INFO-VAX Sat, 28 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 409 Contents: Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Re: Advanced Server MAX_SMB_DATA_SIZE Re: Advanced Server MAX_SMB_DATA_SIZE Re: decnet startup failing Re: decnet startup failing Re: decnet startup failing Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:32:15 -0500 From: bradhamilton@comcast.net (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: 7.3-2 ISO? Message-ID: In article <1185531944.992127.285310@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter wrote: [...] >Mark, > >I concur with Ken. Unlike many other operating systems, you can >duplicate system disks without worry among systems of differing >hardware configurations. You will, as Ken has already pointed out, >need to reset various licenses, and reset various personalization >parameters (e.g., SCS ID, Node Names, Node Numbers, etc.). This statement is not entirely true, at least not true a number of years ago. My responsibility was to maintain "large" systems in a test-bed environment. We had an Alpha 7XXX, (actually a "board swap" upgrade of a VAX 7000) which needed to be upgraded to an 8400, in order to replicate our production machines. Before the HW swap, we were under the impression that we could simply reboot the system using the same system disk with no changes necessary, and represented this certainty to our customer while going over the time-line for the swap (a very closely plotted M$ Project document, complete with down-to-the minute details). Imagine our surprise when the network refused to start up on the new machines, because we were using a different network controller on the upgraded box. We were all flummoxed for a while, until one of us realized what the problem was. A quick change to one of the startup command files, and we were back in business (although we had some 'splainin' to do to the customer in the "post-mortem" review). :-) I imagine that HW upgrades with newer boxen are much easier now, but I would be *very* hesistant to state that there would be no "worries" when moving from one machine to another. [...] >Retiring older hardware and >replacing it with new is a straightforward process, generally not >requiring a distribution kit, but there are some potential pitfalls. As has been shown above. :-) >It is routine, but I would not recommend it as an initial project. It *was* my initial project, with some valuable lessons I'll not soon forget. :-) [...] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:48:45 -0000 From: Ed Wilts Subject: Re: Advanced Server MAX_SMB_DATA_SIZE Message-ID: <1185562125.533116.175090@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> > Based on information I received, the limit is still 32768. > > Other links that may be of interest: > > http://tinyurl.com/2jreau(Ask the Wizard info)http://tinyurl.com/yv9tn9(discussion)http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/advserv73.html(Adv Server doc's) Thanks Kerry! I had read the ITRC thread but hadn't seen the "Ask the Wizard" query (Google didn't find it!). I had checked the paper doc set but couldn't even find a description of pwrk.ini at all. I think I am getting somewhere with the Cisco appliance. After more thoroughly going into the tracedumps and reading the CIFS protocol documentation, it appears that Cisco is breaking the rules. The buffer size is supposed to be negotiated and AS 7.3 does correctly respond with a 16k maximum buffer size in its response, and then the appliance asks for 64k. Cisco has the traces to prove me wrong. Are there any downsides to increasing max_smb_data_size from 16k to 32k? I know this won't fix this particular issue, but we haven't reviewed what the number should be in about 5 years. Thanks again, .../Ed ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:10:23 -0000 From: Ed Wilts Subject: Re: Advanced Server MAX_SMB_DATA_SIZE Message-ID: <1185563423.012577.64640@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Jul 27, 12:19 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > Based on information I received, the limit is still 32768. Thanks Kerry! I had read the ITRC thread but didn't find the Ask The Wizard before your posting. Are there any downsides to setting a maximum smb data size of 32k vs 16k? We last changed it in 2002 so it might be time for an update... When is a smaller data size more appropriate? Memory consumption is not an issue - we have lots to spare. I don't think that changing it to 32k would help this particular case with the Cisco appliance but it doesn't hurt to get the parameters set right anyway. I've captured a trace that shows a negotiated maximum buffer size of 16448 and then the appliance asks for 65k and naturally Advanced Server says no (STATUS_BUFFER_TOO_SMALL). Cisco has the traces to look at this now. Thanks again, .../Ed mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org Ed Wilts, RHCE, BCFP, BCSD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:49:34 -0700 From: jhjr4381 Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: <1185562174.703862.244450@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Jul 27, 1:47 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > jhjr4381 wrote: > > DVNETEND DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) 30- > > OK, it appears the licence is OK. > > > $ show network decnet > > %NETWRK-E-NOAVAILABLE, network service information is unavailable at > > this time > > Decnet is down or definitely a sick puppy. Does this happen on both nodes ? > Only happens on ASKNT2 (node a) Node B gives me: Product: DECNET Node: ALPHA3 Address(es): 12.117 > > $ mc ncp show known nodes > > Executor node = 12.116 (ASKNT2) > > 12.117 (ALPHA3) 1 3 ISA-0 0 > > You should make sure that MC NCP SHOW KNOWN NODES when executed on > ALPHA3, would show 12.116 (ASKNT2) . AKA: the alpha knows about the vax, > and the vax knows about the alpha. > MC NCP SHOW KNOWN NODES: node a - asknt2 Executor node = 12.116 (ASKNT2) 12.117 (ALPHA3) 2 2 ISA-0 0 node b - Alpha3 Executor node = 12.117 (ALPHA3) 12.116 (ASKNT2) 1 1 SVA-0 0 looks OK > What you could do is > $ MC NCP SET EXECUTOR STATE SHUT > $ @SYS$MANAGER:NETCONFIG > > And just rebuild your decnet config from scratch. It is fairly quick and > painless. > > After it is done: > $MC NCP DEFINE NODE 12.117 NAME ALPHA3 > > AND THEN @SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET Did the above and got the following when STARTNET executed: MC NCP DEFINE NODE 12.117 NAME ALPHA3 $ @SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET %SYSGEN-E-NOUNLOAD, driver is not unloadable %SYSGEN-F-DEVACTIVE, device is active %RUN-F-CREPRC, process creation failed -SYSTEM-F-DUPLNAM, duplicate name %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of MOM$SYSTEM has been superseded %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of MOM$SYSTEM_NOSOFTID has been superseded %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of MOM$SYSTEM_SOFTID has been superseded %NCP-I-NOINFO, No information in database %RUN-F-CREPRC, process creation failed -SYSTEM-F-DUPLNAM, duplicate name Which device is active? $ mc ncp show known nodesExecutor node = 12.116 (ASKNT2) State = on Identification = DECnet for OpenVMS VAX V6.1 Node State Active Delay Circuit Next node Links 1.41 (CONDOR) ISA-0 0 4.316 (USILED) ISA-0 0 4.317 (ASKRD) ISA-0 0 4.319 (RDAXP) ISA-0 0 4.320 (ALPHA2) ISA-0 0 12.111 (WRCMAN) ISA-0 0 12.112 (ASKNT1) ISA-0 0 12.115 (ALPHA1) ISA-0 0 12.117 (ALPHA3) 1 1 ISA-0 0 12.118 (BILBO) ISA-0 0 40.101 (VUKPM) ISA-0 0 55.100 (USWWVM) ISA-0 0 most of these nodes don't exist, I'll delete them as well > > > Looking at systartup_vms (on node A - VAX), LAT$STARTUP.COM is > > commented out. TCPIP is not started at all either. the only thing I > > see is an MC LATCP SET NODE/CONN=BOTH. > > If you don't call LAT$STARTUP.COM , it is likely that the LATCP command > is just changing a configuration without having an effect. Not starting > LAT means that people cannot SET HOST/LAT to that machine, and people > cannot SET HOST/LAT from that machine to another. > > If TCPIP is also not started, then people cannot telnet in or out of > that machine. > > However, you may also wish to look at: > > $MC SYSMAN STARTUP SHOW FILE > > This was some not-too-succesful attempts at moving stuff from > systartup_VMS.com to some database to make it look "cool", but it never > really caught on in a big way, but unfortunatly, some products gets > started from that and it makes managing a system harder because there > are now 2 places where stuff gets executed during system startup. > $ MC SYSMAN STARTUP SHOW FILE %SYSMAN-I-COMFIL, contents of component database on node ASKNT2 Phase Mode File ------------ ------ --------------------------------- LPMAIN DIRECT EASY$STARTUP.COM $ Looks like it's just a shell .com file - nothing is changed EASY$STARTUP.COM;1 show log easy* (EASY$LOGICAL_NAMES) "EASY$COMMAND" = "SYS$COMMON:[EASYMGR.IMAGE]" "EASY$LESSONS" = "SYS$COMMON:[EASYMGR.]" "EASY$MANAGER" = "SYS$COMMON:[EASYMGR.MANAGER]" "EASY$PROGRAM" = "SYS$COMMON:[EASYMGR.IMAGE]" "EASY$VERSION" = "02.0" Checked node B, got: -sysman-i-noderror error returned from ALPHA3 startup-e-comfilemty, Startup component file is empty yet we can telnet to ALPHA3, though no TCPIP$ startup com files in systartup_vms.com exists > >e as well. Oh, > > > there is in systartup_vms.com on node B, "DEFE DECW$IGNORE_DECNET > > TRUE", > > This is benign. It pertains to decwindows transports. If that node runs > decwindows server software (eg: the X terminal), that will cause it to > not listen to DECNET for incoming calls. > > > If I execute the lat$startup in systartup_vms.com on both nodes will > > it allow users to log directly on to that system (A)? > > Example: > > $@sys$startup:lat$startup NODE1 - > "/IDENTIFICATION=""""NODE1 of the BANANA cluster""""" > > You then need to go and edit LAT$SYSTARTUP.COM in sys$manager to > uncomment the portions you want. (that file is fairly well documented). > yes, looked at that file, seems pretty straight forward. > > Thanks all for the help / suggestions. > > $ help /suggestions > %DCL-W-IVQUAL, unrecognized qualifier - check validity, spelling, and > placement > \SUGGESTIONS\ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:06:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: <2e940$46aa50ba$cef8887a$13287@TEKSAVVY.COM> jhjr4381 wrote: > Did the above and got the following when STARTNET executed: > MC NCP DEFINE NODE 12.117 NAME ALPHA3 > $ @SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET > %SYSGEN-E-NOUNLOAD, driver is not unloadable > %SYSGEN-F-DEVACTIVE, device is active > %RUN-F-CREPRC, process creation failed > -SYSTEM-F-DUPLNAM, duplicate name First message is normal. Second message indicates there is already a process using the decnet name. SHOW SYS would give you NETACP and/or REMACP. IF MC NCP SET EXECUTOR STATE SHUT doesn't kill that process, you may need to use bigger hammers (you can try STOP/ID but that often fails for ACP type of processes who refuse to be killed. > $ mc ncp show known nodesExecutor node = 12.116 (ASKNT2) > > State = on > Identification = DECnet for OpenVMS VAX V6.1 > > > Node State Active Delay Circuit Next node > Links > > 1.41 (CONDOR) ISA-0 0 > 4.316 (USILED) ISA-0 0 > 4.317 (ASKRD) ISA-0 0 > 4.319 (RDAXP) ISA-0 0 > 4.320 (ALPHA2) ISA-0 0 When you use NETCONFIG, it will normally flush the known nodes list fromm it. MC NCP LIST KNOWN NODES should reveal an empty list. If not, then your NETCONFIG did not work properly. (with NCP: LIST -> permanent database, SHOW -> dynamic/running database. ) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:29:56 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >jhjr4381 wrote: >> Did the above and got the following when STARTNET executed: >> MC NCP DEFINE NODE 12.117 NAME ALPHA3 >> $ @SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET >> %SYSGEN-E-NOUNLOAD, driver is not unloadable >> %SYSGEN-F-DEVACTIVE, device is active >> %RUN-F-CREPRC, process creation failed >> -SYSTEM-F-DUPLNAM, duplicate name >REMACP. IF MC NCP SET EXECUTOR STATE SHUT doesn't kill that process, >you may need to use bigger hammers (you can try STOP/ID but that often >fails for ACP type of processes who refuse to be killed. NCP SET EXECUTOR STATE SHUT is a "gentle" shutdown of the network. Any links active at the time remain active, but no new links can be created. The NETACP process (and the net itself) remain active until the last net user quits using the net. You want MC NCP SET EXECUTOR STATE OFF to be sure net users (and the NETACP process) are gone. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 2007 18:09:43 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5guqn7F3hm0ciU1@mid.individual.net> In article <9aTgHKYzl9PM@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5gskcfF3h8mjoU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Bull crap. > > And here I thought you were a gun owner. I am a gun owner. A number of them actually. > Have you never had the > pleasure of blowing off some steam with a shotgun? No. I'm a gun owner, not an idiot. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:46:36 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/27/07 11:18, Paul Raulerson wrote: > If you qualify that with "relected after they had been caught and > exposed" then I might agree with you. One of the things I like > about Republicans - they are honest crooks. When you catch one, > he stays caught. :) > > But there are sure a lot of them... Newt, Foley, DeLay... etc. Foley? Tom Foley was a Democrat, and TTBOMK never had any/much scandal problems. Maybe you are thinking of his Speaker of the House predecessor Jim Wright. Also a Democrat. He resigned under an ethics cloud, but no criminal/civil charges were ever filed. (In the spirit of fairness and balance, Newt pulled a similar book deal earlier in the 80s.) > > Subject: Re: July the 4th From: "Ron Johnson" > Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:00:00 +0000 To: > Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > On 07/27/07 07:33, Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article , Ron Johnson >> writes: >>> Now there's a blast from the past... >>> >>> Why do Liberals/Democrats keep on electing proven criminals? >> The same reason Republicans do. > > Name me a convicted Republican that's been re-elected. > > (Speaking of corrupt Democrats: how could I, a Louisianian, have > forgotten Edwin Edwards? Shame on me.) > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:38:08 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W6620628582_26022_1185568688 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Paul Raulerson wrote: >> See, that is the way the U.S. works, we try to be respectful of other >> people's beliefs, but we absolutely insist on the right to have our >> individual beliefs respected too. And we back that right up with force= of >> arms. > >You can't tell others they can't have while the USA insists that it = >can have > > =3D nuclear, WMD's land mines, pollution etc etc etc. > Of course we can, and have since around 1823 when the Monroe Doctrine cam= e into play. At that was based on far older rules of precendence. A ICBM can reach any square mile of territory in the entire Western Hemis= phere, it is a perfectly legal and justifiable extension of what began wi= th the Monroe Doctine to take steps to avoid them landing anywhwere in ou= r territory. It is just as valid for another power, say Russia, to want t= o defend their borders. Even countries like North and South Korea, who do= it with landmines. It is NOT valid, not is it legal, for another power or an orgranization s= upported by another power, to crash airplanes into our building and kill = our people, murder our soldiers with IED's, or what. >The USA is *a* country of the planet. Not "THE" country of the planet. >It deserves no speacial consideration and if it wants to be respected, >it must adhere to what the world has decided via the UN. Horsehockey! By your lights all countries are equal and deserve exactly t= he same rights. Nothing could be further from the truth. What do you thin= k would happen should the U.S. suddenly drop their forgein aid levels to = that of say, Uganda? Or suppose we dropped out portion of financial support to the UN to that = of Brazil? The UN is not a world government, it is a forum for the govern= ments of the world to come to consensus. And the voice of those governmen= t is proportional to the funding provided to the UN by those governments.= Take a look at the membership of the security council to verify that. >Someone else complained about my attitude towards your country. Does it = >not bother you that so many people in the world have come to hate what >the USA has become ? Do you really believe your lying idiot politicians = >who claim that people hate the uSA simply because the USA has freedom ? Not in the least - they can have whatever opinion they care to, whether i= t be some careful, thought out opinion, or some opinion I think quite foo= lish. If they intend to *act* on those opinions in terms of military or t= errorist ideas, then yes, it is worth looking into the "whys" and seeing = if there are things that can be done to defuse the situation. But there a= re some groups out there that are just so crazy they demand that all of u= s agree with them and do things *their* way. Like separate bathrooms for Muslims... sheesh - *that* crap went out in t= he 1960's. And good riddance to it too! >The reason the USA is so despised, the reason you have groups such as >Al-Quada hell bent on hurting the USA is because the USA insists on >disregarding what the planet wants and impose its own will on the world.= Bull crap again. The reason is they are flat jealous of what we hav worke= d so hard to achieve, and what they are not jealous of, they are terrifie= d by. How can so MANY diffrent races, ethnic groups, immigrant groups, an= d people with varied ethical, social, sexual, and religions beliefs possi= ble live in the same country without shooting each other? And how can all= of them be essentially *rich*? They cannot see the real, simple, answer in front of their noses. (*sigh*= ) Your idea that there is some consensus of what "the planet wants" is a li= ttle on the ridiculous side too. Who specificly, is "the planet." >And the USA has now shows it is a very dangerous baby. UN didn't want to= >give Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz/Cheney's gift by refusing a resolution to allow = >them to send their army to Iraq, so they throw a tamper tantrum and go >into Iraq anyways and enjoy the fireworks they created. You go that partly right. The US *is* dangerous. Very *very* dangerous. J= ust let you pals keep up their threats a bit longer, and the very most da= ngerous part of us will come to the forefront again. Your freinds seem to believe that the U.S. is not dangerous at all, and m= aybe safely twitted anytime they like. They are wrong. >History has proven that when an invador deploys land mines, it never >removes them when it leaves because it always ends up leaving in shame >and fairly quickly. There are very good reasons why the rest of the >world has banned the use of land mines. The USA has no business laying >land mines outside its own territory. If it wants to have the burden of = >all the extra medical costs of taking care of americans maimed by land >mines inside the USA, that it isn't business. But it has no business >laying land mines outside its territory, forcing that country to then be= >burndened for *decades* by the high costs of taking care of the victims = >of the USA's short term use of landmines. Quite simply, your history is incomplete. Talk to North Korea, Iran, and = most of North Africa about landmines. >Do you realise that people are still getting maimed in Vietnam ? They can pay a good commercial company to come in and clean 'em up you kn= ow. But that would (gasp)cost MONEY, and not get them sympanthy. It would= just keep their own people from getting killed. ----=_vm_0011_W6620628582_26022_1185568688-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:49:23 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/27/07 15:38, Paul Raulerson wrote: [snip] > > >> The USA is *a* country of the planet. Not "THE" country of the >> planet. It deserves no speacial consideration and if it wants >> to be respected, it must adhere to what the world has decided >> via the UN. > > Horsehockey! By your lights all countries are equal and deserve > exactly the same rights. Nothing could be further from the truth. > What do you think would happen should the U.S. suddenly drop > their forgein aid levels to that of say, Uganda? > > Or suppose we dropped out portion of financial support to the UN > to that of Brazil? The UN is not a world government, it is a > forum for the governments of the world to come to consensus. And > the voice of those government is proportional to the funding > provided to the UN by those governments. > > Take a look at the membership of the security council to verify > that. > >> Someone else complained about my attitude towards your country. >> Does it not bother you that so many people in the world have >> come to hate what the USA has become ? Do you really believe >> your lying idiot politicians who claim that people hate the uSA >> simply because the USA has freedom ? > > Not in the least - they can have whatever opinion they care to, > whether it be some careful, thought out opinion, or some opinion > I think quite foolish. If they intend to *act* on those opinions > in terms of military or terrorist ideas, then yes, it is worth > looking into the "whys" and seeing if there are things that can > be done to defuse the situation. But there are some groups out > there that are just so crazy they demand that all of us agree > with them and do things *their* way. > > Like separate bathrooms for Muslims... sheesh - *that* crap went > out in the 1960's. And good riddance to it too! I've got to agree with you on those two points. The world really does need a "place to talk", but the UN is such an incredibly fetid swamp of corruption that it needs to be blown up and start over. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:49:12 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: On 07/27/07 11:25, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > John Reagan wrote: [snip] >> >> Back in the 1980s, some group inside of DEC did an >> Internationalization study on VAX Pascal. They wanted the compiler to >> recognize upper and lower case versions of the same "word" where the >> spellings were different. For example, there are some French words >> that gain or loose an accent when changing case (and sometimes only in >> Quebec). There are German words like straße (5 chars long) and >> STRASSE (6 chars long). They wanted the Pascal compiler to treat both >> spellings as the same identifier. We passed around the report, got a >> good laugh, and shoved it in a drawer (I think I still have it). >> >> > > And since then the germans has dropped the "double-s", so you'd better > make a new revison anyway... :-) How can you just drop a letter from the alphabet? What happens to all the books/articles/letters/etc written prior to when the letter was dropped? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:44:52 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/27/07 11:25, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >> John Reagan wrote: > [snip] >>> Back in the 1980s, some group inside of DEC did an >>> Internationalization study on VAX Pascal. They wanted the compiler to >>> recognize upper and lower case versions of the same "word" where the >>> spellings were different. For example, there are some French words >>> that gain or loose an accent when changing case (and sometimes only in >>> Quebec). There are German words like straße (5 chars long) and >>> STRASSE (6 chars long). They wanted the Pascal compiler to treat both >>> spellings as the same identifier. We passed around the report, got a >>> good laugh, and shoved it in a drawer (I think I still have it). >>> >>> >> And since then the germans has dropped the "double-s", so you'd better >> make a new revison anyway... :-) > > How can you just drop a letter from the alphabet? > > What happens to all the books/articles/letters/etc written prior to > when the letter was dropped? > OK. They changed the written standard so that two "ss" should be used instead of the special character. Now, there was a *lot* of fuzz around this, and I'm not 100% sure how it all turned out in the end. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:44:41 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: On 07/27/07 16:44, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 07/27/07 11:25, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>> John Reagan wrote: >> [snip] >>>> Back in the 1980s, some group inside of DEC did an >>>> Internationalization study on VAX Pascal. They wanted the compiler to >>>> recognize upper and lower case versions of the same "word" where the >>>> spellings were different. For example, there are some French words >>>> that gain or loose an accent when changing case (and sometimes only in >>>> Quebec). There are German words like straße (5 chars long) and >>>> STRASSE (6 chars long). They wanted the Pascal compiler to treat both >>>> spellings as the same identifier. We passed around the report, got a >>>> good laugh, and shoved it in a drawer (I think I still have it). >>>> >>>> >>> And since then the germans has dropped the "double-s", so you'd better >>> make a new revison anyway... :-) >> >> How can you just drop a letter from the alphabet? >> >> What happens to all the books/articles/letters/etc written prior to >> when the letter was dropped? >> > > OK. They changed the written standard so that two "ss" should be used > instead of the special character. Now, there was a *lot* of fuzz > around this, and I'm not 100% sure how it all turned out in the end. Ah, ok. That makes more sense. I wish American English spelling could be rationalized, but then children would need to learn the Old Way and the New Way, leaving even less time for important things like science and recess. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:57:49 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: <46AAB0AD.4000406@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/27/07 16:44, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > >>Ron Johnson wrote: >> >>>On 07/27/07 11:25, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>> >>>>John Reagan wrote: >>> >>>[snip] >>> >>>>>Back in the 1980s, some group inside of DEC did an >>>>>Internationalization study on VAX Pascal. They wanted the compiler to >>>>>recognize upper and lower case versions of the same "word" where the >>>>>spellings were different. For example, there are some French words >>>>>that gain or loose an accent when changing case (and sometimes only in >>>>>Quebec). There are German words like straße (5 chars long) and >>>>>STRASSE (6 chars long). They wanted the Pascal compiler to treat both >>>>>spellings as the same identifier. We passed around the report, got a >>>>>good laugh, and shoved it in a drawer (I think I still have it). >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>And since then the germans has dropped the "double-s", so you'd better >>>>make a new revison anyway... :-) >>> >>>How can you just drop a letter from the alphabet? >>> >>>What happens to all the books/articles/letters/etc written prior to >>>when the letter was dropped? >>> >> >>OK. They changed the written standard so that two "ss" should be used >>instead of the special character. Now, there was a *lot* of fuzz >>around this, and I'm not 100% sure how it all turned out in the end. > > > Ah, ok. That makes more sense. > > I wish American English spelling could be rationalized, but then > children would need to learn the Old Way and the New Way, leaving > even less time for important things like science and recess. > It's been done. See http://www.rajeun.net/index4.html ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:16:28 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > On 07/27/07 16:44, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > > OK. They changed the written standard so that two "ss" should be used > > instead of the special character. Now, there was a *lot* of fuzz > > around this, and I'm not 100% sure how it all turned out in the end. > > Ah, ok. That makes more sense. > > I wish American English spelling could be rationalized, but then > children would need to learn the Old Way and the New Way, leaving > even less time for important things like science and recess. The Netherlands produced a revised dictionary in 1954 (The Little Green Book), and are continuing to revise it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_orthography#The_spelling_changes_of_19 46_.28Flanders.29_and_1947_.28The_Netherlands.29 That wraps, tinyurl for that: http://preview.tinyurl.com/2d35lq -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.409 ************************