INFO-VAX Tue, 09 Oct 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 552 Contents: Alphaserver 4100 B3030-EA (256 Mbyte boards) available in the UK Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX Re: Console on VAX DEC them song - One more year at the trough! (Was: Re: OT: one of the most infor Re: DEC them song - One more year at the trough! (Was: Re: OT: one of the most i Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Glass Fish on OpenVMS? Shafting Loyal Customers (again) Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever RE: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? RE: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 16:11:10 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Alphaserver 4100 B3030-EA (256 Mbyte boards) available in the UK Message-ID: Gentle colleagues, I'm about to rescue 6 x B3030-EA 256 Mbyte memory boards for Alphaserver 4100 from one of my clients tomorrow. I'll give them away free to whoever wants them and can collect them (location is near Saffron Walden, NW Essex, 10 miles south of Cambridge). Any interest ? Obviously no guarantees, but I'm pretty sure they'll be in good working order. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:18:49 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Console on VAX Message-ID: I recently hooked up a Xyplex terminal server to the serioal ports of the various nodes. I had to shutdown the VAX 7.3 4000/90 in order to expand a shadow set. So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be correctly set I see that its value is 00000001. Is this the correct setting? Is there perhaps another interfering variable? -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 13:09:00 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: <57177$470bb5ad$cef8887a$32601@TEKSAVVY.COM> Tom Linden wrote: > So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a > message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. > > I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be correctly > set That is normal behaviour for VAX. VAX machines normally have a hardware switch to tell them to either boot automatically after power is applied to the machine or go to console. And this switch greatly affects how you get into >>> mode. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 17:15:37 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: <5n1r9pFft48oU1@mid.individual.net> In article <57177$470bb5ad$cef8887a$32601@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Tom Linden wrote: >> So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a >> message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. >> >> I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be correctly >> set > > That is normal behaviour for VAX. > > VAX machines normally have a hardware switch to tell them to either boot > automatically after power is applied to the machine or go to console. > And this switch greatly affects how you get into >>> mode. Ummmm...... Greatly dependant on what model VAX you are looking at. Some had no switches of any sort beyond the keyswitch used to power them on. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:36:54 -0700 From: deano Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: <1191951414.521496.12410@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 10:15 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <57177$470bb5ad$cef8887a$32...@teksavvy.com>, > JF Mezei writes: > > > Tom Linden wrote: > >> So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a > >> message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. > > >> I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be correctly > >> set > > > That is normal behaviour for VAX. > > > VAX machines normally have a hardware switch to tell them to either boot > > automatically after power is applied to the machine or go to console. > > And this switch greatly affects how you get into >>> mode. > > Ummmm...... Greatly dependant on what model VAX you are looking > at. Some had no switches of any sort beyond the keyswitch used > to power them on. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Some of the old vaxes would halt with a framing error, when a break is sent to it. see if you can pass a break to it. with powerterm, click cinnunication, click utilities, click break. putty can pass it to. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:52:18 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Console on VAX Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:15:37 -0700, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <57177$470bb5ad$cef8887a$32601@teksavvy.com>, > JF Mezei writes: >> Tom Linden wrote: >>> So I log in through the console and go thru the shutdown. No >>> but a >>> message telling me to hit the console to shutdown. >>> >>> I did that, but thinkinbg that the CONSOLE variable must not be >>> correctly >>> set >> >> That is normal behaviour for VAX. >> >> VAX machines normally have a hardware switch to tell them to either boot >> automatically after power is applied to the machine or go to console. >> And this switch greatly affects how you get into >>> mode. > > Ummmm...... Greatly dependant on what model VAX you are looking > at. Some had no switches of any sort beyond the keyswitch used > to power them on. > > bill > This is a 4000/90 and I have the S3 switch in up position -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:21:29 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: DEC them song - One more year at the trough! (Was: Re: OT: one of the most infor Message-ID: Hi Jan-Erik, > Well, maybe. > It's also the way to get *new/young* developers to write > software for VMS. Then surely they'd be writing it in Java, C++ or Perl and not wasting any time on that procedural (COBOL, BASIC, Pascal, Fortran or C) crap that grandpa used to write? C'mon isn't it time that we started listening to VMS middle management and realized that we're all a bunch of inconvenient and anachronistic has-beens; just more of those looney rellies that you lock up in the attic for partys? Yes, we must "wrapper" our *legacy* data, business rules, and rich herritage of VMS 3GL code up into a form more palatable (and more importantly, PROFITABLE) to VMS middle management! Could it be at all possible that the Mick Keyes', John Apps' and a veritable cirque de soleil, Cecil B de Mill cast of thousands at the VMS clique factory, can see many prosperous months/years of Java + Net Beans + Apache + Glass Fish consultancy? And hey shit, if it does all happen to go pear-shaped like Rally, DECforms, DCE/RPC, ONC/RPC, DECAdmire, BridgeDoesn't, Forte, ACMSxp, WSIT then no one can be held accountable 'cos you'll have umpteen Gartner reports to prove that you never did anything risky. Happy Days! Cheers Richard Maher PS. Jan-Erik could you please just explain to me why, if VMS has now spent millions implementing a Java JRE and SDK, that we need to develop with "distributed" NetBeans IDE on Windows (or a.n.other) rather than native NetBeans on VMS? (I really like Eclipse at the moment but let's not go there just yet) "Jan-Erik Söderholm" wrote in message news:PTFOi.10747$ZA.7112@newsb.telia.net... > Michael Kraemer wrote: > > Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: > >> > >> The usual way of running NetBeans is on a Windows workstation > >> and through the "Distributed" part from HP one can compile, > >> debug and test the code on the VMS server. > > > > Seems more like another sign of decline to me. > > VMS needing a windoze box to produce its own > > software. > > > > Well, maybe. > It's also the way to get *new/young* developers to write > software for VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 13:58:23 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: DEC them song - One more year at the trough! (Was: Re: OT: one of the most i Message-ID: <3OLOi.10765$ZA.7041@newsb.telia.net> Richard Maher wrote: > Hi Jan-Erik, > >> Well, maybe. >> It's also the way to get *new/young* developers to write >> software for VMS. > > Then surely they'd be writing it in Java, C++ or Perl and not wasting any > time on that procedural (COBOL, BASIC, Pascal, Fortran or C) crap that > grandpa used to write? Of course, just keep on using those 3G's. Why shouldn't you ? > PS. Jan-Erik could you please just explain to me why, if VMS has now spent > millions implementing a Java JRE and SDK, that we need to develop with > "distributed" NetBeans IDE on Windows (or a.n.other) rather than native > NetBeans on VMS? Becuse you can write faster apps (and probably write apps faster) using traditional 3G's then Java. And by using Distributed NetBeans on a Windows client, you don't have to have *ANY* Java stuff on your lovely VMS box... And I do not see any major problem working from a Windows client. IT's where I have access to everything else I need at work such as mail, "the web", PDF-doc files and everything else. Let the VMS system do what is does *better* then other envoronments, and that is *not* workstation type of work ! I'm not a great fan of Java, but on the other side I couldn't care less if a tool that does the job happens to be written in Java. It's just a tool... > I really like Eclipse at the moment but let's not go there > just yet And in same way, I coudln't care less what the tool is called as long as it does the job. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:06:07 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: <5n1oklFfpkgpU1@mid.individual.net> On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: > [...] > > p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK 16 days each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I haven't been there ... Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:41:18 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: European OpenVMS Technical Update Days Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:06:07 -0700, Michael Unger wrote: > On 2007-10-08 16:58, "Neil Rieck" wrote: > >> [...] >> >> p.s. Aren't they currently celebrating Oktoberfest in Munich? :-) > > They were -- from September 22th to October 7th this year (AFAIK 16 days > each year, ending at the first full weekend in october). No, I haven't > been there ... > > Michael > Used to have a flat on the Pettenkoferstrasse about 150m from the Theresienwiese and it was impossible to get a full nights sleep during those 16 days. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 20:34:36 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Glass Fish on OpenVMS? Shafting Loyal Customers (again) Message-ID: Hi, How many people would be interested in running Glass Fish on OpenVMS, Alpha or Integrity? Of those, how many would want to: 1. use OpenVMS as a host for their Glass Fish Application Server 2. Have free beer for the rest of their lives 3. both of the above Glass Fish is an Open Source initiative. We have port(ing)ed it to OpenVMS 8.3 on Alpha and Integrity to try and justify our existence (nothing better to do...*literally*). By way of introduction let me say that I'm one of VMS Middle Mgmnt's International Men of Mystery. We at the IMM team wiz round the globe popping up at Technical Update Days and DECUS symposia and generally make a complete nuisance of ourselves in our quest to find something to put on the timesheet. The complete "Mystery" here being what the fuck we get paid for! Anyway, the truth is that we're a little worried about the Waste of Substantial Investement in Technology having been still born and, as most of us would like another five years at the trough before retiring, we've decided to manifacture yet another cost centre vaguely linked to something we can describe as an "emerging trend" in bollocksology. So if all you stupid VMS customers can keep coughing up your license fees so me and my mates can keep living it up large then that'll be just peachy. Look, I know all the good technical enginners have been penshioned off and you're left with the same leaches that bled Digital dry in the first place, but if you close your eyes I'll let you call me the name of your favourite ex-VMS engineer while I'm giving it to you - can't say faireer than that! Cheers, Carpet-Bagger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 07:14:55 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Message-ID: Michael Kraemer wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: >> >> The usual way of running NetBeans is on a Windows workstation >> and through the "Distributed" part from HP one can compile, >> debug and test the code on the VMS server. > > Seems more like another sign of decline to me. > VMS needing a windoze box to produce its own > software. > Well, maybe. It's also the way to get *new/young* developers to write software for VMS. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:17:15 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" wrote: > In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > wrote: > > > http://tmesis.com/powerpuke.html > > I have embedded the video in a bit of HTML so that it doesn't need > Javascript. > > It still needs Flash of course. > > http://sture.ch/chicken.html Hmm, I clarify what I said above. I haven't copied the video, merely embedded the reference to it in a bit of HTML using the ... tags. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 07:30:02 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Message-ID: In article <5mv1fiFf1j9mU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Maybe we should all count up our systems and see just who has the most, > still functioning, DEC systems. Just off the top of my head I can come > up with at least 8 VAX and 7 PDP-11's. I had more, but I did just get > rid of some of my larger VAX and PDP-11 systems (out of necessity and > not by choice!!) Do I get to count my SIMH VAXen, SIMH PDP-you-name-it, and Compaq branded Alphas? ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 13:57:30 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: one of the most informative Powerpoint presentations ever Message-ID: <5n1fmaFd95u2U1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5mv1fiFf1j9mU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Maybe we should all count up our systems and see just who has the most, >> still functioning, DEC systems. Just off the top of my head I can come >> up with at least 8 VAX and 7 PDP-11's. I had more, but I did just get >> rid of some of my larger VAX and PDP-11 systems (out of necessity and >> not by choice!!) > > Do I get to count my SIMH VAXen, SIMH PDP-you-name-it, and Compaq > branded Alphas? Only if they are running on other DEC non-PC hardware. Anybody ever port SIMH to TOPS? :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 18:29:20 +1000 From: "O'Brien Paddy" Subject: RE: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC303BC75@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:win@fom.fgan.de] Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? =20 Hello, I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should do, what we can do to prevent the earth. AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to stop the global warming. Best regards Rudolf Wingert ****** I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= readers. I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it difficult = to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use. The only way I = can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody pain. Rudolf, I agree with your general sentiments. However, if there is a global warmin= g problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are America (U= SA) and China. The Green party (in various countries) also seems happy to = fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spout off abou= t reducing carbon emissions. A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources. Take wind powe= r as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional powe= r sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies. Conventional power = sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to be spinning= throughout the period of reliance on wind. Ecologists are also concerned = about the number of birds being killed by this method of power generation. The most economic and "carbon-friendly" generation of electrical power is n= uclear, which some countries like Australia eschew (though this might chang= e if the Liberal party stays in power). This does currently have problems = in long-term disposal. But the fission/fusion (I forget which is which - I= 'm a number cruncher not an engineer) technological investigations will hop= efully resolve this. P.S. The religious world is now fast becoming Muslim, particularly those w= ith extreme values. Regards, Paddy *********************************************************************** Please consider the environment before printing this email. "This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20 addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient of=20 this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise the sender. You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=20 distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 immediately. Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 authority states them to be the views of TransGrid. TransGrid uses virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any attachment." *********************************************************************** ------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: still not convinced global warming a hoax?


-----Original Message-----
From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:win@fom.fga= n.de]
Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM
To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax?

Hello,

I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's=
the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) shoul= d
do, what we can do to prevent the earth.
AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians=
should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they ca= n
do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to<= BR> stop the global warming.

Best regards Rudolf Wingert


******

I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= readers.  I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it diffi= cult to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use.  The o= nly way I can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody p= ain.

Rudolf,

I agree with your general sentiments.  However, if there is a global w= arming problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are Ameri= ca (USA) and China.  The Green party (in various countries) also seems= happy to fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spou= t off about reducing carbon emissions.

A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources.  Take wind= power as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional= power sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies.  Conventio= nal power sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to b= e spinning throughout the period of reliance on wind.  Ecologists are = also concerned about the number of birds being killed by this method of pow= er generation.

The most economic and "carbon-friendly" generation of electrical = power is nuclear, which some countries like Australia eschew (though this m= ight change if the Liberal party stays in power).  This does currently= have problems in long-term disposal.  But the fission/fusion (I forge= t which is which - I'm a number cruncher not an engineer) technological inv= estigations will hopefully resolve this.

P.S.  The religious world is now fast becoming Muslim, particularly th= ose with extreme values.

Regards, Paddy

*******= ****************************************************************

Plea= se consider the environment before printing this email.

=

 <= /span>

"T= his electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged

and con= fidential information intended only for the use of the

address= ees named above. If you are not the intended recipient of

this em= ail, please delete the message and any attachment and advise

the sen= der. You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,

distrib= ution, reproduction of this email is prohibited.

=

 <= /span>

If you = have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid

immedia= tely. Any views expressed in this email are those of the

individ= ual sender except where the sender expressly and with

authori= ty states them to be the views of TransGrid. TransGrid uses

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contain= ed in any attachment."

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 09:59:04 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: "Ron Johnson" wrote in message news:WOCOi.19200$pX5.9629@newsfe14.lga... >> 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... > > I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even > from classical Greece. I think I recall one from a Bablyonian priest. I'll have to look it up. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 11:22:50 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: RE: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC303BC75@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>, "O'Brien Paddy" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:win@fom.fgan.de] >Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? >=20 >Hello, > >I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's >the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and >times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should >do, what we can do to prevent the earth. >AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians >should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can >do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. >Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to >stop the global warming. > >Best regards Rudolf Wingert > > >****** > >I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= > readers. I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it difficult = >to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use. The only way I = >can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody pain. > >Rudolf, > >I agree with your general sentiments. However, if there is a global warmin= >g problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are America (U= >SA) and China. The Green party (in various countries) also seems happy to = >fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spout off abou= >t reducing carbon emissions. > >A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources. Take wind powe= >r as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional powe= >r sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies. Conventional power = >sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to be spinning= > throughout the period of reliance on wind. Ecologists are also concerned = >about the number of birds being killed by this method of power generation. > There are means being developed to store the energy generated from wind so that a continuous supply can be maintained. Threre are many different schemes being developed from flow battery storage see http://www.science.org.au/nova/newscientist/037ns_001.htm to compressed air storage in a sandstone aquifer see http://goodshit.phlap.net/2007/10/post_15962.html (the latter article a copy of a recent New Scientist article mentions some of the other storage solutions being developed). >The most economic and "carbon-friendly" generation of electrical power is n= >uclear, which some countries like Australia eschew (though this might chang= >e if the Liberal party stays in power). This does currently have problems = >in long-term disposal. But the fission/fusion (I forget which is which - I= >'m a number cruncher not an engineer) technological investigations will hop= >efully resolve this. > Fusion appears to be relatively clean but still appears to be someway off. Fission not only suffers from the waste problem but is not a solution that can be used throughout the world because of the potential for redirection of civilian nuclear energy programs into nuclear weapon programs. If you want Iran to cut it's C02 emissions then if you promote nuclear as a solution then you should support Iran's development of a civilian nuclear power program. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >P.S. The religious world is now fast becoming Muslim, particularly those w= >ith extreme values. > >Regards, Paddy > >*********************************************************************** >Please consider the environment before printing this email. > >"This electronic message and any attachments may contain privileged >and confidential information intended only for the use of the=20 >addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient of=20 >this email, please delete the message and any attachment and advise >the sender. You are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,=20 >distribution, reproduction of this email is prohibited. > >If you have received the email in error, please notify TransGrid=20 >immediately. Any views expressed in this email are those of the=20 >individual sender except where the sender expressly and with=20 >authority states them to be the views of TransGrid. TransGrid uses >virus-scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses >contained in any attachment." > >*********************************************************************** > > >------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B >Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > >1"> > >RE: still not convinced global warming a hoax? > > > >
>
>
> >

-----Original Message-----
>From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:win@fom.fga= >n.de]
>Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM
>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
>Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax?
>
>Hello,
>
>I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's= >
>the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages andR> >times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) shoul= >d
>do, what we can do to prevent the earth.
>AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians= >
>should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they ca= >n
>do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can.R> >Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to<= >BR> >stop the global warming.
>
>Best regards Rudolf Wingert
>
>
>******
>
>I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= > readers.  I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it diffi= >cult to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use.  The o= >nly way I can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody p= >ain.
>
>Rudolf,
>
>I agree with your general sentiments.  However, if there is a global w= >arming problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are Ameri= >ca (USA) and China.  The Green party (in various countries) also seems= > happy to fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spou= >t off about reducing carbon emissions.
>
>A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources.  Take wind= > power as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional= > power sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies.  Conventio= >nal power sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to b= >e spinning throughout the period of reliance on wind.  Ecologists are = >also concerned about the number of birds being killed by this method of pow= >er generation.
>
>The most economic and "carbon-friendly" generation of electrical = >power is nuclear, which some countries like Australia eschew (though this m= >ight change if the Liberal party stays in power).  This does currently= > have problems in long-term disposal.  But the fission/fusion (I forge= >t which is which - I'm a number cruncher not an engineer) technological inv= >estigations will hopefully resolve this.
>
>P.S.  The religious world is now fast becoming Muslim, particularly th= >ose with extreme values.
>
>Regards, Paddy
>

> > >

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> > >------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 04:51:38 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191930698.001213.36520@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 8, 11:44 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 10/08/07 09:04, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 7, 11:02 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > >> On Oct 4, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > >>> Question: > >>> In my mind, a religious person has always been a compassionate person > >>> willing to share wealth, help others, live a good honest life and make > >>> sure to protect god's creations (wether humans or animals or the planet). > >>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with > >>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill > >>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping > >>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > >>> Or is it a case of religious persons in the USA supporting one party > >>> that is 99% against what they believe in just because the agree with the > >>> remaining 1% (abortion) ? > >> True Christians are non-violent evangelists but many North American > >> Christians are obsessed with escatology and other end-time nonsense. > >> They think it is OK to destroy the Earth because Christ will return > >> soon and make everything right. > > > you been following revelation lately? > > > 1. when Israel becomes a nation again, the time of the > > gentiles will be fulfilled ... 1948 > > It (Christ's Return) was supposed to happen within 1 generation of > 1948. That's 25-30 years. > > It's been 60. > > > 2. He will gather the jews from the all over the world back, > > and from the land of the north (Moscow, Russia) ... 1988 > > the Berlin wall falls as well as communism and since then > > over 2 million jews have left for Israel ... > > Well, ok. You're right about that one. > > > 3. wars and rumors of wars ... world war I, II, korean, vietnam, > > Iraq 1, Iraq 2, plus many others smaller ones ... Iran? > > Israel and Syria? > > Humans have been fighting wars since the beginning of civilization. > > > 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... > > I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even > from classical Greece. > > > 5. earthquakes in divers places ... happening and increasing ... > > Earthquakes where people go SCUBA swimming? Oh, my! > > Earthquakes along fault zones? Shocking! > > Recording more earthquakes because we've got more (and more > sensitive) seismographs spread across the world? Amazing! > > > 6. old roman empire reforms ... EU > > Somehow, I don't see Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libia, Egypt, > Israel, Jordan and Syria joining the EU. > > > 7. a failing away from the church ... happening > > And a damned good thing, too. > > > when you see these signs, look up, for your redemption is near ... > > > Daniel, Isaiah and other prophecies in the bible confirm > > revelation ... > > Paul expected the return 1,940 years ago. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - a generation in the bible is 40, 70 or 80 years ... it does not say it would happen a generation after Israel becomes a nation again ... it says when the fig tree (Israel) blossoms, that generation will see the end ... maybe Israel retaking Jerusalem is what God is reffering to ... or maybe the 70 or 80 years added on to Israel becoming a nation is that happening, but when Israel became a nation again, that signalled the end of the time of the gentiles and started the countdown ... we ARE in the last days ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 04:52:53 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191930773.642802.320220@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 7:22 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC303B...@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>, "O'Brien Paddy" writes: > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > >------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:w...@fom.fgan.de] > >Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM > >To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > >Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? > >=20 > >Hello, > > >I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's > >the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and > >times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should > >do, what we can do to prevent the earth. > >AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians > >should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can > >do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. > >Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to > >stop the global warming. > > >Best regards Rudolf Wingert > > >****** > > >I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= > > readers. I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it difficult = > >to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use. The only way I = > >can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody pain. > > >Rudolf, > > >I agree with your general sentiments. However, if there is a global warmin= > >g problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are America (U= > >SA) and China. The Green party (in various countries) also seems happy to = > >fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spout off abou= > >t reducing carbon emissions. > > >A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources. Take wind powe= > >r as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional powe= > >r sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies. Conventional power = > >sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to be spinning= > > throughout the period of reliance on wind. Ecologists are also concerned = > >about the number of birds being killed by this method of power generation. > > There are means being developed to store the energy generated from wind so that > a continuous supply can be maintained. Threre are many different schemes being > developed from flow battery storage see > > http://www.science.org.au/nova/newscientist/037ns_001.htm > > to > > compressed air storage in a sandstone aquifer > > see > > http://goodshit.phlap.net/2007/10/post_15962.html Yeah, that's a real encouraging domain name there! '-) ;-) I really wouldn't take anything seriously from a Web site with a URL like that. > > (the latter article a copy of a recent New Scientist article mentions some of > the other storage solutions being developed). > > >The most economic and "carbon-friendly" generation of electrical power is n= > >uclear, which some countries like Australia eschew (though this might chang= > >e if the Liberal party stays in power). This does currently have problems = > >in long-term disposal. But the fission/fusion (I forget which is which - I= > >'m a number cruncher not an engineer) technological investigations will hop= > >efully resolve this. > > Fusion appears to be relatively clean but still appears to be someway off. This has ALWAYS been true of fusion. > Fission not only suffers from the waste problem but is not a solution that can > be used throughout the world because of the potential for redirection of > civilian nuclear energy programs into nuclear weapon programs. > If you want Iran to cut it's C02 emissions then if you promote nuclear as a > solution then you should support Iran's development of a civilian nuclear > power program. I'd worry mostly about redirection into weapons. What's worse, a very occasional Chernobyl (assuming worst non-weapons case) or turning Earth into Venus (assuming Global Warming is really that bad and I'm not saying it's one way or another)? I think we just have too many people on the planet. Not that I recommend killing anyone, but policies shouldn't promote population growth. All these alternate energy sources are either lame, too expensive, or both. Reducing light pollution would help save energy AND improve the quality of life at night for everyone. See www.darksky.org for more info. > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University>P.S. The religious world is now fast becoming Muslim, particularly those w= > >ith extreme values. AEF [...] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 04:54:03 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191930843.484261.119270@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Oct 8, 11:44 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 10/08/07 09:04, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 7, 11:02 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > >> On Oct 4, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > >>> Question: > >>> In my mind, a religious person has always been a compassionate person > >>> willing to share wealth, help others, live a good honest life and make > >>> sure to protect god's creations (wether humans or animals or the planet). > >>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with > >>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill > >>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping > >>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > >>> Or is it a case of religious persons in the USA supporting one party > >>> that is 99% against what they believe in just because the agree with the > >>> remaining 1% (abortion) ? > >> True Christians are non-violent evangelists but many North American > >> Christians are obsessed with escatology and other end-time nonsense. > >> They think it is OK to destroy the Earth because Christ will return > >> soon and make everything right. > > > you been following revelation lately? > > > 1. when Israel becomes a nation again, the time of the > > gentiles will be fulfilled ... 1948 > > It (Christ's Return) was supposed to happen within 1 generation of > 1948. That's 25-30 years. > > It's been 60. > > > 2. He will gather the jews from the all over the world back, > > and from the land of the north (Moscow, Russia) ... 1988 > > the Berlin wall falls as well as communism and since then > > over 2 million jews have left for Israel ... > > Well, ok. You're right about that one. > > > 3. wars and rumors of wars ... world war I, II, korean, vietnam, > > Iraq 1, Iraq 2, plus many others smaller ones ... Iran? > > Israel and Syria? > > Humans have been fighting wars since the beginning of civilization. > > > 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... > > I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even > from classical Greece. > > > 5. earthquakes in divers places ... happening and increasing ... > > Earthquakes where people go SCUBA swimming? Oh, my! > > Earthquakes along fault zones? Shocking! > > Recording more earthquakes because we've got more (and more > sensitive) seismographs spread across the world? Amazing! > > > 6. old roman empire reforms ... EU > > Somehow, I don't see Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libia, Egypt, > Israel, Jordan and Syria joining the EU. > > > 7. a failing away from the church ... happening > > And a damned good thing, too. > > > when you see these signs, look up, for your redemption is near ... > > > Daniel, Isaiah and other prophecies in the bible confirm > > revelation ... > > Paul expected the return 1,940 years ago. > > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - a falling away from the church is NOT good! the result ... increased crime, divorce, drugs, infanticide (abortion) ... in the 50s and 60s you leave your doors unlocked or windows open and not worry, today, forget it ... the world because of abandoning Gods laws is going down the toilet ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 05:01:32 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191931292.879345.241550@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 7:54 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Oct 8, 11:44 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > > On 10/08/07 09:04, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Oct 7, 11:02 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > >> On Oct 4, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > >>> Question: > > >>> In my mind, a religious person has always been a compassionate person > > >>> willing to share wealth, help others, live a good honest life and make > > >>> sure to protect god's creations (wether humans or animals or the planet). > > >>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with > > >>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill > > >>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping > > >>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > > >>> Or is it a case of religious persons in the USA supporting one party > > >>> that is 99% against what they believe in just because the agree with the > > >>> remaining 1% (abortion) ? > > >> True Christians are non-violent evangelists but many North American > > >> Christians are obsessed with escatology and other end-time nonsense. > > >> They think it is OK to destroy the Earth because Christ will return > > >> soon and make everything right. > > > > you been following revelation lately? > > > > 1. when Israel becomes a nation again, the time of the > > > gentiles will be fulfilled ... 1948 > > > It (Christ's Return) was supposed to happen within 1 generation of > > 1948. That's 25-30 years. > > > It's been 60. > > > > 2. He will gather the jews from the all over the world back, > > > and from the land of the north (Moscow, Russia) ... 1988 > > > the Berlin wall falls as well as communism and since then > > > over 2 million jews have left for Israel ... > > > Well, ok. You're right about that one. > > > > 3. wars and rumors of wars ... world war I, II, korean, vietnam, > > > Iraq 1, Iraq 2, plus many others smaller ones ... Iran? > > > Israel and Syria? > > > Humans have been fighting wars since the beginning of civilization. > > > > 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... > > > I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even > > from classical Greece. > > > > 5. earthquakes in divers places ... happening and increasing ... > > > Earthquakes where people go SCUBA swimming? Oh, my! > > > Earthquakes along fault zones? Shocking! > > > Recording more earthquakes because we've got more (and more > > sensitive) seismographs spread across the world? Amazing! > > > > 6. old roman empire reforms ... EU > > > Somehow, I don't see Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libia, Egypt, > > Israel, Jordan and Syria joining the EU. > > > > 7. a failing away from the church ... happening > > > And a damned good thing, too. > > > > when you see these signs, look up, for your redemption is near ... > > > > Daniel, Isaiah and other prophecies in the bible confirm > > > revelation ... > > > Paul expected the return 1,940 years ago. > > > -- > > Ron Johnson, Jr. > > Jefferson LA USA > > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > a falling away from the church is NOT good! > > the result ... increased crime, divorce, drugs, infanticide > (abortion) ... > in the 50s and 60s you leave your doors unlocked or windows open > and not worry, today, forget it ... > > the world because of abandoning Gods laws is going down > the toilet ... I've heard that Europeans have fallen away from the church more than Americans. Is crime any higher there than in the USA? (You are talking about the USA, right?) AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 05:09:22 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191931762.258678.122940@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 8:01 am, AEF wrote: > On Oct 9, 7:54 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 8, 11:44 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > On 10/08/07 09:04, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > On Oct 7, 11:02 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > > >> On Oct 4, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > > >>> Question: > > > >>> In my mind, a religious person has always been a compassionate person > > > >>> willing to share wealth, help others, live a good honest life and make > > > >>> sure to protect god's creations (wether humans or animals or the planet). > > > >>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with > > > >>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill > > > >>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping > > > >>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > > > >>> Or is it a case of religious persons in the USA supporting one party > > > >>> that is 99% against what they believe in just because the agree with the > > > >>> remaining 1% (abortion) ? > > > >> True Christians are non-violent evangelists but many North American > > > >> Christians are obsessed with escatology and other end-time nonsense. > > > >> They think it is OK to destroy the Earth because Christ will return > > > >> soon and make everything right. > > > > > you been following revelation lately? > > > > > 1. when Israel becomes a nation again, the time of the > > > > gentiles will be fulfilled ... 1948 > > > > It (Christ's Return) was supposed to happen within 1 generation of > > > 1948. That's 25-30 years. > > > > It's been 60. > > > > > 2. He will gather the jews from the all over the world back, > > > > and from the land of the north (Moscow, Russia) ... 1988 > > > > the Berlin wall falls as well as communism and since then > > > > over 2 million jews have left for Israel ... > > > > Well, ok. You're right about that one. > > > > > 3. wars and rumors of wars ... world war I, II, korean, vietnam, > > > > Iraq 1, Iraq 2, plus many others smaller ones ... Iran? > > > > Israel and Syria? > > > > Humans have been fighting wars since the beginning of civilization. > > > > > 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... > > > > I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even > > > from classical Greece. > > > > > 5. earthquakes in divers places ... happening and increasing ... > > > > Earthquakes where people go SCUBA swimming? Oh, my! > > > > Earthquakes along fault zones? Shocking! > > > > Recording more earthquakes because we've got more (and more > > > sensitive) seismographs spread across the world? Amazing! > > > > > 6. old roman empire reforms ... EU > > > > Somehow, I don't see Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libia, Egypt, > > > Israel, Jordan and Syria joining the EU. > > > > > 7. a failing away from the church ... happening > > > > And a damned good thing, too. > > > > > when you see these signs, look up, for your redemption is near ... > > > > > Daniel, Isaiah and other prophecies in the bible confirm > > > > revelation ... > > > > Paul expected the return 1,940 years ago. > > > > -- > > > Ron Johnson, Jr. > > > Jefferson LA USA > > > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > > > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > a falling away from the church is NOT good! > > > the result ... increased crime, divorce, drugs, infanticide > > (abortion) ... > > in the 50s and 60s you leave your doors unlocked or windows open > > and not worry, today, forget it ... > > > the world because of abandoning Gods laws is going down > > the toilet ... > > I've heard that Europeans have fallen away from the church more than > Americans. Is crime any higher there than in the USA? (You are talking > about the USA, right?) > > AEF- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - how about abortion, fornification, adultry in Europe? Not keeping the sabbath day is a sin, and yes Europe has only an estimated 10% of people attending church which is far worse than the US ... so that means Europe is spiritually dead ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:02:20 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <07100907022090_20200296@antinode.org> From: ultradwc@gmail.com > a generation in the bible is 40, 70 or 80 years ... I'm sure that it is. Just as everything there means whatever you need it to mean at the moment. > [...] ... we ARE in the last days ... When you get a firm date, please let us know. Until then could you _PLEASE_ take this drool to some more appropriate forum? (_Any_ other one will do in a pinch.) > the world because of abandoning Gods laws is going down > the toilet ... Yeah, and proper use of capital letters and apostrophes (or is that apostrophe's?) has led the way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 07:32:25 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <6f2OOQQKXQ7I@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1191929149.910453.325220@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > Sticking with the tried and true would end all progress by definition, > no? Exactly! Now you know conservative-speak. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 07:34:23 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article <1191930843.484261.119270@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > a falling away from the church is NOT good! > > the result ... increased crime, divorce, drugs, infanticide > (abortion) ... > in the 50s and 60s you leave your doors unlocked or windows open > and not worry, today, forget it ... > > the world because of abandoning Gods laws is going down > the toilet ... So how come the most religious population in the country is found in prison? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 05:50:40 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <1191934240.272052.91850@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 8:09 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Oct 9, 8:01 am, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Oct 9, 7:54 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Oct 8, 11:44 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > > On 10/08/07 09:04, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > On Oct 7, 11:02 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > > > >> On Oct 4, 12:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > > > >>> Question: > > > > >>> In my mind, a religious person has always been a compassionate person > > > > >>> willing to share wealth, help others, live a good honest life and make > > > > >>> sure to protect god's creations (wether humans or animals or the planet). > > > > >>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with > > > > >>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill > > > > >>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping > > > > >>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > > > > >>> Or is it a case of religious persons in the USA supporting one party > > > > >>> that is 99% against what they believe in just because the agree with the > > > > >>> remaining 1% (abortion) ? > > > > >> True Christians are non-violent evangelists but many North American > > > > >> Christians are obsessed with escatology and other end-time nonsense. > > > > >> They think it is OK to destroy the Earth because Christ will return > > > > >> soon and make everything right. > > > > > > you been following revelation lately? > > > > > > 1. when Israel becomes a nation again, the time of the > > > > > gentiles will be fulfilled ... 1948 > > > > > It (Christ's Return) was supposed to happen within 1 generation of > > > > 1948. That's 25-30 years. > > > > > It's been 60. > > > > > > 2. He will gather the jews from the all over the world back, > > > > > and from the land of the north (Moscow, Russia) ... 1988 > > > > > the Berlin wall falls as well as communism and since then > > > > > over 2 million jews have left for Israel ... > > > > > Well, ok. You're right about that one. > > > > > > 3. wars and rumors of wars ... world war I, II, korean, vietnam, > > > > > Iraq 1, Iraq 2, plus many others smaller ones ... Iran? > > > > > Israel and Syria? > > > > > Humans have been fighting wars since the beginning of civilization. > > > > > > 4. children disrespectful to their elders ... happening ... > > > > > I've read similar complaints from the 18th and 19th centuries. Even > > > > from classical Greece. > > > > > > 5. earthquakes in divers places ... happening and increasing ... > > > > > Earthquakes where people go SCUBA swimming? Oh, my! > > > > > Earthquakes along fault zones? Shocking! > > > > > Recording more earthquakes because we've got more (and more > > > > sensitive) seismographs spread across the world? Amazing! > > > > > > 6. old roman empire reforms ... EU > > > > > Somehow, I don't see Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libia, Egypt, > > > > Israel, Jordan and Syria joining the EU. > > > > > > 7. a failing away from the church ... happening > > > > > And a damned good thing, too. > > > > > > when you see these signs, look up, for your redemption is near ... > > > > > > Daniel, Isaiah and other prophecies in the bible confirm > > > > > revelation ... > > > > > Paul expected the return 1,940 years ago. > > > > > -- > > > > Ron Johnson, Jr. > > > > Jefferson LA USA > > > > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > > > > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > a falling away from the church is NOT good! > > > > the result ... increased crime, divorce, drugs, infanticide > > > (abortion) ... > > > in the 50s and 60s you leave your doors unlocked or windows open > > > and not worry, today, forget it ... > > > > the world because of abandoning Gods laws is going down > > > the toilet ... > > > I've heard that Europeans have fallen away from the church more than > > Americans. Is crime any higher there than in the USA? (You are talking > > about the USA, right?) > > > AEF- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > how about abortion, fornification, adultry in Europe? That's a circular argument, Bob. > > Not keeping the sabbath day is a sin, and yes Europe > has only an estimated 10% of people attending church > which is far worse than the US ... > > so that means Europe is spiritually dead ... You said crime, not sin. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 08:59:52 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: On 10/09/07 06:51, ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: [snip] > > a generation in the bible is 40, 70 or 80 years ... Well that's damned convenient. > it does not say it would happen a generation after Israel becomes > a nation again ... it says when the fig tree (Israel) blossoms, that > generation will see the end ... maybe Israel retaking Jerusalem > is what God is reffering to ... or maybe the 70 or 80 years added > on to Israel becoming a nation is that happening, but when Israel > became a nation again, that signalled the end of the time of the > gentiles and started the countdown ... we ARE in the last days ... Paul/Saul said they were in the "last days" back around 50 AD. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:04:17 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: On 10/09/07 07:09, ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: [snip] > > Not keeping the sabbath day is a sin, and yes Europe Besides Judaism, only in (I _think_) Jehovah's Witness, LDS and some really tiny, *really* fringe Protestant groups is "not keeping the Sabbath" (which, after all, is a Saturday) considered a sin. > has only an estimated 10% of people attending church > which is far worse than the US ... > > so that means Europe is spiritually dead ... Except for all the Muslims. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:05:20 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article <1191930773.642802.320220@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Oct 9, 7:22 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC303B...@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>, "O'Brien Paddy" writes: >> >> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >> >> >------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B >> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:w...@fom.fgan.de] >> >Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM >> >To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? >> >=20 >> >Hello, >> >> >I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's >> >the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and >> >times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should >> >do, what we can do to prevent the earth. >> >AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians >> >should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can >> >do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. >> >Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to >> >stop the global warming. >> >> >Best regards Rudolf Wingert >> >> >****** >> >> >I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= >> > readers. I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it difficult = >> >to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use. The only way I = >> >can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody pain. >> >> >Rudolf, >> >> >I agree with your general sentiments. However, if there is a global warmin= >> >g problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are America (U= >> >SA) and China. The Green party (in various countries) also seems happy to = >> >fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spout off abou= >> >t reducing carbon emissions. >> >> >A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources. Take wind powe= >> >r as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional powe= >> >r sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies. Conventional power = >> >sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to be spinning= >> > throughout the period of reliance on wind. Ecologists are also concerned = >> >about the number of birds being killed by this method of power generation. >> >> There are means being developed to store the energy generated from wind so that >> a continuous supply can be maintained. Threre are many different schemes being >> developed from flow battery storage see >> >> http://www.science.org.au/nova/newscientist/037ns_001.htm >> >> to >> >> compressed air storage in a sandstone aquifer >> >> see >> >> http://goodshit.phlap.net/2007/10/post_15962.html > >Yeah, that's a real encouraging domain name there! '-) ;-) I really >wouldn't take anything seriously from a Web site with a URL like that. > As I said below it is just a copy of the New Scientist article. Unfortunately unless you subscribe to New Scientist you cannot see the full article online at the New scientist site - hence it seemed better to quote a url (even if the name is a bit suspect) which does display a full copy. The article is on the New Scientist site at http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/energy-fuels/mg19526231.700-rocks-could-be-novel-store-for-wind-energy.html Similarly the flow battery article is available to subscribers on the New Scientist site at http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/mg19325861.400-bank-for-wind-power.html >> >> (the latter article a copy of a recent New Scientist article mentions some of >> the other storage solutions being developed). >> >> >The most economic and "carbon-friendly" generation of electrical power is n= >> >uclear, which some countries like Australia eschew (though this might chang= >> >e if the Liberal party stays in power). This does currently have problems = >> >in long-term disposal. But the fission/fusion (I forget which is which - I= >> >'m a number cruncher not an engineer) technological investigations will hop= >> >efully resolve this. >> >> Fusion appears to be relatively clean but still appears to be someway off. > >This has ALWAYS been true of fusion. > Although I agree that past predictions have been rather optimistic I still think we are edging closer to getting fusion working. But realistically it's probably still something for the middle to the end of the century rather than something which will be able to make a contribution in the near future. >> Fission not only suffers from the waste problem but is not a solution that can >> be used throughout the world because of the potential for redirection of >> civilian nuclear energy programs into nuclear weapon programs. >> If you want Iran to cut it's C02 emissions then if you promote nuclear as a >> solution then you should support Iran's development of a civilian nuclear >> power program. > >I'd worry mostly about redirection into weapons. What's worse, a very >occasional Chernobyl (assuming worst non-weapons case) or turning >Earth into Venus (assuming Global Warming is really that bad and I'm >not saying it's one way or another)? > I'm pretty sure there is practically zero chance of Global warming running away to the extent it has on Venus. The Earth has often been warmer than the present interglacial. The point about global warming is that our civilisation has developed in present conditions with our cities being built on present coastlines etc. Life on earth will adapt with some species moving and some species going extinct but nature's natural adjustments may not be pleasant for Humanity and our relatively fragile civilisation. As to redirection into weapons. The nuclear weapons genie has been out of the bottle for half a century. The Nuclear Non-proliferation treaty has only slowed it's spread and doesn't look like it can last much longer. (The non-nuclear nations signing the NPT were promised help in developing civilian nuclear power in return for not developing nuclear weapons and the nuclear nations were supposed to not pass on nuclear weapons technology, cut back on such weapons and begin negotiating a global ban on nuclear weapons. The nuclear nations have instead passed on nuclear weapons technology to their friends eg Israel, continued to renew their nuclear weapons and failed to start any such negotiations. Add to that non-signatories getting away scot free with developing nuclear weapons and the NPT looks practically dead. ). David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >I think we just have too many people on the planet. Not that I >recommend killing anyone, but policies shouldn't promote population >growth. All these alternate energy sources are either lame, too >expensive, or both. > >Reducing light pollution would help save energy AND improve the >quality of life at night for everyone. See www.darksky.org for more >info. > >> >> David Webb >> Security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University>P.S. The religious world is now fast becoming Muslim, particularly those w= >> >ith extreme values. > >AEF >[...] > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:07:09 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: On 10/09/07 06:25, AEF wrote: > On Oct 8, 11:57 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 10/08/07 08:10, Bob Koehler wrote: >> >>> In article , JF Mezei writes: >>>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with >>>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill >>>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping >>>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? > > Ah, extreme prejudice against America still further even also yet > again, eh? Everyone else is a saint, eh? What????? [snip] >> It's called "sticking with the tried and true", whereas liberal >> activists want to remake society over and over, based on pie-in- >> the-sky feel-good theories. > > Tell me how anything ever got tried. > > Sticking with the tried and true would end all progress by definition, > no? Excellent point. Except that "conservatives" distinguish between social progress and technological progress. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 09:23:57 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <2aMOi.759$la2.160@newsfe17.lga> On 10/09/07 06:22, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC303BC75@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>, "O'Brien Paddy" writes: >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:win@fom.fgan.de] >> Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? >> =20 >> Hello, >> >> I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's >> the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and >> times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should >> do, what we can do to prevent the earth. >> AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians >> should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can >> do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. >> Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to >> stop the global warming. >> >> Best regards Rudolf Wingert >> >> >> ****** >> >> I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= >> readers. I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it difficult = >> to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use. The only way I = >> can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody pain. >> >> Rudolf, >> >> I agree with your general sentiments. However, if there is a global warmin= >> g problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are America (U= >> SA) and China. The Green party (in various countries) also seems happy to = >> fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spout off abou= >> t reducing carbon emissions. >> >> A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources. Take wind powe= >> r as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional powe= >> r sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies. Conventional power = >> sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to be spinning= >> throughout the period of reliance on wind. Ecologists are also concerned = >> about the number of birds being killed by this method of power generation. >> > > There are means being developed to store the energy generated from wind so that > a continuous supply can be maintained. Threre are many different schemes being > developed from flow battery storage see > > http://www.science.org.au/nova/newscientist/037ns_001.htm > > to > > compressed air storage in a sandstone aquifer What about having the windmills spin large flywheels? Is that impossible because wind doesn't have the momentum to spin heavy flywheels? Anyway, solar is the way to go. As soon as PV (or it's successor) gets cheap enough for individuals and small businesses to afford them. >> > Fusion appears to be relatively clean but still appears to be someway off. > Fission not only suffers from the waste problem but is not a solution that can > be used throughout the world because of the potential for redirection of > civilian nuclear energy programs into nuclear weapon programs. > If you want Iran to cut it's C02 emissions then if you promote nuclear as a > solution then you should support Iran's development of a civilian nuclear > power program. If Iran *really* wants a bomb, I don't see how anything short of armed conflict (including so-called-surgical air strikes) could prevent it. Any other course of action, like sanctions, will do to Iran what they did to Iraq: hurt "the people" and create an oil black market that enriched the entrenched power structure. Are there any fission technologies that are "un-amenable" to dual- use conversion? Maybe the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 10:08:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: On 10/09/07 09:05, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: [snip] > > As to redirection into weapons. The nuclear weapons genie has been out of the > bottle for half a century. The Nuclear Non-proliferation treaty has only > slowed it's spread and doesn't look like it can last much longer. > (The non-nuclear nations signing the NPT were promised help in developing > civilian nuclear power in return for not developing nuclear weapons and the > nuclear nations were supposed to not pass on nuclear weapons technology, > cut back on such weapons and begin negotiating a global ban on nuclear weapons. > The nuclear nations have instead passed on nuclear weapons technology to their > friends eg Israel, continued to renew their nuclear weapons and failed to start > any such negotiations. Add to that non-signatories getting away scot free with > developing nuclear weapons and the NPT looks practically dead. > ). The US (and Russia, I think) has been reducing it's "special weapons" stockpike for more than 15 years. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:30:03 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: >On 10/09/07 06:25, AEF wrote: >> On Oct 8, 11:57 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: >>> On 10/08/07 08:10, Bob Koehler wrote: >>> >>>> In article , JF Mezei writes: >>>>> How come in the USA, religious persons are most often associated with >>>>> the exact opposite ? right wing conservatives who want wars that kill >>>>> hundreds of thousands of humans, help large business instead of helping >>>>> the poor, don't care about polluting the planet etc ? >> >> Ah, extreme prejudice against America still further even also yet >> again, eh? Everyone else is a saint, eh? > >What????? > >[snip] >>> It's called "sticking with the tried and true", whereas liberal >>> activists want to remake society over and over, based on pie-in- >>> the-sky feel-good theories. >> >> Tell me how anything ever got tried. >> >> Sticking with the tried and true would end all progress by definition, >> no? > >Excellent point. Except that "conservatives" distinguish between >social progress and technological progress. You mean tried and true social institutions such as slavery or rule by an absolute monarch. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University > >-- >Ron Johnson, Jr. >Jefferson LA USA > >Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:59:08 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: In article <2aMOi.759$la2.160@newsfe17.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: >On 10/09/07 06:22, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <0A7046B0A95F2B41B3712F0C5FD1CDC303BC75@ex-tg2-pr.corporate.transgrid.local>, "O'Brien Paddy" writes: >>> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >>> >>> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C80A4E.7CFB117B >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Rudolf Wingert [mailto:win@fom.fgan.de] >>> Sent: Tue 10/9/2007 3:48 PM >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? >>> =20 >>> Hello, >>> >>> I think, that the global warming is not a hoax. But the question is: what's >>> the part of mankind and what is normal (we did have a lot of Ice Ages and >>> times where it was very warm). Regardless of reason, we (the mankind) should >>> do, what we can do to prevent the earth. >>> AFAIK God's will is, that the whole mankind becomes believer. So Christians >>> should live that this will be seen. IMHO, they have to do, all what they can >>> do to prevent the earth. What could it be? Don't use your car if you can. >>> Buy less powerful PCs. Don't support wars, etc. Search for the best way to >>> stop the global warming. >>> >>> Best regards Rudolf Wingert >>> >>> >>> ****** >>> >>> I'll apologise up front if this comes over in a way not suited to newsgroup= >>> readers. I am similar to Tom Linden and Kerry Main and find it difficult = >>> to control the blasted Microsoft stuff I am forced to use. The only way I = >>> can get my mail now is via Outlook Web Access and it's a bloody pain. >>> >>> Rudolf, >>> >>> I agree with your general sentiments. However, if there is a global warmin= >>> g problem, the biggest culprits who seem to be doing nothing are America (U= >>> SA) and China. The Green party (in various countries) also seems happy to = >>> fly their politicians here, there and everywhere for them to spout off abou= >>> t reducing carbon emissions. >>> >>> A hobby-horse of mine is the reliance on renewable sources. Take wind powe= >>> r as an example, there must be enough spinning reserve of conventional powe= >>> r sources in order to pick up load when the wind dies. Conventional power = >>> sources cannnot be brought on line immediately so often need to be spinning= >>> throughout the period of reliance on wind. Ecologists are also concerned = >>> about the number of birds being killed by this method of power generation. >>> >> >> There are means being developed to store the energy generated from wind so that >> a continuous supply can be maintained. Threre are many different schemes being >> developed from flow battery storage see >> >> http://www.science.org.au/nova/newscientist/037ns_001.htm >> >> to >> >> compressed air storage in a sandstone aquifer > >What about having the windmills spin large flywheels? Is that >impossible because wind doesn't have the momentum to spin heavy >flywheels? > No it's one of the schemes being looked at - the other link http://goodshit.phlap.net/2007/10/post_15962.html in it's copy of the New Scientist article on compressed air storage mentions this at the end " FLYWHEEL ENERGY STORAGE: Using electrical motors to spin up a flywheel to as much as 80,000 rpm can store up to 150 kilowatt-hours as kinetic energy. " Another nice one is using the electricity to split water molecules to produce hydrogen which can be stored and then used to generate electricity when neeeded. >Anyway, solar is the way to go. As soon as PV (or it's successor) >gets cheap enough for individuals and small businesses to afford them. > As with Wind someone will need to store the energy generated to deal with nighttime demand or cloudy days. Individuals can sell excess capacity to the grid which can then store it for later use using the same mechanisms being developed for Wind. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >>> >> Fusion appears to be relatively clean but still appears to be someway off. >> Fission not only suffers from the waste problem but is not a solution that can >> be used throughout the world because of the potential for redirection of >> civilian nuclear energy programs into nuclear weapon programs. >> If you want Iran to cut it's C02 emissions then if you promote nuclear as a >> solution then you should support Iran's development of a civilian nuclear >> power program. > >If Iran *really* wants a bomb, I don't see how anything short of >armed conflict (including so-called-surgical air strikes) could >prevent it. Any other course of action, like sanctions, will do to >Iran what they did to Iraq: hurt "the people" and create an oil >black market that enriched the entrenched power structure. > > >Are there any fission technologies that are "un-amenable" to dual- >use conversion? Maybe the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor? > >-- >Ron Johnson, Jr. >Jefferson LA USA > >Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:54:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: <329d5$470bb25c$cef8887a$32601@TEKSAVVY.COM> re: Boob's discussion on the second coming. The day of recknoning has come already. It was June 25 2001. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 12:18:22 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: still not convinced global warming a hoax? Message-ID: On 10/09/07 10:30, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: [snip] >> Excellent point. Except that "conservatives" distinguish between >> social progress and technological progress. > > You mean tried and true social institutions such as > slavery or rule by an absolute monarch. Sadly true. Conserving the status quo. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 07:27:29 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: In article <1191873389.045301.188670@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, Mike writes: > We have a bunch of in-house applications written in C, running on > Alpha OpenVMS V8.3. These applications use the system service sys > $trnlnm to read group logicals, which contain options controlling > their behaviour (e.g. logging level verbosity). The logicals can be > changed on the command line by privileged users. > > We are looking to port some of these applications to Solaris 10, and > as a UNIX novice, I am struggling to find something equivalent in > Solaris to the OpenVMS group logicals. Can anyone here suggest an > equivalent? If you're doing explicit $trnlnm on VMS, then you could try putting the data in shell symbols (aka environment variables) and doing an explicit getenv(). But you won't get the restriction that only privileged iusers can change them and you will have to make sure that the variables are set in the context of the process. Other approaches to simulating logical names under UNIX in this case mostly revolve around putting data in files. You might be able to set up something where only some users could change the hard link to the file. Or you can buy a comercial VMS porting tool from Boston Business or Sector Seven, and they've actually made logical names work for you. But of course, the real answer is to port to OpenVMS IA64 instead of Solaris. ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2007 12:53:14 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <5n1btqFftfulU1@mid.individual.net> In article <470AE3ED.D2421F5B@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > Mike wrote: >> >> We have a bunch of in-house applications written in C, running on >> Alpha OpenVMS V8.3. These applications use the system service sys >> $trnlnm to read group logicals, which contain options controlling >> their behaviour (e.g. logging level verbosity). The logicals can be >> changed on the command line by privileged users. >> >> We are looking to port some of these applications to Solaris 10, and >> as a UNIX novice, I am struggling to find something equivalent in >> Solaris to the OpenVMS group logicals. Can anyone here suggest an >> equivalent? > > As others have mentioned, logical names are rather unique to VMS and its > predecessors. Environment symbols, symlinks, disk files, ... these are all > potential substitutes. Others probably exist. > > Though, to answer your question more directly, I believe there is a getenv() > function built-into UN*X C that will return the strings/values represented by > environment variables. That's about all I know about it. See "man getenv" - that > might produce something semi-useful. > The big problem I see with most of the Unix advice given people here when they bring this up is trying to do something on Unix in a VMS way. The correct answer is to define what the task you wish to accomplish is and then come up with the correct way to do it under Unix, which may not (and probably won't) even resemble the way it was done on VMS. One way isn't better than the other, only different. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 06:07:30 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: <1191935250.381005.178240@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Oct 9, 8:53 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <470AE3ED.D2421...@spam.comcast.net>, > David J Dachtera writes: > > > > > Mike wrote: > > >> We have a bunch of in-house applications written in C, running on > >> Alpha OpenVMS V8.3. These applications use the system service sys > >> $trnlnm to read group logicals, which contain options controlling > >> their behaviour (e.g. logging level verbosity). The logicals can be > >> changed on the command line by privileged users. > > >> We are looking to port some of these applications to Solaris 10, and > >> as a UNIX novice, I am struggling to find something equivalent in > >> Solaris to the OpenVMS group logicals. Can anyone here suggest an > >> equivalent? > > > As others have mentioned, logical names are rather unique to VMS and its > > predecessors. Environment symbols, symlinks, disk files, ... these are all > > potential substitutes. Others probably exist. > > > Though, to answer your question more directly, I believe there is a getenv() > > function built-into UN*X C that will return the strings/values represented by > > environment variables. That's about all I know about it. See "man getenv" - that > > might produce something semi-useful. > > The big problem I see with most of the Unix advice given people here > when they bring this up is trying to do something on Unix in a VMS > way. The correct answer is to define what the task you wish to > accomplish is and then come up with the correct way to do it under > Unix, which may not (and probably won't) even resemble the way it > was done on VMS. One way isn't better than the other, only different. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Bill, Having spent many years studying OS architecture, it is not merely a question of alternative ways of doing things, it is a question of weaknesses in underlying paradigms. Each OS has its underlying design philosophy. Some architectural decisions are enabling, some are hobbling, and some are neutral, albeit different. In the case of OpenVMS logicals (which originated with VAX/VMS; the RSX-11 family received logical support well after VAX/VMS introduced the concept), it is a facility that does not exist in the *IX universe. This is particularly true in the context of how seamlessly they are integrated throughout the system. Environment variables are normally considered the "replacement" technology in *IX (and Windows), but they do not have any concept of hierarchical inheritance, which the enabling concept behind hierarchical defaulting, one of the most powerful features of logical names (a footnote: I discussed the use of hierarchical defaulting and related techniques in a paper that appeared in the OpenVMS Technical Journal, Volume 3; see http://www.rlgsc.com/publications/vmstechjournal/inheritance.html ). The protected nature of the group logical name table is one of the details that is not available on *IX. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 06:59:36 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: UNIX equivalent of VMS group logicals? Message-ID: On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 06:07:30 -0700, Bob Gezelter wrote: > On Oct 9, 8:53 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <470AE3ED.D2421...@spam.comcast.net>, >> David J Dachtera writes: >> >> >> >> > Mike wrote: >> >> >> We have a bunch of in-house applications written in C, running on >> >> Alpha OpenVMS V8.3. These applications use the system service sys >> >> $trnlnm to read group logicals, which contain options controlling >> >> their behaviour (e.g. logging level verbosity). The logicals can be >> >> changed on the command line by privileged users. >> >> >> We are looking to port some of these applications to Solaris 10, and >> >> as a UNIX novice, I am struggling to find something equivalent in >> >> Solaris to the OpenVMS group logicals. Can anyone here suggest an >> >> equivalent? >> >> > As others have mentioned, logical names are rather unique to VMS and >> its >> > predecessors. Environment symbols, symlinks, disk files, ... these >> are all >> > potential substitutes. Others probably exist. >> >> > Though, to answer your question more directly, I believe there is a >> getenv() >> > function built-into UN*X C that will return the strings/values >> represented by >> > environment variables. That's about all I know about it. See "man >> getenv" - that >> > might produce something semi-useful. >> >> The big problem I see with most of the Unix advice given people here >> when they bring this up is trying to do something on Unix in a VMS >> way. The correct answer is to define what the task you wish to >> accomplish is and then come up with the correct way to do it under >> Unix, which may not (and probably won't) even resemble the way it >> was done on VMS. One way isn't better than the other, only different. >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three >> wolves >> b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > > Bill, > > Having spent many years studying OS architecture, it is not merely a > question of alternative ways of doing things, it is a question of > weaknesses in underlying paradigms. > > Each OS has its underlying design philosophy. Some architectural > decisions are enabling, some are hobbling, and some are neutral, > albeit different. In the case of OpenVMS logicals (which originated > with VAX/VMS; the RSX-11 family received logical support well after > VAX/VMS introduced the concept), it is a facility that does not exist > in the *IX universe. This is particularly true in the context of how > seamlessly they are integrated throughout the system. > > Environment variables are normally considered the "replacement" > technology in *IX (and Windows), but they do not have any concept of > hierarchical inheritance, which the enabling concept behind > hierarchical defaulting, one of the most powerful features of logical > names (a footnote: I discussed the use of hierarchical defaulting and > related techniques in a paper that appeared in the OpenVMS Technical > Journal, Volume 3; see > http://www.rlgsc.com/publications/vmstechjournal/inheritance.html > ). > > The protected nature of the group logical name table is one of the > details that is not available on *IX. I think it is doable, the question is wht hasn't it been done? > > - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.552 ************************