INFO-VAX Mon, 09 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 372 Contents: A dual processor speedup question Re: A dual processor speedup question Re: A dual processor speedup question Re: A dual processor speedup question Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Re: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Itanium serial ports Re: Itanium serial ports Re: Itanium serial ports Re: July the 4th RE: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 RE: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000 - cannot connect to serial of rj-45 port Re: SEARCH: expected result? Re: SEARCH: expected result? Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: Send Mail at specific time Re: SSL/TLS Stuff (was Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server)) Re: SSL/TLS Stuff (was Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server)) Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Re: WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th RE: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:42:28 +0200 From: "Eberhard Heuser" Subject: A dual processor speedup question Message-ID: <001501c7c237$5f8e2750$05072286@vg2> Hi, After the installation of OpenVMS 8.3 on a dual I64 machine I ran some benchmarks and got results that surpised me a bit. Though the code is not parallel (mixture of Fortran77 + C) I'm getting a speedup of up to 80% in comparison to a single processor machine. The program does alot of disk I/O and this is the main limiting factor. Could someone enlighten me why a dual processor system show this behavior? thanx Eberhard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:35:56 GMT From: "Colin Butcher" Subject: Re: A dual processor speedup question Message-ID: What kind of dual-processor IA64 machine do you now have access to? What kind of machine did you move from? Dual-core with shared cache could potentially give you quite a big speed-up. A larger cache could potentially give you a big speed-up. Maybe one CPU is doing the bulk of the interrupt processing and the other is doing User Mode code. There'd be a loss less context switching for your application happening in that kind of scenario. There are a lot of possible reasons - the new dual IA64 machine may have more memory which is being used for caching, it may have different (and faster IO devices), ... If you really want to explore it then getting T4 data and seeing the different CPU modes for each of the CPUs might be instructive. T4 would also let you compare IO thtoughput with the previous machine. -- Cheers, Colin. Legacy = Stuff that works properly! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:44:09 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: A dual processor speedup question Message-ID: <1183995849.990859.215800@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 9:42 am, "Eberhard Heuser" wrote: > Hi, > > After the installation of OpenVMS 8.3 on a dual I64 machine I ran some > benchmarks and got results that surpised me a bit. > > Though the code is not parallel (mixture of Fortran77 + C) I'm getting > a speedup of up to 80% in comparison to a single processor machine. > The program does alot of disk I/O and this is the main limiting factor. > > Could someone enlighten me why a dual processor system show this > behavior? > > thanx > Eberhard Eberhard, As Colin has already noted, it is not surprising, but the details of what is actually speeding things up might be illuminating (and possibly lead to another round of performance improvements for your application). It is quite possible that your application is running in one of the two processors while all of the overhead, including IO processing is being done by the other processor. Only careful measurement will determine what is actually happening. Re-reading the posting, it is also not clear whether CPUs were switched, or the OS was upgraded (or both). - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:45:50 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: A dual processor speedup question Message-ID: On 07/09/07 09:42, Eberhard Heuser wrote: > Hi, > > After the installation of OpenVMS 8.3 on a dual I64 machine I ran some > benchmarks and got results that surpised me a bit. > > Though the code is not parallel (mixture of Fortran77 + C) I'm getting > a speedup of up to 80% in comparison to a single processor machine. > The program does alot of disk I/O and this is the main limiting factor. > > Could someone enlighten me why a dual processor system show this > behavior? More efficient IO routines in v8.3? Less contention with other processes? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 05:18:46 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Message-ID: <1183983526.659405.15320@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On 5 Jul, 05:58, JF Mezei wrote: > http://www.wired.com/culture/design/magazine/15-07/ff_boat > > Tom Perkins (former HP board member who left during that unethical > inquiry) built himself a new small sailboat. (click on the photo at the > to for the image gallery, but that requires javascript). > > Note the last paragraph in the article where Perkins says he doesn't > want his new ship being controller by Bill gates and having to > alt-ctrl-del all the time. > > Perkins is a venture capitalist. His little new sailboat shows that he > does have some spare pocket change. > > I wonder if it might be possible to approach Perkins and suggest to him > that he buy VMS from HP and then get Bruden, Process and Hoffmanlabs to > to the system maintenance sales etc ? You never cease to amaze me JF. On the one hand you want a further release of VMS for VAX - whether it be called OpenVMS VAX v7.4 or v8.3 or whatever. On the other hand, you're continually suggesting that the combination of Bruden, Process and Hoffman Labs could maintain VMS. Where's new development work going to come from? Where's qualification of clusters of 96 nodes going to come from? Where's qualification of all that old hardware going to come from? Where's the qualification of new hardware going to come from? Strange though it may seem (and not wishing to belittle their contributions which were subtantial), Hoff and Guy Peleg were not the only people maintaining and creating stuff for VMS. Paraphrasing something that Sue said, some bright lights have moved on but some of the lights that didn't shine so brightly get to be seen instead. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:27:00 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: In article , "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma does the > delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 terminals > up to the current. > > Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have to > look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to be a > standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard layouts. > My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and they > are from the same vendor. With the Microsoft keyboard connected to my Alpha, in both EDT and EDIT/TPU (with EDT keypad defined) the numeric keypad key maps to: EDT/WPS Delete Character Erases the character that the cursor is on (same as ERASE CHARACTER). IIRC the various VT emulators I have come across also map keypad to the same. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 05:40:59 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:27:00 -0700, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > >> For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma does the >> delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 terminals >> up to the current. >> >> Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have to >> look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to be a >> standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard layouts. >> My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and they >> are from the same vendor. > > With the Microsoft keyboard connected to my Alpha, in both EDT and > EDIT/TPU (with EDT keypad defined) the numeric keypad key maps to: > > EDT/WPS Delete Character > > Erases the character that the cursor is on (same as ERASE CHARACTER). > > IIRC the various VT emulators I have come across also map keypad > to the same. > Works with PuTTY. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:26:58 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: P. Sture wrote: > In article , > "John E. Malmberg" wrote: > > >>For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma does the >>delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 terminals >>up to the current. >> >>Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have to >>look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to be a >>standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard layouts. >>My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and they >>are from the same vendor. > > > With the Microsoft keyboard connected to my Alpha, in both EDT and > EDIT/TPU (with EDT keypad defined) the numeric keypad key maps to: > > EDT/WPS Delete Character > > Erases the character that the cursor is on (same as ERASE CHARACTER). > > IIRC the various VT emulators I have come across also map keypad > to the same. If I start with the VMS host setting in Reflection 4, that is also the way that it is configured. If I go into setup==>keyboard and click on the default terminal settings button, it then shows that in order to send the VT KEYPAD COMMA key, you must hit PC ALT and KEYPAD PLUS at the same time, and that VT KEYPAD MINUS is mapped to PC KEYPAD +. On Reflectio X, I see PC Keypad + mapped to VT KEYPAD Comma, and that VT KEYPAD - is mapped to PC SHIFT KEYPAD MINUS. I have not looked up what PUTTY is set for. I rarely use that key for deletions when I have to use a PC keyboard. As far as the keyboard scan codes go, the VT KEYPAD COMMA sends the same scan code as a PC KEYPAD PLUS. You can connect an LK series keyboard on a PC and the only things that you will notice different are that you probably no longer have a num-lock light, a few keys have a different label, and a few keys that are not on a PC keyboard appear not to work. When you are in the Powerterm terminal emulator, it seems to detect the LK keyboard is in use and will transmit the expected ASCII code or escape sequence for all keys. If I ever find enough of a discount for the USB LK keyboard, I will probably get one for the PC I primarily use. While the current ASCII standard refers to code 0x7f has DEL or Delete, on older terminals I used such as the ASR 33 and the KSR 35, it was labeled "Rubout". -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 07:25:03 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > And this email that you sent was also HTML. (Netscape has been > doing HTML mail since at least v2.) And most of us have been turning it off. It's a setting, not an engraved stone. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 07:23:52 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <468E8A80.5010005@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > exit(1) > :-) That looks like a fragment of a C program. Of course C is free form soyou could do the whole thing on one line, but it's not as elegant IMHO as the Fortran program I posted. Of course, if it's some language I didn't recognize, please let us know. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 07:26:56 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > Do Alphas and VAXes (much less Itaniacs) even *have* parallel ports? > We plugged our laser printers into LAT servers. All our 11/780 had LP11 parallel ports. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:50:59 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <468E8A80.5010005@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" > writes: > > > > exit(1) > > :-) > > That looks like a fragment of a C program. Of course C is free form > soyou could do the whole thing on one line, but it's not as elegant > IMHO as the Fortran program I posted. > > Of course, if it's some language I didn't recognize, please let us > know. Try it at the DCL prompt :-) $ exit(2928) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:49:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <46924B0A.2040906@comcast.net> P. Sture wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > > >>In article <468E8A80.5010005@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> writes: >> >>>exit(1) >>> :-) >> >> That looks like a fragment of a C program. Of course C is free form >> soyou could do the whole thing on one line, but it's not as elegant >> IMHO as the Fortran program I posted. >> >> Of course, if it's some language I didn't recognize, please let us >> know. > > > Try it at the DCL prompt :-) > > $ exit(2928) > Thank you Paul! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:12:31 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 07/09/07 07:50, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > >> In article <468E8A80.5010005@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> writes: >>> exit(1) >>> :-) >> That looks like a fragment of a C program. Of course C is free form >> soyou could do the whole thing on one line, but it's not as elegant >> IMHO as the Fortran program I posted. >> >> Of course, if it's some language I didn't recognize, please let us >> know. > > Try it at the DCL prompt :-) > > $ exit(2928) Snicker. A Debian easter egg: $ apt-get moo (__) (oo) /------\/ / | || * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ ...."Have you mooed today?"... (apt-* are Debian's package management utilities.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 15:30:37 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5ff2ksF3bjg8aU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: July 6, 2007 8:00 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>=20 > > [Snip ..] > >>=20 >> So, what, is everything mutually exclusive here? Using anti-virus >> software (are you aware that you should actually be using at least >> two different anti-virus prodicts?) and applying patches (as needed >> based on your system and operational necessity) is part of being a >> competent sys admin. >> > > > That's plain silly. Having two in memory packages checking everything > and tripping over each other thinking the other is a virus? > > That is a sure sign of someone looking at Windows server admin from the > back seat. I rest my case regarding sys admining Windows. You have obviously not kept up with what are considered "good practices". You don't run two anti-virus packages ont he same machine. The recommended wasy of doing it is to run two different packages. One ont he server and a different one on the clients. most places settle on one package and run it on both the servers and clients. Obviously, if the package works at all, it will never find anything ont he clients as they will be caught on the server. But running different packages may have the second catch something that slips by on the server. > > With hundreds of servers in your typical small-medium DC (remember large > shop's can have thousands of servers internally), many of which you have > no idea of what services are running on each server, how do you suggest > companies review these 5-20 *monthly* security patches to determine > which ones are needed and which ones are not? How can you have services "you have no idea of" running on your servers? > > In addition, since well run IT shops typically adopt a std server OS > image, how do you propose they maintain a standard server images with > all the new security patches that are required? Becasue a central authority approves what patches need to be installed and then pushes them down to the servers which all get the same patches. > >> > >> > >> > The answer, of course, is that a system exposed to a virus or an >> unpatched >> > exploit can get hacked anyway, no matter how competent the >> administrator. >>=20 >> Well, being as we are talking server boxes and not desktops, a >> competent >> sysadmin doesn read email or surf the web with the server box which >> would >> eliminate pretty much all the standard attack vectors. Which comes >> back >> the Los Alamos story. Just how did the server get exposed to the >> virus? >>=20 > > [snip ...] > > Bill, again, you do not seem to realize how modern Windows servers are > administered in med to large shops. Perhaps you have a very small number > of Windows servers that you administer? What you are proposing is an > approach typical of a very small shop - not a med-large DC. Oh pulleeezzze. You consider The Department of the Army to be "a very small shop"? > > Reality check - Many Windows (Linux) server admin, monitoring and > management packages are web based, hence requires IIS or equivalent web > server running. Maybe so, but they don't require any access to IIS or equivalent web server from outside the box. > You also need IE, Firefox or some other browser on the > server to use these admin packages locally. The same is true for other > platforms as well. Same rules. Just because you have IE doesn't mean you should be surfing the web from the server. if you don't connect to untrusted machines you don't have to worry about infection. They're servers for god's sake. if you want to google soemthing go back to your desk. > > In addition, many SAN Mgmt appliances that control your entire SAN with > all your data are simply web based Windows or Linux servers. Some do not > even have a command line option. Its all locked down and done with a GUI > (appliance approach). Same thing. Just because they have to run a web server doesn't mean you have to let anyone from outside the box access it. If an outsider can't see the web server they can't attack it. > > So, if there is an IIS or IE hole, then you absolutely do need to > consider these a potential server issue - even on your appliance boxes > out there. Not if access is restricted to "localhost". Might not be convenient for the sys admin, but you have to decide between convenience and safety. In the Army we call that Risk Management and it can be applied to just about everything. Indentify the Risk. Reduce the Risk. Live with what's left. If outside access is absolutley, positively necessary, put it on a lan that is not connected to anything but the sys admin's computers. Additional NIC;'s are cheap and VLAN's can do wonders for issolating traffic. Or, if the risk is considered great enough a second totally disconected network but thats probably overkill. > > You asked how a server can get exposed to a virus .. > > Laptops, PDA's, memory sticks, cell phones etc are constantly traversing > from external networks (airports, hotels, home) to internal networks > bypassing the firewalls. Don't allow them on your network. Period. I have a personal laptop. I can take it to my office at DISA. I can not connect it to the network. Memory sticks? When I worked on the network in Germany they were locked out at the top of the forest. You could stick it in the USB port but it wouldn't do anything. Same thing for all those other devices. If you consider them a threat you don't allow them to connect tou your network. My rbother works for an insurance company. He ahs a company laptop. He does not have any admin rights. He can't install anything, deliberately or by accident. It is locked down pretty much as tight as the DA systems I work with (much to their credit!!) Having them locked down this tight does not perevent him from using it to do his job. Of course, all access tot he network is via VPN thru the company. No random network access, no untrusted access, no hacking. He has never had an incident involving this system. It can be done. > The trojans, worms, viruses etc these personal > devices might pick up on external networks are typically designed to > propagate themselves and /or look for servers with known holes and > exploit them. Not if you don't allow them to connect in the first place. One has to understand the difference between business and personal. "And never the twain shall meet!!" > > If you were a bad type person, what better approach to get into a large > corp like a stock exchange than to write a trojan, worm etc that gets on > an employees personal device (laptop or ? that all have browsers and > sometimes IIS services running themselves) installed directly on the > Cust internal network and then looks for known server holes?=20 Read my lips. No personal devices on the company lan. Period. And that's just physical security, we aren't even talking MS here. You don't let strangers wander in and out of your computer room, do you? So why would you let untrusted "strangers" connect to your LAN? > > Course, you could always take away the employees (traders?) Laptops and > PDA's ... yeah right. Not take them away. If they need one fro business you provide it and you see to it that it is suitably locked down. And you don't allow personal PDA's and laptops on your LAN. Period. > > Now see above notes about whether a server platform that has 5-20 new > security patches released *each and every month* seems like such a good > future platform strategy for important applications. Works for me. The only "virus" on our network during my trip to germany was on paper only and required us to go through all the procedures we would have done in the event of a real virus. This was to test our knowledge of and ability to perform all the necessary technical and paperwork requirements in the event of a real one. A real one never happened. Probably because even though all of these machines coming from all over the world were known to come from other secure networks theya ll had to go through a "decontamination station" prior to going on our network. It takes a good and well defined strategy involving physical security, administrative control and technical competence but any system can be secured. The biggest problem is walking that fine line between security and convenience to the user. But it definitely can be done. I know, because I have to do it. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:20:23 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 9, 2007 11:31 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 [snip..] >> You also need IE, Firefox or some other browser > on the > > server to use these admin packages locally. The same is true for > other > > platforms as well. >=20 > Same rules. Just because you have IE doesn't mean you should be > surfing > the web from the server. if you don't connect to untrusted > machines you > don't have to worry about infection. They're servers for god's > sake. if > you want to google soemthing go back to your desk. >=20 Point is that just by the fact that these services are on the server and being used means that all IE and IIS related security patches need to be applied. (and these 2 puppies are likely the most hacked and patched programs on the planet). > > > > In addition, many SAN Mgmt appliances that control your entire > SAN with > > all your data are simply web based Windows or Linux servers. Some > do not > > even have a command line option. Its all locked down and done > with a GUI > > (appliance approach). >=20 > Same thing. Just because they have to run a web server doesn't > mean > you have to let anyone from outside the box access it. If an > outsider > can't see the web server they can't attack it. >=20 It also makes it difficult to manage remotely and for it to send alerts remotely (page, email etc) when something happens. Remote management is no longer a nice to have - it is critical. [As some companies found out during SARS incidents in Toronto. Nothing like occupants of an entire building being told to stay home for 10 days to wake folks up on this critical item. Especially when a DC is in that building and no one can go near it for 10 days. I would think this an even bigger concern for the defence dept.] > > > > So, if there is an IIS or IE hole, then you absolutely do need to > > consider these a potential server issue - even on your appliance > boxes > > out there. >=20 > Not if access is restricted to "localhost". Might not be > convenient for > the sys admin, but you have to decide between convenience and > safety. > In the Army we call that Risk Management and it can be applied to > just > about everything. Indentify the Risk. Reduce the Risk. Live with > what's > left. If outside access is absolutley, positively necessary, put > it on > a lan that is not connected to anything but the sys admin's > computers. > Additional NIC;'s are cheap and VLAN's can do wonders for > issolating > traffic. Or, if the risk is considered great enough a second > totally > disconected network but thats probably overkill. >=20 Bill - we are talking about DC's with hundreds and in some cases thousands of Wintel servers across the company. We are not talking about a few servers in the local server room. VLANS have some benefits, but they also raise the requirement for all servers to add NIC's, switch port counts need to be increased, and the complexity of TCPIP mgmt increases significantly as well. > > > > You asked how a server can get exposed to a virus .. > > > > Laptops, PDA's, memory sticks, cell phones etc are constantly > traversing > > from external networks (airports, hotels, home) to internal > networks > > bypassing the firewalls. >=20 > Don't allow them on your network. Period. I have a personal > laptop. > I can take it to my office at DISA. I can not connect it to the > network. I was talking about business laptops that are locked down. Of course, personal laptops should not enter company property. The ones that company Sales, Marketing and Exec's all use today. I use a company provided laptop with a personal firewall product + latest in AV software which runs every night (I am paranoid about sending a Cust a doc with some buggie loaded). This business laptop of mine gets used remotely (airports, hotels, conferences, home) and in the local office. This is exactly the model that likely 75% of most companies follow today. If I run AD-Aware or Spybot, I know it will almost always find "buggie" stuff that the FW and AV package missed or did not clean-out. While I am assuming these are just marketing buggies, I really have no idea if that is the case or not. The point is that laptops today are extremely hard to totally lock down without disabling the power on button. > Memory sticks? When I worked on the network in Germany they were > locked > out at the top of the forest. You could stick it in the USB port > but it > wouldn't do anything. Same thing for all those other devices. If > you > consider them a threat you don't allow them to connect tou your > network. > My rbother works for an insurance company. He ahs a company laptop. > He > does not have any admin rights. He can't install anything, > deliberately > or by accident. It is locked down pretty much as tight as the DA > systems > I work with (much to their credit!!) Having them locked down this > tight > does not perevent him from using it to do his job. Of course, all > access > tot he network is via VPN thru the company. No random network > access, no > untrusted access, no hacking. He has never had an incident > involving > this system. It can be done. >=20 >=20 > > The trojans, worms, viruses etc these > personal > > devices might pick up on external networks are typically designed > to > > propagate themselves and /or look for servers with known holes > and > > exploit them. >=20 > Not if you don't allow them to connect in the first place. One has > to > understand the difference between business and personal. "And > never > the twain shall meet!!" See above note about locking down business laptops. To do this properly, most Sales and Exec types would object to a central group disabling the power on button as it might tend to limit the laptops use. >=20 > > > > If you were a bad type person, what better approach to get into a > large > > corp like a stock exchange than to write a trojan, worm etc that > gets on > > an employees personal device (laptop or ? that all have browsers > and > > sometimes IIS services running themselves) installed directly on > the > > Cust internal network and then looks for known server holes?=3D20 >=20 > Read my lips. No personal devices on the company lan. Period. > And > that's just physical security, we aren't even talking MS here. You > don't let strangers wander in and out of your computer room, do > you? > So why would you let untrusted "strangers" connect to your LAN? >=20 > > > > Course, you could always take away the employees (traders?) > Laptops and > > PDA's ... yeah right. >=20 > Not take them away. If they need one fro business you provide it > and > you see to it that it is suitably locked down. And you don't allow > personal PDA's and laptops on your LAN. Period. >=20 See above. Try telling Sales and Exec's that they can not use their company provided PDA's at work. That will surely bring a round of laughter. Ever wonder why the nick name for blackberry is "crackberry"? > > > > Now see above notes about whether a server platform that has 5-20 > new > > security patches released *each and every month* seems like such > a good > > future platform strategy for important applications. >=20 > Works for me. The only "virus" on our network during my trip to > germany > was on paper only and required us to go through all the procedures > we > would have done in the event of a real virus. This was to test our > knowledge of and ability to perform all the necessary technical and > paperwork requirements in the event of a real one. A real one > never > happened. Probably because even though all of these machines > coming > from all over the world were known to come from other secure > networks > theya ll had to go through a "decontamination station" prior to > going > on our network. >=20 > It takes a good and well defined strategy involving physical > security, > administrative control and technical competence but any system can > be > secured. The biggest problem is walking that fine line between > security > and convenience to the user. But it definitely can be done. I > know, > because I have to do it. >=20 > bill >=20 If you have company provided laptops that get used on external networks, then I can almost guarantee that these laptops have "buggies". I am not saying the steps you are promoting should not be done, but rather that doing these alone in the hope that you will not have to apply all these known monthly server security patches is not a sound strategy. The sophistication of the bag guys and their "buggies" today + the volume of monthly security patches for Windows/Linux is just way to much of a risk to depend on. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 12:00:51 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > $ exit(2928) %SYSTEM-W-NOMSG ? Or are you using a different version of VMS? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:53:10 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 07/09/07 12:00, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" writes: >> $ exit(2928) > > %SYSTEM-W-NOMSG ? Or are you using a different version of VMS? In v8.2, this is what happens: $ EXIT (2928) %SYSTEM-W-FISH, my hovercraft is full of eels -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 02:18:27 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: <1183972707.510222.68930@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On 6 Jul, 18:06, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:45:40 -0700, David J Dachtera > > > > > > wrote: > > "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote: > > >> I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the > >> serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial console. > >> The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when I plug it in > >> to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is the characters > >> I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the baud rate, bits, > >> parity & stop bits. > > >> Any clues? > > > Does the MSA need to see the modem control signals asserted? (DTR/DSR, > > CTS/RTS, > > etc.) > > Are you sure the port is TTA0? does SET HOST/SCSI work with MSA devices? > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - SET HOST/SCSI doesn't work, but there is an MSA_UTIL.EXE in SYS$ETC which can be used to connect to the MSA from a booted VMS system. It's a fraction more brain-dead than the MSA console itself, but only a bit. btw, who was it that decided that you had to use EXACT syntax on the MSA1000 controllers? Why forget the behaviour of things like HSZ70s? *sigh* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:05:34 -0700 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: <1183979134.547689.226440@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 10:18 am, etmsr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > On 6 Jul, 18:06, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:45:40 -0700, David J Dachtera > > > wrote: > > > "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote: > > > >> I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the > > >> serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial console. > > >> The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when I plug it in > > >> to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is the characters > > >> I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the baud rate, bits, > > >> parity & stop bits. > > > >> Any clues? > > > > Does the MSA need to see the modem control signals asserted? (DTR/DSR, > > > CTS/RTS, > > > etc.) > > > Are you sure the port is TTA0? does SET HOST/SCSI work with MSA devices? > > > -- > > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com-Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > SET HOST/SCSI doesn't work, but there is an MSA_UTIL.EXE in SYS$ETC > which can be used to connect to the MSA from a booted VMS system. > It's a fraction more brain-dead than the MSA console itself, but only > a bit. > > btw, who was it that decided that you had to use EXACT syntax on the > MSA1000 controllers? Why forget the behaviour of things like HSZ70s? > *sigh* See also MSA _UTIL V1.0 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/01/29/7171032 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:25:58 -0700 From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" Subject: Re: Itanium serial ports Message-ID: IanMiller wrote: > On Jul 9, 10:18 am, etmsr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> On 6 Jul, 18:06, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:45:40 -0700, David J Dachtera >>> wrote: >>>> "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote: >>>>> I am setting up an OpenVMS Itanium cluster and would like to use the >>>>> serial port on an RX2620 (DB9) to connect to the MSA1000 serial console. >>>>> The cable supplied (RJ45 to DB9) works on a laptop but when I plug it in >>>>> to the Itanium and do a SET HOST/DTE TTA0:, all I get is the characters >>>>> I type echoed back to me. I have already checked the baud rate, bits, >>>>> parity & stop bits. >>>>> Any clues? >>>> Does the MSA need to see the modem control signals asserted? (DTR/DSR, >>>> CTS/RTS, >>>> etc.) >>> Are you sure the port is TTA0? does SET HOST/SCSI work with MSA devices? >>> -- >>> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com-Hide quoted text - >>> - Show quoted text - >> SET HOST/SCSI doesn't work, but there is an MSA_UTIL.EXE in SYS$ETC >> which can be used to connect to the MSA from a booted VMS system. >> It's a fraction more brain-dead than the MSA console itself, but only >> a bit. >> >> btw, who was it that decided that you had to use EXACT syntax on the >> MSA1000 controllers? Why forget the behaviour of things like HSZ70s? >> *sigh* > > > See also MSA _UTIL V1.0 > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=07/01/29/7171032 > This sounds good. I will try this but I still want to get to the bottom of the serial cable issue. My break out box did just that and broke. Due to my schedule the next chance I will have to try (with a new break out box) is next Thursday. Thanks to all who replied. Jeff Coffield ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 08:01:27 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5uIUQXXl9k6K@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > The majority of voters DID elect Bush the second time. The majority of > voters did NOT elect Bush the first time, but he had a majority in the > electoral system. One reason for the lack of credibility of the USA in > the world is that they claim to be a democratic society, but the person > who got the most popular votes (Al Gore, despite a) Nader getting an > appreciable chunk of his votes (see below) and b) all the problems in > Florida) did not get elected. If, say, Milosovic had implemented such > an electoral system in Yugoslavia, the rest of the world would have > (rightly) said "Whom are you trying to fool?". Let's see. The winner is declared by a political appointee in the same party who was appointed by the candidate's brother. When legally questioned the winner was confirmed by a court who's majority was appointed by members of the same party, including the candidate's father. Later on the members of the court claim that they cannot understand the popular negative reaction to their decision. Sound like third world politics to you? Remember that early on in the candidate's administration a region that did not vote for the candidate was faced with rolling blackouts from power companies trying to take advantage of local legislator's mistakes and the national administration sat back and ignored it. Sound like some third world country to you? The best description of King George I've heard is "post turtle", which supposedly also came from Texas. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 08:04:35 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: RE: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <000e01c7c152$e7c75d70$b7561850$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > > A lot of my European friends were amazed that there were no riots when Bush > was elected the first time. I don't think anyone who has assimilated U.S> > culture was, and most were kind of surprised that some Europeans *did*. The behaviour of people along the route of the presidential motorcade between the Capitol and the White House after the first inauguration came close to a riot. It might have been more lively, but the federal and local officers ignored Constitutional rights to prevent some people from being fully heard. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:25:01 +0100 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: > The proper way to do this is not to have the runoff between the two top > candidates in the first round, but rather to remove the candidate who > did worst and have the runoff between the remaining candidates, > iterating until there are just two left. Which is precisely how it is done here in Ireland. Voters don't put an X on the paper, they number the candidates 1, 2, 3 in preference. You only have to go to the polls once, and the vote can't be 'split' as it can in the cruder systems. --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:29:38 +0100 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: > Of course, there are also the British Isles (which also includes the > Republic of Ireland, which is not a member of NATO (though it is an EU > member) Citizens of the Republic of Ireland are also not British, which is why the term "British Isles" is a misnomer (and not used in this country). It is about as accurate as "French West Africa" or "French Indo-China" - an anachronistic throw-off from a former empire. --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:17:56 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/09/07 08:29, Tom Wade wrote: > >> Of course, there are also the British Isles (which also includes the >> Republic of Ireland, which is not a member of NATO (though it is an EU >> member) > > Citizens of the Republic of Ireland are also not British, which is why > the term "British Isles" is a misnomer (and not used in this country). > It is about as accurate as "French West Africa" or "French Indo-China" - > an anachronistic throw-off from a former empire. I can understand the term still being used, though, because of the Isle of Mann, Isle of Wight, Gurnsey, etc, and all the little islands up around Scotland. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 14:35:44 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5feve0F3c425mU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Bill Todd writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <468dca0b$0$25492$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>, >> Wilm Boerhout writes: >>> on 5-7-2007 20:19 Bill Gunshannon wrote... >>> >>>> Personally, I have changed my opinion. I, too, think we should bring >>>> all our troops home. Not just from Iraq and Afghanistan but from Korea, >>>> Germany, England and everywhere else outside the US. And we should place >>>> them along the north and south borders and keep all foreigners out of >>>> the country. Including all those snowbirds with the Quebec license plates >>>> who live down here 6 months of the year without paying a penny in taxes >>>> and drive on our highways totally ignoring laws like speed limits!! >>> Welcome to the land of the free and the home of the brave. So free and >>> so brave that you, Bill, like to build fence all around it. >> >> Gee, I thought the rest of the world wanted us to stay out of their >> affairs. And here I am suggesting just that. And keeping them out >> of ours. > > There's a significant difference between being a good, non-interfering > neighbor and being a reclusive xenophobe, Bill. "phobe" = "fear". I don't fear foreigners. I am just beginning to not like them. And I certainly see no reason why we should take in all the worlds freeloaders. > It's one thing to "keep > out of each other's affairs", and quite another to fence everyone else > out, period. I think the US should have a couple of designated "ports of entry". Anyone having a legitimate reason to come here can use them. But having wide open borders doesn't provide any advantage to us at all. I also think there should be time limits on how long foreigners can stay. Living here half the year while paying no taxes to support the infrastructure you are relying on is just plain crap. I have a former student of ours who is very busy trying to straighten out his life enough to finally get his degree (he is actually only one course short, it's a long story!!) because he wants to go to Canada and they will not let him in without a degree. And yet the world seems to think we should take in the lazy and the stupid without question. > >> >>> Well, if it >>> keeps you in... Why bother in the first place? You are already owned by >>> China anyway. >> >> Dream on. China needs our money a lot more than we need their products. >> We can make shirts here, can China make American dollars? > > The disturbing part is that China already *has* so much of our money > (both physically, and in IOUs - and one major U.S. default on > international debt is all it would take to plunge the dollar into the > toilet for real). Or start tariffing Chinese garbage like other countries do our stuff. Have you ever compared the price of American made goods in Europe compared to in the US? I was in Germany for the realeas of Vista. The price difference between here and there was astronomical. And it has always been like that. I still have my German Tandy Computer catalog from the late 70's around here somewhere. My Model 4 cost me about $400. German price - $2500. That does a lot to keep the balance of trade down. We should do likewise for foreign goods. It's tough for American companies to compete with Chinese slave labor. > > And that financial flow (and the reverse flow of inexpensive products) > is all that keeps a large portion of our population from a significantly > lower standard of living. > > China can find (and already is finding) perfectly good markets in the > rest of the world (and in its own rapidly-expanding economy) for its > products. > >> >>> Ever heard of earning money before spending it? >> >> What's that got to do with anything? > > Guess you won't be looking for a job in finance any time soon. > > ... > > We are either >> imperialists or provincials. > > No: we're both. Bill, I don't understand why you haven't moved to Canada. You have hated everything about this country since you were a child. I can't imagine why you stay. Unless it's becasue no matter how much you and others try to run it down it's still the best country in the world. That's why there are a lot more people (orders of magnitude) trying to get in compared to trying to get out. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 07:35:24 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: In article <1183809907.484102.171240@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > While they do add new features, I question the "fewer bugs" part. I don't mean to imply that fewer bugs is a necessary part of any Microsoft update, just one of the avenues available for selling updates. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:15:01 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <1183990501.384488.96830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 8:35 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <1183809907.484102.171...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > > > > While they do add new features, I question the "fewer bugs" part. > > I don't mean to imply that fewer bugs is a necessary part of any > Microsoft update, just one of the avenues available for selling > updates. An avenue not take often enough! AEF ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 14:20:43 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: PowerPc vs Alpha Message-ID: <5feuhrF3cmmpkU2@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > > PS. I've just converted 6 AIFF files to MP3 on both platforms. The Alpha > took 8 minutes using ~98% of the CPU; the iBook 34 minutes, using 23% > of the CPU. Not much in it regarding raw CPU from that measurement, but > the elapsed times tell a different story. > > Another aspect is that I can throw a CPU intensive job at VMS without > noticing any significant performance degradation when doing such tasks > as editing, but on the Mac I _do_ notice. > > IOW, it's worth running stuff on the Alpha for both the decrease in > elapsed times and maintaining good response times on the Mac. I would attribute that to the OS rather than the hardware. My guess would be major differences in scheduling and priority schemes. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 08:10:49 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: In article <4690BCA4.32596.2C453881@squayle.insight.rr.com>, "Stanley F. Quayle" writes: > I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 (Alpha). > However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part > number. Anyone have that handy? > Doesn't it seem odd that HP can't figure out the part number for their own product? Image trying to by a used Camaro and having a Chevy dealer ask you what the part number is? I know if I go to one of several stores the store will find the part number for the ink for my HP printer. I guess VMS just isn't ink. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:44:26 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <_Yqki.23199$Fc.3426@attbi_s21> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <4690BCA4.32596.2C453881@squayle.insight.rr.com>, "Stanley F. Quayle" writes: > >>I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 (Alpha). >>However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part >>number. Anyone have that handy? >> > Doesn't it seem odd that HP can't figure out the part number for > their own product? > > Image trying to by a used Camaro and having a Chevy dealer ask you > what the part number is? I had that happen with a Pontiac Phoenix. Apparently some of the parts are different based on the serial number in the VIN and this was not in the parts guide. For the AC/FAN switch, one of the contacts was normally open for some set of VINS and for others normally closed. The parts department was unwilling to locate the correct part. I ended up installing a 12 volt relay to get the car working again, as that was the only GM parts depot with in any reasonable driving distance. > I know if I go to one of several stores the store will find the part > number for the ink for my HP printer. I guess VMS just isn't ink. I had to go to several stores to find ink for my HP Deskjet 540, several of them had lookup tables that were missing that printer. A few may have carried it for a different model as one of their FAX machines used the same cartridge. It looks like I will be scrapping the printer though, as the black ink cartridge was priced at about $40, and I think I will save up for a color laser printer instead, as I am having more problems with ink cartridges going bad than I am with having them run out, and I have heard that the color lasers do not have that issue. The problem is finding competitive pricing on different color laser printers that supports PostScript, Network, and possibly duplex right out of the box. At the local stores, I can only find one model that admits to all of that, and I would prefer to have some choices. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 11:17:45 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] > Sent: July 9, 2007 9:11 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 >=20 > In article <4690BCA4.32596.2C453881@squayle.insight.rr.com>, > "Stanley F. Quayle" writes: > > I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 > (Alpha). > > However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a > part > > number. Anyone have that handy? > > >=20 > Doesn't it seem odd that HP can't figure out the part number for > their own product? >=20 > Image trying to by a used Camaro and having a Chevy dealer ask > you > what the part number is? >=20 > I know if I go to one of several stores the store will find the > part > number for the ink for my HP printer. I guess VMS just isn't > ink. Typically, the SPD for a specific OS version has all the media and license p/n's. http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/SP2501/SP2501PF.PDF (V7.3-2) http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/XAV12X/XAV12XPF.PDF (V8.3) For additional SW licensing Information: http://licensing.hp.com/swl/view.slm?page=3Dcontacts =20 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/swcat/us/swprodlibs.html=20 Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:11:01 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <1394ngbopude1cd@news.supernews.com> should be QA-MT1AA-H8 That was the part number we used to order 7.3-2 Of course, they may be shipping V8.3 under that PN now but methinks this one is correct David "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message news:4690BCA4.32596.2C453881@squayle.insight.rr.com... >I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 (Alpha). > However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part > number. Anyone have that handy? > > The part number for the latest 7.3-2 layered product distribution > would be handy, too... > > Thanks! > > --Stan Quayle > Quayle Consulting Inc. > > ---------- > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA > stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:11:45 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: Part number for VMS 7.3-2 Message-ID: <1394nhnmk9000e6@news.supernews.com> QA-03XAA-H8 This should be the layered products cdrom kit About 7 CD package I believe David "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message news:4690BCA4.32596.2C453881@squayle.insight.rr.com... >I have a customer that needs to get the media for VMS 7.3-2 (Alpha). > However, HP is telling them that they can do nothing without a part > number. Anyone have that handy? > > The part number for the latest 7.3-2 layered product distribution > would be handy, too... > > Thanks! > > --Stan Quayle > Quayle Consulting Inc. > > ---------- > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA > stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:38:28 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article <5fd16lF3cclb5U1@mid.individual.net>, Ken Fairfield wrote: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > In article , "P. > > Sture" writes: > > > >> We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well for > >> us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set > >> (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both > >> shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching > >> for 90+ GB of backup tapes. > > > > So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. > > > > What about striping shadow sets? > > > > Instead of > > > > |1| |1| > > |2| |2| > > |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| > > |4| |4| > > |5| |5| > > > > use > > > > |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| > > |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| > > |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| > > |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| > > |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| > > > > ? > > > > In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second > > case, it affects 2. > > Indeed, that (striping shadow sets) is what VMS Host-based RAID does. > It was in very *extensive* use at my last employer. As to another > poster's remark, I had stripe sets of 6x142GB shadowsets (12 spindles > in all). > and from your other post: > It's not > as surprising that Host-based striping (RAID-0) is a layered product. > It depends upon the shadowing software already being present and just > adds one more layer on top of that. Thanks. I see how that works now. Is there any appreciable overhead with this setup? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:49:40 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:50:49 -0700, P. Sture > wrote: > > > In article , > > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > > reply) wrote: > > > >> In article , "P. > >> Sture" writes: > >> > >> > We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well > >> for > >> > us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe > >> set > >> > (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both > >> > shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching > >> > for 90+ GB of backup tapes. > >> > >> So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. > >> > >> What about striping shadow sets? > >> > >> Instead of > >> > >> |1| |1| > >> |2| |2| > >> |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| > >> |4| |4| > >> |5| |5| > >> > >> use > >> > >> |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| > >> |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| > >> |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| > >> |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| > >> |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| > >> > >> ? > >> > >> In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second > >> case, it affects 2. > > > > Er, can you do that? I haven't used VMS striping, so don't know whether > > shadowing or striping would be at the lower level. > > HSG80-TOP>sho mirror > Name Storageset Uses Used by > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > MIRR_0 mirrorset DISK50000 DVGRPSM0 > DISK60200 > > MIRR_1 mirrorset DISK30300 DVGRPSM0 > DISK40000 > HSG80-TOP>sho stripe > Name Storageset Uses Used by > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > DVGRPSM0 stripeset MIRR_0 D11 > MIRR_1 > Yes, but that's doing it all by hardware. Philip's suggestion was using HBVS (Host Based Volume Shadowing). HSG80s can no doubt handle the load of both striping and mirroring, but I'm not sure that yesteryear's models had the horsepower (we managed to push HSJ40s past their limits - probably more than a decade old now, but I still see the odd mention of them here). -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 07:49:30 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: In article <0EB84CAC-2E5F-49AB-90CC-700239AFD8E2@raulersons.com>, Paul Raulerson writes: > > HOW do I fix this???????????? > You write your own terminal driver which does not follow VMS standards for the meaning of that ASCII DELETE character. Or you write your own interface using SMG or $QIO where you capture the character and handle it as you please. There is no RUBOUT defined in my many copies of the ASCII character set. There is BACKSPACE and DELETE. By VMS standard BACKSPACE is used to do things like move to the begining of line, DELETE is used to do things like remove the character to the _left_ of the cursor. On the last few series of DEC VT terinals there is a button with a graphic that looks something like In article <000101c7c1dc$b43ab260$1cb01720$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > That is because the frustration is killing me. :) > > Aw well- > Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a PC or a > Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the little Alpha > machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in insert mode it does. > The character to the LEFT of the cursor disappears and the line closes up. > > When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see the pesky > DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC keyboard. And by > golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, it does REMOVE the block. > > But I really REALLY want the delete key to this: > I'm not sure that your "backspace" key is really configured to send an ASCII backspace. As far as what happens when you hit the PC delete key, that depends on what your terinal emulator sends as well as what TPU is programmed to do with it. It sounds like it's programmed to send the escape sequence equivalent to the DEC Remove key. IF so, you can program TPU to do whatever you want when it receives Remove. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:13:50 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <1183990430.530355.12220@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 8, 11:55 pm, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > P.S. - You were kidding about Dec terminals not doing that, weren't you?? > . > -Paul You mean not deleting to the right on a command line? No. You can't do that. Sure, in the EDT editor you can delete to the right, but that's the comma key on the right keypad. You can tell EVE to use the EDT keypad and then it will work there to. Just define the logical name EVE $KEYPAD to be EDT or run the SET KEYPAD EDT command while in the EVE editor. The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a command and edit it with vi commands. In MS-DOS, you can move by word, but not delete by word. In VMS, you can't move by word -- you can only move to the begining, end, or one character at a time. Enough! AEF > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2...@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:57 PM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > > On Jul 8, 7:01 pm, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > > > > I'm sure this must be just my less than urbane upbringing showing > > > through, but doggone it! > > > I REALLY want the DELETE key on my keyboard to DELETE the Character > > > to the RIGHT of the cursor, > > > and then move the entire remaining line one character LEFT to close > > > up the line. > > > Since when does a VT terminal or DECterm do this? (I haven't used > > DECterm or DECwindows since 1991, so maybe it's a new feature I > > haven't heard of.) > > > You're talking about deleting on the command line or in an editor? > > I'm assuming the command line. > > > > For the life of me - PowerTerm, DecTerm under DecWindows, Putty, > > > every last thing I have tried save > > > PCOMM, insists on making the DELETE key the VMS REMOVE key. If I > > > wanted to CUT a batch of text, I would use the > > > remove key... but I wanna DELETE that blasted character right to the > > > RIGHT of my cursed cursor!! > > > What remove key? If Del is configured to be Remove, then I'd think > > there is no Del key. Which delete key are you talking about? Is this a > > PC? A Mac? > > > > DEFINE /KEY REMOVE DELETE just makes the pesky key send out "DELETE". > > > > HOW do I fix this???????????? > > > Are you trying to make the delete key on a VT keyboard that normally > > deletes to the left delete to the right? I think you'd have to rewrite > > the terminal driver. > > > > > > > > Thank you, and I promise to go pound myself silly if I did not look > > > adequately to find the answer. :) > > > Paul > > > > P.S. I made PCOMM work by writing a Macro to move one character > > > right, then backspace one. Horribly slow. > > > Details please. You haven't supplied any relevant details. > > > AEF- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:34:32 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <46924778.9060604@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <0EB84CAC-2E5F-49AB-90CC-700239AFD8E2@raulersons.com>, Paul Raulerson writes: > >>HOW do I fix this???????????? >> > > > You write your own terminal driver which does not follow VMS > standards for the meaning of that ASCII DELETE character. > > Or you write your own interface using SMG or $QIO where you capture > the character and handle it as you please. > > There is no RUBOUT defined in my many copies of the ASCII character > set. There is BACKSPACE and DELETE. By VMS standard BACKSPACE is > used to do things like move to the begining of line, DELETE is used > to do things like remove the character to the _left_ of the cursor. > > On the last few series of DEC VT terinals there is a button with > a graphic that looks something like either send the ASCII BACKSPACE or DELETE characters. I've seen > it refered to as the RUBOUT button, but those are the two characters > it can send. > > (I know I have seen the term RUBOUT elsewhere to refer to the ASCII > DELETE character, but that doesn't help here.) > > On the most recent versions of VMS you can tell the terminal driver > to treat BACKSPACE in the manner defined for DELETE. I don't think > you can tell it what to do with DELETE. > > And then there are PC keyboards with a button marked DELETE. What > that will send depends on your terminal emulator. What VMS will do > with it does not. > > I believe that "rubout" is a hangover from the days of yesteryear when teletypes and paper tape punches were more common. A "rubout" was all one bits and was used for "correcting" paper tape. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:26:55 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <3tski.270$LE1.25@newsfe13.lga> On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: [snip] > > The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and > VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you > delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. > Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a > command and edit it with vi commands. In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:45:17 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <1183995917.053252.292890@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 11:26 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: > [snip] > > > > > The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and > > VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you > > delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. > > Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a > > command and edit it with vi commands. > > In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command > line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous > word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. What is "normal PC editing control"? ^W -- cool! How do you do vi-editing in a bash command? AEF > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. [...] ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 11:57:41 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <6kvKhNzqQzy7@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <46924778.9060604@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > I believe that "rubout" is a hangover from the days of yesteryear when > teletypes and paper tape punches were more common. A "rubout" was all > one bits and was used for "correcting" paper tape. > It can be worse. SEL 32 was confiugured to be compatable with ADM-3 terminals where ASCII DELETE was sent by the RUB key. But RUB was shifted, so the system accepted underscore which was on the same key, but not shifted. Now just try putting an underscore in a text file. ADM-3 also had arrows on the hjkl keys in the manner of the vi editor commands and the wonderfull position of shift-lock as a dip switch under a screw-on cover. Oh, how we enjoyed our first VT100s. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:29:59 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <46927097.40108@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <46924778.9060604@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>I believe that "rubout" is a hangover from the days of yesteryear when >>teletypes and paper tape punches were more common. A "rubout" was all >>one bits and was used for "correcting" paper tape. >> > > It can be worse. SEL 32 was confiugured to be compatable with ADM-3 > terminals where ASCII DELETE was sent by the RUB key. But RUB was > shifted, so the system accepted underscore which was on the same key, > but not shifted. > > Now just try putting an underscore in a text file. ADM-3 also had > arrows on the hjkl keys in the manner of the vi editor commands and > the wonderfull position of shift-lock as a dip switch under a > screw-on cover. > > Oh, how we enjoyed our first VT100s. > Oh the joys of the early video terminals. No two models, even from the same manufacturer, used the same set of control codes. It was only AFTER the VT100 that manufacturers began to standardize. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:42:12 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jul 2007, Paul Raulerson wrote: > Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a > PC or a Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the > little Alpha machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in > insert mode it does. The character to the LEFT of the cursor > disappears and the line closes up. > > When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see the > pesky DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC > keyboard. And by golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, > it does REMOVE the block. As others have mentioned, there is no such function defined in the ASCII character set. Any such function has to be performed by the host up receipt of the associated key codes. Fortunately the application of interest is a text editor, specifically "TPU", which allows you to attach arbitrary functions to arbitrary keys. The command you want is: DEFINE KEY=REMOVE ERASE CHARACTER Of course, once you do this, you will lose the normal function of this key, which is to cut the selected text from the current buffer to the past buffer. As has been pointed out already, the function you request is already mapped to the keypad-comma key if you have selected the EDT keypad, and to PF4 if you have selected the WPS keypad. >>> I REALLY want the DELETE key on my keyboard to DELETE the >>> Character to the RIGHT of the cursor, and then move the entire >>> remaining line one character LEFT to close up the line. In EVE (the editor most often invoked when you say EDIT/TPU) this depends on whether you are in INSERT or OVERSTRIKE mode. In INSERT mode, you will get the behaviour you specify. In OVERSTRIKE mode, the character will be replaced by a space. >>> For the life of me - PowerTerm, DecTerm under DecWindows, Putty, >>> every last thing I have tried save PCOMM, insists on making the >>> DELETE key the VMS REMOVE key. If I wanted to CUT a batch of text, >>> I would use the remove key... but I wanna DELETE that blasted >>> character right to the RIGHT of my cursed cursor!! You have both a DELETE key and a REMOVE key? Have fun! -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 16:36:36 +0100 From: Anton Shterenlikht Subject: SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000 - cannot connect to serial of rj-45 port Message-ID: <20070709153636.GA25749@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk> I'm trying to setup SAN switch 2/8 on MSA1000. When I use serial port I just get # cu -l /dev/cuad0 Connected and nothing is happening after that. I tried tip and minicom with the same result. The connection settings, like parity, flow control, etc. are just as in the manual. If I try to use ethernet (straight cable, the manual says "switch will automatically sense the cable configuration used", so it should work) I get % telnet 10.77.77.77 Trying 10.77.77.77... telnet: connect to address 10.77.77.77: Operation timed out telnet: Unable to connect to remote host No LED indicate a problem or a fault. The MSA LCD panel gives 01 MSA1000 STARTUP COMPLETE and SanSwitch 2/8 IP Adr 10.77.77.77 I used the same null modem (cross-over) cable to connect to serial ports on ds10l and rx2620 with no problems. I can even see the configured volumes on MSA1000 from ds10l. So the swith seems to be working ok. Can this be some sort of serial port failure? Is there any other diagnostics I could do? thanks a lot anton -- Anton Shterenlikht Room 2.6, Queen's Building Mech Eng Dept Bristol University University Walk, Bristol BS8 1TR, UK Tel: +44 (0)117 928 8233 Fax: +44 (0)117 929 4423 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 06:37:24 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: SEARCH: expected result? Message-ID: In article <1183931046.527179.250910@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jul 8, 12:08 am, David J Dachtera > wrote: >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> >> >> >> > In article <468FB54F.A9E0F...@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera >> > writes: >> >> > > Zero-length records contain no data to compare. >> >> > Yes, but the comparison is with something else of zero length. 0=0, >> > right? Note that SEARCH does count an empty line as a record. >> >> However, if there is nothing to compare, why attempt a comparison? The results >> would be misleading, no? > > Well, where in a non-zero-length string is the zero-length substring? > Since the entire string is highlighted, it must be everywhere. But is > it not, in fact, nowhere? The match occurs at every offset within the record (and, arguably at every offset outside the record as well). But each such match is zero bytes long. So although we have a match at each character offset, no character is actually matched. > >> Also, zero bytes of data is quite different from either a zero length string or >> a null byte. > > How is zero bytes of data different from a zero-length string? How > many bytes are in a zero-length string? Zero! > > What exactly is a null byte? No byte at all or a byte containing 8 > zeros? OK, I guess the latter would be the null character. Whatever. > > Mathematically, a string can be considered to be an ordered set of > characters (with replacement) or a function mapping a set of > characters (replaceable) to a set of consecutive integers > (usually .GE. 1 or with an "offset of zero", depending on the > context). > > A STRING > 12345678 > > I'm not sure at this point what to make of a zero-length string or > zero-length substring. I might have to review my Analysis book which > starts with a review of set theory! I don't recall that my analysis book delved into strings or substrings. It seems clear to me that: 1. The null string is string. 2. The null string is a substring of every string. 3. Except for the null string, no string is a substring of the null string. The truth of these assertions will fall out of the definitions of string and substring. Here's an attempt at a definition suite: N: The natural numbers. String: A "string" S over a character set C is a function from a [finite] initial segment of N to C. Range: The "range" of a string S is that finite initial segment of N over which S is defined. Null string: A string S [over C] is said to be the "null string" if its range is the empty set. Substring: A string s [over C] is a "substring" of a string S [over C] if and only if: There exists an integer i such that for all x in the range of s x+i is in the range of S and s(x) = S(x+i) Lemma: The null string is a substring of every string Proof: Trivial. Take i = 123. The "for all" is vacuously satisfied since the range of s is the empty set. Note well that this proof proceeds without incident, even if S is the null string. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:32:10 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: SEARCH: expected result? Message-ID: <1183987930.231097.206940@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 9, 7:37 am, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article <1183931046.527179.250...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > > On Jul 8, 12:08 am, David J Dachtera > > wrote: > >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > >> > In article <468FB54F.A9E0F...@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera > >> > writes: > > >> > > Zero-length records contain no data to compare. > > >> > Yes, but the comparison is with something else of zero length. 0=0, > >> > right? Note that SEARCH does count an empty line as a record. > > >> However, if there is nothing to compare, why attempt a comparison? The results > >> would be misleading, no? > > > Well, where in a non-zero-length string is the zero-length substring? > > Since the entire string is highlighted, it must be everywhere. But is > > it not, in fact, nowhere? > > The match occurs at every offset within the record (and, arguably at > every offset outside the record as well). But each such match is zero > bytes long. So although we have a match at each character offset, > no character is actually matched. > > > > >> Also, zero bytes of data is quite different from either a zero length string or > >> a null byte. > > > How is zero bytes of data different from a zero-length string? How > > many bytes are in a zero-length string? Zero! > > > What exactly is a null byte? No byte at all or a byte containing 8 > > zeros? OK, I guess the latter would be the null character. Whatever. > > > Mathematically, a string can be considered to be an ordered set of > > characters (with replacement) or a function mapping a set of > > characters (replaceable) to a set of consecutive integers > > (usually .GE. 1 or with an "offset of zero", depending on the > > context). > > > A STRING > > 12345678 > > > I'm not sure at this point what to make of a zero-length string or > > zero-length substring. I might have to review my Analysis book which > > starts with a review of set theory! > > I don't recall that my analysis book delved into strings or substrings. > > It seems clear to me that: > > 1. The null string is string. > 2. The null string is a substring of every string. > 3. Except for the null string, no string is a substring of the > null string. > > The truth of these assertions will fall out of the definitions > of string and substring. > > Here's an attempt at a definition suite: > > N: The natural numbers. > > String: > > A "string" S over a character set C is a function from a [finite] > initial segment of N to C. > > Range: > > The "range" of a string S is that finite initial segment of N over which > S is defined. > > Null string: > > A string S [over C] is said to be the "null string" if its range is the > empty set. > > Substring: > > A string s [over C] is a "substring" of a string S [over C] if and only if: > > There exists an integer i such that > for all x in the range of s > x+i is in the range of S and > s(x) = S(x+i) > > Lemma: > > The null string is a substring of every string > > Proof: > > Trivial. Take i = 123. The "for all" is vacuously satisfied > since the range of s is the empty set. > > Note well that this proof proceeds without incident, even if > S is the null string. OK, that's pretty good. Now that it's not late at night I can think a little more clearly! Anyway, yes, I think even in regular set theory the emtpy set is a subset of every set because every element of the empty set is also an element of any set. OK. However, consider the set {1, 2, 4}. If you were to search and highlight the subset {1, 4} within that set, you'd get {*1*, 2, *4*}. And if you were to highlight the empty set in that set, you'd get {1, 2, 4}. So why does SEARCH highlight every character? I don't see how the empty set is hiding as the "offset" of each character. Also, doesn't this mean that Phillip Helbig has a point? Shouldn't the empty records also be matched? (Good luck highlighting those!) This is why I suspect the code ignores empty records and then searches for substrings. So while it is true that the null string is a subset of the hightlighted records, the highlighted records are not the null string, so I think they should not be highlighted and I think empty records should be matched if you are going to go with this mathematical analysis. AEF AEF ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 07:53:44 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > What is the best (simplest) way to send a mail message at a specific time > in the future? VMSMail on AXP 7.3-1 thru 8.3 Put the mail command in a .COM file and submit it to batch with the /after qualifier. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:48:06 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: <1183988886.928160.234580@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On 9 Jul, 13:53, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > What is the best (simplest) way to send a mail message at a specific time > > in the future? VMSMail on AXP 7.3-1 thru 8.3 > > Put the mail command in a .COM file and submit it to batch with the > /after qualifier. I'd agree with all of the comments here. Have a generic queue pointing at execution batch queues, one on each node. Then send the mail from a batch job submitted /AFTER= I used to send mails like this at college so that it appeared I was in the office when I was 150 miles away... ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 11:59:33 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Send Mail at specific time Message-ID: In article <1183988886.928160.234580@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk writes: > > I used to send mails like this at college so that it appeared I was in > the office when I was 150 miles away... I used to use this technique to edit welcome.txt in the middle of my vacation and send reminders to the programmers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:43:01 -0000 From: aaa.vms@gmail.com Subject: Re: SSL/TLS Stuff (was Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server)) Message-ID: <1183970581.494060.33240@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> Hello, Richard! Sorry for the long silence. On 6 , 05:16, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi Ruslan (or anyone), > > Was it you I helped with that UWSS that looked up SYSUAF? (and who now feels > honour-bound to return the favour and help me with this question(s) :-) Yep. I keep in my mind the your help in the past. > > [1] I saw your code and the SSL_Read calls but I can't find any mention in > there, or the (minimalist) OpenSSL docs, about how to handle TCP/IP > Out-Of-Band character processing. I believe the SSLv3 specification > explicitly states that the OOB data is to be packaged up as a normal SSL > record (albeit wrappering a single byte) but it doesn't say much sbout how > the receiving end gets told about it. Flag? Record Type? Any ideas? I'm not a guru in the SSL programming. In the POP3 i have not used the OOB processing. > > Is there a SSL_Select somewhere? > > Is there a MSG_OOB flag on the read somewhere? (How do you do a MSG_PEEK in > SSL for that matter?) I think that you can use "BIO object" to perform your specific handling of the network I/O. > > [2] Assuming that OpenSSL somehow surfaces the interface for OOB > transmission, can anyone see any reason why STUNNEL doesn't support it? > (unless it's "inlined") Sorry, I dunno. > > [3] If OpenSSL is now a System Integrated Product (SIP) why is C the only > supported interface? It looks about as "Integrated" as a buttock boil! I think that and prog. lang. can use the SSL API. > > Cheers Richard Maher > > "Ruslan R. Laishev" > wrote in messagenews:9577ECA761293C77F6B6D9886F6B7033@NNTP.DeltaTel.RU... > > > Hello! > > > > 2. If necessary, tell your client that you're going to use APOP. > > > There is a POP3 with TLS support (TLS is supported by most POP3 clients), > just > > got it and use it, and lost an interest to the problem. > > > -- > > + WBR, OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker ............. Skype: SysMan-One + > > Delta Telecom JSC, IMT-MC-450(CDMA2000) cellular operator > > Russia,191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3 Cel: +7 (812) 716-3222 > > +http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru............. Frying on OpenVMS only + ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:07:49 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: SSL/TLS Stuff (was Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server)) Message-ID: Thanks anyway. I'll try and lookup this BIO Object thing. Cheers Richard Maher PS. If only IPSec was here and Network Layer Security was a reality on VMS :-( Go and buy Multinet TODAY! Time and time again VMS engineering has proven that they couldn't give two shits about UCX (apart from spending more than the entire devlopment budget to rename it to TCP/IP Services) either that or they are simply incapable of providing an industrial strength version of the LP before everyone else has switch to CDs and iPods.) But what the fuck do you care you "bread and circuses" system management types? All you want is a new lexical function called f$bell_volume(9) and you're in raptures; throw in a couple of never-ending threads on global-warming, noah's-ark and the gulf war and you're all nursing a semi! Why HP refuses to take this useless bunch of twats serously is an absolute mystery! wrote in message news:1183970581.494060.33240@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > Hello, Richard! > > Sorry for the long silence. > > On 6 , 05:16, "Richard Maher" wrote: > > Hi Ruslan (or anyone), > > > > Was it you I helped with that UWSS that looked up SYSUAF? (and who now feels > > honour-bound to return the favour and help me with this question(s) :-) > Yep. I keep in my mind the your help in the past. > > > > > [1] I saw your code and the SSL_Read calls but I can't find any mention in > > there, or the (minimalist) OpenSSL docs, about how to handle TCP/IP > > Out-Of-Band character processing. I believe the SSLv3 specification > > explicitly states that the OOB data is to be packaged up as a normal SSL > > record (albeit wrappering a single byte) but it doesn't say much sbout how > > the receiving end gets told about it. Flag? Record Type? Any ideas? > I'm not a guru in the SSL programming. In the POP3 i have not used > the OOB processing. > > > > > Is there a SSL_Select somewhere? > > > > Is there a MSG_OOB flag on the read somewhere? (How do you do a MSG_PEEK in > > SSL for that matter?) > I think that you can use "BIO object" to perform your specific > handling of the network I/O. > > > > > [2] Assuming that OpenSSL somehow surfaces the interface for OOB > > transmission, can anyone see any reason why STUNNEL doesn't support it? > > (unless it's "inlined") > Sorry, I dunno. > > > > > [3] If OpenSSL is now a System Integrated Product (SIP) why is C the only > > supported interface? It looks about as "Integrated" as a buttock boil! > I think that and prog. lang. can use the SSL API. > > > > > > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > "Ruslan R. Laishev" > > wrote in messagenews:9577ECA761293C77F6B6D9886F6B7033@NNTP.DeltaTel.RU... > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > 2. If necessary, tell your client that you're going to use APOP. > > > > > There is a POP3 with TLS support (TLS is supported by most POP3 clients), > > just > > > got it and use it, and lost an interest to the problem. > > > > > -- > > > + WBR, OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker ............. Skype: SysMan-One + > > > Delta Telecom JSC, IMT-MC-450(CDMA2000) cellular operator > > > Russia,191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3 Cel: +7 (812) 716-3222 > > > +http://starlet.deltatelecom.ru............. Frying on OpenVMS only + > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:27:22 +0000 (UTC) From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: Hello, is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for OpenVMS? Regards, Christoph Gartmann -- Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 Immunbiologie Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de D-79011 Freiburg, Germany http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:33:01 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: On 07/09/07 09:27, Christoph Gartmann wrote: > Hello, > > is there any newer non-graphical (command-line driven) newsreader for OpenVMS? Newer than????? tin and slrn? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 14:07:51 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Message-ID: <5fetpnF3cmmpkU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , "John Vottero" writes: >> >> Microsoft looked at DCL, Bash, Perl etc, etc, took the best aspects of each >> and came up with PowerShell. HP needs to replace DCL if it wants VMS to >> stay competitive. >> >> If you're interested, more PowerShell information is available here: >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/PowerShell >> > > WARNING: I just tried that. Downloaded the version for Windows XP > SP 2 x86 on my Windows XP SP2 Centrino. It caused the system to > crash during login. > > I had to get into safe mode and restore from the last restore point > (PowerShell did not show up as a removable component under software > or under Windows components). > > Now, what was Bill saying about properly admin'ed Windows being > reliable and useable? _NO_ other OS I've ever used crashed after > I loaded the supported version of some software. And being a typical desktop, you really don't know that program was the cause. Do you have Mozilla on that box? Opera? Firefox? ANy non-MS program? How do you know it did not install its own version of a DLL that lacks something critical that PowerShell now needs? I have seen these kinds of conflicts frequently over the years. Of course, that is one reason why in a well run operation (like my other job!!) you don't let the user install anything. Locking down the machine is meant to do more than prevent accidental installation of malware it is also intended to prevent the deliberate installation of conflicting programs. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 11:52:20 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: WARNING: BSOD (wasSCUP: Another opportunity Message-ID: In article <5fetpnF3cmmpkU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > And being a typical desktop, you really don't know that program was the > cause. I installed the program, the system crashed. I removed the program, the system stopped crashing. That's good enough for me. I'm well aware of .DLL wars. I feel quite certain thier Microsoft's fault for providing poor quality DLLs and documentation on thier contents to other providers. And still no other OS crashed in response to installing the supported version of software. When it's a user utility like a Windows shell, there's no excuse for a system crash as a result. The system crashes because of Windows design flaws. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:21:39 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/08/07 18:11, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> I'm sure we all feel horribly betrayed by immigrants who repay >>> our generosity by engaging in terrorists acts against their host >>> country >> >> That statement is demonstrably incorrect, since I (for one) do not. >> In fact, I consider such acts to be something approaching a public >> service (and thus an arguably appropriate response to our >> 'hospitality', such as it may be): if *we* won't clean up our act, >> I'm at least glad that *someone* is taking steps to do something about >> it. >> > > If you think indiscriminately killing civilians (many of whom may > have agreed with your view on US foreign policy) is an appropriate > act I guess that's your prerogative. I wonder if your opinion would > change if someone close to you was killed by one of these "public > services". He's probably from San Francisco. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eudy7hy940Y -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:35:50 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: In article , Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > The UK took in 1.06 immigrants/1000 population (2002 CIA estimate) That figure is out of date. The UK govt estimated that some 15,000 per year would immigrate from the "new" EU countries, but 600,000 turned up, over 400,000 from Poland alone. This is on top of the traditional immigration that would the CIA figures reflect. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5273356.stm The other existing EU countries adopted a phased approach to avoid a sudden rush, quite sensibly IMO. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 2007 08:05:23 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: RE: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <77MnCLEsqgfS@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <000b01c7c16f$dae638c0$90b2aa40$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > Who boy - it does not matter what Europeans consider about the U.S. system. > Any more than it matters what U.S. citizens consider about the > less-than-sane E.U. It's pretty much a free world, and people can choose to > live where they like. Oh, that that last sentence were ture for Burma et. al. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.372 ************************