INFO-VAX Thu, 12 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 377 Contents: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity awesome job board Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: DECnet copy question Re: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? RE: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? RE: Delete Key? Re: Delete Key? Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Re: F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Re: F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Re: F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: JobController no longer using fileid? Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Upgrading from 7.3-2 to 8.3: seeking advice Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:56:10 -0600 From: Jim Mehlhop Subject: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Message-ID: <469551FA.60408@mehlhop.org> Martin Vorlaender wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> Jim Mehlhop wrote: >>> David J Dachtera wrote: >>>> Tom Linden wrote: >>>>> If I do $ SHO DEV GG >>>>> only one device shows up, $1$GGA2: so that when used as argument to >>>>> set host/scsi gets me to the prompt >>>>> HSG80-TOP> >>> You could also >>> HSG80-TOP> other_controller (think that is the correct command) >>> to get to the other controller. This would not cause VMS to make a >>> switch. Assuming you are running dual controller. >> That doesn't work. I did have a vague recollection that there was some way >> to do what you are suggesting, but I don't see it from the commands > > All controller-related commands take THIS_CONTROLLER and OTHER_CONTROLLER (as > the first parameter, IIRC), so you can remote control the other controller. > E.g. > > HSG80-TOP> SHOW THIS > HSG80-TOP> SHOW OTHER > > HTH, > Martin That's the problem with not have dual redundant HSG80's at home! :-) Thanks Martin, Jim ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:32:20 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: In article , Fred Bach writes: > > Yes. 'Beautify' the code yourself. Get rid of all the native indenting, > and then create your own indenting. Every IF command increases the indent > level by THREE spaces, and every subsequent THEN and ELSE command increments > the indent level by a SPACE beyond the level of the previous IF. Or print it out on a fan-fold printer, lay that out in a long hallway, and trace bars down the left side. We had a guy who did that so much the juniour programmers named the bar traces after him. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:57:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <46956071.1020706@cox.net> On 07/11/07 16:32, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , Fred Bach writes: >> Yes. 'Beautify' the code yourself. Get rid of all the native indenting, >> and then create your own indenting. Every IF command increases the indent >> level by THREE spaces, and every subsequent THEN and ELSE command increments >> the indent level by a SPACE beyond the level of the previous IF. > > Or print it out on a fan-fold printer, lay that out in a long > hallway, and trace bars down the left side. Heh, I had to do that once on a many-hundreds-of-lines-long do-while loop. God it was messy. I hated the programmer who did that to me. > We had a guy who did that so much the juniour programmers named the > bar traces after him. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:28:53 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <469583D5.4090204@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/11/07 16:32, Bob Koehler wrote: > >> In article , Fred Bach writes: >> >>> Yes. 'Beautify' the code yourself. Get rid of all the native >>> indenting, >>> and then create your own indenting. Every IF command increases >>> the indent >>> level by THREE spaces, and every subsequent THEN and ELSE command >>> increments >>> the indent level by a SPACE beyond the level of the previous IF. >> >> >> Or print it out on a fan-fold printer, lay that out in a long >> hallway, and trace bars down the left side. > > > Heh, I had to do that once on a many-hundreds-of-lines-long do-while > loop. God it was messy. I hated the programmer who did that to me. > >> We had a guy who did that so much the juniour programmers named the >> bar traces after him. > > Well, if you need to do such indenting, I think it's possible to create a DCL script that will parse the subject DCL and do the required indenting. It might be easier to do it in awk. If I had to deal with this today, my first resource would be Charlie Hammond's DCL checker. If Charlie didn't nail it to the wall for me, then I'd try a custom script in DCL or awk. If I'd ever learned Perl, that might be the best tool for the job. Fortunately, the problem is years behind me and I'm retired now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:43:27 -0700 From: UserName2 Subject: awesome job board Message-ID: <1184179407.746960.92840@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> I've just found a great new job board. www.JobBeam.com is free for both employers and jobseekers. Everyone can post videos with their resumes or job posts, AND you can get emails and SMS's about jobs in your area. Employers can search the jobseeker database for free, and you can have searches presented to you on a map so you know what's actually close to you. Check it out! www.jobbeam.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:31:01 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk writes: >Agreed. For this, I'd use a search list for reads but probably use >the physical disk device for the writes to be able to balance out the >traffic manually. >We tend to switch directory files round overnight so that lots of >little log files and temp. files get spread round the directories. >There's no reason why that couldn't be done with disk volumes - use a >system-wide logical name for the device and then switch that round >each night: >$ define/system disk$data dka100: >$ define/system searchlist dka100:[000000...],dka200: >[000000...],dka300:[000000...] >Then use logic to switch it round the following night so that disk >$data is dka200: and the search list is bounced round one space. No need for that. The way search lists work on VMS is file creates always go to the first entry (all others ignored) but attempts to access an existing file search all entries in order. You do have to make sure the entries have identical directory trees, since if, for example, a directory exists on entries 1 and 3 but not 2, and you search for a file that exists in the directory on entry 3, a search for it will abort with a %RMS-E-DNF when accessing the second entry and will not find (or look for) the file in the third entry. You can do something like this: Initially, $ DEFINE SEARCHLIST DISK1,DISK2,DISK3 (DISK1 getting full) $ DEFINE SEARCHLIST DISK1,DISK2 !Remove disk3 $! Delete all nondirectory files from disk 3, initialize it and rebuild $! directory tree, whatever, result is disk3 empty except directory tree $ DEFINE SEARCHLIST DISK3,DISK1,DISK2 ! empty disk first, it'll get new files $! Later remove disk2... $ DEFINE SEARCHLIST DISK3,DISK1 $! empty it and... $ DEFINE SEARCHLIST DISK2,DISK3,DISK1 $! Lather, rinse, repeat ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:23:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: In article <1184104465.657284.52390@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Pierre writes: > hi, > > I have a DECnet node which act as a file server. it has some disk. > when there is no more room on the actual disks, I add one more. > > I can easilly retieve a file from that server, whichever disk/ > directory the file is on using a search list.but to upload a file onto > it I can not use that trick as the first entry of the search list will > always be used (I do not always write to the last disk/directory but > modify/delete existing files, upload new ones on any of the disks) > How about a background job that periodically migrates data from the first location to later locations? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:26:31 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: In article <1184111128.327595.17380@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Pierre writes: > > anyway, I never used volume sets. what happens if one of the disks > craches ? do I lost all the data on the whole volume set or only on > the faulty disk ? If properly backed up you lose data only on the drive that crashed. The only caveat is that you must always have volume 1 physically mounted while restoring any volume. Generally we would always have all the good volumes up anyhow. But we had very few disk crashes on the system with bound volume sets. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:27:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: In article <4694394A.7060709@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > If a member of a bound volume set crashes, you lose your data. A bound > volume set behaves like a single big disk and a file may have pieces on > any or all members of the set. That is simply not true. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:30:21 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: In article <4694D328.3010802@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > For my purposes and, I believe, most other people's purposes, losing a > piece of a file due to a disk crash is nearly as bad as losing the whole > file. It means a restore from backup and, most likely, losing any > updates made since the last backup. My experiences with bound volume sets shows that the whole file will go on a single spindle if there's a spindle in the set where it fits. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:17:16 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DECnet copy question Message-ID: <4695811C.2050107@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <4694394A.7060709@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>If a member of a bound volume set crashes, you lose your data. A bound >>volume set behaves like a single big disk and a file may have pieces on >>any or all members of the set. > > > That is simply not true. > What have you been smoking? I want some! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 19:55:43 GMT From: Roger Ivie Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: On 2007-07-11, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , glen herrmannsfeldt writes: > But UNIX was already around. Maybe Larry knows whether TECO is older > or UNIX (1968)? As I understand it, TECO was originally written for the PDP-1. I read it on the internet, it must be true. -- roger ivie rivie@ridgenet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:02:57 -0600 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: <1184191459_427@sp12lax.superfeed.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <000101c7c379$c8a03470$59e09d50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: >> I thought TECO was a line oriented editor used for batch processing, like >> SED? I'll look at it and build it just for fun if I can find it. Probably >> won't handle 3270 screens, but how about z/Linux running under z/VM? Have to >> get one of you guys to login and test it out though! :) >> > > No. TECO is more like a character oriented editor than a line > oriented editor. It is capable of running just fine on hard copy > terminals, but it wouldn't be my first choice for batch. > > There was also a set of TECO macros called TV that we used on our > PDP-10 that made TECO a full-screen editor on VT52. Never did learn > that very will. Survived with TOPS-20 EDIT (an SOS clone) until DEC > put EDT on TOPS-20. > > Ah, they days. EDT on VMS, EDT on RSX-11M, and EDT on TOPS-20. > RT-11! ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:07:16 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: <1184191636.566206.138510@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 5:02 pm, Jeff Campbell wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: > > In article <000101c7c379$c8a03470$59e09d50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes: > >> I thought TECO was a line oriented editor used for batch processing, like > >> SED? I'll look at it and build it just for fun if I can find it. Probably > >> won't handle 3270 screens, but how about z/Linux running under z/VM? Have to > >> get one of you guys to login and test it out though! :) > > > No. TECO is more like a character oriented editor than a line > > oriented editor. It is capable of running just fine on hard copy > > terminals, but it wouldn't be my first choice for batch. > > > There was also a set of TECO macros called TV that we used on our > > PDP-10 that made TECO a full-screen editor on VT52. Never did learn > > that very will. Survived with TOPS-20 EDIT (an SOS clone) until DEC > > put EDT on TOPS-20. > > > Ah, they days. EDT on VMS, EDT on RSX-11M, and EDT on TOPS-20. > > RT-11! > KED ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:00:07 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <008c01c7c428$5f94ed40$1ebec7c0$@com> (!) Control-B is a newfound JOY! Thanks Ken. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Fairfield [mailto:Ken@Napili.Fairfield.Home] > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Delete Key? > > P. Sture wrote: > > In article <001b01c7c35e$73ca04f0$5b5e0ed0$@com>, > > "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > Please note that I have rejigged your message to avoid "top posting". > > Interleaving answers with the original post makes for better > > comprehension, particularly for those reading with non-GUI news > readers. > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Ken Fairfield wrote: > >>> Remember, EVE means "Easy/Extensible/Efficient VMS Editor". ;-) > >> Ah- I did not know that was what it stood for at all. Interesting. > :) > >> > >> Has anyone perhaps adapted it for primay use on a laptop keyboard? > > > > On OS X, I use the iTerm terminal emulator. This successfully mimics > the > > numeric keypad on a Mac laptop in conjunction with the Numlock key. > It's > > a pain, but it does work. > > > > What I also do is have an eve command file, to make life easier when > you > > can't get at certain function keys. At the minimum I tend to have: > > > > DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-D DO > > DEFINE KEY=CONTROL-F FIND > [...] > > Since I have often been in the position of working on a > "foreign" system, or on another user's PC, where I don't > have my TPU section and/or I don't have an LK4xx keyboard, > I found the most valuable key to know is Ctrl/B. I use > Ctrl/B as a "dirty DO". :-) > > For Paul, Ctrl/B is mapped to EVE's RECALL command. It gets > you the last/previous command line (initially, a GET FILE > from starting the editor) which can then be edited at will. > Use Ctrl/X to erase the old command line (without having to > delete the old command character by character, etc.) and > type in whatever new command you want, e.g., FIND or EXIT. > > -Ken > -- > Ken & Ann Fairfield > What: Ken dot And dot Ann > Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:18:38 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: <7dd80f60707112018q5120570fj9ffd93be1ebab030@mail.gmail.com> On 7/11/07, Paul Raulerson wrote: > (!) Control-B is a newfound JOY! Thanks Ken. > -Paul When using a PC keyboard and EVE, I use the SHIFT-F6 key combination which brings up the "Command:" prompt. From there you can type any valid EVE or TPU command. To repeat the last command, just hold down the shift key and press F6 twice. I rarely use the keypad commands anymore, since I do most of my work via the PC on terminal emulators. Even when I'm using a real VT type terminal, I use the "DO" key more than the keypad commands. Ken Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 22:37:32 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Delete Key? Message-ID: <000301c7c435$faeee720$f0ccb560$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Robinson [mailto:kenrbnsn@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:19 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Delete Key? > > On 7/11/07, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > (!) Control-B is a newfound JOY! Thanks Ken. > > -Paul > > When using a PC keyboard and EVE, I use the SHIFT-F6 key combination > which brings up the "Command:" prompt. From there you can type any > valid EVE or TPU command. To repeat the last command, just hold down > the shift key and press F6 twice. I rarely use the keypad commands > anymore, since I do most of my work via the PC on terminal emulators. > Even when I'm using a real VT type terminal, I use the "DO" key more > than the keypad commands. > > Ken Robinson I very much expect I will emulate your practices here. I must admit, I put the DO key on F3 here, as that is the key that gets you out of just about everything in ISPF and XEDIT. My doggon fingers key going there... But that control-B is so excellent for when one has screwed up the terminal. :) -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:03:06 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Delete Key? Message-ID: Ken Robinson wrote: > When using a PC keyboard and EVE, I use the SHIFT-F6 key combination > which brings up the "Command:" prompt. does the same trick. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:59:02 GMT From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: Disaster Proof is on YouTube Message-ID: "Sue" wrote in message news:1184122342.448486.284370@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > Dear Newsgroup, > > Please feel free to share with anyone and everyone. It would be nice > to see the YouTube version get as many hits as the HP ETV copy. > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=qMCHpUtJnEI > > There are over 4,600 views, 8 comments and most of them about VMS. > > > Warm Regards, > Sue > Thank you. I don't know whether it's approved or not, but there are various websites that will let you save a local copy of a Youtube (or similar) video; they work by faffing about with the page's html, parsing it to generate a link which you can click to download the Flash video file rather than watch it live. For example, you might want to do this before going to show the video on a secure site with no live Internerd. Anyway, one such web site is www.keepvid.com. It works with Firefox and IE on PC, haven't tried Lynx on VMS :) The six minute video is a 15MB download. The download link it gave me a few moments ago was http://chi-v195.chi.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=qMCHpUtJnEI - try it if you wish, it may work for other folks and I will hopefully have saved you a few clicks. On Windows, Media Player Classic is what I use for playing this kind of thing. Other OSes and other media players are available. If anything above is against anyone's terms of service, please accept my apologies. Now who's going to get it on a few covermount CDs or even DVDs? At 15MB it would also fit comfortably on a business card CD-R (they can apparently hold around 50MB), which I gather are a around a couple of dollars each in small quantities. If ordered in the thousands you can get traditional "pressed" CDs (in business card size) which apparently brings the price down to substantially less than a dollar each. If HP HQ don't want to do this themselves, suitably motivated resellers might want to, it won't exactly break their bank. hth John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:04:41 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Message-ID: <139a6tqdbj4ip79@corp.supernews.com> One simple question: Why is F$FILE("ABC.DAT","CDT") giving out the error while DIR/DATE ABC.DAT is not ? When the file is opened for writing, that is. Merci ! -- Syltrem http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en français) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:27:07 -0700 From: Jim Subject: Re: F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Message-ID: <1184182027.713802.252130@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 2:04 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > One simple question: > > Why is F$FILE("ABC.DAT","CDT") giving out the error while DIR/DATE ABC.DAT > is not ? > When the file is opened for writing, that is. > > Merci ! Check out this old thread... http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_frm/thread/644f17d121cc3b69/ba33a13c9761603d? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:27:16 -0700 From: kenneth.randell@verizon.net Subject: Re: F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Message-ID: <1184182036.544283.209900@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 2:04 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > One simple question: > > Why is F$FILE("ABC.DAT","CDT") giving out the error while DIR/DATE ABC.DAT > is not ? > When the file is opened for writing, that is. > > Merci ! > > -- > Syltremhttp://pages.infinit.net/syltrem(OpenVMS information and help, en = fran=E7ais) Don't know why, but f$file("abc.dat","eof") does the same thing. For my purposes, I try to open the file from DCL with /read/share to tell if file is closed before I process it. Likely DIRECTORY is simply opening the indexf.sys file, while f$file_attributes() is trying to open the file in all cases. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:47:02 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: F$FILE() and %SYSTEM-W-ACCONFLICT, file access conflict Message-ID: <1184204822.455337.94750@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 3:27 pm, kenneth.rand...@verizon.net wrote: > On Jul 11, 2:04 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > > > One simple question: > > > Why is F$FILE("ABC.DAT","CDT") giving out the error while DIR/DATE ABC.= DAT > > is not ? > > When the file is opened for writing, that is. > > > Merci ! > > > -- > > Syltremhttp://pages.infinit.net/syltrem(OpenVMSinformation and help, en= fran=E7ais) > > Don't know why, but f$file("abc.dat","eof") does the same thing. For > my purposes, I try to open the file from DCL with /read/share to tell > if file is closed before I process it. Likely DIRECTORY is simply > opening the indexf.sys file, while f$file_attributes() is trying to > open the file in all cases. Try SEARCH/SINC=3Dblah on it! AEF ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 20:39:05 -0500 From: kuhrt.nospammy@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) Subject: Re: Has Linux Peaked ? Message-ID: <15g8ZhXYHrVK@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <46360892.4090307@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Doc wrote: >> Martin Krischik wrote in >> news:4635e67a$1@news.post.ch: >> >> >>>Doc schrieb: >>> >>>>Martin Krischik wrote in >>> >>>>Every once in a while I download and burn a Linux distro to see if >>>>there's one I can use, but from my perspective as a VMS person I >>>>curse the shells provided and the organisation of the documentation. >>>>Much like you seem to be condemning VMS because it is unfamiliar. >>> >>>help is indeed superior to man or even info. And I not condemning VMS >>>- I like VMS - I just point out where improvement is desperately >>>needed. >> [snip] >> >> Doc. > > PLEASE!!! > > If Microsoft had bought Digital, you'd have to run Windows on your Alpha! > > Some days it seems as if HP is the worst possible owner of VMS but, if > you really think about it, Microsoft would be worse! > I ran Windows on a 4100 and a pre-release version of 2000 Pro was left in the drive of a 500a I got from a reseller in Washington. For some reason I dumped the Winders and ran VMS. ;^) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 18:29:08 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fklrkF3b03p9U2@mid.individual.net> In article <469518B2.5040403@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <4693F146.1040306@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>AEF wrote: >>> >>>>On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Main, Kerry wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story about the >>>>>>last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge >>>>>>compliment to OpenVMS !! >>>>> >>>>>When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 >>>>>system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? >>>>>Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? >>>> >>>> >>>>You might as well ask the last time I heard anything about any of >>>>these! I can't remember that far back!!! :-) >>>> >>>>AEF >>>> >>> >>>Most, if not all, of the machines mentioned are of interest only to >>>collectors these days. Mostly trash collectors but there are a few >>>people who love them! >>> >> >> >> Univac (Unisys) would probably argue that point with you. I understand >> they have recently announced a virtualization project much like what >> IBM does targeting the EXEC users. I also understand they have done >> almost as good a job of continuing to support legacy software on their >> newre offerings, again much like IBM does with the 360 architecture. > > Univac/Unisys is a player seldom heard of. I have never encountered > their hardware nor spoken with anyone who mentioned experience with it. > Remember "IBM and the Seven Dwarves"? Univac was one of the seven AIRC. I worked for awhile on a Univac 1100 under EXEC8. I liked it. It was an interesting environment although rather primitive even in its own day. The Pr1mes I worked on at the same time were much more sophisticated and offered greater performance. But then, so did my first personal Unix system around the same period of time. :-) And it fit on my desktop and still left me room to work. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:39:00 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , Rob Brown writes: >> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Bob Koehler wrote: >> >> I can see how this would prevent me running a password grabber on a >> terminal I didn't own. But at the risk of exposing my own account, >> I could still run it against the terminal I am logged in at. > > There is no risk of exposure to your account if you write the > software properly. Just a SMOP. > There is some risk of you being discovered through auditing. True. >> I don't see any protection against that if the potential victim >> does not avoid the trap. > > That is what SET TERMINAL/PERMANENT/SECURE_SERVER is about. That merely give the potential victim a means to avoid the trap, but does not enforce it. Definitely not foolproof, but I can't think of anything that would improve it. BillG mentioned using HITMAN or the equivalent, which will help, but still leaves a window of opportunity. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:46:32 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <4694c31a@mvb.saic.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <8nUH01ZJYghx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >>> >> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that >> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was >> done at VMS 3.0. >> >> Or are my old grey cells misfiring? > > I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal > how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is > a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely > reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, > logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal > use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? Pressing the Break key would terminate any process running and initiate the login dialog. If the user pressed the Break key to begin a login session, the attempt you describe would be thwarted. So you ask, "So what happens if the user sees a login prompt and doesn't press the Break key but just starts typing"? The answer is: the same thing that happens today on Windows desktops, users typically do not press ctrl-alt-del if the login prompt is already on the screen - they just start typing. In both cases it is a matter of user education. When I managed VMS systems with thousands of interactive users, new users were provided with instructions that included the need to start with pressing the Break key and why. When terminal servers were added to the mix, we also taught users how to tell if one was creating a new session or joining an existing one. These instructions tended to be sufficient. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 19:02:42 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fknqiF3b03p9U4@mid.individual.net> In article <4694c31a@mvb.saic.com>, Mark Berryman writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <8nUH01ZJYghx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>>> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>>> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >>>> >>> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that >>> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was >>> done at VMS 3.0. >>> >>> Or are my old grey cells misfiring? >> >> I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal >> how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is >> a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely >> reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, >> logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal >> use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? > > Pressing the Break key would terminate any process running and initiate > the login dialog. If the user pressed the Break key to begin a login > session, the attempt you describe would be thwarted. We know that. But the unsophisticated users of the period did not. > > So you ask, "So what happens if the user sees a login prompt and doesn't > press the Break key but just starts typing"? The answer is: the same > thing that happens today on Windows desktops, users typically do not > press ctrl-alt-del if the login prompt is already on the screen - they > just start typing. True. > > In both cases it is a matter of user education. When I managed VMS > systems with thousands of interactive users, new users were provided > with instructions that included the need to start with pressing the > Break key and why. And how many of them actually read the instructions or understood them? > When terminal servers were added to the mix, we also > taught users how to tell if one was creating a new session or joining an > existing one. These instructions tended to be sufficient. Unless your audience was considerably more sophisticated than the average 1980's college student (or faculty for that matter) they probably shook their heads up and down and then proceeded to not press the break key. The only point of all of this was not who did what and how effective those methods were it was to show that contrary to popular belief int his group VMS was successfully attacked by various methods. Granted, the methods were as unsophisticated as the users, but they, nonetheless, worked. The only question that remains (and will have to remain unanswered for obvious reasons) would VMS really have remained as relatively unsullied as it has if it had not faded into realtive obscurity before the user community (and the associated hacker community) became more sophisticated. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 15:33:02 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <5fkhc1F3cn030U3@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article <8nUH01ZJYghx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <469386D0.6020503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> >>> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >>> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >>> >> >> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that >> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was >> done at VMS 3.0. >> >> Or are my old grey cells misfiring? > > I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal > how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is > a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely > reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, > logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal > use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? There is nothing to prevent such a program from prompting Username: in response to a user typing . But why would a user type . Normal use of the VMS system does not involve starting by typing . Now substitute for tab. If you have a system where an initial does not produce a Username: prompt, and the way you get such a prompt is to hit there is no reason the users would try and accept it if they get the prompt. Ignore the fact that many _other_ VMS systems will respond to the with a Username: prompt. We are talkin about user's experince with _this_ VMS system, and the more naive they are the less likely they are to know about how other VMS systems are configured. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 15:36:41 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , Rob Brown writes: > On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >> In article , Rob Brown writes: >>> I don't see any protection against that if the potential victim >>> does not avoid the trap. >> >> That is what SET TERMINAL/PERMANENT/SECURE_SERVER is about. > > That merely give the potential victim a means to avoid the trap, but > does not enforce it. So long as you don't have /AUTOBAUD, BREAK is the only way for the user to get a Username prompt. The only danger is to those who also use some VMS system elsewhere that is not configured /SECURE_SERVER. Those who are accustomed to _this_ system will automatically type BREAK. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:14:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > > That is not sufficient to protect against someone leaving a program > running on a public terminal that simulates LOGINOUT for the purpose > of capturing a password. True. So maybe addressed rather than fixed. The same can be done on any OS and several have taken similar measures to fix it. Reminds me of one running on a PDP-10 at school. After entering my password the program tried to emulate the main CPU going offline and the prompt from the front end, but got it wrong. This unsophisticated programmer not only couldn't trap ^C, he most likely wrote my stuff into a file in his default directory. ^C, DEL *.*, and logout was sufficient to never actually lose anything belonging to my account (including CPU time at $500/hour). ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:15:53 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article , Rob Brown writes: > On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Bob Koehler wrote: > > I can see how this would prevent me running a password grabber on a > terminal I didn't own. But at the risk of exposing my own account, I > could still run it against the terminal I am logged in at. I don't > see any protection against that if the potential victim does not avoid > the trap. Yep, forgot about that one, but as I just posted ^Y on VMS will likely get you where you needed to be. IIRC my first version of TOPS-20 would no prompt for login until ^C. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:00:52 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184191252.652185.181400@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 12:09 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <4693E1EC.6070...@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > > > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, > >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >>>Bob Koehler wrote: > > >>>>In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >>>>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any > >>>>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. > > >>>> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? > > >>>ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after > >>>V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > > >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but > >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. > > > My users knew because I told them! > > You personally told everyone and explained it to their satisfaction? > And answered any questions they might come up with? How many users? > I have over a thousand a year and that is not counting the need to > re-train all the students from previous semesters. Or the fact that > I do not have personal contact with the majority of them because they > are not even students in my department. > Then, how do they know how to log in at all? Common no-priv'ed public username/password? Same username/password for all systems? (bad idea!) Then, what value would a password-stealer have? And, is the "normal" user given enough priv's to do any real damage? Most users would only use the pinky finger of their left hand or what ever if that's how they were told it had to be done. The few "hackers" who tried to defeat the system would do so regardless, but they would be the ones to try to install a Trojan, and again, so what if all the "normal" people were doing it right? If they have private accounts, then *someone* has to tell them their password and it's *that* someone who needs to tell them how to log in properly. Most Universities and larger organizations (that I've ever been in contact with anyway) have a standard "here's how you log in to the xyz system" handout that has a pre-expired password and users set their own the first time in or they may assign a password that has an expiration and it can't be changed by the user. That's not real hard to do and if no one tells them how to log in and they don't read the handout (back to my original question) how do they know how to log in? Sorry if I don't get it, but what you're saying makes no sense to me. BTW, the break key got me a few "the computer keeps crashing" calls when the console was set to go to >>> on break and/or when the console terminal was turned off (don't remember which machines --- DEC installed the systems and they seemed to like that console setting --- maybe PDP's or early Alpha?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:03:33 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184195013.140819.274130@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 1:04 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1184098978.766888.177...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > > On Jul 10, 3:00 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <1184091535.554932.208...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, > >> AEF writes: > > >> > On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> >> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, > >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >> >> > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> >> >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >> >> >>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any > >> >> >>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. > > >> >> >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? > > >> >> > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after > >> >> > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > > >> >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would today but > >> >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. > > >> > I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log in. > > >> So did I. But what about the 4000 computer illiterate students and > >> several hundred computer illiterate faculty? Remember, this is over > >> 10 years ago. The INTERNET, for all intents and purposes, does not > >> even exist yet and most people arriving at college have never had to > >> use a computer before. There are not PC's in every room of the house!! ;-) > > > Tell them, too! (See below.) > > You really have no experience dealing with a university environment, do you? Hi Bill! Not in the IT dept. I have a Ph.D. in physics. > >> > That's the solution! Don't just set the Break feature: Tell the users > >> > they have to press the Break key. > > >> Tell them when? When do you think you are going to be given the > >> opportunity to hold a class on computer use for everyone? > > > Include it with the Username / Password instructions. > > Which no one will read. Then it's their own fault. ... Too bad. > > them a username and password, no? > > Sure, but you can't make them read the instructions. So then it's the user's fault. What's your point? That you can lead a horse to water ...? OK, you're saying that you can't put something in the operating system that's 100% idiot-proof against password grabbers. So? > > > Tell them then. > > If oyu mean tell them in person, I don't see any of my users til the > first time they have a problem or cause one. :-) Then tell them when all else fails, read the instructions! > > > Besides, unless > > these spoof programs are running continually, most users won't get in > > at all without learning the Break sequence, so they'll be foreced to > > learn it then. > > No, it runs once, it exits after the first time someone types their > userid and password into it. It then returned the terminal to normal > use. If it didn't exit after the first time even an idiot would have > figured out something was wrong. I meant that if things weren't so bad that someone kept running around terminal rooms putting his password grabbers up. > >> > :-) Ya know, most of the time you > >> > log in you're not getting the password grabber so unless you have the > >> > bad luck to do your first login in a password grabber and not know to > >> > press the Break key, you'll be forced to learn to use the Break key in > >> > time. > > >> > Well, like you said about programmers and languages, it's a poor > >> > workman who blames his tools. > > >> I wasn't blaming the tools. The tools are what made it possible. :-) > >> I was only pointing out the fact that contrary to popular belief > >> VMS can have security problems, too. I have had it pointed out > >> to me that user would notice when he logged in that VMS would not > >> inform him of the failed login so he would then know he had been > >> spoofed. I would hope you can see the problem with this, but in > >> case you can't, how would the computer illiterate even know he was > >> supposed to get the message? > > > Yes, there have been security problems with VMS. My impression is that > > they've been few and far between. The same can't be said for Windows. > > Well, I would need to see some statistics comparing number of problems > to number of systems and users. 50 trojan attacks on VMS would be > statistically more sugnificant than 5000 on windows based on the sheer > numbers involved. I know there were more than 50 incidients here in the > first semester I worked here. I'm talking the number and severity of security problems, not the number of actual attacks. Of course more systems gives more attacks. I was taking that into account in my statement. You're trying to pull a fast one here, eh? :-) > > > > > Include the login-failure point with the Username/password > > instructions. OK, many won't get that, but most will be forced to > > learn the Break sequence. Anyway, this is not a problem specific to > > VMS! > > Of course it isn't. But noone else is claiming imunity. Then what is your point? You said there was this grabber-program problem. I said VMS had a defense for it. You said it only worked if the users knew about it. Well, if the users can't be bothered to learn something so simply that's just too bad for them. These users probably are unprivileged anyway, so it's not like the system itself is vulnerable. > >> And trying to teach/train faculty is even harder and less likely. > >> You can offer the class, but you can't make them attend it. Something > >> about herding cats..... > > > OK, but again, this is not a VMS-specific problem. > > >> > Many users of Windows recently didn't know not to open attachments > >> > without being certain it was from a trusted source. And I recall that > >> > many didn't know about spoofing and phishing and the like. > > >> And the largest majority still do not. I have people here, CS faculty, > >> who are constantly sending out messages with things like: "visit this > >> funny webpage." I know I just delete them, but how many of the other > >> faculty do you think just blindly go there. And these are supposed to > >> be the ones who know how things like computers and the INTERNET actually > >> work!! > > > Not a VMS-specific problem. > > No, but it shows how hard it is to teach people about the common > platform. Now thing about trying to teach the same people about > an obscure platform. People today are much more computer literate > and savvy and yet they still fall for the simplest of schemes. > Expecting that better luck would have been possible when they were > much less savvy is just plain silly. People would probably pay more attention when learning the obscure platform, no? > >> > So how did other OSes handle the password-grabber problem and when? > > >> No idea. But I can tell you that I, personally, know how to do the > >> same thing for Unix, Primos and CTS under Exec8. :-) Not that I > >> would ever do something like that, :-) > > >> > My Break adventures at the remote lab date back to 1987 so the Break > >> > feature was certainly available by then. > > >> All it required was knowledge. Something the majority of computer > >> user in the late 80's lacked. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:11:29 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184195489.370869.129160@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 3:02 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <4694c...@mvb.saic.com>, > Mark Berryman writes: > > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <8nUH01ZJY...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > >> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >>> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>>> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after > >>>> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > > >>> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that > >>> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was > >>> done at VMS 3.0. > > >>> Or are my old grey cells misfiring? > > >> I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal > >> how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is > >> a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely > >> reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, > >> logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal > >> use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? > > > Pressing the Break key would terminate any process running and initiate > > the login dialog. If the user pressed the Break key to begin a login > > session, the attempt you describe would be thwarted. > > We know that. But the unsophisticated users of the period did not. > > > > > So you ask, "So what happens if the user sees a login prompt and doesn't > > press the Break key but just starts typing"? The answer is: the same > > thing that happens today on Windows desktops, users typically do not > > press ctrl-alt-del if the login prompt is already on the screen - they > > just start typing. > > True. What about the fact that the Username prompt normally times out? While not everyone will catch on, this is an additional clue that the Username prompt that's still sitting there by the time the user gets to it. Yeah, many will miss that, but it's still a clue. > > In both cases it is a matter of user education. When I managed VMS > > systems with thousands of interactive users, new users were provided > > with instructions that included the need to start with pressing the > > Break key and why. > > And how many of them actually read the instructions or understood them? Too bad for those that didn't! > > > When terminal servers were added to the mix, we also > > taught users how to tell if one was creating a new session or joining an > > existing one. These instructions tended to be sufficient. > > Unless your audience was considerably more sophisticated than the average > 1980's college student (or faculty for that matter) they probably shook > their heads up and down and then proceeded to not press the break key. > > The only point of all of this was not who did what and how effective those > methods were it was to show that contrary to popular belief int his group > VMS was successfully attacked by various methods. Granted, the methods > were as unsophisticated as the users, but they, nonetheless, worked. > The only question that remains (and will have to remain unanswered for > obvious reasons) would VMS really have remained as relatively unsullied > as it has if it had not faded into realtive obscurity before the user > community (and the associated hacker community) became more sophisticated. Yeah, but isn't this not terribly far from social engineering? Didn't some ex-DEC employee trick a still-DEC employee into giving him one or more passwords? This is hardly the fault of the OS. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:00:14 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 10, 2007 3:00 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > In article <1184091535.554932.208470@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, > >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> > >> > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, > b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> > >> >>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any > >> >>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. > >> > >> >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? > >> > >> > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long > after > >> > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at > V4.something. > >> > >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would > today but > >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. > > > > I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log > in. > Security =3D People + Process + Technology Leaving a program running to grab passwords is a People / Process issue - n= ot a technology issue. Same issue exists for any OS platform. User passwords can be obtained from = a number of different ways e.g. network sniffing, password grabbers, camera= s etc. Various technologies like break key, Ctrl-Alt-Del, multi-factor and/or biom= etric devices (access cards etc) can be used to mitigate these incidents fr= om happening. This issue is not specific to OpenVMS. One thing I have always liked about OpenVMS is that on logon, it states whe= n you last logged on - both interactively and via batch. At least that is o= ne way which can be used to flag the user that someone else may have access= their account. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:18:38 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184199518.169119.111340@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 12:53 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca] > > Sent: July 10, 2007 12:20 PM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > > Main, Kerry wrote: > > > Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story > > about the > > > last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge > > > compliment to OpenVMS !! > > > When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 > > system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? > > Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? > > How many are running in equivalent high profile application environments > like running Intels (and other *very* large manufacturing) chip > manufacturing or running billions and/or trillions of $'s every day > through their systems? > > Or running some of latest and greatest lottery systems, banking systems, > stock exchanges etc .. > > Hackers and virus writers understand that even if they broke into those > OS/2 systems you are talking about, there is no reward as they are not > running to much important stuff. > > The same can not be said for OpenVMS. Simple fact is that while there > are huge numbers of potentially "juicy" OpenVMS targets, they typically > tend to focus on the easier legacy Windows/ Linux platform targets as > cracking OpenVMS is to hard. Not impossible, but just very, very hard. Excellent points! Thank you. (Yes, the spamsink address is real, and I do check it from time to time.) > > Regards > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:31:32 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5flb33F3cdmnbU6@mid.individual.net> In article <1184195489.370869.129160@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jul 11, 3:02 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <4694c...@mvb.saic.com>, >> Mark Berryman writes: >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> In article <8nUH01ZJY...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, >> >> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >>> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after >> >>>> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. >> >> >>> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that >> >>> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was >> >>> done at VMS 3.0. >> >> >>> Or are my old grey cells misfiring? >> >> >> I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal >> >> how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is >> >> a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely >> >> reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, >> >> logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal >> >> use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? >> >> > Pressing the Break key would terminate any process running and initiate >> > the login dialog. If the user pressed the Break key to begin a login >> > session, the attempt you describe would be thwarted. >> >> We know that. But the unsophisticated users of the period did not. > > > >> >> >> >> > So you ask, "So what happens if the user sees a login prompt and doesn't >> > press the Break key but just starts typing"? The answer is: the same >> > thing that happens today on Windows desktops, users typically do not >> > press ctrl-alt-del if the login prompt is already on the screen - they >> > just start typing. >> >> True. > > What about the fact that the Username prompt normally times out? While > not everyone will catch on, this is an additional clue that the > Username prompt that's still sitting there by the time the user gets > to it. Yeah, many will miss that, but it's still a clue. And how many Business Majors are going to know that? Remember, this is a time when VMS still held sway in academia. It is not all CS students (or faculty) it's everyone. This is the machine they get their email on and the only way to read it is logon and run MAIL. These are not geeks or even nerds. These are ver non-computer literate, average users. Some seeing a computer for the first time. > >> > In both cases it is a matter of user education. When I managed VMS >> > systems with thousands of interactive users, new users were provided >> > with instructions that included the need to start with pressing the >> > Break key and why. >> >> And how many of them actually read the instructions or understood them? > > Too bad for those that didn't! Don't know much about human nature, huh? :-) Among all the other crap they have to do for the first time as college students those instructions probably rank pretty low. All they want to do is read their email in case the professor has sent them something they need to know before the next class session. They don't want to become computer geeks, just read their email. > >> >> > When terminal servers were added to the mix, we also >> > taught users how to tell if one was creating a new session or joining an >> > existing one. These instructions tended to be sufficient. >> >> Unless your audience was considerably more sophisticated than the average >> 1980's college student (or faculty for that matter) they probably shook >> their heads up and down and then proceeded to not press the break key. >> >> The only point of all of this was not who did what and how effective those >> methods were it was to show that contrary to popular belief int his group >> VMS was successfully attacked by various methods. Granted, the methods >> were as unsophisticated as the users, but they, nonetheless, worked. >> The only question that remains (and will have to remain unanswered for >> obvious reasons) would VMS really have remained as relatively unsullied >> as it has if it had not faded into realtive obscurity before the user >> community (and the associated hacker community) became more sophisticated. > > Yeah, but isn't this not terribly far from social engineering? Didn't > some ex-DEC employee trick a still-DEC employee into giving him one or > more passwords? > > This is hardly the fault of the OS. So then why is it MS fault that all the users don't know not to run everything from an administrator account? And, again even that isn't the point. The point is no one has ever claimed that any other OS is and always has been immune from this. Only VMS fanatics. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:43:06 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5flboqF3cdmnbU7@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: July 10, 2007 3:00 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> >> In article <1184091535.554932.208470@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> > On Jul 10, 9:08 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> >> >> > Bob Koehler wrote: >> >> >> In article <5fg3tpF3d7h8...@mid.individual.net>, >> b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >> >> >>>The most common program running on any VMS terminal in any >> >> >>>of those rooms was the trojan-horse password grabber. >> >> >> >> >> Fixed in VMS 3.0. Can Windows say the same? >> >> >> >> > ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long >> after >> >> > V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at >> V4.something. >> >> >> >> Yes, but it relies on the user knowing that. I doubt most would >> today but >> >> they certainly wouldn't have back then. >> > >> > I did. Everyone in my group knew. We were told that's how to log >> in. >> > > Security =3D People + Process + Technology > > Leaving a program running to grab passwords is a People / Process issue - n= > ot a technology issue. > > Same issue exists for any OS platform. User passwords can be obtained from = > a number of different ways e.g. network sniffing, password grabbers, camera= > s etc. > > Various technologies like break key, Ctrl-Alt-Del, multi-factor and/or biom= > etric devices (access cards etc) can be used to mitigate these incidents fr= > om happening. > > This issue is not specific to OpenVMS. Kerry, I never said this was VMS specific. But it is VMS fanatics who are and have been claiming that this has never happened in the history of VMS. That's all. Just showing it isn't true. > > One thing I have always liked about OpenVMS is that on logon, it states whe= > n you last logged on - both interactively and via batch. At least that is o= > ne way which can be used to flag the user that someone else may have access= > their account. And again, looking at the user community in the 80's, when VMS was still the strong in academia, how many of them would know that or eve have paid attention to what flashed by when they logged on? Many people I knew had LOGIN.COM's they got from somebody or other that cleared the screen so they didn't have to sort through all that clutter. Heck, I gave up on MOTD's as a means of diseminating information years ago because no one ever read them anyway. Now all it has is a legal disclaimer to keep the lawyers happy. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 01:12:08 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 11, 2007 8:32 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > [snip...] > > > > This is hardly the fault of the OS. > > So then why is it MS fault that all the users don't know not to run > everything from an administrator account? And, again even that > isn't > the point. The point is no one has ever claimed that any other OS > is and always has been immune from this. Only VMS fanatics. > > bill > See earlier notes about Security =3D People + Process + Technology. Given the first two are equal, a chain (or overall solution) is only as str= ong as its weakest link, so the security technology and architecture of the= platform is where the real differentiator often is. Regards, Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 01:30:35 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] > On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: July 11, 2007 8:43 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > [snip ...] > Kerry, I never said this was VMS specific. But it is VMS fanatics > who are > and have been claiming that this has never happened in the history > of VMS. > That's all. Just showing it isn't true. > I understand what you are saying, but you are raising people, process issue= s which are common to all platforms. Perhaps what everyone needs to acknowledge is that all OS platforms have pe= ople, process challenges wrt to security and focus on the platform specific= technologies and/or architectures that make the overall solution that much= stronger or weaker. After all, like the chain analogy, and overall securit= y solution is only as good as its weakest link. Imho, that is where things like security patches comes into play as these a= re very much technology issues which reduces the overall solution security.= And the volume of these security patches is what differentiates the platfo= rms overall security level. > > > > One thing I have always liked about OpenVMS is that on logon, it > states whe=3D > > n you last logged on - both interactively and via batch. At least > that is o=3D > > ne way which can be used to flag the user that someone else may > have access=3D > > their account. > > And again, looking at the user community in the 80's, when VMS was > still > the strong in academia, how many of them would know that or eve > have > paid attention to what flashed by when they logged on? Many people > I > knew had LOGIN.COM's they got from somebody or other that cleared > the > screen so they didn't have to sort through all that clutter. Heck, > I > gave up on MOTD's as a means of diseminating information years ago > because no one ever read them anyway. Now all it has is a legal > disclaimer > to keep the lawyers happy. :-) > > bill > Yeah, I remember something about "Welcome to ..." not being a good message = for the a logon prompt message .. lawyers really hated that one. :-) Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 01:37:12 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <5fleu8F3bk7i0U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@cs.uofs.edu] >> On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: July 11, 2007 8:32 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> > > [snip...] > >> > >> > This is hardly the fault of the OS. >> >> So then why is it MS fault that all the users don't know not to run >> everything from an administrator account? And, again even that >> isn't >> the point. The point is no one has ever claimed that any other OS >> is and always has been immune from this. Only VMS fanatics. > > See earlier notes about Security =3D People + Process + Technology. > > Given the first two are equal, a chain (or overall solution) is only as str= > ong as its weakest link, so the security technology and architecture of the= > platform is where the real differentiator often is. Kerry, your needle is stuck. You just keep repeating the same mantra over and over and it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. What does Security = People + Process + Technology have to do with the fact that VMS fanatics have been claiming there has never been a trojan attack on a VMS machine when it apparently was quite common at one time? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:46:04 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1184204764.005728.297010@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 8:31 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1184195489.370869.129...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > AEF writes: > > > On Jul 11, 3:02 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <4694c...@mvb.saic.com>, > >> Mark Berryman writes: > > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> >> In article <8nUH01ZJY...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > >> >> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> >>> In article <469386D0.6020...@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> >>>> ISTR the "trojan horse password grabber" being a problem long after > >> >>>> V3.0. I believe that "pressing the break key" was added at V4.something. > > >> >>> The default protection for terminal devices was changed so that > >> >>> non-privileged users could not run trojan horses. IIRC that was > >> >>> done at VMS 3.0. > > >> >>> Or are my old grey cells misfiring? > > >> >> I ask again. When a student gets up and walks away from the terminal > >> >> how does VMS know what the program he left running is doing? It is > >> >> a simple program that prints a copy of the login dialog and merely > >> >> reads the username and password from the terminal. And then exits, > >> >> logging out at the same time so that the terminal returns to normal > >> >> use. Now, how would VMS detect and prevent this? > > >> > Pressing the Break key would terminate any process running and initiate > >> > the login dialog. If the user pressed the Break key to begin a login > >> > session, the attempt you describe would be thwarted. > > >> We know that. But the unsophisticated users of the period did not. > > >> > So you ask, "So what happens if the user sees a login prompt and doesn't > >> > press the Break key but just starts typing"? The answer is: the same > >> > thing that happens today on Windows desktops, users typically do not > >> > press ctrl-alt-del if the login prompt is already on the screen - they > >> > just start typing. > > >> True. > > > What about the fact that the Username prompt normally times out? While > > not everyone will catch on, this is an additional clue that the > > Username prompt that's still sitting there by the time the user gets > > to it. Yeah, many will miss that, but it's still a clue. > > And how many Business Majors are going to know that? Remember, this > is a time when VMS still held sway in academia. It is not all CS > students (or faculty) it's everyone. This is the machine they get > their email on and the only way to read it is logon and run MAIL. > These are not geeks or even nerds. These are ver non-computer > literate, average users. Some seeing a computer for the first time. I said not everyone will catch on. I guess will have to disagree to agree! > >> > In both cases it is a matter of user education. When I managed VMS > >> > systems with thousands of interactive users, new users were provided > >> > with instructions that included the need to start with pressing the > >> > Break key and why. > > >> And how many of them actually read the instructions or understood them? > > > Too bad for those that didn't! > > Don't know much about human nature, huh? :-) Among all the other > crap they have to do for the first time as college students those > instructions probably rank pretty low. All they want to do is > read their email in case the professor has sent them something > they need to know before the next class session. They don't want > to become computer geeks, just read their email. What is the big deal: 1. Press the BREAK key. 2. Wait 2 seconds. 3. Press the Return key to get a Username prompt. 4. Your username is BLAH. Type it in and press Return. This will give you a Password prompt. 5. Your password is BLOW. Type it in and press Return. 6. [Add instructions on being forced to pick a new password if needed.] This is rocket science? If the student couldn't handle this, how in blazes could they get more than 200 on their combined SAT score?! (or whatever the min. SAT score is) Tell me why they are going to skip steps 1 and 2. Most of the time there probably won't be a password grabber running and they'll be forced to learn and do steps 1 and 2. Once they learn that they'll always do that and the grabbers will be out of luck. This way you get much fewer passwords stolen. Therefore, it is a good thing. > >> > When terminal servers were added to the mix, we also > >> > taught users how to tell if one was creating a new session or joining an > >> > existing one. These instructions tended to be sufficient. > > >> Unless your audience was considerably more sophisticated than the average > >> 1980's college student (or faculty for that matter) they probably shook > >> their heads up and down and then proceeded to not press the break key. > > >> The only point of all of this was not who did what and how effective those > >> methods were it was to show that contrary to popular belief int his group > >> VMS was successfully attacked by various methods. Granted, the methods > >> were as unsophisticated as the users, but they, nonetheless, worked. > >> The only question that remains (and will have to remain unanswered for > >> obvious reasons) would VMS really have remained as relatively unsullied > >> as it has if it had not faded into realtive obscurity before the user > >> community (and the associated hacker community) became more sophisticated. > > > Yeah, but isn't this not terribly far from social engineering? Didn't > > some ex-DEC employee trick a still-DEC employee into giving him one or > > more passwords? > > > This is hardly the fault of the OS. > > So then why is it MS fault that all the users don't know not to run > everything from an administrator account? And, again even that isn't I don't know. I never ran anything on my home or desk computer at work from an admin account. I blame MS for screen-wasting, muscle and tendon-wasting design. Sometimes as many as hundreds of clicks are needed when a good design would require one or two. I blame MS for too many crashes due to a shoddy OS. I blame MS for endless security vulnerabilities. I blame it for screwing with standards. I blame it for vaporware shenanigans. ... I blame it for being slow. I have a fairly new PC at work with maybe 3 or 4 gigahertz and a gig of RAM and its STILL TOO F****** SLOW a lot of the time. I especially hate when you shut it down when it's saving your settings. Why does this take minutes? Is it saving graphics files? Settings should be a few hundred bits or bytes. What is taking so Goddamn long? I think it must be "prebooting". That's why it boots so fast! ;-) (At least *SOMETHING* is fast about it.) > the point. The point is no one has ever claimed that any other OS > is and always has been immune from this. Only VMS fanatics. Then what the hell are we arguing about? :-) *I* made no such claims. I only said there was a measure (imperfect) to address this. Are you sure those claims didn't all come from Bob? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:04:14 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <008d01c7c428$f2465520$d6d2ff60$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net] > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:52 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article <4693F146.1040306@comcast.net>, > > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > > >>AEF wrote: > >> > >>>On Jul 10, 12:19 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Main, Kerry wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Well, since you have to go back 20+ years to bring up a story > about the > >>>>>last time you heard where OpenVMS was broken into, that is a huge > >>>>>compliment to OpenVMS !! > >>>> > >>>>When was the last time you heard a story about breaking into a OS2 > >>>>system ? An AMIGA, Commodore PET, Apple II, Data General machine ? > >>>>Perhaps A Univac ? Borroughs ? > >>> > >>> > >>>You might as well ask the last time I heard anything about any of > >>>these! I can't remember that far back!!! :-) > >>> > >>>AEF > >>> > >> > >>Most, if not all, of the machines mentioned are of interest only to > >>collectors these days. Mostly trash collectors but there are a few > >>people who love them! > >> > > > > > > Univac (Unisys) would probably argue that point with you. I > understand > > they have recently announced a virtualization project much like what > > IBM does targeting the EXEC users. I also understand they have done > > almost as good a job of continuing to support legacy software on > their > > newre offerings, again much like IBM does with the 360 architecture. > > Univac/Unisys is a player seldom heard of. I have never encountered > their hardware nor spoken with anyone who mentioned experience with it. > Remember "IBM and the Seven Dwarves"? Univac was one of the seven > AIRC. > > I expect I can help you there. ;) The new Unisys Mainframes run Windows! Honestly, they can. They also run the Burroughs A-Series software, now named ClearPath, and they can handle the Sperry 2200 class software too. It is actually pretty slick. I have a customer who wants to port to it. Unisys is fairly well entrenched in DOD and government sector work, as well as some banking, and a big hunk of European and Far East work. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 22:03:04 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <0opi3z4u58+x@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > One thing I have always liked about OpenVMS is that on logon, it states whe= > n you last logged on - both interactively and via batch. At least that is o= > ne way which can be used to flag the user that someone else may have access= > their account. NIST 800-53 AC-9 Previous Logon Notification but a standard feature decades before NIST 800-53 existed. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 20:51:14 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: JobController no longer using fileid? Message-ID: <469542c2@news.langstoeger.at> In article , ChrisSharman writes: >I seem to remember that the job controller stored files by >device+fileid, so that if you renamed a file, the job entry would appear >to magically change (by back-translation). Not that I know of. >It still appears to find and execute the renamed file, but the job >shows the old (non-existent) filespec. Yup. >When did this change? Or am I imagining things? Don't know for sure, but AFAIK it is so for many decades now... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 18:19:32 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5fkl9jF3b03p9U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <1184115111.488306.300400@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, >> Doug Phillips writes: >>> On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: >>>> JF Mezei wrote: >>>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>>> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" >>>>>> resistance by another name? > [snip] >>>> The problem is that there is no such thing as a coherent 'locals' group >>>> in Iraq. Iraq consists out of several religious and ethnic groups who >>>> have hated each other for centuries. So now in this lawless period they >>>> take the opportunity to kill each other with great enthusiasm. No need >>>> for Al Qaeda really. >>> Exactly. It's a tribal culture. We were so critical of Saddam Hussein, >>> and I know I'll get blasted for saying this, but I think I can better >>> understand why he was so ruthless with "his people." >> >> Even more evidence that contrary to this notion of the great Arab culture >> they have never been and probably never will be civilized. And in line >> with the true Klingon concept, they have no honor. > > Without Islam, the European Renaissance would have never happened. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Assimilation_of_Greek_and_Arabic_knowledge Oh yes, now there is a real authoirity. Wikipaedia. > >>>> Combine this with a very primitive form of Islam, >>>> and bingo you get a lot of idiots who think they will go straight to >>>> paradise when they blow themselves up together with a lot of innocent >>>> bystanders. And in paradise, so they believe, there will be 72 virgins >>>> waiting for them. After such a virgin has been deflowered, she >>>> mysteriously will become a virgin again. So these very religious martyrs >>>> actually hope to arrive in a kind of eternal brothel. >>>> >>> Which makes you wonder what the female suicide bombers expect... never >>> mind. I just thought about it and answered my own question :-\ >> >> They expect nothing. They have been so terrorized by arab men that they >> are merely ordered to do it by a man and they do it without question. >> I am amazed that more women over here (where is NOW when they are really >> needed) aren't in favor of us winning this war in order to stop the >> unbelievable mis-treatment of women in the arab world. (Anyone remember >> the two Barbara Walters Afghanistan interviews?) > > They're too busy ranting against W. > >>>> There is one small >>>> problem, according to some there has been a slight error in translation, >>>> and instead of 72 virgins there will be 72 raisins waiting for them. >>> You must have heard that through the grapevine;-) >>> >>>> Islam once was a very rich culture, with great scientists, beautiful art >>>> and architecture. Today Islam seems to be a primitive shadow of this >>>> once so great culture. To give you an example, it seems more foreign >>>> books are translated in Greek than are translated in the whole of the >>>> Arab speaking world. >>>> >>> The cradle of civilization, it was. >> >> Bull crap. They are and always have been little more than itinerant >> camel herders. All attempts at civilizing them have failed. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia > > The geographical area watered by these two rivers is often > referred to as the "Cradle of Civilization", since it was > here that the first literate societies developed in the late > 4th millennium BC, using a highly sophisticated writing system > in the context of the emergence of the first cities and complex > state bureaucracies. > > Of course, Arabia isn't in Mesopotamia... Yeah, I learned all that in grade school, too. 50 years ago. They used to teach that Mesopotamia was the location of the Garden of Eden as well. Of course, since then there has been much evidence of ancient peoples in other places, so....... > >>>> And what about the Americans in Iraq? Obviously they went to war without >>>> having a clue what to do when the war was over. They expected the >>>> population to cheer the Americans, to setup their own versions of the >>>> republican and democratic party (well, just a republican party would >>>> have been sufficient), and elect a kind of George W as new president. >>>> And so a new great democracy would have been born !! >>>> >>> "W" watched too many John Wayne & Audie Murphy movies, maybe? >> >> If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do >> the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When >> you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his >> "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into >> the air how do you stop the fighting? > > Hearts and minds, Bill. Hearts and minds. You can never win the "Hearts and minds" of the Arab world. The story of the Good Samaritan is cute, but would never have happened in reality. If you save the life of a Moslem today he will still be required to kill you as an infidel tomorrow. And nothing can ever change that fact. > > The big problem is that big armies (especially, AFAICT, the US > military) are not designed for "destroy the enemy without destroying > the populous". That is patently false. I don't have to blow up your house to blow up your house to searchit and remove all weapons. It would take at worst some temporary inconvenience for the military to totally disarm Iraq. They are not allowed to do so. > > Not that I think such a task is possible unless the civilian > population really wants it to happen. I think the majority would welcome our actually stopping the violence. I still see pictures and articles every day of Iraqis who are glad we are there. But I am sure they, too, are tiring of our being there and being ineffective. Again, not the military's fault. The ROE just do not allow for the military to function in anything but a perfunctory role. One thing I wold like to have seen, although I am sure it would be constantly attacked would be widespread INTERNET access as a piece of the "rebuilding" process. Why, you might ask? becasue nothing is going change things faster than the people finding out what life in the rest of the world is like. I am certian the majority of Arabs (especially the women) do not want to live int he 12th century. The only problem is they don't know the rest of the world isn't. Most of iran's discontent comes from University students. One needs ignorance to keep the kind of control these people want. Or does no one else notice that the leaders are all educated (mostly in the West) and they are not the ones strapping on explosives and killing themselves. they leave that to the ignorant who still believe stories about virgins. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:58:29 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184183909.520097.246390@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 1:03 am, Dirk Munk wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: > [snip] > > >> The American soldiers who went there knew they they belonged to the best > >> army in the world, with the best weapons, and they were sent by the > >> greatest democracy in the world, led by God's own representative on > >> earth George W. Bush. They also had the best education in the world, and > >> so I would not be surprised if many of them weren't even able to point > >> out Iraq on the map of the world. To their surprise they noticed that > >> there were no McDonalds, Burger Kings and Wallmarts in Iraq, and > >> baseball was rather unknown as well. Conclusion: this was a primitive > >> people, and they had no reservations showing that to the Iraqi people. > >> For some strange reason the Iraqis did not appreciate this attitude. I'm > >> sure this whole complex is one of the main reasons why the Americans > >> have failed bitterly in Iraq. > > > The US "coalition" made too many mistakes to even mention except to > > write a book, but the soldiers had no expectations of finding a McD, > > BK or WM there. > > This was meant as satire. However Americans in general are not known for > their great knowledge of foreign countries and cultures to put it > mildly, and that is what I was trying to express. Combine this with the > believe that anything originating from the US is automatically the best > and the greatest in the world, and you get a rather dangerous attitude > to other countries and cultures. George W is trying to proof that every > day, and he is succeeding I can assure you. > Yes, I read it as satire. Having a fairly dry sense of humor and a normally weird mind (oxymoronic view of life;-) I did appreciate your post (in spite of my shift to a more serious tone.) > I know too many of them, and/or their families, to be > > > able to agree with your conclusion. > > >>> There can be no "victory" by the americans, and the quicker they admit > >>> defeat, mistake and mea-culpas, the quicker the resistance in Iraq will > >>> allow the americans to retreat in an orderly fashion. (aka: gradual > >>> widthdrwawal, not the "all or nothing" debates in the USA). > (As you also shifted.) > > The "victory" was accomplished when Saddam was overthrown. Now, we're > > suffering because of the stupid decisions made by our "leaders" about > > what to do about the "victory." > [etc, etc, etc] As I've said before, I supported our attack on the Afghani Taliban, but I was against our Iraqi invasion. My position at the time was that since we (through the UN) already had "feet on the ground" and we certainly had "eyes in the sky", we should have increased our support of the UN inspection efforts. If we had real knowledge of WOMD's, then why the f**k didn't we tell the UN inspectors where they were and *help* find them. If we didn't know where they were, then we *didn't* have real knowledge and an invasion was not called for. No connection between Iraq & AQ was ever made at the time, except by innuendo --- Ali-whatever knew BL or his cousin or who ever and he was known to have spoken with Saddam, or at least he was in Iraq sometime and could have, so Saddam must be in cahoots with AQ so we should attack Iraq --- wasn't a very convincing argument to me. Nor were any of the other "justifications." We all know why "W" invaded Iraq and we don't need to beat that dead horse any more. The Governments of France, Germany & Russia stood up for sanity but were criticized for having "vested interests" and close dealings with Iraq. 'Okay,' I thought at the time, 'so if they know more about Iraq than we do, why aren't we listening to them?' BTW, when the vocal-jority was spinning everything over from French to Freedom, I bought some real nice French wine for dirt cheap. Anti- American? No, I'm every inch an American and proud of it. I'm an "old- school" Republican (leaning more towards the middle to left in that group now that I've reached an "advanced" age) who didn't vote for "W" either time and being proven right calling him a "shoot-from-the-hip cowboy" when he ran the first time doesn't bring me any comfort at all. Being proven right (in a long-ago post here in c.o.v where a certain person-who-shall-remain-unnamed replied that I was a moron) that the Iraqi situation was going to degrade into a civil war between the different factions doesn't give me comfort, either (but I do remember it ;-) Now, there is no easy answer to the problem. The Iraqi Initiative report presented the options clearly, but time is not working on our side. Anyway, before I write another novella here, I'd like to say that I feel sorry for the younger generation that will have to deal with this mess and ashamed of my generation for having made it. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:34:25 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <5fk1ihF3cqn27U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Even more evidence that contrary to this notion of the great Arab culture > they have never been and probably never will be civilized. And in line > with the true Klingon concept, they have no honor. > People who write that kind of bigoted crap ought to be drafted. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 22:37:04 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5fl4cgF3cphmsU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5fk1ihF3cqn27U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Even more evidence that contrary to this notion of the great Arab culture >> they have never been and probably never will be civilized. And in line >> with the true Klingon concept, they have no honor. >> > > People who write that kind of bigoted crap ought to be drafted. Sorry, a little late for that. I have been in the Army since 1968 and I was never drafted. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:43:20 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184193800.548881.264190@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 11:50 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > > In article <1184115111.488306.300...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > > Doug Phillips writes: > >> On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: > >>> JF Mezei wrote: > >>>> Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>>> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" > >>>>> resistance by another name? > [snip] [...] > > If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do > > the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When > > you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his > > "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into > > the air how do you stop the fighting? > > Hearts and minds, Bill. Hearts and minds. > > The big problem is that big armies (especially, AFAICT, the US > military) are not designed for "destroy the enemy without destroying > the populous". > > Not that I think such a task is possible unless the civilian > population really wants it to happen. Let's take a look at two success stories: Germany and Japan. We beat them in a war. We bombed Germany. We dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan. Germany was run by Nazis and now it's a democracy with a large economy. Japan was under an emperor and is now a democracy with a large economy. Both were guilty of unspeakable cruelties and mass murder. And now we're all chums, relatively speaking. So much for the "hearts and minds" method -- which doesn't seem to be working so well in Iraq. AEF > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:14:08 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184195648.343991.316300@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 6:03 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/11/07 14:58, Doug Phillips wrote: > [snip] > > > > > The Governments of France, Germany & Russia stood up for sanity but > > were criticized for having "vested interests" and close dealings with > > Iraq. 'Okay,' I thought at the time, 'so if they know more about Iraq > > than we do, why aren't we listening to them?' > > "vested interests" doesn't mean "they know more about Iraq than we do". > > It means "they have selfish reasons for wanting to keep Saddam in > power". > It says that they have (or, had) close association with the subject. Unless you think they held those vested interests blindly (in which case, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying;-). "Bridge, you say? Well, listen mister, I've been cheated before and I won't be cheated again. What kind of warranty comes with that bridge?" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:18:44 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/11/07 17:37, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <5fk1ihF3cqn27U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> Even more evidence that contrary to this notion of the great Arab culture >>> they have never been and probably never will be civilized. And in line >>> with the true Klingon concept, they have no honor. >>> >> People who write that kind of bigoted crap ought to be drafted. > > Sorry, a little late for that. I have been in the Army since 1968 and I > was never drafted. 39 years??? Why haven't they retired you yet? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:33:50 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184196830.456916.24640@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 1:19 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: > > > > > On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > >> If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do > >> the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When > >> you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his > >> "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into > >> the air how do you stop the fighting? > > > Hearts and minds, Bill. Hearts and minds. > > You can never win the "Hearts and minds" of the Arab world. The story > of the Good Samaritan is cute, but would never have happened in reality. > If you save the life of a Moslem today he will still be required to > kill you as an infidel tomorrow. And nothing can ever change that fact. > Well, lack of altruism seems to be brought about by nurture, not nature. ... "Without any prospect of immediate benefit, chimps helped both people and other chimps that they didn't know, and the 18-month-olds spontaneously assisted adults they'd never seen before" ... "The roots of human altruism reach back roughly 6 million years to a common ancestor of people and chimps, the researchers propose in the July PLoS Biology." ... I thought it was interesting that in one of the experiments all but one chimp exhibited altruism --- a relative of yours maybe? (I hope you know I'm just kidding;-))) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:48:35 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184197715.616557.194070@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 6:27 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/11/07 18:14, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Jul 11, 6:03 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/11/07 14:58, Doug Phillips wrote: > >> [snip] > > >>> The Governments of France, Germany & Russia stood up for sanity but > >>> were criticized for having "vested interests" and close dealings with > >>> Iraq. 'Okay,' I thought at the time, 'so if they know more about Iraq > >>> than we do, why aren't we listening to them?' > >> "vested interests" doesn't mean "they know more about Iraq than we do". > > >> It means "they have selfish reasons for wanting to keep Saddam in > >> power". > > > It says that they have (or, had) close association with the subject. > > Unless you think they held those vested interests blindly (in which > > case, I have a bridge you might be interested in buying;-). > > Blindly??? Of course not. > > But it sure as hell wasn't charity or the milk of human kindness. > > It was *MONEY*, man, *money*. You've got to be old enough to > remember "follow the money". > Really? Was it money? Of course it was money. So *what* of the motivation. You still think France, Germany and Russia were *wrong* in taking the stance they did? You think they didn't have a bit more "insider" knowledge of what was going on in Iraq than the US? Get real. They supported the UN inspection efforts 100% and we didn't. If there had been WMD's, they wanted them eliminated --- okay, to protect their selfish interests, then? We were wrong then, and if you can't see that they were right, then I don't know what else to say. Just how old do you have to be to remember "follow the money" anyway? Is that something Jack Benny said? I don't know. I'm so old that in order for me to remember anything new I have to forget something. ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:00:55 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5fl99mF3cdmnbU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/11/07 13:19, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >>> On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article <1184115111.488306.300400@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, >>>> Doug Phillips writes: >>>>> On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote: >>>>>> JF Mezei wrote: >>>>>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>>>>>> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just" >>>>>>>> resistance by another name? >>> [snip] >>>>>> The problem is that there is no such thing as a coherent 'locals' group >>>>>> in Iraq. Iraq consists out of several religious and ethnic groups who >>>>>> have hated each other for centuries. So now in this lawless period they >>>>>> take the opportunity to kill each other with great enthusiasm. No need >>>>>> for Al Qaeda really. >>>>> Exactly. It's a tribal culture. We were so critical of Saddam Hussein, >>>>> and I know I'll get blasted for saying this, but I think I can better >>>>> understand why he was so ruthless with "his people." >>>> Even more evidence that contrary to this notion of the great Arab culture >>>> they have never been and probably never will be civilized. And in line >>>> with the true Klingon concept, they have no honor. >>> Without Islam, the European Renaissance would have never happened. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance#Assimilation_of_Greek_and_Arabic_knowledge >> >> Oh yes, now there is a real authoirity. Wikipaedia. > > Oh yes, /Appeal to Ridicule/. Way to score points there, bud. > > (See, we can all play that game!) I take it you haven't been following things like the press or maybe the latest issue of The RISKS Digest? I would suggest that for a start. And then you might look at the fact that most reputable schools will no longer accept Wikipaedia as source in any serious paper. > >>>>>> Combine this with a very primitive form of Islam, >>>>>> and bingo you get a lot of idiots who think they will go straight to >>>>>> paradise when they blow themselves up together with a lot of innocent >>>>>> bystanders. And in paradise, so they believe, there will be 72 virgins >>>>>> waiting for them. After such a virgin has been deflowered, she >>>>>> mysteriously will become a virgin again. So these very religious martyrs >>>>>> actually hope to arrive in a kind of eternal brothel. >>>>>> >>>>> Which makes you wonder what the female suicide bombers expect... never >>>>> mind. I just thought about it and answered my own question :-\ >>>> They expect nothing. They have been so terrorized by arab men that they >>>> are merely ordered to do it by a man and they do it without question. >>>> I am amazed that more women over here (where is NOW when they are really >>>> needed) aren't in favor of us winning this war in order to stop the >>>> unbelievable mis-treatment of women in the arab world. (Anyone remember >>>> the two Barbara Walters Afghanistan interviews?) >>> They're too busy ranting against W. >>> >>>>>> There is one small >>>>>> problem, according to some there has been a slight error in translation, >>>>>> and instead of 72 virgins there will be 72 raisins waiting for them. >>>>> You must have heard that through the grapevine;-) >>>>> >>>>>> Islam once was a very rich culture, with great scientists, beautiful art >>>>>> and architecture. Today Islam seems to be a primitive shadow of this >>>>>> once so great culture. To give you an example, it seems more foreign >>>>>> books are translated in Greek than are translated in the whole of the >>>>>> Arab speaking world. >>>>>> >>>>> The cradle of civilization, it was. >>>> Bull crap. They are and always have been little more than itinerant >>>> camel herders. All attempts at civilizing them have failed. >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia >>> >>> The geographical area watered by these two rivers is often >>> referred to as the "Cradle of Civilization", since it was >>> here that the first literate societies developed in the late >>> 4th millennium BC, using a highly sophisticated writing system >>> in the context of the emergence of the first cities and complex >>> state bureaucracies. >>> >>> Of course, Arabia isn't in Mesopotamia... >> >> Yeah, I learned all that in grade school, too. 50 years ago. They >> used to teach that Mesopotamia was the location of the Garden of Eden >> as well. Of course, since then there has been much evidence of ancient >> peoples in other places, so....... > > Another Appeal to Ridicule. How is that ridicule? I was most certainly taught in grade school that Mesopotamia was the location of th4e original Garden of Eden. Oh wait, that was before anyone who even spoke about the possibility of there being a God was discredited. Talk about "Appeal to Ridicule". And, there have been recent "scientific" claims that man actually originated in north-central Africa or at least that there is evidence of man there that predates the Mesopotamian antiquities. > > Batting 1000 and looking pretty lame. > >>>>>> And what about the Americans in Iraq? Obviously they went to war without >>>>>> having a clue what to do when the war was over. They expected the >>>>>> population to cheer the Americans, to setup their own versions of the >>>>>> republican and democratic party (well, just a republican party would >>>>>> have been sufficient), and elect a kind of George W as new president. >>>>>> And so a new great democracy would have been born !! >>>>>> >>>>> "W" watched too many John Wayne & Audie Murphy movies, maybe? >>>> If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do >>>> the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When >>>> you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his >>>> "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into >>>> the air how do you stop the fighting? >>> Hearts and minds, Bill. Hearts and minds. >> >> You can never win the "Hearts and minds" of the Arab world. The story >> of the Good Samaritan is cute, but would never have happened in reality. >> If you save the life of a Moslem today he will still be required to >> kill you as an infidel tomorrow. And nothing can ever change that fact. > > That was kinda my point. Sorry, I thought you were trying to pointout that we should be trying to win their hearts and minds rather than trying to end the violence. > >>> The big problem is that big armies (especially, AFAICT, the US >>> military) are not designed for "destroy the enemy without destroying >>> the populous". >> >> That is patently false. I don't have to blow up your house to blow >> up your house to searchit and remove all weapons. It would take at >> worst some temporary inconvenience for the military to totally disarm >> Iraq. They are not allowed to do so. > > Three words: secret weapons caches. Sure, they are there. But you have to start somewhere and I would think the place to start is with all the weapons you can plainly see. Of course, in searching everywhere you are likely to find a lot of those secret caches, too. It certainly makes no sense to leave weapons in the hands of the enemy while the conflict is still ongoing, does it? > >>> Not that I think such a task is possible unless the civilian >>> population really wants it to happen. >> >> I think the majority would welcome our actually stopping the violence. >> I still see pictures and articles every day of Iraqis who are glad we >> are there. But I am sure they, too, are tiring of our being there and >> being ineffective. Again, not the military's fault. The ROE just do >> not allow for the military to function in anything but a perfunctory >> role. >> >> One thing I wold like to have seen, although I am sure it would be >> constantly attacked would be widespread INTERNET access as a piece >> of the "rebuilding" process. Why, you might ask? becasue nothing >> is going change things faster than the people finding out what life >> in the rest of the world is like. I am certian the majority of Arabs >> (especially the women) do not want to live int he 12th century. The >> only problem is they don't know the rest of the world isn't. Most >> of iran's discontent comes from University students. One needs >> ignorance to keep the kind of control these people want. Or does >> no one else notice that the leaders are all educated (mostly in the >> West) and they are not the ones strapping on explosives and killing >> themselves. they leave that to the ignorant who still believe stories >> about virgins. >> "Clearly, most foreign countries view US national will as a point of vulnerability for us, a strategic center of gravity, rather than a strength." If we were in the past as we are now, we would either be speaking German, whistling "Dixie" or growing tobacco for Queen Elizabeth. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:09:21 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5fl9phF3cdmnbU2@mid.individual.net> In article <1184196830.456916.24640@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > On Jul 11, 1:19 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >> >> >> >> > On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >> If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do >> >> the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When >> >> you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his >> >> "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into >> >> the air how do you stop the fighting? >> >> > Hearts and minds, Bill. Hearts and minds. >> >> You can never win the "Hearts and minds" of the Arab world. The story >> of the Good Samaritan is cute, but would never have happened in reality. >> If you save the life of a Moslem today he will still be required to >> kill you as an infidel tomorrow. And nothing can ever change that fact. >> > > Well, lack of altruism seems to be brought about by nurture, not > nature. > > > ... > "Without any prospect of immediate benefit, chimps helped both people > and other chimps that they didn't know, and the 18-month-olds > spontaneously assisted adults they'd never seen before" > ... > "The roots of human altruism reach back roughly 6 million years to a > common ancestor of people and chimps, the researchers propose in the > July PLoS Biology." > ... > > I thought it was interesting that in one of the experiments all but > one chimp exhibited altruism --- a relative of yours maybe? (I hope > you know I'm just kidding;-))) Are you referig perhaps to Jane Goodall's research? Sadly, research into gorilla behavior was quite different and finally shot down the myth that only man killed indiscriminately and without a reason. But then, maybe both are wrong as we also have learned that merely observing changes behavior. :-) And I don't think altruism has anything to do with it. I have never visited the VietNam memorial becasue I fear I will see the names of former friends. I, like many others, knew people who were in the twin towers. It is also likely that I had acquaintenances in the Pentagon. How many friends and acquaintenances should I let them our enemies kill before deciding enough is enough. Or should I wait until the potholes on I80 are outnumbered by the IED's. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:15:25 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5fla4tF3cdmnbU3@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/11/07 17:37, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <5fk1ihF3cqn27U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> Even more evidence that contrary to this notion of the great Arab culture >>>> they have never been and probably never will be civilized. And in line >>>> with the true Klingon concept, they have no honor. >>>> >>> People who write that kind of bigoted crap ought to be drafted. >> >> Sorry, a little late for that. I have been in the Army since 1968 and I >> was never drafted. > > 39 years??? > > Why haven't they retired you yet? I choose not to be retired. I expect to stay to the maximum of 62 years of age. Not all that time has been active, I have also been in the National Guard and the Army Reserve. But a goodly percentage of it was active and it is my age alone that prevents me from going back on active duty. Oh yeah, and for those who would like a good laugh, I just got turned down for a full-time Army assignment to Ft, Gordon because of my age. But I expect to be going to Afgahnistan, Iraq or Africa next year age notxr withstanding. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:31:53 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1184200313.175010.193540@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 11, 7:09 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <1184196830.456916.24...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > Doug Phillips writes: > > > > > On Jul 11, 1:19 pm, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article , > >> Ron Johnson writes: > > >> > On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > >> >> If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do > >> >> the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When > >> >> you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his > >> >> "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into > >> >> the air how do you stop the fighting? > > >> > Hearts and minds, Bill. Hearts and minds. > > >> You can never win the "Hearts and minds" of the Arab world. The story > >> of the Good Samaritan is cute, but would never have happened in reality. > >> If you save the life of a Moslem today he will still be required to > >> kill you as an infidel tomorrow. And nothing can ever change that fact. > > > Well, lack of altruism seems to be brought about by nurture, not > > nature. > > > > > ... > > "Without any prospect of immediate benefit, chimps helped both people > > and other chimps that they didn't know, and the 18-month-olds > > spontaneously assisted adults they'd never seen before" > > ... > > "The roots of human altruism reach back roughly 6 million years to a > > common ancestor of people and chimps, the researchers propose in the > > July PLoS Biology." > > ... > > > I thought it was interesting that in one of the experiments all but > > one chimp exhibited altruism --- a relative of yours maybe? (I hope > > you know I'm just kidding;-))) > > Are you referig perhaps to Jane Goodall's research? Sadly, research > into gorilla behavior was quite different and finally shot down the > myth that only man killed indiscriminately and without a reason. But > then, maybe both are wrong as we also have learned that merely observing > changes behavior. :-) No. I'm referring to the research referenced in the article accessed by the link I posted. I won't post the whole article, but I guess I should have posted more the first time: ## "Ape Aid: Chimps share altruistic capacity with people Bruce Bower Many researchers have asserted that only people will assist strangers without receiving anything in return, sometimes at great personal cost. However, a new study suggests that chimpanzees also belong to the Good Samaritan club, as do children as young as 18 months of age. Without any prospect of immediate benefit, chimps helped both people and other chimps that they didn't know, and the 18-month-olds spontaneously assisted adults they'd never seen before, say psychologist Felix Warneken of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, and his colleagues. The roots of human altruism reach back roughly 6 million years to a common ancestor of people and chimps, the researchers propose in the July PLoS Biology. "Learning and experience are involved in altruistic helping, but our claim is that there is a predisposition [in chimps and people] to develop such behavior without explicit training," Warneken says. ... ## This is current research. Looks like it was first published in June 2007 here: and that link will probably wrap. > > And I don't think altruism has anything to do with it. I have never > visited the VietNam memorial becasue I fear I will see the names of > former friends. I, like many others, knew people who were in the > twin towers. It is also likely that I had acquaintenances in the > Pentagon. How many friends and acquaintenances should I let them > our enemies kill before deciding enough is enough. Or should I > wait until the potholes on I80 are outnumbered by the IED's. > You mentioned the cute story of "The Good Samaritan." That's an example of altruism. Apparently we're born with it, but some people are taught to suppress it. Sad, that. I visited the traveling wall when it first came around, and it was a very moving experience. I served one enlistment from 1964 and never saw ground action, but saw it from the air. There are a few names on the wall that I'm familiar with, too. You'd think we would have learned. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:35:33 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <1184182533.159591.28690@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 10, 4:13 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/10/07 15:07, AEF wrote: > > > On Jul 9, 5:23 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 07/09/07 13:48, AEF wrote: > > >>> On Jul 9, 2:17 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>> On 07/09/07 10:45, AEF wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 9, 11:26 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > >>>>>> On 07/09/07 09:13, AEF wrote: > >>>>>> [snip] > >>>>>>> The only OSes I know that lets you delete to the right are MS-DOS and > >>>>>>> VOS. But MS-DOS won't let you delete words and VOS won't let you > >>>>>>> delete words to the left while VMS lets you delete words to the left. > >>>>>>> Well, in Unix if you're using the Korn shell you can "recall" a > >>>>>>> command and edit it with vi commands. > >>>>>> In addition to the "normal" PC editing control at the bash command > >>>>>> line (both at the console and in xterms), and ^W to delete previous > >>>>>> word, it. lets you do command editing in vi- or emacs-mode. > >>>>> What is "normal PC editing control"? > >>>> Having the grey , , & keys act like, > >>>> well, act like they've acted on PC operating systems since the > >>>> AT-keyboard was introduced. > >>> Doesn't work on mine (SunOS 5.8). When I press any of those keys I get > >>> a ~. > >> Solaris 8 on x86 or SPARC? > > > SPARC (Sun Ultra Enterprise 4000) > > > I log into this Unix box via SmarTerm telnet. > > Ah. Even though you are telneting in from a PC, that's not a "PC > operating system". Yes, I know that. I was just trying to be reasonably complete about my set up. You said nothing about PC's before you asked x86 or SPARC and I simply answered. > I wouldn't be surprised, though, that things would act differently > if you were running Solaris 11 on an x86-64 box. OK. > > >>>> That may seem a flippant answer, but it's all I can think to say. > >>>>> ^W -- cool! > >>>> And ^U deletes to BOL. > >>> Yes, I knew that. And ^E goes to end of line. Both just like VMS!!! > >> Not in Linux+bash. > > > Why the hell not? > > Oops. > > In "normal" mode, ^E *does* go to EOL, but not in vi-mode, which is > what I was in at the time. OK. Cool. They didn't break that. Does ^U still work the same? > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA [...] AEF Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening all at once. --Woody Allen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:59:47 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: On 07/11/07 14:35, AEF wrote: > On Jul 10, 4:13 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] >> >> In "normal" mode, ^E *does* go to EOL, but not in vi-mode, which is >> what I was in at the time. > > OK. Cool. They didn't break that. Does ^U still work the same? Yes. Delete to BOL. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:39:02 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.enco > h mpasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> But UNIX was already around. Maybe Larry knows whether TECO is older >> or UNIX (1968)? > > Your parenthetical indeed was necessary, as I know little about Unix. > > TECO was originally implemented for the PDP-1 about 1963. Gee, I didn't know it went back to the -1. No wonder I can use the PDP-11 TECO manual on my Alpha without translation. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 2007 16:49:13 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: TECO (was: Delete Key?) Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> TECO was originally implemented for the PDP-1 about 1963. > > Gee, I didn't know it went back to the -1. No wonder I can use > the PDP-11 TECO manual on my Alpha without translation. The name "TECO" was an acronym for "Tape Editor and COrrector". Those familiar with using TECO will realize how well it matches the paper tape model (if you ignore the more recent "-N" command). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:18:55 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: In article <5fkij5F3cn030U7@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > If some NNTP wizard posts the command to get the total number of groups, > > I'll telnet to port 119 and report the results here. > > list active That lists the groups, not their number! ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:21:40 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Text-Based Newsreader? Message-ID: <5flagkF3cdmnbU5@mid.individual.net> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article <5fkij5F3cn030U7@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes: > >> > If some NNTP wizard posts the command to get the total number of groups, >> > I'll telnet to port 119 and report the results here. >> >> list active > > That lists the groups, not their number! Count them!! Oh never mind, I will..... 25125 Damn, that was easy on Unix. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:45:18 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Upgrading from 7.3-2 to 8.3: seeking advice Message-ID: I plan to upgrade from 7.3-2 to 8.3 soon. Anything special I should keep in mind? I've lost track of the layered-product distributions. Since I like to bundle my upgrades, it would be nice to wait until the next layered-product distribution ships. When should that be? (The OS is not so critical since patches are available from ITRC and I haven't lost track of OS patches.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:19:42 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <3f3b6$469557b9$cef8887a$18275@TEKSAVVY.COM> David J Dachtera wrote: > Not relevant, since we do not set off car bombs, hijack commercial aircraft, or > anything of the sort. Humm, I recall a certain saudi that got training an funcing from a US organisationcalled the CIA to do just that. I need not name him. You are naive if you really think that the USA doesn't do nasty stuff to further its public rethoric. They have destabilised governmenst in the past and supported terrorist organisations (does the IRA ring a bell ?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:23:13 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/11/07 17:19, JF Mezei wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: >> Not relevant, since we do not set off car bombs, hijack commercial >> aircraft, or >> anything of the sort. > > > > Humm, I recall a certain saudi that got training an funcing from a US > organisationcalled the CIA to do just that. I need not name him. Training others to fight the Sovs is *not* the same thing as us detonating a car in an Iraqi market. Not being able to tell the difference is really disturbing. > > You are naive if you really think that the USA doesn't do nasty stuff to > further its public rethoric. They have destabilised governmenst in the > past and supported terrorist organisations (does the IRA ring a bell ?) We've done (and do) dirty stuff (topple elected leaders, support violent juntas, etc), but no, that's not detonating bombs in crowded civilian markets or hijacking aircraft. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:18:17 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <5flaa9F3cdmnbU4@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 07/11/07 17:19, JF Mezei wrote: >> David J Dachtera wrote: >>> Not relevant, since we do not set off car bombs, hijack commercial >>> aircraft, or >>> anything of the sort. >> >> >> >> Humm, I recall a certain saudi that got training an funcing from a US >> organisationcalled the CIA to do just that. I need not name him. > > Training others to fight the Sovs is *not* the same thing as us > detonating a car in an Iraqi market. > > Not being able to tell the difference is really disturbing. > >> >> You are naive if you really think that the USA doesn't do nasty stuff to >> further its public rethoric. They have destabilised governmenst in the >> past and supported terrorist organisations (does the IRA ring a bell ?) > > We've done (and do) dirty stuff (topple elected leaders, support > violent juntas, etc), but no, that's not detonating bombs in crowded > civilian markets or hijacking aircraft. And the US government has never supported the IRA. The civilians (especially around New York and Boston as I know, again, from personal experience) have never had a problem paying for weapons to be smuggled into Northern Ireland, but the US government has expended a lot of effort trying to head these death merchants off. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.377 ************************