INFO-VAX Sun, 05 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 425 Contents: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Kerry needs a news reader RE: Kerry needs a news reader Re: Kerry needs a news reader Re: Kerry needs a news reader Re: Kerry needs a news reader RE: Kerry needs a news reader RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 14:04:07 -0700 From: "Jeffrey H. Coffield" Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) > exist on IA64 ? Since it has been in "maintenance mode" for ages, > perhaps it was easy for some wintel employee at Compaq to not include it > in the list of software to port to iA64 ? Decnet Phase 4 works fine on Itanium. I have never seen the benefit of upgrading to Phase V. Jeff Coffield ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:57:52 GMT From: "Colin Butcher" Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: Phase IV exists on IA64. Works fine. However, Phase V really does do a better job, especially with multiple NICs and multiple LANs. I accept that NCL is a severe learning curve, but it really is worth the effort. You can find out a lot more about what's going on. This might help: http://www.downloads.xdelta.co.uk/vmstjv5%20feb2005/decnet%20article%20vms%20tj%20v5%20feb2005.pdf -- Cheers, Colin. Legacy = Stuff that works properly! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:57:04 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: <46B53C80.5010402@comcast.net> Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > >> Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) >> exist on IA64 ? > Decnet Phase 4 works fine on Itanium. I have never seen the benefit of > upgrading to Phase V. Nor have I. AFAIK there is no benefit to Phase V unless you want to run a VERY LARGE DECnet network; e.g. >65535 nodes. On the downside, NCL is a nightmare to use and the last documentation I saw was incredibly poor; the author was so damned proud of all the layers, stacks and towers that he never got around to explaining "how to do it"! It didn't help that DEC tried to support every conceivable physical layer from tin cans and string to satellite links and all we really wanted was Ethernet. I had to cope with Phase V for a few months while I was at McGraw-Hill; I've never known anyone else who used it. ISTR that the US Government decided to require the ISO protocol suite. The trouble with that was that TCP/IP had conquered the world while the ISO was busy debating the standard. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 10:58:33 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186250313.150741.287540@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Aug 4, 12:55 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > *Sorry if this posts twice; Google told me that it posted > successfully, then told me it hadn't yet posted when I tried to leave > the page:-( a Google-Gurgle? ) > > On Aug 4, 8:50 am, AEF wrote: > > > On Aug 3, 5:49 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > On Aug 3, 3:46 pm, AEF wrote: > > [...] > > > > > How is it a bug? > > > > > $ DIR/WID=FILE=15/NOSIZE > > > > > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] > > > > > BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 > > > > BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 > > > > BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 > > > > BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 > > > > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > > > > BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 > > > > BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 > > > > BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 > > > > BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 > > > > > Total of 9 files. > > > > $ > > > > > What would you expect for > > > > > A $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 > > > > B $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=1 > > > > C $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=2 > > > > D $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=3 > > > > For each of those, I would expect that if I did > > > > $ DIR/BEFORE=16:37:06 > > > > I would see the same files that PURGE would select for consideration; > > > > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > > > BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 > > > BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 > > > BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 > > > BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 > > > > For your example A & B, I would expect to end up with: > > > > BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 > > > BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 > > > BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 > > > BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 > > > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > > > Hmmm. Since ;5 is before the time given to /BEFORE, and since it is > > not the highest version, I'd expect it to be deleted. Why would you > > expect ;5 to remain? > > Because the command is PURGE, *not* DELETE. Purge is supposed to keep > the highest (to a maximum of the specified number of) version(s) of > the *specified* files if any files match the selection criteria. The > default is the _specified_file(s)_ with the highest version number(s). > If you want to DELETE the files, then use DELETE. PURGE is *not* > DELETE. I can see it both ways. The advantage of the current way is that you can delete all files older than a certain time except that the current version is always kept. How would you do this with your desired algorithm? To be more explicit, let's use the example above. Suppose I want to get rid of all files older than 16:37:07, except to not delete the current version even if it too is older. I can do $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:07 and versions 7 thru 5 will be deleted. You can't do that with your desired algorithm. You can counter by saying, well you should use DELETE. Well I can counter by saying suppose I want to do the same command except using the time 17:00 but be sure the current version is unconditionally not deleted: $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=17 Now, all versions satisfy the criterion but the first one is kept. This way I can freely construct commands like this and be sure that I always leave the current version intact. There is no way to do this with the algorithm you prefer without an unreaonable amount of pain. If you don't like the current algorithm you can always just add one to the number you would otherwise supply to the /KEEP qualifier. But if your algorithm is implemented there is not way, short of writing a multi-line DCL procedure (or a painful /EXCLUDE qualifier), to do what I want as described just above. Why would I want this? To protect my self from user error. Using DELETE is riskier. With PURGE I can be assured that I won't inadvertently delete all versions of a file. I see it this way: $ PURGE ! Delete all but the current version $ PURGE/BEFORE=time ! Consider the same versions for deletion as in PURGE, but delete only the versions that meet the /BEFORE=time criterion. > > Already we're in disagreement. OK. > > How unusual;-) > > There's no way I'm going to quote your entire novella of a post(;-))), > but I'll try to address some of your confusion. You might have to go > back and reread your own post to understand some of the points I'm > addressing. > > > There are various ways to mix /KEEP and /BEFORE. One could apply / > > KEEP=n first, mark those n files as keepers, and then delete any > > others that are timestamped before the specified time t0. That's one > > way to do it -- method 1. OK. Method 2: The way you appear to favor is > > that we look at the files that are timestamped as being before time > > t0, and apply /KEEP=n solely within those. The third way is what VMS > > does -- method 3. > > There is no "my way". There is no "mix" of /KEEP and /BEFORE. These > PURGE qualifiers are precisely explained in the HELP and the Doc's. > You are fighting those definitions trying to find an explanation that > fits how the command malfunctions. You are trying to apply the logic > of the DELETE command to PURGE. PURGE is not DELETE! The doc is ambigiuous for /KEEP. I already proved this. > The /BEFORE qualifier is a FILE SELECTOR. It says select files dated > before this date. That's the way /BEFORE works in this command and all > of the other DCL commands where it's used. That is as simple as it > gets. It depends on what you mean by "file". I can have multiple versions of one file. That use of file means one file. But each version is itself a "file", but in another sense, which then means multiple files. Besides, /BEFORE "selects" which versions can be deleted. The parameter "specifies" which files are to be PURGEd. > The /KEEP says how many of the SELECTED files should be kept if more > than that number exist. The default is one. That's not what the doc says. The doc says this: /KEEP=number-of-versions Specifies the maximum number of versions of the specified files to be retained in the directory. If you do not include the /KEEP qualifier, all but the highest numbered version of the specified files are deleted from the directory. It's too vague to be of any use. Besides, you specify with the parameter. The qualifiers select, not specify. Without other qualifiers, this is what /KEEP=n means as I see it: Put the n highest versions on an exclude list. Delete the others. If there are fewer than n versions, do nothing. That's not the same. > Purge removes any files > with version numbers lower than the files you tell it to keep (by spec > or default, always at least one if at least one file is selected.) It > says *nothing* about how many files should be purged (deleted, if you > prefer.) It says how many should be *kept*. That's also as simple as > it gets. PURGE, by definition, should *always* keep at least ONE of > the files selected by the file spec It's specified, not selected. > and all other file selection > qualifiers that you provide, if any exist, and it should keep the > number of files you specify if that many exist. /KEEP means keep, not > delete. And here we disagree. And we will always disagree on this. So use /KEEP=2 and you'll get what you want. If the algorithm of PURGE is changed to what you want it to be then I won't be able to do what I want without writing a multiline DCL procedure. > There should be no way for purge to delete every *selected* file. > That's what DELETE is for, and because DELETE can remove all versions > of files, it requires a more precise file spec. Again, PURGE is not > DELETE. But commands like DELETE/BEFORE='time' risk the deletion of all versions of a file. So I can't use DELETE without having to look at the version number(s) I wish to keep and putting it(them) in the exclude qualifier, which would only work if only one file is specified. If multiple files are specified then I don't think you could do it even with /EXCLUDE without explicitly typing out the full name, type, and version number of each and every version I want to keep (because there's no sticky-default action with /EXCLUDE!). What a pain! It's much easier to use /KEEP=2 if you want to do it your way. > > I guess I can only keep repeating what the documentation says, because > that's the way it *should* work. But, that's not the way it works. > > In reading everything you've written, I see you struggling. Your > attempted "simplifications" show you are fighting the fact that the > way PURGE works is not the way it was intended to work. PURGE is *NOT* > DELETE. If you read the HELP and the doc's again, keeping that fact in > mind, I think you'll see that the explanations are clear and precise. I'm struggling because I find it difficult to put my thoughts into words. And I'm trying to be precise and explicit because words such as earlier, older, file, version, etc. are not precise enough. I'm also hoping that some variation of my explanation will make my point of view clear to you. No, the doc is not clear and precise. If I just told you to get me a maximum of three apples, how many will you bring? That's precise? "Oh, get me anywhere from zero to three apples, okay?" That's what the description of /KEEP is saying. > > In the ITRC discussion, Jon Pinkley demonstrated that the bug is not > limited to the /BEFORE qualifier. I hope he doesn't mind if I quote > some of his post here: > > ######################################################## > > [...] > This discussion has convinced me that the behavior should be as you > describe, since the "selected files" should be the set of files > selected by the filespec and the qualifiers. The bug in purge is not > limited to /before as is demonstrated by the following: > > $ show system/noproc ! not portable ... > OpenVMS V8.3 on node SIGMA 23-FEB-2007 22:23:30.28 Uptime 1 00:56:43 > $ analyze/image/select=(id,link) sys$system:delete.exe; ! not portable > SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]DELETE.EXE;1 > "X-05" > 29-JUN-2006 18:18:42.45 > $ directory/own/date=(cre,mod) pt.tmp;* > > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] > > PT.TMP;5 1-JAN-2000 01:00:31.11 1-JAN-2000 01:01:31.11 [SYSTEM] > PT.TMP;4 2-JAN-2000 01:00:30.99 2-JAN-2000 01:01:30.99 [1,1] > PT.TMP;3 3-JAN-2000 01:00:30.88 3-JAN-2000 01:01:30.88 [1,1] > PT.TMP;2 4-JAN-2000 01:00:30.78 4-JAN-2000 01:01:30.78 [SYSTEM] > PT.TMP;1 5-JAN-2000 01:00:30.64 5-JAN-2000 01:01:30.64 [SYSTEM] > > Total of 5 files. > $ purge/keep=2/by_own=[1,1]/log pt.tmp > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]PT.TMP;3 deleted (0 blocks) > $ directory/own/date=(cre,mod) pt.tmp;* > > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] > > PT.TMP;5 1-JAN-2000 01:00:31.11 1-JAN-2000 01:01:31.11 [SYSTEM] > PT.TMP;4 2-JAN-2000 01:00:30.99 2-JAN-2000 01:01:30.99 [1,1] > PT.TMP;2 4-JAN-2000 01:00:30.78 4-JAN-2000 01:01:30.78 [SYSTEM] > PT.TMP;1 5-JAN-2000 01:00:30.64 5-JAN-2000 01:01:30.64 [SYSTEM] > > Total of 4 files. See? There's too little whitespace. It clutters the visual field of the mind and makes concentrating all that more difficult. Highly unreadable. You may as well try reading AUTOGEN.COM or STARTUP.COM. To repeat the previous sentence in ITRC format: YoumayaswelltryreadingAUTOGEN.COMorSTARTUP.COM. ;-) At least here it's in a fixed-width font (I'm writing this reply in Wordpad and will paste it into the Google Groups too-small input window.) And why both the creation and modification dates? Ugh. > I have tested this on 7.2-2, 7.3-2 and 8.3, they all show this > behavior. Including reproducer as attachment. > > I think I have narrowed the conditions necessary to exhibit bug. > > Some definitions: > > Selection set: The set of files that meet the filespec and qualifiers. > > Statement of problem: > > If the highest version of a specific device:[directory]file.type is > not a member of the selection set, and /keep versions > 1, then one > less file is kept than specified by the /keep qualifier. > > Expected cause: from source listings: [V732.DELETE.LIS]PURGE.LIS > (which was more handy than 8.3) > > In routine purge_ods2_files, at line 931 there is a check for a change > in device, directory, name or type. If there is change, then in line > 936 the versions (matching purge selection) is unconditionally set to > 1, i.e. no check is made to see if this meets the requirements of the > common qualifiers. If it isn't the highest version, then the routine > purge_this_file is called. purge_this_file calls DEL$MATCH_FILENAME > which checks if the file matches the selection criteria, and if so > increments the versions seen, and if gtr than the specified /keep > versions, deletes the file. > [...] > > #################################################### > > I believe this was formally reported to HP. I do not know its current > status. Same thing, different color. All the same arguments apply. If you don't like it use /KEEP=2. If you respond, please address my arguments instead of repeating yours. I tried to repeat only the portions of my post you didn't address. OK, maybe I'm just as guilty. I said I can see it both ways. I prefer "my way" and you prefer "your way". When done my way, you need only add 1 to whatever you supply to the /KEEP qualifier when using other qualifiers. With your way I have to go through a lot of pain to delete all versions that match the selection qualifiers except to keep the current version unconditionally. Why do you want to make it so painful for me? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:42:48 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186260168.262934.55250@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Sorry again, but this time for the length of the post. On Aug 4, 12:58 pm, AEF wrote: > On Aug 4, 12:55 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > On Aug 4, 8:50 am, AEF wrote: > > > > On Aug 3, 5:49 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Aug 3, 3:46 pm, AEF wrote: > > > [...] > > > > > > How is it a bug? > > > > > > $ DIR/WID=FILE=15/NOSIZE > > > > > > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] > > > > > > BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 > > > > > BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 > > > > > > Total of 9 files. > > > > > $ > > > > > > What would you expect for > > > > > > A $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 > > > > > B $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=1 > > > > > C $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=2 > > > > > D $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=3 > > > > > For each of those, I would expect that if I did > > > > > $ DIR/BEFORE=16:37:06 > > > > > I would see the same files that PURGE would select for consideration; > > > > > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > > > > BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 > > > > BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 > > > > BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 > > > > BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 > > > > > For your example A & B, I would expect to end up with: > > > > > BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 > > > > BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 > > > > BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 > > > > BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 > > > > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > > > > Hmmm. Since ;5 is before the time given to /BEFORE, and since it is > > > not the highest version, I'd expect it to be deleted. Why would you > > > expect ;5 to remain? > > > Because the command is PURGE, *not* DELETE. Purge is supposed to keep > > the highest (to a maximum of the specified number of) version(s) of > > the *specified* files if any files match the selection criteria. The > > default is the _specified_file(s)_ with the highest version number(s). > > If you want to DELETE the files, then use DELETE. PURGE is *not* > > DELETE. > > I can see it both ways. The advantage of the current way is that you > can delete all files older than a certain time except that the current > version is always kept. How would you do this with your desired > algorithm? > There is *no* advantage to the current action of /keep. It does *not* do what you describe above, as has been demonstrated here and elsewhere --- unless you're allowing the definition of "current version" to fall outside of the list of files that should be selected by the filespec and its qualifiers. > To be more explicit, let's use the example above. Suppose I want to > get rid of all files older than 16:37:07, except to not delete the > current version even if it too is older. I can do > Which do you consider the "current version"?? > $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:07 > By your command, purge should *ignore* all files named BLAH.TMP that are dated *on or since* 16:37:07, as well as all files with any other name that might reside within the current directory. So BLAH.TMP;9 and BLAH.TMP;8 should be completely ignored --- just as a file named BLAH.BLAH and all other files not matching your request should be ignored. That means you are selecting these files for purge to process: BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 By your command, purge should keep the highest version of the selected files, and purge the rest. That leaves BLAH.TMP;7 as the only remaining file that matches your specification. If you do a DIR BLAH.TMP after the purge, you should see: BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 That is, two files that you didn't specify in your purge command, and the "most current" version of the one you did. If you want purge to delete files that don't match your specs & qualifiers, then that's beyond my understanding. > > and versions 7 thru 5 will be deleted. You can't do that with your > desired algorithm. You can counter by saying, well you should use > DELETE. I will! If you want to DELETE files, use the DELETE command. If you want to PURGE files, use the PURGE command. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME COMMAND. (excuse me, I'll try to use my indoor voice from now on;) > Well I can counter by saying suppose I want to do the same > command except using the time 17:00 but be sure the current version is > unconditionally not deleted: > > $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=17 > > Now, all versions satisfy the criterion but the first one is kept. > This way I can freely construct commands like this and be sure that I > always leave the current version intact. There is no way to do this > with the algorithm you prefer without an unreaonable amount of pain. That would work the same as if you didn't use the /before. All existing BLAH.TMP files match your request, so all except the highest will be purged. What are you asking? > If you don't like the current algorithm you can always just add one to > the number you would otherwise supply to the /KEEP qualifier. But if > your algorithm is implemented there is not way, short of writing a > multi-line DCL procedure (or a painful /EXCLUDE qualifier), to do what > I want as described just above. > You'd really accept that? "HELP PURGE /KEEP --- To keep 3 versions of a file, specify /KEEP=4" ?? Sorry, there's something about that that just seems wrong. > Why would I want this? To protect my self from user error. Using > DELETE is riskier. With PURGE I can be assured that I won't > inadvertently delete all versions of a file. > Exactly. > I see it this way: > > $ PURGE ! Delete all but the current version > [of each unique filename.ext in the current directory] Right > $ PURGE/BEFORE=time ! Consider the same versions for deletion as in > PURGE, but delete only the versions that meet the /BEFORE=time > criterion. Wrong. It should consider only the files that the command specifies: those dated /before=time. It should ignore *all* other files regardless of their name, version, age, color, religion, creed, national origin,....(sorry, mind wandered there for a bit.) You are wanting PURGE to act like DELETE --- and, btw, DELETE, DIR, COPY, BACKUP, RENAME,... only consider the files you specify, and I wouldn't want it any other way. > > > > Already we're in disagreement. OK. > > > How unusual;-) > > > There's no way I'm going to quote your entire novella of a post(;-))), > > but I'll try to address some of your confusion. You might have to go > > back and reread your own post to understand some of the points I'm > > addressing. > > > > There are various ways to mix /KEEP and /BEFORE. One could apply / > > > KEEP=n first, mark those n files as keepers, and then delete any > > > others that are timestamped before the specified time t0. That's one > > > way to do it -- method 1. OK. Method 2: The way you appear to favor is > > > that we look at the files that are timestamped as being before time > > > t0, and apply /KEEP=n solely within those. The third way is what VMS > > > does -- method 3. > > > There is no "my way". There is no "mix" of /KEEP and /BEFORE. These > > PURGE qualifiers are precisely explained in the HELP and the Doc's. > > You are fighting those definitions trying to find an explanation that > > fits how the command malfunctions. You are trying to apply the logic > > of the DELETE command to PURGE. PURGE is not DELETE! > > The doc is ambigiuous for /KEEP. I already proved this. I don't think the doc is ambiguous, and I don't find any "proof" in your statements. > > > The /BEFORE qualifier is a FILE SELECTOR. It says select files dated > > before this date. That's the way /BEFORE works in this command and all > > of the other DCL commands where it's used. That is as simple as it > > gets. > > It depends on what you mean by "file". Okay, Bill Clinton;-) > I can have multiple versions of > one file. That use of file means one file. But each version is itself > a "file", but in another sense, which then means multiple files. > Besides, /BEFORE "selects" which versions can be deleted. The > parameter "specifies" which files are to be PURGEd. > No. The parameter specifies which files should be considered by the purge command. Anywhere from zero to many files might be actually purged. Put a * or % wild-card in the file spec someplace and think about how that fits what you say. > > The /KEEP says how many of the SELECTED files should be kept if more > > than that number exist. The default is one. > > That's not what the doc says. The doc says this: > > /KEEP=number-of-versions > Specifies the maximum number of versions of the specified files to be > retained in the directory. If you do not include the /KEEP qualifier, > all but the highest numbered version of the specified files are > deleted from the directory. > Other than the word count and perspective (selected vs specified) how does what I said contradict the doc? It the perspective? Here: the purge command should "select" only the files that you "specify." Clearer? > It's too vague to be of any use. Besides, you specify with the > parameter. The qualifiers select, not specify. > To me, it reads clear and precise. I think you're just refusing to accept it. > Without other qualifiers, this is what /KEEP=n means as I see it: Put > the n highest versions on an exclude list. Delete the others. If there > are fewer than n versions, do nothing. > > That's not the same. > Well, it looks like the same meaning, just worded differently. Your "exclude" list, I would think of more as a count of matching files. > > Purge removes any files > > with version numbers lower than the files you tell it to keep (by spec > > or default, always at least one if at least one file is selected.) It > > says *nothing* about how many files should be purged (deleted, if you > > prefer.) It says how many should be *kept*. That's also as simple as > > it gets. PURGE, by definition, should *always* keep at least ONE of > > the files selected by the file spec > > It's specified, not selected. Perspective. We specify; PURGE selects files based upon our specification. PURGE, the actor in that sentence, doesn't specify. > > > and all other file selection > > qualifiers that you provide, if any exist, and it should keep the > > number of files you specify if that many exist. /KEEP means keep, not > > delete. > > And here we disagree. And we will always disagree on this. Um. On what do you disagree here? That /KEEP *doesn't* mean keep??? > > So use /KEEP=2 and you'll get what you want. If the algorithm of PURGE > is changed to what you want it to be then I won't be able to do what I > want without writing a multiline DCL procedure. > I still don't follow this, and I don't find anyplace where you've actually explained it clearly. > > There should be no way for purge to delete every *selected* file. > > That's what DELETE is for, and because DELETE can remove all versions > > of files, it requires a more precise file spec. Again, PURGE is not > > DELETE. > > But commands like DELETE/BEFORE='time' risk the deletion of all > versions of a file. So I can't use DELETE without having to look at > the version number(s) I wish to keep and putting it(them) in the > exclude qualifier, which would only work if only one file is > specified. If multiple files are specified then I don't think you > could do it even with /EXCLUDE without explicitly typing out the full > name, type, and version number of each and every version I want to > keep (because there's no sticky-default action with /EXCLUDE!). What a > pain! It's much easier to use /KEEP=2 if you want to do it your way. > Sorry. Don't follow that at all. > > > > I guess I can only keep repeating what the documentation says, because > > that's the way it *should* work. But, that's not the way it works. > > > In reading everything you've written, I see you struggling. Your > > attempted "simplifications" show you are fighting the fact that the > > way PURGE works is not the way it was intended to work. PURGE is *NOT* > > DELETE. If you read the HELP and the doc's again, keeping that fact in > > mind, I think you'll see that the explanations are clear and precise. > > I'm struggling because I find it difficult to put my thoughts into > words. And I'm trying to be precise and explicit because words such as > earlier, older, file, version, etc. are not precise enough. I'm also > hoping that some variation of my explanation will make my point of > view clear to you. > Sorry. I haven't gotten it yet. > No, the doc is not clear and precise. If I just told you to get me a > maximum of three apples, how many will you bring? That's precise? "Oh, > get me anywhere from zero to three apples, okay?" That's what the > description of /KEEP is saying. > To completely satisfy the command: "Bring me a maximum of three apples, peon" "Yes, Sire, oh Gracious One. I am forever your humble servant." (bow, bow, bow, turn, leave room, run to the larder) If there are three or more apples I would bring you three apples. If there are fewer than three apples, I would bring you however many there are. That means that if there are no apples, I couldn't bring you any, but I would never bring you more than the three (MAX) that you requested. Bringing fewer than 3, though, might cost me my head so I'd probably pop out to the grocer and resupply the larder. I don't think the PURGE command should do that, however. ;-) > > > > In the ITRC discussion, Jon Pinkley demonstrated that the bug is not > > limited to the /BEFORE qualifier. I hope he doesn't mind if I quote > > some of his post here: > > > ######################################################## > > > > [...] > > This discussion has convinced me that the behavior should be as you > > describe, since the "selected files" should be the set of files > > selected by the filespec and the qualifiers. The bug in purge is not > > limited to /before as is demonstrated by the following: > > > $ show system/noproc ! not portable ... > > OpenVMS V8.3 on node SIGMA 23-FEB-2007 22:23:30.28 Uptime 1 00:56:43 > > $ analyze/image/select=(id,link) sys$system:delete.exe; ! not portable > > SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]DELETE.EXE;1 > > "X-05" > > 29-JUN-2006 18:18:42.45 > > $ directory/own/date=(cre,mod) pt.tmp;* > > > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] > > > PT.TMP;5 1-JAN-2000 01:00:31.11 1-JAN-2000 01:01:31.11 [SYSTEM] > > PT.TMP;4 2-JAN-2000 01:00:30.99 2-JAN-2000 01:01:30.99 [1,1] > > PT.TMP;3 3-JAN-2000 01:00:30.88 3-JAN-2000 01:01:30.88 [1,1] > > PT.TMP;2 4-JAN-2000 01:00:30.78 4-JAN-2000 01:01:30.78 [SYSTEM] > > PT.TMP;1 5-JAN-2000 01:00:30.64 5-JAN-2000 01:01:30.64 [SYSTEM] > > > Total of 5 files. > > $ purge/keep=2/by_own=[1,1]/log pt.tmp > > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]PT.TMP;3 deleted (0 blocks) > > $ directory/own/date=(cre,mod) pt.tmp;* > > > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] > > > PT.TMP;5 1-JAN-2000 01:00:31.11 1-JAN-2000 01:01:31.11 [SYSTEM] > > PT.TMP;4 2-JAN-2000 01:00:30.99 2-JAN-2000 01:01:30.99 [1,1] > > PT.TMP;2 4-JAN-2000 01:00:30.78 4-JAN-2000 01:01:30.78 [SYSTEM] > > PT.TMP;1 5-JAN-2000 01:00:30.64 5-JAN-2000 01:01:30.64 [SYSTEM] > > > Total of 4 files. > > See? There's too little whitespace. It clutters the visual field of > the mind and makes concentrating all that more difficult. Highly > unreadable. In Google, there is an option to switch to fixed font. Click on Options up in the colored title bar and you should find it. I hope that helps. I found that by accident one day. > You may as well try reading AUTOGEN.COM or STARTUP.COM. To > repeat the previous sentence in ITRC format: > YoumayaswelltryreadingAUTOGEN.COMorSTARTUP.COM. ;-) At least here it's > in a fixed-width font (I'm writing this reply in Wordpad and will > paste it into the Google Groups too-small input window.) And why both > the creation and modification dates? Ugh. > > > I have tested this on 7.2-2, 7.3-2 and 8.3, they all show this > > behavior. Including reproducer as attachment. > > > I think I have narrowed the conditions necessary to exhibit bug. > > > Some definitions: > > > Selection set: The set of files that meet the filespec and qualifiers. > > > Statement of problem: > > > If the highest version of a specific device:[directory]file.type is > > not a member of the selection set, and /keep versions > 1, then one > > less file is kept than specified by the /keep qualifier. > > > Expected cause: from source listings: [V732.DELETE.LIS]PURGE.LIS > > (which was more handy than 8.3) > > > In routine purge_ods2_files, at line 931 there is a check for a change > > in device, directory, name or type. If there is change, then in line > > 936 the versions (matching purge selection) is unconditionally set to > > 1, i.e. no check is made to see if this meets the requirements of the > > common qualifiers. If it isn't the highest version, then the routine > > purge_this_file is called. purge_this_file calls DEL$MATCH_FILENAME > > which checks if the file matches the selection criteria, and if so > > increments the versions seen, and if gtr than the specified /keep > > versions, deletes the file. > > [...] > > > > #################################################### > > > I believe this was formally reported to HP. I do not know its current > > status. > > Same thing, different color. All the same arguments apply. If you > don't like it use /KEEP=2. > ??????? Read it again. Hopefully the fixed font option helped. He *did* say / KEEP=2 and it only kept ONE! My friend, that's a bug whether you accept it or not. > If you respond, please address my arguments instead of repeating > yours. I tried to repeat only the portions of my post you didn't > address. OK, maybe I'm just as guilty. I've tried. I hope we can still be friends 'cause I doubt anyone else is going to speak to us after all of these long posts we seem to generate:-) > > I said I can see it both ways. I prefer "my way" and you prefer "your > way". When done my way, you need only add 1 to whatever you supply to > the /KEEP qualifier when using other qualifiers. With your way I have > to go through a lot of pain to delete all versions that match the > selection qualifiers except to keep the current version > unconditionally. Why do you want to make it so painful for me? > I don't want to do anything other than have a command work the way it says it should. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:05:37 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Message-ID: ed_lin wrote: > Hi, > > I have a simple script running perl 5 alpha vms 7.2, I never succeed > in creating any smbol thru perl system command. What did I do wrong? > Appreciate if anyone can share some idea. (the exe is a cobol binary > which needs to accept command line argument, that's why I need to > create a symbol like this..) > > #!/usr/bin/perl > system("ED_PROG :== $WSUSER1:[CSM.ED_COBOL]NEW_LOT_ALI.EXE"); > > # I suspect the $ needs to be scaped, actually I couldn't even create > any symbol no matter how simple it is. Yes, the $ needs either to be escaped, or you need to use single quotes, but that is not your problem. > system("EASY_ONE :== show time"); > > # Both gave me symbol undefine message if I tried to execute the > script. That is the expected behavior. The symbol that you created only exists for the subprocess created by the system command. Global scoping of symbols is only passed up in nested DCL command procedures, which unlink UNIX are not run in separate processes. If you set up a foreign command symbol before starting Perl, it will be visible and usable for subprocesses. Or you can have Perl call a DCL script that sets up the foreign command and then runs your image. And finally you can just pass the image name including path to Perl along with the parameters, and Perl will use the MCR partial CLI to run it with parameters. > fyi: I also post same message in Yahoo group. Which Yahoo group? I was not aware of any specifically for discussing VMS. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:33:18 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Message-ID: In article <1186247198.258201.124460@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ed_lin wrote: > Hi, > > I have a simple script running perl 5 alpha vms 7.2, I never succeed > in creating any smbol thru perl system command. What did I do wrong? > Appreciate if anyone can share some idea. (the exe is a cobol binary > which needs to accept command line argument, that's why I need to > create a symbol like this..) > > #!/usr/bin/perl > system("ED_PROG :== $WSUSER1:[CSM.ED_COBOL]NEW_LOT_ALI.EXE"); > > # I suspect the $ needs to be scaped, actually I couldn't even create > any symbol no matter how simple it is. > > system("EASY_ONE :== show time"); > > # Both gave me symbol undefine message if I tried to execute the > script. I think you are only defining a symbol in the context of the child process, not the parent. If you want to manipulate DCL symbols from Perl, I'd recommend the DCLsym module, which has been included in the core Perl distribution for many years. $ perl -"MVMS::DCLsym" -e - _$ "$h=new VMS::DCLsym; $h->setsym('EASYONE', 'show time');" $ easyone 4-AUG-2007 13:32:24 -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 14:43:09 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: How can I create symbol thru Perl "system" command? Message-ID: ed_lin wrote: > I have a simple script running perl 5 alpha vms 7.2, I never succeed > in creating any smbol thru perl system command. What did I do wrong? > Appreciate if anyone can share some idea. (the exe is a cobol binary > which needs to accept command line argument, that's why I need to > create a symbol like this..) > > #!/usr/bin/perl > system("ED_PROG :== $WSUSER1:[CSM.ED_COBOL]NEW_LOT_ALI.EXE"); > > # I suspect the $ needs to be scaped, actually I couldn't even create > any symbol no matter how simple it is. > > system("EASY_ONE :== show time"); > > # Both gave me symbol undefine message if I tried to execute the > script. John nailed the problem -- the context of a system command and its created subprocess goes away when the subprocess exits -- and the resolution here is to use something like the DCLsym module available via CPAN. http://kobesearch.cpan.org/htdocs/perl/VMS/DCLsym.html There are various perl extensions for OpenVMS. You'll also want to look at Automatic Foreign Command mechanism here, and at defining the logical name DCL$PATH. This is a searchlist logical name that allows you to enter the filename -- NEW_LOG_ALI, here -- and use that to excute the image. This assuming that WSUSER1:[CSM.ED_COBOL] is in the searchlist. If you're unfamiliar with symbols and logical names, there's an intro in the OpenVMS FAQ. The FAQ (also) has a pointer to the PerlVMS mailing list (and other resources), if you're working with this particular software pairing. > fyi: I also post same message in Yahoo group. John: "OpenVMS_Friends" is a very quiet and low-traffic group; 11 messages last month. The current thread over there is the usual "future of VMS?" discussion with the most recent posting in the thread being a recent graduate seeking "the future of VISTA language" and of dotNET in India. Kinda like here in c.o.v., but far less traffic and with all the baggage that is Yahoo Groups. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 15:18:30 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: Robert Jarratt wrote: >> The biggest problem I've seen with older CD drives involves media >> incompatibilities. These drives are as old or other than the beginning of >> widespread use of recordable media formats, and these formats can be quite >> difficult for the older drives due to differences in reflectivity. The >> RRD42 has particular problems with some media formulations, but I've seen >> various sorts of media incompatibilities across all of the drives. Newer >> drives tend to have far fewer issues. > > In my case I borrowed an external RRD42 which was able to boot off exactly > the same > CD that I have also tried in the RRD43, so it can't be the media in this > case. To confirm, the same RRD42 drive was tried in two different VAX systems, and the bootstrap from the distro worked in one and not in the other VAX? This could point to termination, or other hardware or configuration issues. I've seen issues with the SCSI cable adapters used on various drives. >> I've seen any number of SCSI issues over the years, whether due to bus >> under- or over-termination, addressing collisions, over-long buses, or bad >> cables or other such. > > This is perhaps an avenue for investigation, although the RRD43 is an > internal drive and I just > removed one of the tiny internal disks and plugged the RRD43 in its place. > The drive will read > media when installed in this way once VMS is running, but the machine will > not boot off it. Would you mind posting details of the boot command used, and the boot-time error received, and what devices and SCSI cable adapters are in use on the SCSI bus on the particular VAX box? A console SHOW command will generally be able to display the bus: SHOW CONFIG, SHOW DEVICE, or SHOW SCSI, usually. > I'll check > the termination jumpers, but if the drive works under VMS then surely there > can't be a termination/cabling > issue, or can there? Yes, there can. This is SCSI. There is always room for error. There is always room for flaky problems. (It's pronounced "scuzzy" and not as "sexy" for a reason, after all. :-) ) >> If a CD installation kit is available, what I generally end up doing in >> this case is BACKUP /IMAGE over to a scratch magnetic disk. Then the disk >> is transfered over to the target device, and it can then be booted >> directly, and installed onto (or can upgrade) a disk on the target system. >> I can and do use this approach if there are time constraints with the >> target system, or if I'm upgrading multiple systems, or if I'm using a >> low-speed CD drive -- life is just too short to use an RRD42, or most any >> other CD drive less than 8x for that matter. > > I used the BACKUP/IMAGE method you suggest, but I'd still like a bootable > CD drive so I don't have to rely on one machine working to get another one > going. Using one VAX to get another going is a common technique, and quite speedy. There's a whole list of drives posted over at the HL site. RRD45 or RRD46 or Plextor CD-R/RW drives are good choices. There's an RRD46 on eBay for US$35, and a number of Plextor SCSI CD and CD-R/RW drives. And BA353 and BA356 disk arrays and the old plastic-encased disk bricks are also widely available. These make swapping disks around very easy. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:00:01 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186250401.853532.289960@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 9:44 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera > > wrote: > > > [snip] > > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth > > > defending. > > > I'll try one more stab at it. > > > Based on previous (-to-9/11) experience, the most likely outcome of a > > hijacking would be that most passengers would live and the plane WOULD > > NOT be flown into a building or similar. > > Under what circumstances would it be appropriate to apply such probability > theories in a situation involving psychotic, suicidal/homicidal criminals intent > upon commiting the gravest of crimes/sins? > > > Since the outcome of fighting > > them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be > > prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack > > the hijackers. > > Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off > again to go commit their heinous acts. > > M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself? > > > People make mistakes. They have heart attacks and strokes. This will > > cause occasional failures. Get used to it. Are you perfect? > > WTF does that have to do with anything? > > > Defending what? Vigilante-ism? > > Duty, courage and honor. Look 'em up if you need to. > > They are used to defend freedom, liberty and the innocent. > > I'll expend no further effort to this pursuit. I'd do better trying to describe > color to someone who was born blind. > > -- > David J Dachtera [...] PLONK! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:05:06 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186250706.402093.45780@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Aug 4, 8:00 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/03/07 20:44, David J Dachtera wrote: > > > AEF wrote: > [snip] > > >> Since the outcome of fighting > >> them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be > >> prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack > >> the hijackers. > > > Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off > > again to go commit their heinous acts. > > > M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself? > > Actually, AEF is *slightly* correct. > > Yes, Islamists had been individually blowing themselves up, and > occasionally (trying to or succeeding in) blowing airplanes and > hijacking planes and ships, pushing the occasional Jewish-American > overboard. > > Before 9/11, though, they had not yet succeeded in trying to use > airplanes as Ohka-like manned cruise missiles. > > HOWEVER!!!! Ramzi Yousef and Al-Qaeda planned to bomb 11 US-bound > airliners in 1995. Lessons learned in that failed plot were used by > the 9/11 planners. Not the same. If you're just going to kill everyone on the plane, why bother with the hijacking? Why not just blow yourself up on the plane? The 9/11 events were unprecedented so there was no reason for anyone on those planes to think anything like that was going to happen. Surely they would fight back if they knew such a thing would happen to them, as happened on the flight that crashed in PA. So basically you're just accusing them of insufficient hindsight -- an inability to read minds and predict the future with near unquestionable accuracy. Since you have this wonderful ability I suggest that you try it out with gambling. I still like your other points in this thread. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > [... same old sig omitted ...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:07:32 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186250852.741043.293800@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 11:18 am, JF Mezei wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: > > You've never found a gun range in a city? > > Don't americans typically use schools as a gun range in the cities ? > > :-) Even as a joke this is beyond unfair and tasteless and smacks of severe bigotry. I'm also sick and tired of your stupid questions that you can easily answer yourself on a test system and your stupid all-mighty MicroVAX II. SUPER PLONK! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:21:15 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186251675.259712.236630@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 11:58 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1186143718.001676.23...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Aug 2, 10:02 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1186100760.841524.157...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Aug 2, 4:43 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> >> In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >> >> >In article <1185925991.267428.175...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > >> >> >>On Jul 31, 1:30 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> >> >>> In article <1185761687.729407.239...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 29, 8:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >> >> >>> >> AEF wrote: > >> >> >>> >> > It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to > >> >> >>> >> > destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! > > >[...] > > >> >> >What ?????????? > >> >> >You obviously know nothing about the IRA. > > >> >> I suppose I had better expand on that. > > >> >> The provisional IRA aimed to force the British out of Northern Ireland and > >> >> to setup a United Ireland. For 30 years they ran a campaign of terror involving > >> >> shootings, car bombings, larger scale bombings often using Semtex, and mortar > >> >> attacks. The majority of attacks took place in Northern Ireland and were > >> >> targetted at British soldiers and installations, Protestant/Loyalist Areas of > >> >> Northern Ireland, perceived collaborators and traitors, and the Loyalist > >> >> Terrorist groups which had sprung up in reaction to the IRA actions eg the UVF > >> >> Probably the most dispicable tactic used was the use of proxy-bombers > >> >> seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb > >> >> where an innocent person's family was kidnapped and threatened in order to > >> >> force them to become a suicide bomber by driving a car packed with high > >> >> explosives at British Army checkpoints or bases. > > >> >> As well as the attacks in Northern Ireland the IRA also launched a long running > >> >> campaign on the mainland of the UK. > > >> >> This involved > > >> >> Attacks on civilian targets > > >> >> eg > > >> >> Railway stations - London Bridge, Docklands, Victoria station, Paddington > >> >> station > > >> >> Airports - Multiple attacks on Heathrow > > >> >> Shops,Shopping centres - Harrods, Oxford street, Arndale centre in Manchester > >> >> etc > > >> >> Pubs - Guildford pub bombing, Sussex Arms Public House in Covent garden, > >> >> Kings head pub woolwich > >> >> etc > > >> >> Bus - M62 coach bombing > > >> >> Economic targets - Bombing of London stock Exchange > >> >> Bishopsgate bombing in the city of London > > >> >> Attacks on Military targets > > >> >> eg > > >> >> Hyde park bombing of Household calvalry killing two calverymen and seven > >> >> horses. > > >> >> Regents Park bandstand bombing which killed seven bansdmen from the Royal Green > >> >> Jackets as they played music to spectators. > > >> >> Attack on Royal Marine base in Deal in Kent resulting in death of ten bandsmen. > > >> >> Attacks on Governement, MPS and Queen's relatives > > >> >> eg > > >> >> Earl Mountbatten the Queen's first cousin killed by IRA bomb. > > >> >> Car bombing of Ian Gow MP > > >> >> Bomb attack on Houses of Parliment. > > >> >> Bomb attack on house of former prime minister Edward Heath. > > >> >> Brighton Hotel Bombing. British Prime Minister and cabinet escape with light > >> >> injuries after the IRA blow up a bomb at the hotel where the conservative > >> >> party are staying for their party conference. Several others > >> >> including Margaret Tebbit wife of Norman Tebbit were left permanently disabled > >> >> The prime minister Margaret Thatcher narrowly escaped death. > > >> >> Mortar attack on Prime Minister and Cabinet at 10 Downing street. > > >> >> The IRA also attacked British army bases and personnel in other parts of the > >> >> world eg Germany. > > >> >> I think that's probably enough for now. > > >> >> David Webb > >> >> Security team leader > >> >> CCSS > >> >> Middlesex University>David Webb > >> >> >Security team leader > >> >> >CCSS > >> >> >Middlesex University > > >> >> >>> David Webb > >> >> >>> Security team leader > >> >> >>> CCSS > >> >> >>> Middlesex University > > >> >> >>[...] > > >> >> >>AEF > > >> >OK, they did a fair amount of terrorism. But let's look at another > >> >aspect of recent Jewish/Israeli history: > > >> >Were Britons the victims of a Holocaust? > > >> Come on - the holocaust was a tragic event which noone should forget since > >> it should never be allowed to happen again. However it was 50 years ago and > >> cannot be used as an excuse for Israels treatment of the palestinians. > >> The holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis and was the culmination of centuries > >> of christian persecution of the Jews. The palestinians and Muslims had nothing > >> to do with the holocaust. > > >I didn't mean to imply that they were. Of course the Arabs/Muslims had > >nothing to do with the Holocaust. I'm just saying that this was part > >of Israelis' mind set about other peoples trying to destroy them. I'm > >using this to show why it's quite reasonable for Israelis and Jews to > >take threats of annihilation seriously and that I don't think anyone > >ever tried to demolish Northern Ireland. People always talk about > >Russia being understandably paranoid about invaders. Why not here? > >(OK, I'm sure there are differences with this, too. Just something to > >consider.) > > I don't exactly know what you mean by "demolish Northern Ireland". Look up demolish in the dictionary. > Northern Ireland was the result of the earlier partitioning of the island of > Ireland into the Irish Free state and the six-counties. Both protestant > loyalists (the majority in Northern Ireland) and catholic nationalists (the > minority in northern ireland but the majority in the whole island) lived there > together. Due to undoubted discrimination by the protestants in northern > ireland against the nationalists hardline groups like the IRA gained support > for their plans to use force to remove the six counties from the United Kingdom > and to form a united ireland. To this end the IRA targetted the protestant > community in northern ireland and targetted government structures there. When > that didn't work they extended their campaign to the UK mainland where they > targetted british citizens and the UK government. > Neither the British Government nor even the Republic wished to demolish > northern ireland. The IRA undoubtedly wished to demolish it in the sense of > making it ungovernable and bringing down any UK or Loyalist governement however > although they suceeded in destroying self-rule in Northern Ireland they were > never strong enough to make Northern Ireland ungovernable or to destroy the > UK government. I believe that was my point. Look, all I remember from hearing news reports is there was some big fuss over a parade in a certain neighborhood and the IRA committed acts of terrorism against the UK and there was some power-sharing agreement worked out at some point. But I do know that the UK never tried to kill all the Catholics in N. Ireland. > As to your other point. The holocaust is pretty much irrelevant. Because of the > way in which Israel was created on land which had belonged to other people for > centuries it was inevitable that there would be violence. Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand me? I said the holocaust made the Israelis skeptical of announced goals of the destruction of Israel to be merely posturing. Is this coming across in Klingonese? > The partitioning of Pakistan and India shortly before the establishment of > Israel graphically indicated the likely results as far as internal violence was > concerned. In Israels case it's Arab neighbours were almost bound to react in > they way they did - after all the Arab league and Arab higher comittee had > rejected the partition plan at the UN. Hence after such a traumatic birth it > isn't surprising that the Israelis would be fearful of their neighbours. > > >> >Did Ireland attack and nearly destroy Britain on its first day of > >> >existence as the Arab's and P's tried to do to Israel on its first > >> >day? > > >> The UK citizens of Northern Ireland did not suddenly find that the UN had > >> arbitrarily decided to give the land they have lived on for the past thousand > >> years to foreign refugees from around the world. > >> How would you have reacted if the UN did the same to your home ? > > >It was only about half of the land. And the P's never had a sovereign > >nation there. It was under British mandate at the time, no? > > Palestine was under Arab caliphate rule from 638 - 1099 ad. > It was under Crusader rule from 1099-1187 ad. > Saladin and his descendents then ruled but allowed the crusaders to stay in > Palestine. For a period of ten years from 1229 the state was handed back to > the crusaders under the rule of Frederick II. > > It was then under the rule of the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt from 1270 - 1516 ad > Finally the ottoman turks took over in 1516 and ruled until 1917. > > Following the first world war the British and French carved up the ottoman > empire and created the nations of the Middle East pretty much as they are > today. The British Mandate of palestine was just another one of these regions. > Arabs had been living in Palestine since the Arab caliphate as far as they were > concerned it was their land irrespective of whether they were citizens of the > ottoman empire or under the rule of the British Mandate. So Jews were there, too. So what? The question is: "What would have happened if the Arabs accepted the partition plan?" > > > > >> >Did Ireland nearly destroy Britain again like the Arabs (and P's?) > >> >nearly did in 1967? (Saved only by a miraculous air strike on the > >> >Egyptian Air Force). > > >> If the UK citizens of Northern Ireland had been forced to flee to refugee camps > >> in mainland Britain because the UN had forcibly setup a foreign nation on part > >> of the territory of northern Ireland then I am pretty certain that both > >> Britain and the Irish republic would have invaded that new nation. > > >They had to flee only because the Arabs attacked on day 1. > > There was also internal violence similar, though on a smaller scale, to that > between Hindus and Muslims at the partition of India and Pakistan. They wouldn't have had to flee if the Arabs didn't start a war of annihilation against the new state. > The Arabs attacking was inevitable because only the Jewish community accepted > the partition plan. When the British government decided to withdraw from the > Mandate of Palestine in 1947 and hand over to the UN they stated that they > had been unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both parties. The UN had > no better luck in finding a solution before the Mandate expired on May 14 1948. So if you lose in court it's okay to just murder your opponents? Hey, you were trying to draw parallels and your own words here show even more my point that the situations are not analogous. > > David Webb [...] AEF P.S. This is getting very time-consuming. I'll try to respond as I can. I've already burned too much time on the PURGE/KEEP/BEFORE debate! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:30:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 08/04/07 13:05, AEF wrote: > On Aug 4, 8:00 am, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 08/03/07 20:44, David J Dachtera wrote: >> >>> AEF wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>> Since the outcome of fighting >>>> them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be >>>> prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack >>>> the hijackers. >>> Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off >>> again to go commit their heinous acts. >>> M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself? >> Actually, AEF is *slightly* correct. >> >> Yes, Islamists had been individually blowing themselves up, and >> occasionally (trying to or succeeding in) blowing airplanes and >> hijacking planes and ships, pushing the occasional Jewish-American >> overboard. >> >> Before 9/11, though, they had not yet succeeded in trying to use >> airplanes as Ohka-like manned cruise missiles. >> >> HOWEVER!!!! Ramzi Yousef and Al-Qaeda planned to bomb 11 US-bound >> airliners in 1995. Lessons learned in that failed plot were used by >> the 9/11 planners. > > Not the same. If you're just going to kill everyone on the plane, why > bother with the hijacking? Why not just blow yourself up on the plane? Because you can do more damage by killing yourself and the passengers while flying the "guided missile" into a big, fat, populated, important target. > The 9/11 events were unprecedented so there was no reason for anyone > on those planes to think anything like that was going to happen. > > Surely they would fight back if they knew such a thing would happen to > them, as happened on the flight that crashed in PA. So basically > you're just accusing them of insufficient hindsight -- an inability to > read minds and predict the future with near unquestionable accuracy. > Since you have this wonderful ability I suggest that you try it out > with gambling. Your point is, "They aren't going to kill (most of*) us, so we'll just sit back and allow ourselves to be hijacked and maybe only a few of us killed/raped/slashed/etc". What a fscking ... well, I can't say that word in a public forum. * Google for /Leon Klinghoffer/. > I still like your other points in this thread. > >> -- >> Ron Johnson, Jr. >> Jefferson LA USA >> > [... same old sig omitted ...] > > AEF > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:34:53 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote using: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > The FLOWED option does leave the formatting to the reader/client, however, > even the most ancient newsreader I can think of handled flowed text, and as > you point out, it is nothing for a GUI reader. That is because flowed text was sent with lines actually wrapped at about 76 characters. So it behaves as expected on most news and e-mail clients, including terminal based ones. Where it mis-behaves is on Mozilla and Thunderbird, where it violates What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get. Mozilla does not allow you to turn off the format-flowed through a setup option. Advanced users can hack the scripts inside of Mozilla to do this. When composing a plain-text format-flowed message, Mozilla wraps the lines at 76 characters for the composer. So the composer does not see how their text is going to look at the other end. Particularly if they are also manually wrapping some lines. There is no way for a composer on Mozilla to determine by just looking at it if the lines are wrapping because of manual formatting or by auto wrapping. Bug reports on these issues have had several birthdays with out any resolution. Mozilla is also not handling wrapping properly on quoting some messages. I do not know if there is a bug open on that one. Based on that almost the only activity on the other bugs that I have files is other people seeing them on other platforms, it does not appear to be worth the effort to file any more bugs. > However, these tags are in the MIME header, not the basic e-mail. That means > whatever reader has is being used must know how to decode the Mime headers > for plain text. No it should not unless something in the sending system is set up wrong. MIME is an extension that is supposed to be backwards compatible with the oldest mail and news reader. The older mail and news readers may not be able to handle content that is MIME encoded, but the plain-text part of the message should still be following the same old rules/guidelines as before. MIME content shows up on the text based mail and news readers as a mess. Where it really shows up as a mess is with people who get the digest version of a mailing list, because it typically shows up as two to three screen full of garbage in in the middle of a series of messages. The info-vax mailing list is one of those with a digest mode. Other mailing lists have solved this issue by putting in a MIME stripper program. It simply removes all MIME content. On some lists, plain text attachments for submitted patches are the only allowed MIME content. In general on a technical mailing lists, having MIME content in the message is usually a 90% indicator that the message is spam or a virus, and a 8% indicator that this is the first exposure of a user to usenet, and a 1% indication of an accidental mis-setup of the mail/news program on the sending side. > And it is very common indeed to not insert linefeeds at the > end of each sentence, but rather at the end of each paragraph in text/plain. That is a function of the client at either composition time or at display time, and does not need to or should reflect how the message was sent over the wire. > Some web browsers have trouble with that as well, refusing to do their > display job and appropriately wrap the text. One of your favorites has the > issue in versions before 7 in fact... If you would follow usenet conventions and intersperse your comments below quoted text of what you are commenting on, then I might have some idea of what you are referring to. As it is, what you are doing is top-posting, which is not the general convention of this news-group / mailing list, or any of the other technical newsgroups or mailing lists that I subscribe to. It took a few years to get Kerry to stop top posting though as I recall. The default configuration of Outlook at his place of employment is to set it up for top posting, and not easy to flip it back and forth between what the company wants and what is normal for news groups and mailing lists. In those cases, it is just simpler to just use the corporate supplied e-mail program for just company e-mail and use a different mail/news client that is configured for usenet and mailing list conventions for all else. The OpenVMS FAQ has a section on netiquette and some links to some long articles. > Is the Content-transfer-encoding header coming across > as 7bit or quoted-printable? 7bit allows CRLF to be embeded > and used only at the end of a line of course. The two paragraphs > above are not wrapped by hand, while this and the next paragraph > are. Looking at the source to the message, shows that all the lines from your post are properly wrapped, except for the Path: header line, which is normally not displayed. The text that that you did not manually wrap are 75 characters wide, and as such suitable for all news/mail readers. The text that you manually is shorter, and likewise suitable. Of course, I do not know if the mail to news gateway changed anything, only a mailing list subscriber could tell that. quoted printable shows up on older mail/news clients as having a bunch of "=" signs at the ends of lines that are longer than about 76 characters. It also replaces some characters with an = sign and two HEX characters, in most cases characters that do not need to be replaced, or occasionally replacing single quote characters with some other code in the specified character set. Some mail/news clients will only go into quoted printable mode when the composer types in a character that requires it. According to posts by Robert Deiningner, Outlook (not Outlook Express) is stuck in always sending quoted printable when you request plain text, and he is looking for a solution, other than the obvious one of just using a different program. > So this should appear as two lines with a two pairs > of CRLF endings between it and the last paragraph. What I am > beginning to suspect is that to make a few people happy here, > we will have to manually wrap messages, which is a real PITA. Mail and news clients that are sending plain text (or close to it) should be wrapping the lines at about 76 characters in the messages they send over the wire. That appears to be the default for Microsoft Outlook and other programs that I have used. In Outlook, it is under Tools=>Options=>[Mail Format tab][Internet Format...] under Plain text options. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 15:37:26 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news reader Message-ID: <000301c7d6d7$450581d0$cf108570$@com> > If you would follow usenet conventions and intersperse your comments > below quoted text of what you are commenting on, then I might have some > idea of what you are referring to. As it is, what you are doing is > top-posting, which is not the general convention of this news-group / > mailing list, or any of the other technical newsgroups or mailing lists > that I subscribe to. > That is because it is not a "Usenet Convention" issue. In plain simple fact, it is not even a Usenet tradition, it is something that a few newsgroup advocate because of membership, and politeness, not convention, is the reason to do it. Besides which, some of us remember both Bitnet lists (which is more the "convention" I am from) and also the costs of transporting newsgroups around using 1200bps modems -considered *fast* in their day. I even ran a public access UNIX system for years pulling usenet traffic off the systems at Rutgers. And, most "Usenet" traffic these days is read with e-mail programs, not newsreaders, which is a whole different ball of wax. A very great deal of the *technical* newsgroups have always been on Bitnet or other mail related systems, because news servers or access to news servers is not allowed in many places. Email almost always is. > It took a few years to get Kerry to stop top posting though as I > recall. > The default configuration of Outlook at his place of employment is to > set it up for top posting, and not easy to flip it back and forth > between what the company wants and what is normal for news groups and > mailing lists. > Again, Top Posting is not only *normal* for many mailing lists, it is *encouraged*. And has been for over 35 years. It makes a lot of sense actually, and it leaves a good record of the entire conversation. Please remember, it is not some gosh awful sanctioned Usenet Standard that determines the way it is appropriate to post here - it is ---> politeness <----. It could just as well be argued that it would be more polite for the people complaining to use different software capable of handling the postings to their satisfaction. It really kind of irks me when people complain, even offhandedly about Kerry. Kerry often posts really good opinions and information. He is helpful, kind, and polite. If the folks doing the complaining had better sense, they would appreciate what he does rather than complain about his posting in a manner acceptable and encouraged in many, perhaps most, other places. If y'all want to fuss at me - go right ahead. I am not making money from VMS or HP yet, though I am working hard at it. I've only got a few weeks time and a few thousand dollars invested in it. I'm also an adopted Texas boy and have really thick skin. But you should lay off people like Kerry just because of the way he posts. Instead be damned glad he takes the time to post! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 16:08:26 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader Message-ID: On 08/04/07 15:37, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> If you would follow usenet conventions and intersperse your comments >> below quoted text of what you are commenting on, then I might have some >> idea of what you are referring to. As it is, what you are doing is >> top-posting, which is not the general convention of this news-group / >> mailing list, or any of the other technical newsgroups or mailing lists >> that I subscribe to. >> > > That is because it is not a "Usenet Convention" issue. In plain simple fact, > it is not even a Usenet tradition, it is something that a few newsgroup > advocate because of membership, and politeness, not convention, is the > reason to do it. We must have run in different technical newsgroups, then. > Besides which, some of us remember both Bitnet lists (which is more the > "convention" I am from) and also the costs of transporting newsgroups around > using 1200bps modems -considered *fast* in their day. I even ran a public > access UNIX system for years pulling usenet traffic off the systems at > Rutgers. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:31:42 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader Message-ID: <3e7f2$46b51a75$cef8887a$1490@TEKSAVVY.COM> Paul Raulerson wrote: >> Again, Top Posting is not only *normal* for many mailing lists, it is > *encouraged*. And has been for over 35 years. It makes a lot of sense > actually, and it leaves a good record of the entire conversation. I obviously live in a very different universe. Where I live, the internet, before windows started to mess with its opposite defaults, was always: CR-LF after EACH line. Always quote only what is necessary at the top and follow with your additional comments at the bottom. There were very good reasons for this. What I have noticed with Windows pollution is that people don't even know about all the tons of megabytes of crap they are appending after their 2 lines of comments because it is at the bottom and they don't realise all the crap that they really should be cutting out. And of course, one has no idea to which paragraph within all the megabytes of quoted text the poster refers to with his 2 lines of text. Oh and yeah, the convention was that almost always, your own contributions had to be more lines than the amount of quoted text. But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of you so it may be quite different in your universe. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:00:51 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader Message-ID: <8j9ti.1050$Zk5.780@newsfe23.lga> On 08/04/07 19:31, JF Mezei wrote: > Paul Raulerson wrote: >>> Again, Top Posting is not only *normal* for many mailing lists, it is >> *encouraged*. And has been for over 35 years. It makes a lot of sense >> actually, and it leaves a good record of the entire conversation. > > I obviously live in a very different universe. Where I live, the > internet, before windows started to mess with its opposite defaults, was > always: > > CR-LF after EACH line. > Always quote only what is necessary at the top and follow with your > additional comments at the bottom. There were very good reasons for this. > > > > What I have noticed with Windows pollution is that people don't even > know about all the tons of megabytes of crap they are appending after > their 2 lines of comments because it is at the bottom and they don't > realise all the crap that they really should be cutting out. And of > course, one has no idea to which paragraph within all the megabytes of > quoted text the poster refers to with his 2 lines of text. > > Oh and yeah, the convention was that almost always, your own > contributions had to be more lines than the amount of quoted text. > > But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of you so it > may be quite different in your universe. You and I live in the same universe. Except that you're Canadian. Help America Fight The Canadians! Everyone hates Canadians. You surrender pronto, or we'll level Toronto. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 22:19:46 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news reader Message-ID: <001201c7d70f$79e17b10$6da47130$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:32 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> Again, Top Posting is not only *normal* for many mailing lists, it > is > > *encouraged*. And has been for over 35 years. It makes a lot of sense > > actually, and it leaves a good record of the entire conversation. > > I obviously live in a very different universe. Where I live, the > internet, before windows started to mess with its opposite defaults, > was > always: > > CR-LF after EACH line. > Always quote only what is necessary at the top and follow with your > additional comments at the bottom. There were very good reasons for > this. > I'm unaware of any system that uses CR/LF conventions other than Dos/Windows, unless VMS is doing so. Most large systems use record formats, or LF conventions. Or X'25' if you happen to be in EBCDIC. I've never looked to see what VMS is using for text files, but if it is CRLF, then I can see your point. Adding more than you quote is reasonable, and still conventional in many places; I wish it were the convention here to be honest, but I am a newcomer and will tend to comply as far as reasonable. And when I say "top post" what I am really saying is close to what you describe - extract a quote and post, unless of course, you are writing an essay that applies to the entire message or a thread. Then just top post and leave the rest for reference. I really do not like quoting stuff like this in the middle of a message. and putting in a [snip] when you remove a lot of text is also often considered polite. The problem of course, being that some people will selectively edit things. In which cases, repeating the entire post is a better idea. > > But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of you so it > may be quite different in your universe. Of course we do, technologically speaking as we as politically. VMS "culture" is quite different from UNIX or Mainframe cultures - VMS and the Alpha *and* Itanium platforms are very *very* good - and yet lacks some things that to me are simply incomprehensible, or more likely, those things are implemented in a way that I don't quickly recognize. HP is that way too - DSPP membership does not give you online access to technical support resources. Do you know how utterly crazy it is for HP to let you *search* the ITRC (?) database, see a list of relevant hits on the search criteria, and yet NOT LET YOU ACCESS THEM? Does the work "insane" begin to apply here? Aw well... different strokes different folks. You would go nuts in the world I inhabit most likely. :) -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 12:56:35 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <000c01c7d6c0$ccd8e5a0$668ab0e0$@com> The FLOWED option does leave the formatting to the reader/client, however, even the most ancient newsreader I can think of handled flowed text, and as you point out, it is nothing for a GUI reader. However, these tags are in the MIME header, not the basic e-mail. That means whatever reader has is being used must know how to decode the Mime headers for plain text. And it is very common indeed to not insert linefeeds at the end of each sentence, but rather at the end of each paragraph in text/plain. Some web browsers have trouble with that as well, refusing to do their display job and appropriately wrap the text. One of your favorites has the issue in versions before 7 in fact... Is the Content-transfer-encoding header coming across as 7bit or quoted-printable? 7bit allows CRLF to be embeded and used only at the end of a line of course. The two paragraphs above are not wrapped by hand, while this and the next paragraph are. So this should appear as two lines with a two pairs of CRLF endings between it and the last paragraph. What I am beginning to suspect is that to make a few people happy here, we will have to manually wrap messages, which is a real PITA. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:13 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > > Linux Thunderbird in nntp mode does properly wrap your 02 Aug 2007 > 14:17:47 +0000 post. Because it's quoted-printable, though, it > wraps at "window width", not at column 72/76/whatever. Not a > problem for a GUI user, just a comment. > > However... *Something* is causing some paragraphs in posts by > users-of-Outlook to be strung out in one long continuous line. If > the problem isn't "Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable", > then it might be: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Whatever the cause, 75% of our computing problems (except Info-VAX > threading) would be solved if people stopped using MSFT products, > and another 20% if people who don't enjoy computers would stop using > them. > > > On 08/03/07 20:19, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from > a > > blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what? > It > > formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same > under > > Firefox. > > > > Could it be you are using an ancient version or something? > > -Paul > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > >> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:42 PM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > >> > >> Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>> For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does > *not* > >>> format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it > >> using tin > >>> on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues. > >> BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most > >> definitely > >> did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one > line > >> and > >> finished at the beginning of another. > >> > >> Zane > > > > > > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:33:00 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: It appears that your reply was auto-wrapped by your client. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 08/04/07 12:56, Paul Raulerson wrote: > The FLOWED option does leave the formatting to the reader/client, however, > even the most ancient newsreader I can think of handled flowed text, and as > you point out, it is nothing for a GUI reader. > > However, these tags are in the MIME header, not the basic e-mail. That means > whatever reader has is being used must know how to decode the Mime headers > for plain text. And it is very common indeed to not insert linefeeds at the > end of each sentence, but rather at the end of each paragraph in text/plain. > Some web browsers have trouble with that as well, refusing to do their > display job and appropriately wrap the text. One of your favorites has the > issue in versions before 7 in fact... > > Is the Content-transfer-encoding header coming across > as 7bit or quoted-printable? 7bit allows CRLF to be embeded > and used only at the end of a line of course. The two paragraphs > above are not wrapped by hand, while this and the next paragraph > are. > > So this should appear as two lines with a two pairs > of CRLF endings between it and the last paragraph. What I am > beginning to suspect is that to make a few people happy here, > we will have to manually wrap messages, which is a real PITA. > > -Paul > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:13 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? >> >> >> Linux Thunderbird in nntp mode does properly wrap your 02 Aug 2007 >> 14:17:47 +0000 post. Because it's quoted-printable, though, it >> wraps at "window width", not at column 72/76/whatever. Not a >> problem for a GUI user, just a comment. >> >> However... *Something* is causing some paragraphs in posts by >> users-of-Outlook to be strung out in one long continuous line. If >> the problem isn't "Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable", >> then it might be: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed >> >> Whatever the cause, 75% of our computing problems (except Info-VAX >> threading) would be solved if people stopped using MSFT products, >> and another 20% if people who don't enjoy computers would stop using >> them. >> >> >> On 08/03/07 20:19, Paul Raulerson wrote: >>> I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from >> a >>> blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what? >> It >>> formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same >> under >>> Firefox. >>> >>> Could it be you are using an ancient version or something? >>> -Paul >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:42 PM >>>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? >>>> >>>> Paul Raulerson wrote: >>>>> For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does >> *not* >>>>> format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it >>>> using tin >>>>> on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues. >>>> BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most >>>> definitely >>>> did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one >> line >>>> and >>>> finished at the beginning of another. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.425 ************************