product and for any products that may be installed to satisfy software dependency requirements. DEC AXPVMS DNVOSIECO02 V8.3: HP DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 ECO02 © Copyright 2007 Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P. * This product does not have any configuration options. Execution phase starting ... The following product will be installed to destination: DEC AXPVMS DNVOSIECO02 V8.3 DISK$ALPVMS083_V:[VMS$COMMON.] Portion done: 0%...10%...90%...100% The following product has been installed (and a recovery data set created): DEC AXPVMS DNVOSIECO02 V8.3 Patch (maintenance update) DEC AXPVMS DNVOSIECO02 V8.3: HP DECnet-Plus for OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 ECO02 Release notes are available in SYS$HELP:DNVOSI083ECO02.RELEASE_NOTES> $ HTH Roger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 03:12:46 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6) Message-ID: <36b86$466cf5f5$cef8887a$15979@TEKSAVVY.COM> John E. Malmberg wrote: > I have run into problems with bold fonts at 100dpi on DECTerms from > OpenVMS 8.3 and its associated Decwindows. Is there a reason you are using 100dpi instead of 75 ? > Problem # 1, bold font displayed by Reflections X is much larger than > the non-bolded characters, at least 1/2 again larger. I had that on all menus when I had set a real decwindows screen to 100dpi. The menus were huge. Setting the server back to 75 dpi fixed this. Are you sure your X terminal has local support for 100dpi fonts ? There may be automated substitutions being done which result in some displaying a 100 and others at the standard 75. > Problem # 2, With "Big Fonts" chosen, Reflection X can not find the > requested bold font, -*-Terminal-Bold-R-Normal--18-140-100-100-C-0-*-* . Remember that fonts must be local on the X terminal. The fonts on the VMS host (the X client) don't matter. One exception is of you run a font server on your VMS host, at which point the X terminal can request access to those fonts on the VMS host if it doesn't have them locally. > Also, on my Reflections 2 (Version 5.20), bold text is not showing up as > bold, only as normal. The only work around I have found is to make bold > text a different color. So if someone has a better hack, I would > appreciate it. This would have to do with your local PC font directory and how it maps X fonts to your PC fonts, as well as which fonts it reports it has when talking to the X client (the VMS box). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:11:34 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6) Message-ID: SJF Mezei wrote: > John E. Malmberg wrote: > >> I have run into problems with bold fonts at 100dpi on DECTerms from >> OpenVMS 8.3 and its associated Decwindows. > > > Is there a reason you are using 100dpi instead of 75 ? I am running a 20 inch LCD display at 1600 * 1200 pixels. >> Problem # 1, bold font displayed by Reflections X is much larger than >> the non-bolded characters, at least 1/2 again larger. > > > I had that on all menus when I had set a real decwindows screen to > 100dpi. The menus were huge. Setting the server back to 75 dpi fixed this. I have never had a problem with fonts on a real VMS display. > Are you sure your X terminal has local support for 100dpi fonts ? There > may be automated substitutions being done which result in some > displaying a 100 and others at the standard 75. Reflection X claims to have support in the help. However the software is a bit out of warrantee. I would rather not buy an update at this time. If someone has the name that is being used to request this font, I can experiment with the Reflections font.ali like I did in the other case. >> Problem # 2, With "Big Fonts" chosen, Reflection X can not find the >> requested bold font, -*-Terminal-Bold-R-Normal--18-140-100-100-C-0-*-* . > > Remember that fonts must be local on the X terminal. The fonts on the > VMS host (the X client) don't matter. > > One exception is of you run a font server on your VMS host, at which > point the X terminal can request access to those fonts on the VMS host > if it doesn't have them locally. I have the XFS font server from DECWindows-MOTIF running. That particular font is not served, or listed in either a font directory or alias file on my DS-10. Reflections also does not seem to be able to find a replacement font on its own to use, even with the substitute and scale options on. > >> Also, on my Reflections 2 (Version 5.20), bold text is not showing up >> as bold, only as normal. The only work around I have found is to make >> bold text a different color. So if someone has a better hack, I would >> appreciate it. > > > This would have to do with your local PC font directory and how it maps > X fonts to your PC fonts, as well as which fonts it reports it has when > talking to the X client (the VMS box). Reflection 2 is a VT4xx emulator with out REGIS graphics. It has nothing to do with X11 except that at the time I bought Reflection X, if you requested it, they bundled Reflection 2 in free. So what I am doing is attempting to get more life out of an ancient package of Reflections.X. I am hoping that someone has done this already and has some answers. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 00:15:29 -0700 From: Andrew Subject: Re: Global warming NOT causing more hurricanes UK scientists say Message-ID: <1181546129.205597.202690@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On 8 Jun, 15:24, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Michael Kraemer wrote: > > Andrew schrieb: > > >> Bob, repeat after me Sweden is not part of the UK, Puerto Rico is not > >> part of the UK, the US is not part of the UK. > > >> I don't know what is more frightening your views on the accuracy of > >> the old testament or your understanding of Geography. > > > well, what do you expect from a person who would > > believe that the Earth is flat if the bible says so. > > Well, a flat earth; e.g. Terry Pratchett's Diskworld, is considerably > more fun than the oblate spheroid we are stuck with! Bob would be considerably more interesting if he believed in the Gospel according to Terry rather than the apparent writings of some rather frightening old testament prophets. Pratchett is funny and he even knows when to press the shift button on his keyboard. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:08:09 -0700 From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: OT: Lightning & Time to buy lottery tickets Message-ID: <1181574489.273210.27950@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 11:57 am, David J Dachtera wrote: > Rambo wrote: > > > Well, a similar thing happened to me at work two years ago, during > > "storm of century" in Poland. except it wasn't "near miss", it was a > > direct hit. We have lost electricity for nearly 6 hours after that. > > > Results: > > - $5000 ATM switch busted, wouldn't boot, wouldn't squeak (wish it > > went to my collection) > > - HP Ethernet switch started loosing packets, > > - two SuperStacks II, both made something like this: BUZZZZ-zz---ZZZ, > > one had 4 ports fried, another "just" two and lost management ability. > > - one computer lost EtherExpress Pro/100 > > I worked at a factory back in the middle 70's. A power pole just outside the > plant took a direct hit. A fair amount of the electrical infrastructure inside > the plant had to be replaced. > > While I worked there, had another stormy day. The sky grew so dark that the > parking lot lights came on - we could see that through the frosted windows at > the tops of the walls. Then, the power failed suddenly. Rather an eerie scene > with no lights and the green-hued, darkened sky. A tornado had gone skipping > across the area less than a mile south of the plant. "Exploded" numerous houses > in the residential areas, just missing a high school, virtually obliterated the > electrical substation that fed the industrial park. The plant was without power > for three days. > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemshttp://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Pagehttp://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Once at home, once at work. We're in the middle of a 5-unit townhouse building. Lightning struck the tree outside one end unit (we were not home). The tree survived, but the answering machine, two analog phones, three Hayes Optima modems, a VT320, a DECserver 200, and the serial port on a Macintosh IIci all died. At work we lost a bank of Xyplex terminal servers to a building hit once, along with the compressor for a Liebert A/C unit. The strike ran down one corner of the building, and the Xyplex that fried served terminals incliding the affected corner office on the top floor. Everything else in the computer room seemed fine (5 VAX cluster, HSC50/70 and many disks) for about three days, then the PDU started flaking out randomly cutting power to several circuits in the room. Fixed under contract, fortunately. The office lost its VT terminal, desktop pc (386-16, big deal at the time), calculator, phone, TV/VCR setup, and wall clock, as I recall. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:22:20 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: In article <466C702B.1040008@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Then God got pissed Ah, that explains a lot: "Beer was responsible for technology" http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39004 :-) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:38 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <00A68F78.D02BCB38@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > >In article <466C702B.1040008@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > >> Then God got pissed > >Ah, that explains a lot: > >"Beer was responsible for technology" > >http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39004 I'll drink to that! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 12:54:35 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: <5d4v0aF33b278U3@mid.individual.net> In article <7e439$466c95da$cef88391$23648@teksavvy.com-free>, "John Smith" writes: > IanMiller wrote: >> as that story mentions VMS I64 V8.1 I suspect is it not from this >> year. I would be interested to know how they are getting on. > > > That story is several years old. What would be just as interesting is the > number of *new* institutions doing the same thing, but we all know what the > answer to that is. I tried to get one going here. We even have Projects Course that is required for the degree. Students could get credit for doing the work. I posted a number of smaller, simpler projects but there were no takers. And, all of these students would have had prior experience programming in a VMS environment within the department. I leave it to the reader to decide why there was no interest. I would be interested in knowing the status of the project in Italy. In particular, how many and what programs have been successfully ported. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:20:59 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: Reflection's VT emulation Message-ID: <5d59koF320eo7U1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-06-11 15:59, "Michael Unger" wrote: > [...] > > Reflection's VT-420 emulation (I've used "Reflection 4" years ago) maps > the 16 possible combinations of the VT's "attribute bits" ("bold", > "underline", "blink", "reverse") to 16 different colours on a VGA > display (which KEA's "Enterprise 2000" VT-420 emulation does as well). I > don't remember if you can set text and background colours independently. Now I've finally found KEA's mapping table for the 16 colour indices of its VT-420 emulation: VT colour index ... RGB parameters 0 ................ 0, 0, 0 1 ................ 0, 0, 255 2 ................ 255, 0, 0 3 ................ 0, 255, 0 4 ................ 255, 0, 255 5 ................ 0, 255, 255 6 ................ 255, 255, 0 7 ................ 192, 192, 192 8 ................ 96, 96, 96 9 ................ 0, 0, 185 10 ................ 185, 0, 0 11 ................ 0, 185, 0 12 ................ 185, 0, 185 13 ................ 0, 185, 185 14 ................ 185, 185, 0 15 ................ 255, 255, 255 > [...] Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:59:29 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Reflection's VT emulation (was: DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6)) Message-ID: <5d52vfF32iv8kU1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-06-11 15:11, "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > SJF Mezei wrote: >> John E. Malmberg wrote: >> >> [...] > >>> Also, on my Reflections 2 (Version 5.20), bold text is not showing up >>> as bold, only as normal. The only work around I have found is to make >>> bold text a different color. So if someone has a better hack, I would >>> appreciate it. >> >> This would have to do with your local PC font directory and how it maps >> X fonts to your PC fonts, as well as which fonts it reports it has when >> talking to the X client (the VMS box). > > Reflection 2 is a VT4xx emulator with out REGIS graphics. It has > nothing to do with X11 except that at the time I bought Reflection X, if > you requested it, they bundled Reflection 2 in free. > > So what I am doing is attempting to get more life out of an ancient > package of Reflections.X. > > I am hoping that someone has done this already and has some answers. It's been quite some time -- so "IIRC", "AFAIR", and similar disclaimers ahead ... Reflection's VT-420 emulation (I've used "Reflection 4" years ago) maps the 16 possible combinations of the VT's "attribute bits" ("bold", "underline", "blink", "reverse") to 16 different colours on a VGA display (which KEA's "Enterprise 2000" VT-420 emulation does as well). I don't remember if you can set text and background colours independently. What I usually do (black background assumed) is similar to the following pattern: normal ............. (medium) grey, i.e., RGB = 128,128,128 bold ............... (light) white, i.e., RGB = 255,255,255 underline .......... (medium) green underline & bold ... light green blink .............. (medium) cyan blink & bold ....... light cyan and so on for all possible combinations. Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 09:08:12 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: In article <00A68F22.67B92CAF@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1181513961.769876.184660@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller > writes: > > > > > >On Jun 10, 6:03 pm, David J Dachtera > >wrote: > > > >> Has CIFS officialy been released as a supported product? ...or is it still > >> in > >> development/field-test? > >> > > > >It is not released as a supported product. There have been several > >evaluation releases. The first public field test is due to start soon, > > Ian, > > where do you get this info? I can't even find reference *TO* the SAMBA > distribution on Hopelessly Pathetic's site let alone find any actual > mention of futures for this kludge. I am wondering what became of the request for access to a development system from an ex-CIFS team member, as in the following thread: tinyurl version: http://preview.tinyurl.com/3d4uww -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 01:23:24 -0700 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <1181550204.620702.27070@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jun 11, 1:00 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: - - Ian, - - where do you get this info? I can't even find reference *TO* the SAMBA - distribution on Hopelessly Pathetic's site let alone find any actual - mention of futures for this kludge. - The public information is in the roadmap http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/roadmap slide 37. Observant readers will notice the plans have slipped. The HP OpenVMS CIFS web page is http://h71000.www7.hp.com/network/CIFS_for_Samba.html which refers to the roadmap and to a FAQ http://h71000.www7.hp.com/network/faq.html As soon as updated information becomes public it will be on your favourite VMS news site :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:08:21 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68F77.60A91310@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Dave Weatherall" writes: > > >On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:01:59 UTC, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> I have been using SAMBA on my systems for some time. It's a kludge. >> >> Yesterday, I assisted a site in updated their V7.2-2 system to V8.3. >> Mostly as a test to see what was needed to get them up in production >> on V8.3. Since there is no more PathWorks or Advanced Server, they >> were interested in trying SAMBA. At home, I have my Powerbook and I >> can share files with VMS (some files ;) ). When I configured SAMBA >> to serve one user directory at this site, this user tried to open a >> text file using whatever one would use on a Weendoze box to open up >> a text file (NoteEdit?). The text previewed as if it was typed with- >> out ever hitting a carriage return. I then connected to this exact >> same share with my Powerbook and the data was just fine. Go figya! >> This user said that with PathWorks, they can open the same types of >> files (most of these are reports written by their business apps) and >> they appear as if carriage returns were there. > >As others have told you its CR/LF versus LF only. If you use Wordpad >to open the file on Microschrott it should be readable normally. Or >perhaps not... Wordpad does cope with LF terminated ascii files. Thanks Dave. I don't know what the person at this particular site used to look at his files. However, I would assume it was the appication he was using in the past with PathWorks. If things are going to change for customers when using SAMBA then this is not a great replacement for the PW/AS product. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:26:53 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68F79.F6F7F11F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1181550204.620702.27070@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: > > >On Jun 11, 1:00 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >- >- Ian, >- >- where do you get this info? I can't even find reference *TO* the >SAMBA >- distribution on Hopelessly Pathetic's site let alone find any actual >- mention of futures for this kludge. >- > >The public information is in the roadmap http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/roadmap >slide 37. Observant readers will notice the plans have slipped. > >The HP OpenVMS CIFS web page is >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/network/CIFS_for_Samba.html > >which refers to the roadmap and to a FAQ http://h71000.www7.hp.com/network/faq.html That slide would indicate that PW V6.1 will be supported on new OpenVMS releases through 2010. Where in the HP download quagmire would one find a distro of PW V6.1 which will run on OpenVMS Alpha V8.3? >As soon as updated information becomes public it will be on your >favourite VMS news site :-) Too bad you, Ken and the rest of the .org team are not working the HP.com site. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:37:53 -0400 From: "PEN" Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: Hi, wrote in message news:00A68F79.F6F7F11F@SendSpamHere.ORG... > In article <1181550204.620702.27070@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > IanMiller writes: [snip] > > That slide would indicate that PW V6.1 will be supported on new OpenVMS > releases through 2010. Where in the HP download quagmire would one find > a distro of PW V6.1 which will run on OpenVMS Alpha V8.3? > > [snip] Thanks for pointing this out - it's not correct. The Product Manager has been notitied and will update the statement so it correctly reads: - Continued support for OpenVMS VAX releases PATHWORKS is the only supported file/print services product that runs on VAXen. However, PATHWORKS is not supported (and will not run) on OpenVMS Alpha v8.x. Regards, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:40:23 -0700 From: DeanW Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <3f119ada0706110740h7d364250hc7b99bc02214c801@mail.gmail.com> On 6/11/07, VAXman-@sendspamhere.org wrote: > Thanks Dave. I don't know what the person at this particular site used > to look at his files. However, I would assume it was the appication he > was using in the past with PathWorks. If things are going to change for > customers when using SAMBA then this is not a great replacement for the > PW/AS product. It might some day be a usable replacement product. Right now, based on my experience, (RX3600 cluster that can't reliably serve files to 50 or so users) it's not even close. Of course, HP knows that- it's not a supported solution; what's available is an "evaluation release", and the page http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/integrity/openvms_plans.html shows just how not-ready Samba is, saying "An HP CIFS Production Release (Based on Samba V3) on Integrity servers and AlphaServer systems is planned for H2 2006." Optimistically, it's over 6 months late, and the last kit I saw (see above) isn't ready yet, either. Or maybe it is- but nobody at HP can get you any help setting it up so it can be used in any sort of productive manner, because it's just an "evaluation release" and not covered by support. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 17:31:25 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68FB5.45E9CB53@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "PEN" writes: > > >Hi, > > wrote in message >news:00A68F79.F6F7F11F@SendSpamHere.ORG... >> In article <1181550204.620702.27070@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, >> IanMiller writes: >[snip] >> >> That slide would indicate that PW V6.1 will be supported on new OpenVMS >> releases through 2010. Where in the HP download quagmire would one find >> a distro of PW V6.1 which will run on OpenVMS Alpha V8.3? >> >> >[snip] > >Thanks for pointing this out - it's not correct. The Product Manager has >been notitied and will update the statement so it correctly reads: > >- Continued support for OpenVMS VAX releases > >PATHWORKS is the only supported file/print services product that runs on >VAXen. However, PATHWORKS is not supported (and will not run) on OpenVMS >Alpha v8.x. > >Regards, > >Paul What of Advanced Server V7.3 that I was directed to this morning? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:45:22 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article <1181525558.697791.50910@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, David B Sneddon wrote: > On Jun 10, 7:15 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > [...snip...] > > > > Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since you > > are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was happening, > > since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly reboots > > and do not have monthly security patches. > > [...snip...] > > > Regards > > > > Kerry Main > > Can one assume that a "properly maintained" VMS system > has the latest ECOs installed? > How many of those ECOs can be installed without requiring > a reboot? From the VMS83A_UPDATE-V0300 kit: ---- 2.2 Reboot Requirement: Reboot Required. HP strongly recommends that a reboot is performed immediately after kit installation to avoid system instability. If you have other nodes in your OpenVMS cluster, they must also be rebooted in order to make use of the new image(s). If it is not possible or convenient to reboot the entire cluster at this time, a rolling re-boot may be performed. ---- Is OVMS engineering taking the "safe option" here, or will the lack of a reboot _really_ lead to system instability? The correct answer probably varies not only from one kit to the next, but will depend on what software each given system is actually utilising. When faced with applying several ECOs which contain the above warning, I will try to grab a slot so that I can apply them in standalone mode, and get away with one reboot only. That of course implies a full cluster shutdown. What do others do here? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 07:19:48 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/11/07 05:45, P. Sture wrote: > In article <1181525558.697791.50910@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > David B Sneddon wrote: > >> On Jun 10, 7:15 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >> >> [...snip...] >>> Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since you >>> are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was happening, >>> since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly reboots >>> and do not have monthly security patches. >> [...snip...] >> >>> Regards >>> >>> Kerry Main >> Can one assume that a "properly maintained" VMS system >> has the latest ECOs installed? >> How many of those ECOs can be installed without requiring >> a reboot? > > From the VMS83A_UPDATE-V0300 kit: > > ---- > 2.2 Reboot Requirement: > > Reboot Required. > HP strongly recommends that a reboot is performed immediately after > kit installation to avoid system instability. If you have other > nodes in your OpenVMS cluster, they must also be rebooted in order > to make use of the new image(s). If it is not possible or > convenient to reboot the entire cluster at this time, a rolling > re-boot may be performed. > ---- > > Is OVMS engineering taking the "safe option" here, or will the lack of a > reboot _really_ lead to system instability? > > The correct answer probably varies not only from one kit to the next, > but will depend on what software each given system is actually utilising. > > When faced with applying several ECOs which contain the above warning, I > will try to grab a slot so that I can apply them in standalone mode, and > get away with one reboot only. That of course implies a full cluster > shutdown. > > What do others do here? Say "Shame on you, Kerry!", for foisting upon us a product that needs constant reboots, in order to stay current? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 12:44:41 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d4udpF33b278U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <5d32h7F33hn9uU1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> The hardware has been back to Mac at least three times in the year he >> has had it and I don't even know how many times the OS has been upgraded. > > Sounds like it could be a Monday morning machine. Which somehow excuses it? > >> Seems like he is always having to install something which frequently >> makes other things stop working. > > That doesn't sound right. Is he prone to "playing around" with settings, > or trying out some "neat thing" he's seen on a web site? Of course he is. But again, the Mac seems much less tolerant of use than any other system we have around here. Mac may have had something back in the days when they actually had their own OS. I wasn't overly impressed with it even then (I do have about a half-dozen M68K Macs I play around with when I am killing time and a a whole stack of the Developers CD's) but now it's just a bad Unix implementation. "Those who do not understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it -- badly." -Henry Spencer Actually, I had never really thought about before but this quote applies equally well to Linux. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 12:49:57 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d4unlF33b278U2@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 06/10/07 14:44, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >>> On 06/10/07 09:08, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article , >>>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>>> On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>>>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>>>>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>>>>>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >>>>>>> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >>>>>>> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >>>>>>> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >>>>>>> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >>>>>>> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jan-Erik. >>>>>> VMS is not too good with office applications like word processing, or >>>>>> spreadsheets. AFAIK there's no Visio for VMS or any similar tool. >>>>>> >>>>>> Windoze and PCs have their place. Render unto Caesar. . . . >>>>> *Most* tasks you can do with MS Windows you can also accomplish with >>>>> "desktop Unix" (Linux or OS X, but *not* FreeBSD). Sometimes, >>>>> though, you'll have to do them a bit differently. >>>> And just what "desktop" function is it that you can do with Linux or >>>> OS X that you can't do with FreeBSD? >>> None. Just jerking your chain a little. :) >>> >>>> Being as OS X is BSD userland, >>>> I would be amazed if there was something one could do that the other >>>> couldn't. >>> Sure. The Mac has a friendly GUI, and BSD is stuck with a 5 year >>> old csh. >> >> Actually, the MAc has crappy (IMHO) GUI and BSD has had a GUI since before >> the first Mac laptop. > > It was probably on some Stanford LISP machine... I wonder what DEC > & MIT used when designing X Windows. > >> Come to think of it, the first publicly available >> GUI was probably on BSD. :-) > > Impossible. True, I did some quick research and it looks like The Andrew Project ran on Unix before W was ported 1983. X came about a year later. Sure seems like it was longer than that!!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:53:22 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <1181566402.844859.269170@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 11, 8:44 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" writes: > > > In article <5d32h7F33hn9...@mid.individual.net>, > > b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > >> The hardware has been back to Mac at least three times in the year he > >> has had it and I don't even know how many times the OS has been upgraded. > > > Sounds like it could be a Monday morning machine. > > Which somehow excuses it? Well, you could also interpret this to mean that this laptop is not representative. I'm sure other companies suffer from such. > > > > >> Seems like he is always having to install something which frequently > >> makes other things stop working. > > > That doesn't sound right. Is he prone to "playing around" with settings, > > or trying out some "neat thing" he's seen on a web site? > > Of course he is. But again, the Mac seems much less tolerant of > use than any other system we have around here. Mac may have had Less tolerant of use? Use? Tech repair person: OHHHHHHH! Using your laptop, eh??? > something back in the days when they actually had their own OS. > I wasn't overly impressed with it even then (I do have about a > half-dozen M68K Macs I play around with when I am killing time > and a a whole stack of the Developers CD's) but now it's just a > bad Unix implementation. So how would you rank it compared to Windows? > > "Those who do not understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it -- badly." > -Henry Spencer Amusing. > > Actually, I had never really thought about before but this quote applies > equally well to Linux. Could this in part be why Google Groups is so buggy? And why many Google counts are so inaccurate? (half-serious jest) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 13:22:18 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d50kaF32cnemU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] On >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: June 10, 2007 10:36 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Story Time >>=20 > > [snip ..] > > >>=20 >> Oh, it's non sequitor time!! Of course not. They should have desktop >> VMS in front of them and be running VMS from front to back. Oh wait, >> none of those desktop apps exist, sorry, I'll go back to sleep now. >> :-) >>=20 > > Ok, following your logic, those same people should all be running > Solaris WS's just because the back end server is Solaris - right? > > And for those AIX applications, well, I guess they will need AIX WS's on > their desk as well - right? Well, if the back end is Solaris or AIX then there should be no reason why the desktop shouldn't be, too. Of course, a workstation isn't needed. Just an X-terminal (thin client anyone?). Oh, and we were talking VMS, not Solaris or AIX. The idea is that is good business if the people at the front end know what the backend is. But that would be marketing and we know where that falls in HP's view as regards VMS. > >> > >> > Does this not sound like running Windows applications from the CMD >> > prompt? Or forcing OPS users to run UNIX applications from a shell >> > prompt? >>=20 >> See above!! >>=20 >> > >> > How many UNIX environment are maintained by front line admins with >> web >> > based front ends?=3D20 >>=20 >> Not sure what that means. All my Unix servers that have regular users >> sport X frontends and work fine from the desktop without hiding what >> they actually are. As an admin, while I do periodically sue web >> graphical >> interfaces I find most admin stuff is quicker and easier fromt he >> command. >> For example: adding users. How long do tou think it would take to add >> the >> 500-600 users every semester using a graphical interface that dows >> them >> one at a time? I take the classlists sent to me by the Registrar, run >> them >> through a simple program I wrote (in about 15 minutes) and the output >> is >> a data file I pass as input to the "adduser" command resulting in all >> my >> new users being on the system in less than 5 minutes. What admins do >> is >> very different from what the data entry people in admissions or HR do. >>=20 > > You are talking about a level 2 support task vs. the Level 1 support > resource who gets occasional requests to add a user or 2 or 3 .. Two > different tasks for two different roles. What makes you think there are more than one person adding users? The only difference is knowledge of the system. I can add one user faster with my system, too. > >> > >> > Point is that, regardless of the platforms, while experienced Sys >> Admins >> > will typically use a character cell, in order to make the front line >> > support issues less of an issue, they put GUI's in place for doing >> some >> > of the more mundane monitoring and managing tasks - same goes for >> > OpenVMS. >>=20 >> I wasn't the one advocating character cell interfaces, you were. I >> was >> the one saying the GUI should be VMS and not some wimpy Windows Wwb >> toy >> so that the existence of VMS as the real reason for the businesses >> success >> was apparent and not hiden behind smoke and mirrors. >>=20 >> > >> > The point I was making is that from all of your posts, you indicated >> > that OpenVMS seemed to be almost gone at your University. >>=20 >> I, and others here, have said no such thing. We said VMS is gone from >> academia. The place that made future CIO's and IT Managers no longer >> males them aware of VMS's existence. And the one place where it is >> still in use in education it is totally hidden in such a manner that >> people think everything is done using Windows. All that just makes >> the >> decision to move to Windows completely easier when the time comes. If >> people don;t know that VMS is the core of their operation are they >> likely >> to defend it when the time time to move comes? And if you think the >> indians in the cubicles have any influence over the chiefs in the >> corner >> offices with the big windows, well, you are more out of touch with the >> business than I thought. >>=20 >> > In fact, >> > OpenVMS is running the most important environment (by far) which >> likely >> > every admin person and many students use extensively. >>=20 >> And none of them knows. All they know is "I do everythng on MS >> Windows". >>=20 >> > >> > Academic (your world) and Business Admin (Banner world) are two >> > different worlds in most Universities I have been involved = > with.=3D20 >>=20 >> Of course they are. I have also said that repeatedly. And which one >> has historically driven the direction of IT history? Did Unix get as >> far as it did because Universities in the 70's and 80's were using it >> for their administration? >>=20 >> > >> > The heat the Admin folks take if Banner even burps is huge. The >> Academic >> > world typically maintains their environment on a much less critical >> > basis. The University I was just recently involved with was recently >> hit >> > with "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no >> excuses!" >> > . and this was a direct mandate from the Chancellor.=3D20 >>=20 >> Bull crap (well, maybe not in that one case). Our president has never >> heard of VMS and probably doesn't know what Banner is either. Our >> Provost > > Never said that he said anything about OpenVMS.=20 And you think his lack of knowledge of what it really is that keeps his University running is a good thing? > >> the same. BUt to move along your thread above, what was it the >> Chancellor >> said? "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no >> excuses!" >> Note, he didn't say VMS, he said Banner. So, what does that mean if >> (as >> I said I had heard) Banner moves to Windows? > > It means the whoever in the Operations shop decides to move to a new > platform better find a way to apply all the monthly security patches and > keep Windows as stable as their current Solaris environment or heads > will roll. Give it a rest. In the real world Unix and yes, even Windows systems are as stable and reliable as VMS systems modulo the experience and capabilities of the people hired to run them. And finding competent people to run Unix and Windows is going to be a lot easier (and likely cheaper) than doing the same for VMS. > > [That's why I mentioned the Operations shop at the Univ where I was at > will not be doing this anytime soon. They have much bigger fish to fry.] But as regards Banner, it still places the burden on someone with no investment in VMS and a lot of reason to consider making Windows their primary platform not the least of which is visibility. I know of no way to find stats but it would beinteresting to know how many products lost a sale BECAUSE they ran on VMS and not on Windows or Unix. > >>=20 >> > >> > In other words, rebooting for monthly security patches on a regular >> > basis that is common with other platforms like Windows / Linux is a >> > practice that has gone away for the Admin side.=3D20 >>=20 >> You keep harping on this. I don't re-boot my Unix boxes every month. >> I >> don't make changes that are not absolutely necessary in the during an >> academic semester. And, contrary to what many here would have people >> believe, the VMS systems here are taken down at regular intervals. >>=20 > > I was talking about Linux and Windows.=20 > > Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since you > are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was happening, > since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly reboots > and do not have monthly security patches.=20 Fromt he viewpoint of the user community, all that matters is it happens. And I am sure this is not the only place. So what do you think that does to the credibility of fanatics who say, "VMS never goes down" when the CIO knows it does. It just makes it easier to make the decision when the time comes to look at alternatives. I now they don't have to go down. My VMS systems here int he department were not different than my Unix or MS Servers. I started them at the beginning of the semester and they ran. Any changes to the system were scheduled for summer when the studetns and faculty are all gone away. Which doesn't change the fact that the admin systems get rebooted or taken down for some kind of maintenance (actually, I suspect it is more Oracle than VMS, but all the users see is an un- available system). > > >> > >> > Re: ignoring security patches to maintain availability - while you >> might >> > think University settings are not hacker rich, I would beg to >> differ, >> > but perhaps your University is different than those I have been >> involved >> > with. >>=20 >> If soomething that is a threat were announced, I would likely patch it >> and >> reboot. =20 > > So, you do not have to test all your important applications with the > patch before hand?=20 I test what I have to. I have test systems that mirrir the live systems. Not really a big deal. > > Like I said earlier, there are different requirements between Admin > Production and Academic IT environments.=20 Not really. My user base expecgts those machines to be there 24/7. We have faculty who travel to other time zones. We have students who do work from other countries. If my systems are not available I have to explain why not. I have not been called on the carpet any time lately. :-) > > With Linux and Windows, there are 5-20 security patches each and every > month. The "patch it and reboot" part of the process is only a minor > part of the whole process - it is the App re-testing that is the 800 lb > gorilla in terms of effort and visibility. It sure seems to be a bigger problem for you than it is for me. > > > But that happens so infrequently. The last time I had to do >> anything was the DST change and that was hardly what one would call a >> security problem. I didn't say we don;t have hackers, just that on a >> well >> run system, VMS or Unix, they can be controlled. >>=20 > > Assuming that you patch or address all know security issues as you > mentioned earlier. I have not had a successful breakin on one of our servers since we stopped running SunOS 4.1.3. I haven't had a virus in our PC lab since we stopped running NT 4.0. And it certainly isn't because there are no hackers trying or viruses floating around other parts of the campus. The biggest problem I have is identifying and blocking student laptops with Peer-to-Peer software running. The IT industry is growing up (some would say aging) and it does not take rocket science to secure a network today. It takes effort, which many places choose not to do, but it ain't impossible. As the rest of the industry become more secure VMS looses another one of it's strong suits. That just means its owners need to work harder to convince people that there is a reason to choose it over the other options. HP does not seem overly interested in doing that. More to VMS's loss. Theoretically, there is nothing that Linux can do taht VMS probably couldn't do better. But it would take work and investment and marketing. HP doesn't seem to care. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 13:35:48 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d51djF32cnemU2@mid.individual.net> In article <1181566402.844859.269170@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jun 11, 8:44 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> "P. Sture" writes: >> >> > In article <5d32h7F33hn9...@mid.individual.net>, >> > b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> >> The hardware has been back to Mac at least three times in the year he >> >> has had it and I don't even know how many times the OS has been upgraded. >> >> > Sounds like it could be a Monday morning machine. >> >> Which somehow excuses it? > > Well, you could also interpret this to mean that this laptop is not > representative. I'm sure other companies suffer from such. The only other system we saw anywhere near this kind of a reliability problem with was the Toshiba Satellite. We dumped them. But Mac users seem much more willing to accept this behavior. God only knows why. > >> >> >> >> >> Seems like he is always having to install something which frequently >> >> makes other things stop working. >> >> > That doesn't sound right. Is he prone to "playing around" with settings, >> > or trying out some "neat thing" he's seen on a web site? >> >> Of course he is. But again, the Mac seems much less tolerant of >> use than any other system we have around here. Mac may have had > > Less tolerant of use? Use? > > Tech repair person: OHHHHHHH! Using your laptop, eh??? Well, I merely meant that these are faculty members who "play" with their systems all the time. The Mac takes this behavior much less tolerantly than the IBM Thinkpads or Lenovo or even Gateway laptops running XP, Linux or BSD. > >> something back in the days when they actually had their own OS. >> I wasn't overly impressed with it even then (I do have about a >> half-dozen M68K Macs I play around with when I am killing time >> and a a whole stack of the Developers CD's) but now it's just a >> bad Unix implementation. > > So how would you rank it compared to Windows? HArder to work with. Harder to integrate into our overall infrastructure. Less reliable. More work to admin. I would never want one. > >> >> "Those who do not understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it -- badly." >> -Henry Spencer > > Amusing. But very old and very true as evidenced by some of todays options. > >> >> Actually, I had never really thought about before but this quote applies >> equally well to Linux. > > Could this in part be why Google Groups is so buggy? And why many > Google counts are so inaccurate? (half-serious jest) Actually, I wold place the blame for that on a bad search algorithm exacerbated by Google selling their integrity. While I still use Google to search, I place much less faith in their returning what I actually want. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.318 ************************