INFO-VAX Wed, 22 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 459 Contents: Re: Any filename problems going from VAX/ODS-2 to Alpha/ODS-5/case blind? Re: Any filename problems going from VAX/ODS-2 to Alpha/ODS-5/case blind? blind? Re: EMACS [was: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas] Re: EMACS [was: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas] geek entertainment Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Looking for SEDT source code Re: Looking for SEDT source code Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) a hoax Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Unicenter System Watchdog for OpenVMS I64 r2.5 Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application VMSTAR Re: VMSTAR Re: VMSTAR Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:08:17 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Any filename problems going from VAX/ODS-2 to Alpha/ODS-5/case blind? Message-ID: <1187719697.709630.3340@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Aug 20, 10:32 am, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > > > AEF wrote: > > > That's why you should always use F$PARSE (or its system services > > > equivalent) whenever possible. > > Well, duh. > I didn't mean *you* in particular. I meant "you" as in "one" as in the general reader or programmer. Perhaps you thought I meant the former. [...] > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:39:45 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Any filename problems going from VAX/ODS-2 to Alpha/ODS-5/case blind? blind? Message-ID: AEF wrote: > On Aug 20, 10:06 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > >>From: AEF >> >>>> Why stop at V7.2? Of the V7's, I would (and did) pick V7.3-2. V7.2 >>>>barely has ODS5. >> >>>Because I have the 7.2 disk(s) lying around somewhere and no others. >> >> The Hobbyist CD-ROM has V7.3. Later kits are often available if you >>ask for them. >> >> >>>I've got work to do, besides!!! (I have no VAX/Alpha/Integrity boxes >>>at home.) >> >> Everyone needs VMS junk at home. What do you do with your time now? > > > Well, I spend 3 hours a day commuting, for one thing. > Do you drive or ride public transportation? If the later, (or for car-pooling on days you don't drive), how about a laptop with SIMH and an emulated VMS system? > The rest is none of your business. >:-| > > >>>I think I'll go with the test drive option. Will it let me upload my >>>TO.COM via FTP? >> >> FTP and Telnet to a TestDrive system work. There seems to be no >>outbound network access from a TestDrive system. (You may be able to >>get from one to itself or to another one, however. Much useful stuff, >>like SET DISPLAY back to the real world, or wget to fetch something, is >>doomed.) > > > That's fine. I just want to play around with TO.COM on an ODS-5 > volume. > AHA! SIMH-VAX won't do... You need an Alpha or Itanium emulator or a Tadpole or an Itanium laptop... Or HP needs to release OpenVMS-VAX V8.3 (with full ODS-5 support) from the secret lab in the sub-sub-sub- basement at Spit Brook. :-) :-) > >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org >> 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 >> Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 > > > AEF > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 2007 20:47:19 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: EMACS [was: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas] Message-ID: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Rich Alderson > writes: >> Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) > So will MIT TECO EMACS run on top of the teco-c I have running on > my Windoze box, or does it need a real TECO engine from MIT? EMACS (so spelt; "Emacs" = one of the modern Lisp versions) requires an engine that understands the MIT TECO command set. Pete Siemsen was approached[1] about doing that command set for tecoc at the DECUS session where he presented his then brand new baby; it doesn't appear that he ever did one. Biggest issue is that the 36-bitness of the PDP-10 is heavily engrained in the MIT version of TECO, which moved from the PDP-1 to the PDP-6 in 1964. [1] Not by me. I was just standing there when it happened. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:07:04 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: EMACS [was: Free to good home. Microvaxes, Vaxstations, Alphas] Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:47:19 -0700, Rich Alderson = wrote: > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >> In article , Rich Alderson >> writes: > >>> Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (= v. = >>> 170) > >> So will MIT TECO EMACS run on top of the teco-c I have running on >> my Windoze box, or does it need a real TECO engine from MIT? > > EMACS (so spelt; "Emacs" =3D one of the modern Lisp versions) requires= an = > engine > that understands the MIT TECO command set. Pete Siemsen was = > approached[1] > about doing that command set for tecoc at the DECUS session where he = > presented > his then brand new baby; it doesn't appear that he ever did one. > > Biggest issue is that the 36-bitness of the PDP-10 is heavily engraine= d = > in the > MIT version of TECO, which moved from the PDP-1 to the PDP-6 in 1964. > > [1] Not by me. I was just standing there when it happened. > Just to add to the story, Bob Frankston wrote the Primos version of ema= cs in PL/I. It ran marvelously. Stratus also had a version written in PL/= I, = but I don't recall the name of the guy who wrote it. About the same time = there were a couple of other C versions one be Jim Gosling at CMU (later known for = = Java) and a guy whose name I can't remember at CCA (Computer Corporation of Americ= a) -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:14:29 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: geek entertainment Message-ID: <1187752469.932877.311960@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com> This won't appeal to everyone in COV but I know that some of you will get a kick out of it. http://www.nostarch.com/mug.htm Mine just came in today's mail. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:38:51 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187753931.233569.121590@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Here's one for Bob. (hope it makes your head spin) Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why When world-class biblical scholar Bart Ehrman first began to study the texts of the Bible in their original languages he was startled to discover the multitude of mistakes and intentional alterations that had been made by earlier translators. In Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman tells the story behind the mistakes and changes that ancient scribes made to the New Testament and shows the great impact they had upon the Bible we use today. He frames his account with personal reflections on how his study of the Greek manuscripts made him abandon his once ultraconservative views of the Bible. Since the advent of the printing press and the accurate reproduction of texts, most people have assumed that when they read the New Testament they are reading an exact copy of Jesus's words or Saint Paul's writings. And yet, for almost fifteen hundred years these manuscripts were hand copied by scribes who were deeply influenced by the cultural, theological, and political disputes of their day. Both mistakes and intentional changes abound in the surviving manuscripts, making the original words difficult to reconstruct. For the first time, Ehrman reveals where and why these changes were made and how scholars go about reconstructing the original words of the New Testament as closely as possible. Ehrman makes the provocative case that many of our cherished biblical stories and widely held beliefs concerning the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, and the divine origins of the Bible itself stem from both intentional and accidental alterations by scribes -- alterations that dramatically affected all subsequent versions of the Bible. Listen to a 53 minute interview here: http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/archives/2007/072207.html One Oxford bible scholar (John Mill) in 1707 published an in depth 'textual analysis' of more than 100 biblical manuscripts documenting more than 30,000 differences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_analysis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mill Since then, other bible researchers have documented more than 100,000 differences. Example-1, the story of the adulterous woman brought before Jesus is total fiction and doesn't appear in any of the earliest manuscripts. It was added by scribes who knew exactly what they were doing. Example-2, every last page (codex) of the Book of Revelation was missing when St Jerome was working on the Latin Vulgate so he just read a bunch of Greek manuscripts (which were mostly different) and then translated the average meaning back into latin. (so much for all the people who labor over every word in this strange book) Example-3, everyone today loves the King James Version but it appears that this book is based upon a 12th century manuscript that just might have been the worst choice for a bible (but there were not many others available in Western Europe at the time) Food for thought: If the bible is the inspired word of God then why did he allow all these people to mess around with it? Or, from what I can see (I just finished reading the book) he seems to have gone out of his way to make sure we can never get a glimpse of the original text. NSR ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 04:38:09 GMT From: "dave weatherall" Subject: Re: Looking for SEDT source code Message-ID: <5j1stgF3re9ccU1@mid.individual.net> Dr. Dweeb wrote: > dave weatherall wrote: > > Dr. Dweeb wrote: > > > > > Paul McIlfatrick wrote: > > > > Back on 22nd November 2005 Lee Roth posted the following > > > > article in the comp.unix.solaris newsgroup: > > > > > > > > > Briefly: I have permission from the original author of SEDT > > > > > (Anker Berg-Sonne) to make my modified-for-Solaris binary + > > > > > source files available. > > > > > > > > > > If you've never used the DEC EDT editor I certainly don't > > > > > suggest you begin to do so now, but if you are an old-time > > > > > DEC user like me that has the EDT editor burned deep into > > > > > your brain's ROM, you may want to give this powerful > > > > > EDT-on-steroids editor a look. > > > > > > > > > > I had to do a couple of minor tweaks to get the sources to > > > > > compile, but I have created a binary that runs on Solaris 7, 8 > > > > > and 9 (Sparc) and a separate binary that (at least) Solaris 7 > > > > > on Intel platforms. I have not yet tested the binary on > > > > > Solaris 10 (Sparc). > > > > > > > > > > Additional details at http://easy48.com/sedt/ > > > > > > > > > > Check out the above link... if interested, please respond to > > > > > this posting. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Lee Roth > > > > > > > > A few days ago I posted an article to the comp.unix.solaris > > > > newsgroup asking if Lee Roth had ever made the > > > > modified-for-Solaris binary + source files available. I got > > > > three replies, each trying to be funny about painting the > > > > numlock key gold. > > > > > > > > In Alan Roth's article he mentioned the http://easy48.com/sedt/ > > > > web page and it still exists. Some days ago I sent an e-mail to > > > > Lee at the address he gives on that page but so far there has > > > > been no reply. > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone who started out on VMS back in 1983 and got used to > > > > programming DCL and using EDT, I have never got used to vi on > > > > Solaris after my company moved to Sun machines around 1996. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do any of you people who read this newsgroup know: > > > > > > > > 1) is the SEDT source available somewhere on the Internet for > > > > download (Google search didn't turn up anything)? > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > 2) is there SEDT Solaris binary available (I know this is a VMS > > > > newsgroup!)? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul McIlfatrick > > > > > > SEDT, now there are some memories. That was my editor of choice > > > on my Rainbow 100+ (a sturdy machine that lived for more than a > > > decade before expiring). violins please ... > > > > > > Anyway, what is the best choice for a free "windows" editor with a > > > fully functional EDT interface (incl. macros) ? I do not work in > > > the VMS world anymore, so I am editing on windows and I admit > > > that I miss TPU/EDT. > > > > > > cheers > > > Dweeb > > > > Did you never try Anker's Windows version of SEDT. It does work but > > can be a bit frustrating with the numlock key behaviour...I still > > use it on W2k/XP occasionally. > > No. I did not know it existsed. DO you have a link. > > Dweeb I'll check. I think the one I have was from Anker's site, which seems not to be working now. If not I'll mail you a copy. The source is in Verne's archive. -- Cheers - Dave ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 04:57:51 GMT From: "dave weatherall" Subject: Re: Looking for SEDT source code Message-ID: <5j1u2fF3s1g5rU1@mid.individual.net> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <000301c7e1b2$38556fa0$7ef1a8c0@hpxp>, "Hank Vander Waal" > writes: {...snip...} > > Thanks for the trigger. I tried some years ago to build SEDT on > > Solaris (I use it everywhere else) but had trouble with the 'make' > > process and had too many more interesting things to do on VMS :) > > > > There are a couple of bugs in the VMS version that I've meant to fix > > for years, if I had the time, the source and the build procedure. > > The simplest is to increase the storage for filenames from 80 to > > 255 (well it's enough for ODS-2). Thanks to Brian's link to the > > DECUS library, I might just try again. > > Let me know if you do and how successful you are with it. I started yesterday. Needed to make QIO.MAR Alpha compilabble and add some 'includes' to get the prototying correct and eliminate a rake of warnings and informationals. That left about 4/5 issues to be resolved. One was definitely an error. One was the fact that SEDT had its own select() function that understandably generated a multiple sysmbol definition warning at link time. It's not used so I plinged(*) it out. One was this line :- my_line=Home= ++Home; The compiler warns me about trying to modify Home too often. Fair comment. I'm not sure what he intended but the white space '= ++" makes me think he meant :- my_line=Home; ++Home; Anybody any thoughts. It seems to run but I haven't hammered it. I've started with the source from Decus and will merge with the 'Windows NT' version I had from about 1996. Verne's sources might be slightly later still. I just created .COM files to do the compile and link. -- Cheers - Dave * Pling - slang for commenting out with '!', pling, character :-) Obviously not wholly appropriate to to C's /* */ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:25:08 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: On 08/21/07 22:07, Neil Rieck wrote: [snip] > > As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people > believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still believe > this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other > way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned > the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific > disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed > climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's The problem is that humans (and scientists *are* human) prefer orthodoxy, and peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific orthodoxy. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:48:10 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: <1187754490.157783.107180@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 11:25 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/21/07 22:07, Neil Rieck wrote: > [snip] > > > > > As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people > > believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still believe > > this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other > > way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned > > the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific > > disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed > > climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's > > The problem is that humans (and scientists *are* human) prefer > orthodoxy, and peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific > orthodoxy. > > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > There is a "burdon of proof" that is placed upon each author (not the target audience). It doesn't matter if you are publishing science or religion, peer-review is used to filter much of noise created by authors working outside of the audience in question. If you don't believe me just try to get something published in one of the catholic journals of our time. (I'm not just picking on catholics here; all religions will peer-review the material to make sure it agrees with their current body of knowledge). The same is true of the sciences. NSR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:04:34 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) a hoax Message-ID: On 08/21/07 22:48, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 21, 11:25 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 08/21/07 22:07, Neil Rieck wrote: >> [snip] >> >> >> >>> As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people >>> believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still believe >>> this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other >>> way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned >>> the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific >>> disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed >>> climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's >> The problem is that humans (and scientists *are* human) prefer >> orthodoxy, and peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific >> orthodoxy. >> > > There is a "burdon of proof" that is placed upon each author (not the > target audience). It doesn't matter if you are publishing science or > religion, peer-review is used to filter much of noise created by > authors working outside of the audience in question. You are correct. I fully agree that PR *is* a necessary buffer against sloppiness, stupidity and crackpotism. But it is only one step from that to dogmatic refusal to listen to different ideas. > If you don't believe me just try to get something published in one of > the catholic journals of our time. (I'm not just picking on catholics > here; all religions will peer-review the material to make sure it > agrees with their current body of knowledge). The same is true of the > sciences. It's interesting that you use dogmatic religion as an example of what PR scientific journals are supposed to do. Interesting and troubling. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:13:46 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Reading non-VMS DAT tape Message-ID: <46CB477A.A2494B91@spam.comcast.net> rtk wrote: > > I have an old 4mm DAT tape that was made on a PC using Novaback about > ten years ago. I also have a running Alphaserver 1000 4/200 with a > working DAT drive (I've read VMS format tapes with it). > > Does anyone know a way to pull data of a 4mm DAT tape that was made on > a PC? As you might expect, the answer is: it depends. Getting the data off the tape is semi-trivial: $ MOUNT/FOREIGN ddcu: ! MOUNT the tape drive $ COPY ddcu: 4MM_TAPE.DAT ! Copy what's on it $ DISMOUNT ddcu: ! DISMOUNT the tape drive - done ...as others have posted. Also, as others have posted, having the data is one matter - interpreting it to restore its content to being something meaningful is another matter entirely. > Also, what is the simplest way to backup the system disk onto a DAT > tape? The same as it would be for any magtape medium. See the VMS docset for examples and guidance. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:57:56 -0700 From: Sue Subject: Unicenter System Watchdog for OpenVMS I64 r2.5 Message-ID: <1187740676.491987.214220@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Dear Newsgroup, I sent this out via email today. There is so much cool stuff going on, there were several mentions of VMS in the Press today. A really wonderful article/customer testimonal from Southeastern Freight (wonderful folks there). Warm Regards, Sue --------- Dear Internal and External Distribution Lists, I know that there have been a number of customers waiting for this. Warm Regards, Sue ---------- Unicenter System Watchdog for OpenVMS I64 r2.5 CA is very proud to announce that CA (Unicenter) System Watchdog for OpenVMS I64 r2.5 is now generally available. You can obtain more information about the new features and functionality for this product at this link http://www.ca.com/us/products/product.aspx?id=2949 Sincerely, The Unicenter System Watchdog for OpenVMS I64 Beta Team ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 2007 19:55:35 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: <46cb4337$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>Can I go straight from 7.3-2 to 8.3? > >I have. Ditto >>What is the newest TCPIP for 8.3? > >Comes with the distro: V5.6 There is a V5.6ECO1 now instead. ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/alpha/V8.3/ You need to install it after V5.6, just like an ECO, but it is no ECO but a full product (you can't install it before VMS V8.3 and you can't force VMS V8.3 upgrade to install V5.6ECO1 instead of V5.6). >>Will it fix my problem (i.e. Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability: FALSE will >>silently drop all mail to addresses, whether they are valid VMS >>usernames or not)? > >I don't use the TCPIP Services SMTP so I can't answer this. Ditto. >>Any issues with 8.3? > >I've had none. I did upgrade a client site recently and there are some >issues with Advanced Server 7.3B running on V8.3 but as for V8.3, I've >not had any issues. Ditto. (Reinstallation of ASOVMS and ECP for the newer V8 images was all to do) >>Any issues with the latest TCPIP for 8.3? > >For what it is, it works. Same to me, but I'm just switching back to TCPware V5.8 (now that BIND9 is there) -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 2007 14:10:17 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: <8MHaykLML38c@cuebid.zko.hp.com> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >>Can I go straight from 7.3-2 to 8.3? > > I have. > >>What about clustering with 7.3 VAX? Is it supported? Is it expected to >>work (i.e. there is no reason why it shouldn't, but it hasn't been >>officially certified)? Does it depend? Should I expect it NOT to work? > > Supported? I don't think so. Does it work, YES! I'm pretty sure the latest version of OpenVMS Alpha will always be certified to cluster with the latest version of OpenVMS VAX. -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:28:17 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: Rob Brooks wrote: > > I'm pretty sure the latest version of OpenVMS Alpha will always be certified to > cluster with the latest version of OpenVMS VAX. > Correct. Check the SPD. VAX and Alpha clusters are fully supported. Alpha and Itanium clusters fully supported. It is adding VAX to an Itanium (or Itanium & Alpha) cluster that only has 'transition' support. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 2007 23:14:52 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > Will it fix my problem (i.e. Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability: FALSE > will silently drop all mail to addresses, whether they are valid VMS > usernames or not)? This was why I upgraded. Some ******** was sending out spam that claimed to be coming from my domain. An emergency upgrade to OpenVMS V8.3 and TCPIP V5.6 solved the problem with all the bounces I was the target of. Though the problem I had was that "Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability: FALSE" wouldn't drop email to addresses over the legal lenght, but instead tried to deliver them. Zane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:18:56 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Reagan, John > Sent: August 21, 2007 3:28 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > Rob Brooks wrote: > > > > > I'm pretty sure the latest version of OpenVMS Alpha will always be > certified to > > cluster with the latest version of OpenVMS VAX. > > > > Correct. Check the SPD. VAX and Alpha clusters are fully supported. > Alpha and Itanium clusters fully supported. It is adding VAX to an > Itanium (or Itanium & Alpha) cluster that only has 'transition' > support. > > -- > John Reagan > OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader > Hewlett-Packard Company Btw - it is a huge tribute to OpenVMS Engineering (past and present) when t= he current VMS cluster environment will work fine with: - 3 different HW architectures (VAX 32bit CISC, 64bit Alpha, 64bit EPIC) - common file system compatibility (RMS) - common batch and print queues - common user authentication What are the chances of clustering Solaris or any other OS platform on X86,= SPARC and soon, Power, in the same cluster and have Them all access the same file system co= ncurrently? Yes, VAX is not formally supported, but as pointed out in a number of threa= ds here, works fine with Alpha and Integrity servers in the same cluster. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:36:00 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: <009201c7e45c$cba375c0$62ea6140$@com> I am very curious - how in the world did this solve your problem, since the ******** was sending from some remote system and (assumedly) just forging your return address? -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 6:15 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply > > wrote: > > Will it fix my problem (i.e. Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability: FALSE > > will silently drop all mail to addresses, whether they are valid VMS > > usernames or not)? > > This was why I upgraded. Some ******** was sending out spam that > claimed to > be coming from my domain. An emergency upgrade to OpenVMS V8.3 and > TCPIP > V5.6 solved the problem with all the bounces I was the target of. > > Though the problem I had was that "Symbiont-Checks-Deliverability: > FALSE" > wouldn't drop email to addresses over the legal lenght, but instead > tried to > deliver them. > > Zane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:39:10 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: <009701c7e45d$3cb84830$b628d890$@com> > What are the chances of clustering Solaris or any other OS platform on > X86, SPARC and soon, > Power, in the same cluster and have Them all access the same file > system concurrently? Depending upon what exactly you mean by clustering, pretty darn good. ;) I can, today, have AIX systems share the same hardware devices just as happy as a duck in water. Even IPL devices, though of course, swap filesystems have to be different. (By share I mean not over the SAN, not over the network.) Been able to do that for quite a while... Windows, on the other hand, is not good about sharing hardware *at all*. -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 01:59:26 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] > Sent: August 21, 2007 9:39 PM > To: Main, Kerry; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > > What are the chances of clustering Solaris or any other OS platform > on > > X86, SPARC and soon, > > Power, in the same cluster and have Them all access the same file > > system concurrently? > > Depending upon what exactly you mean by clustering, pretty darn good. > ;) > I can, today, have AIX systems share the same hardware devices just as > happy as a duck in water. Even IPL devices, though of course, swap > filesystems > have to be different. (By share I mean not over the SAN, not over the > network.) > > Been able to do that for quite a while... > With different server HW architectures and the same OS? I know AIX is active-passive clustering, but what different HW architecture= s and AIX can you cluster together? > Windows, on the other hand, is not good about sharing hardware *at > all*. > > -Paul Yeah, well that goes without saying .. :-) Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:27:35 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: <000301c7e464$00d96c20$028c4460$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 8:59 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] > > Sent: August 21, 2007 9:39 PM > > To: Main, Kerry; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: RE: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application > > > > > What are the chances of clustering Solaris or any other OS platform > > on > > > X86, SPARC and soon, > > > Power, in the same cluster and have Them all access the same file > > > system concurrently? > > > > Depending upon what exactly you mean by clustering, pretty darn good. > > ;) > > I can, today, have AIX systems share the same hardware devices just > as > > happy as a duck in water. Even IPL devices, though of course, swap > > filesystems > > have to be different. (By share I mean not over the SAN, not over the > > network.) > > > > Been able to do that for quite a while... > > > > With different server HW architectures and the same OS? > > I know AIX is active-passive clustering, but what different HW > architectures and AIX can > you cluster together? > Just the different versions of POWER I am afraid, but still... :) > > Windows, on the other hand, is not good about sharing hardware *at > > all*. > > > > -Paul > > Yeah, well that goes without saying .. > > :-) > > > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:31:39 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: For the original questions: Yes, with TCPIP 5.6, the SMTP receiver will check against the SYSUAF, distribution lists and I think logical names for valid usernames and if not found rejects the message before it is accepted (therefore no need to issue postmaster messages). This makes a HUGE difference since most of the postmaster messages end up being sent to non-exiatant users generating another postmaster message back at you. Going to 5.6 eliminated 99.9% of those. John Reagan wrote: > Correct. Check the SPD. VAX and Alpha clusters are fully supported. SPD may state that VAX 7,3 and Alpha 8.3 are fully supported, but HP doesn't actually implememt this support. For instance MONITOR CLUSTER is still broken more than a year after 8.3 came out. But the rest appears to work. VAX 7.3 can mount some ODS5 disks (with limitatiosn on usage, which is understandable). I would have prefered HP to fully support VAX 7.2 since that was the last fully featured VAX release. They could have issued patches to give it the ability to interoperate with Alpha 8.3 and to access (within reasonable limits) OSD5 disks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:29:41 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: VMS 8.3 and TCPIP X.Y: the killer application Message-ID: <07082121294188_20200296@antinode.org> From: "Paul Raulerson" > I am very curious - how in the world did this solve your problem, since the > ******** was sending from some remote system and (assumedly) just forging > your return address? > > This was why I upgraded. Some ******** was sending out spam that > > claimed to > > be coming from my domain. [...] Domain, not address. Here's what happens: Junk e-mail is sent to someone where delivery fails. Junk e-mail says "From: invalid-user@my.domain". When delivery to the intended victim fails, the victim'e e-mail system sends a bounce message to "invalid-user@my.domain". Lame TCPIP V5.4 SMTP software can't deliver to "invaild-user", who doesn't exist, but it's an invalid user name, so, instead of rejecting the bounce message, it passes the message along to the postmaster, where it piles up along with the junk sent directly to "some-other-invalid-user@my.domain". Less lame TCPIP V5.6 SMTP software is willing to reject messages sent to "invalid-user", even when the user name is invalid (too long, illegal characters, and so on), not just when it doesn't exist. The would-be-funny-if-it-weren't-so-sad part is that after complaining in this forum about the problem, (foolishly) using examples based on my real domain name, so now I get stuff sent to "abc-def@my.domain", for example. A vendor with any sense of shame would have supplied the fix for TCPIP V5.4, too. (I'm holding my breath, waiting for ECO 7.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode.org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:17:30 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: VMSTAR Message-ID: I am getting an EOF tring to extract a large directory and suspect size issue. multics.tar;1 3867460 21-AUG-2007 12:50:12.76 [SYSTEM] as you can see it is almost 2GB. I created the tar with cygwin and I don't think it is to blame. Is there a known issue with VMSTAR? VMS TAR V3.4-1 (Nov 29 2001) -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:52:25 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: VMSTAR Message-ID: <07082121522545_20200296@antinode.org> From: "Tom Linden" > I am getting an EOF tring to extract a large directory and suspect size > issue. Issue? Is that anything like a PROBLEM? > multics.tar;1 3867460 21-AUG-2007 12:50:12.76 [SYSTEM] > > as you can see it is almost 2GB. I created the tar with cygwin and I > don't think > it is to blame. "[A]lmost 2GB" should mean that there's almost a reason to suspect a size PROBLEM. > Is there a known issue with VMSTAR? > VMS TAR V3.4-1 (Nov 29 2001) I think that it was known to have been issued around Nov 29 2001. Does that count? Or did you mean a known PROBLEM? In fact, VMSTAR has a few problems, but I don't know if any of them would explain this particular failure. I assume that you used GNU "tar" to make the archive, and GNU "tar" has the ability to defeat VMSTAR in a number of ways. For a good time, you might try a modified (unreleased, hardly tested, possibly improved) edition: http://antinode.org/ftp/vmstar/v3r5_pre1_src.zip When you're complaining about a problem to the man at the car dealer service department, he calls your problem an "issue" in the hope that if he doesn't _call_ it a problem, you won't think that you _have_ a problem. Issues get discussed. Problems get solved. (Or not.) And that's only after he stops calling your complaint a "concern". _He_ can call a complaint or a problem anything he wants, but there's no reason for the rest of us to cooperate in his attempts to delude us. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:09:31 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: VMSTAR Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 19:52:25 -0700, Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: "Tom Linden" > >> I am getting an EOF tring to extract a large directory and suspect size >> issue. > > Issue? Is that anything like a PROBLEM? > >> multics.tar;1 3867460 21-AUG-2007 12:50:12.76 [SYSTEM] >> >> as you can see it is almost 2GB. I created the tar with cygwin and I >> don't think >> it is to blame. > > "[A]lmost 2GB" should mean that there's almost a reason to suspect a > size PROBLEM. > >> Is there a known issue with VMSTAR? >> VMS TAR V3.4-1 (Nov 29 2001) > > I think that it was known to have been issued around Nov 29 2001. > Does that count? Or did you mean a known PROBLEM? In fact, VMSTAR has > a few problems, but I don't know if any of them would explain this > particular failure. I assume that you used GNU "tar" to make the > archive, and GNU "tar" has the ability to defeat VMSTAR in a number of > ways. For a good time, you might try a modified (unreleased, hardly > tested, possibly improved) edition: > > http://antinode.org/ftp/vmstar/v3r5_pre1_src.zip > I will give it a try and dutifully report back. > > When you're complaining about a problem to the man at the car dealer > service department, he calls your problem an "issue" in the hope that if > he doesn't _call_ it a problem, you won't think that you _have_ a > problem. Issues get discussed. Problems get solved. (Or not.) And > that's only after he stops calling your complaint a "concern". _He_ can > call a complaint or a problem anything he wants, but there's no reason > for the rest of us to cooperate in his attempts to delude us. Cleverly put. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:16:04 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <46CB4804.D708DFDF@spam.comcast.net> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57253 Aw, Bob! You've been doing so well for some time now. I thought you'd cured yourself of this kind of stuff... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:53:27 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <46cb5ede$0$21924$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> David J Dachtera wrote: > ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: >> >> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57253 > > Aw, Bob! You've been doing so well for some time now. > > I thought you'd cured yourself of this kind of stuff...' This bit made me laugh "However, a United Nations scientist, Jim Renwick, recently conceded that climate models do not account for the variability in nature, and so are not reliable. And Conklin noted the U.S. National Climate Data Center has compiled data that shouldn't be used, because its reporting points are located on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels and even attached to hot chimneys, a methodology that is "seriously flawed."" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:00:39 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <1187740839.546738.174670@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 9:23 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57253 American corporate marketing has gone too far. Web sites are popping up claiming to be "Junk Science whistle blowers" but these propaganda sites are actually funded from the advertising budgets of oil companies (like ExxonMobil, Imperial Oil, etc.) and tobacco companies (like Philip Morris, Brown and Williamson, etc.) with the intention of convincing ordinary people to doubt science and then believe absurd non-sense. As a memo from the tobacco company Brown and Williamson noted, "Doubt is our product since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the mind of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy." Both industries also sought to distance themselves from their own campaigns, creating the impression that they were spontaneous movements of professionals or ordinary citizens: the "grassroots". These denial web sites tend to use the phrase "junk science" when referring "to peer-reviewed scientific research" and "sound science" when referring to "wishful thinking". To make matters worse, these companies fund many conservative think tanks making sure they get the academic opinions they desire (I always wondered why North America was drifting away from the political center). These denial sites and think tank people reference each other during debates which later filter down to newspapers or other web sites. Many employ scientists who "have not published any peer-reviewed material for more than 10 years" or "are working outside their area of expertise". For more information on this scam, please see pages 31-35 of the 2006-2007 book "Heat" by George Monbiot (with research by Dr. Mathew Prescott) or visit one of these links: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/denialmachine/ http://www.ExxonSecrets.org http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/sep/19/ethicalliving.g2 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:27:02 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:00:39 -0700, Neil Rieck wrote: > American corporate marketing has gone too far. Web sites are popping > up claiming to be "Junk Science whistle blowers" but these propaganda Neil, no insult intended, but I think it would behoove you to understand the underlying science. Appealing to conspiracy theories, whilst clever, does nothing to improve the understanding of the underlying, basic scientific discussion. Ironically, the companies that have been singled out as villains in this comedy are the ones who will likely profit the most from it. For example, the energy cost to produce a quantity of ethanol (from corn, sawgrass, etc.) exceeds the amount of energy that can be derived from the ethanol. AGM is a hoax. I suspect most scientists took the early reports as fact, as they were published in various journals, but as time passes, I believe that you will find the tide turning overwhelmingly in the other direction. I certainly made an about face. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:07:42 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <1187752062.424010.9570@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 8:27 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:00:39 -0700, Neil Rieck > wrote: > Neil, no insult intended, but I think it would behoove you to understand > the underlying science. Appealing to conspiracy theories, whilst clever, > does nothing to improve the understanding of the underlying, basic > scientific discussion. When there has been documented proof that people in the White House are editing scientific publications, and that some of these people are associated with "big oil", then I suspect you are just being dismissive with your flippant remark about conspiracy theories. > > Ironically, the companies that have been singled out as villains in this > comedy are the ones who will likely profit the most from it. For example, > the energy cost to produce a quantity of ethanol (from corn, sawgrass, > etc.) exceeds the amount of energy that can be derived from the ethanol. > No surprise there... > > AGM is a hoax. I suspect most scientists took the early reports as fact, > as they were published in various journals, but as time passes, I believe > that you will find the tide turning overwhelmingly in the other direction. > I certainly made an about face. > If AGM means Anti Gravity Machine then I agree with you. But I wonder if this could be a typo on your part? > You crack me up. We're talking about global warming but you prefer to confuse the issue by bringing up alternate distractions like ethanol. (I agree with you by the way) As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still believe this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's activities are contributing to it, then I tend to think that global warming is a fact and that this mind-set hasn't yet rippled through the remainder of society. (It sure took a long time for people to stop ridiculing "geological uplift" and "continental drift"; I think we had to wait for the Naysayers to die off before we had a consensus) Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:11:23 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <1187752283.339118.24920@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 4:16 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > >http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57253 > > Aw, Bob! You've been doing so well for some time now. > > I thought you'd cured yourself of this kind of stuff... > > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemshttp://www.djesys.com/ > I should have realized that Bob was behind this. I suspect he gets some sort of perverse pleasure throwing pebbles at our windows. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:42:17 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:07:42 -0700, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 21, 8:27 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:00:39 -0700, Neil Rieck >> wrote: > >> Neil, no insult intended, but I think it would behoove you to >> understand >> the underlying science. Appealing to conspiracy theories, whilst >> clever, >> does nothing to improve the understanding of the underlying, basic >> scientific discussion. > > When there has been documented proof that people in the White House > are editing scientific publications, and that some of these people are > associated with "big oil", then I suspect you are just being > dismissive with your flippant remark about conspiracy theories. Whether or not that is true is a non sequitur. The subject matter is independently amenable to scientific deliberation. > >> >> Ironically, the companies that have been singled out as villains in this >> comedy are the ones who will likely profit the most from it. For >> example, >> the energy cost to produce a quantity of ethanol (from corn, sawgrass, >> etc.) exceeds the amount of energy that can be derived from the ethanol. >> > No surprise there... >> >> AGM is a hoax. I suspect most scientists took the early reports as >> fact, >> as they were published in various journals, but as time passes, I >> believe >> that you will find the tide turning overwhelmingly in the other >> direction. >> I certainly made an about face. >> > > If AGM means Anti Gravity Machine then I agree with you. But I wonder > if this could be a typo on your part? > Anthropogenic Glogal Warming >> > > You crack me up. We're talking about global warming but you prefer to > confuse the issue by bringing up alternate distractions like ethanol. > (I agree with you by the way) You misunderstood, or perhaps I was unclear, because of the debate politicians are willing to throw money at foolish projects, and the companies standing to gain the most are those who are held in disdain by the proponents of the cause. That is the irony. So who is the fool? > > As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people > believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still believe > this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other > way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned > the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific > disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed > climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's > activities are contributing to it, then I tend to think that global > warming is a fact and that this mind-set hasn't yet rippled through > the remainder of society. (It sure took a long time for people to stop > ridiculing "geological uplift" and "continental drift"; I think we had > to wait for the Naysayers to die off before we had a consensus) This is not a popularity contest. I seriously question your use of Argumentum ad Populum. I have seen some of those lists of so-called scientists. Let's be clear, we currently have global warming, but man had nothing to do with it, but it will pass as it has countless times in the past. Indeed the earth was warmer, the seas were higher in 1250AD than at the present. We have the good fortune to live on the Earth when its climate is about as good as it can get. We turned the corner about 800 years ago and are slowly descending into the next Ice Age, when the winter Solstice and aphelion once again cross. Climatological change occurs on a scale than far exceeds human memory. Our current warming is largely due to increased solar activity (sunspots) as also occurred in the 1930's, and that too will pass and the 2020's will likely be cooler as was the 1960's So humble yourself, we have but little effect on the earth, other perhaps than to pollute it to the detriment of our well being. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > > > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 2007 13:33:52 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: <62tpA6FtG9iI@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1187701306.640606.132370@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Andrew writes: > It has been possible to add classes to the UNIX scheduler since at > least the introduction of Solaris 2.0 in 1992. However few if any > customers mad use of this until Sun introduced a fairshare scheduler > and supporting tools in Solaris 9. > > As a matter of interest does OpenVMS provide support for fairshare > scheduling? Certainly VMS does not provide anything using the Solaris trade name for the feature, but there is great depth in the capability that has been there longest (since VMS V6.0) is described at: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/83FINAL/4527/4527pro_099.html#jun_469 You can roll anything you want, or use the more limited semantics of the command line interface. I don't know what percentage of VMS sites use class scheduling. I have a feeling that HP does not know either. That is always a problem with things that do not involve an extra license :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:58:50 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion Message-ID: On 08/21/07 11:29, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> On 08/21/07 06:26, Andrew wrote: >> [snip] >>> Limiting CPU resources on an app/user basis is only one small aspect >>> of workload management. Most commercial customers who use this kind of >>> functionality also require memory management and I/O management. >> OK, call me stupid. Aren't those core duties of the OS? > > That depends on who designed the OS and what design criteria were > applied. Certainly early versions of UNIX, VMS, and many other OS > did not limit CPU useage to a percentage (as discussed earlier in > this thread), nor I/O throughput. > > VMS always had limited cpu priority, memory useage, and I/O queuing on a > per process basis. Prioritizing I/O and limiting cpu on a percentage > basis per process came later. Oh, I see what he meant by "memory management and I/O management". He really meant quotas, priorities, etc. > Early UNIX limited some kinds of memory use but not others. I don't > recall seeing any limits on I/O, but some UNIX may have them now. > > RTOS, like VxWorks, tend not to limit anything, it's up to the system > level design to make sure things work, but individual users aren't > generally a problem. > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.459 ************************