INFO-VAX Wed, 07 Nov 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 610 Contents: Re: @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP SHOW : no output using sysman Re: Announcing: gSoap for OpenVMS blog Re: Announcing: gSoap for OpenVMS blog CDD-E-NOFREEPAG ? Re: How do I write a SFTP SSH client Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary RE: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Re: IO TIME vs COMputable Re: IO TIME vs COMputable Re: Name that VAX/VMS version based on banner Re: Unknown BACKUP qualifier in VMS 8.2 Re: Unknown BACKUP qualifier in VMS 8.2 Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:00:36 +0000 (UTC) From: Dale Dellutri Subject: Re: @SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP SHOW : no output using sysman Message-ID: On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:49:53 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote: > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > > > > In article , Dale Dellutri writes: > > >If I do the command locally, it works on each of my > > >non-clustered systems: > > >[UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM] > > >But if I do it using sysman to the systems, > > >there's no output: > > > > > >Why doesn't it produce output? > > > > Because the UTC$TIME_SETUP.COM does a DEASSIGN SYS$OUTPUT and kills > > the logical the SMISERVER sets to get the output of the called procedure. > > > > Not the only bug of the SMISERVER... > Dale, > Try this: > SYSMAN> do spawn @sys$manager:utc$time_setup show > That produces output for me, with the usual SYSMAN distortion (blank > lines are supressed, leading/trailing spaces may be trimmed). Yes, that worked. Thanks. -- Dale Dellutri (lose the Q's) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 21:58:23 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Announcing: gSoap for OpenVMS blog Message-ID: Hi Jan-Erik, [Before I go further; can we not please just discuss photos of the BF2000 spinning on a web-page while the Rdb-sourced monthly/regional sales-figures manipulate Flash pie/bar charts on another section of the browser? Images stored in the Rdb database along with the textual data? Backed-up in synch?] Ok, oh well; I guess Planet-Maher is destined to be a lonely place :-( > Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients > to WEB-services servers, I guess... And who are they and what are they doing *exactly*? I am not a troglodyte here, I do understand the concept and the reality; what I'm trying to do is separate the Gartner report (CV-Builder) fiction from what is really happening at the VMS coal face. Are you really trying to pull down Google Maps to your VAX Cobol programs, or is there a certain manufacturer that mandates SOAP interoperability? It's just that I've worked for years with DECnet then X.25 then FTP then TCP/IP Socket middleware, in London financial exchanges all the way to Dickie local governments, and I don't really understand this amazing "new" problem that your solving. Here's the crazy thing; I'm actually *asking* you for a *specific* requirements-specification! There's certainly no shortage of SOLUTIONIZING barrow-boys who will relieve you of your cash, telling you what you *should* be doing for their own ends, but I on the other hand wish to understand the problem/requirements in more detail. I've personally seen suppliers like Toyota regularly send 1MB+ SOAP/XML messages down the line for reasons only known to themselves (and Gartner I suppose?) and yet I've implemented a very effective (although still crap) inter-car-dealer Spare Parts sales-system with plain old TCP/IP Sockets. But what do the Jan-Erik's and Michaels of this world really want? My *guess* is that you need this XML/RPC in SOAP-drag thing where you can say:- ?XML Bollocks Transitional 0.5 Look like SOAP? 123 and recieve a:- 33 followed by lots of CRLF bollocks. . . Am I pretty close to the mark here??? So how much of the gSOAP source-code footprint, do you really think is involved in solving that little requirement eh? 1 maybe 2 percent? What the fuck do you think the rest of the Trojen-Horse is for??? Which part of that requirement involved a new HTTP Web Server eh? (On top of WASD, Apache, OSU, T3 Applet Uploader) Where is the gSOAP Tomcat? Where is the thread-pool, the server-pool, the min-this the max-that? The server Containers? Are you still there Jan-Erik? Hello, Hello, anyone home??? > > So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for > > VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,... > > It is. What is the problem with that ? > (And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.) My recollection of the beatitudes is a little shakey but wasn't there a "Blessed are the gullible for they will be buggered by VMS's IMM"? As Inigo Montoya would say "Let me explain. .there is no time; let me summarize":- You have asked for the Artic Blue SportsWagon and this really "nice" guy has told you that you actually want the WagonQueen Family Truxter. And you are now jumping up and down saying "I really love the metallic-pea!". Maybe here's a better analogy: - You're sick of illegal Indonesian fisherman pilfering our waters off the Northwest coast and you've asked the federal govt for help. To which they have responded with a purchase order for a Nimitz-Class air-craft carrier. Now your eyes are bulging and you're nursing a semi 'cos you get to strafe those abolone-rustlers every morning, but strangely enough, the hidden agenda of the poisonous bastards involved in the solution-spec doesn't seen to bother you? That is until they launch a pre-emtive strike on Jakarta. Anyway Jan-Erik, if you really want a SOAP client RTL then I can see no reason why HP or Freeware doesn't provide one. I don't know C/OpenSSL or I'd give you one myself. (Give Mark Daniel a decent fee and I'm sure you'll have one in a month) But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really want: - WS-Addressing, WS-ReliableMessaging, WS-Coordination, WS-AtomicTransaction, WS-Security, WS-Security Policy, WS-Trust, WS-SecureConversation, WS-Policy, WS-MetadataExchange It's up to you. . . Cheers Richard Maher PS. Go on! ask those fuckers what their WS-AT solution is for VMS! Ask them about latent ACMS support for TIP! Ask them about Tier3 support for TIP! What would you image the difference between WS-Coordinationa and WS-AT to be? Ah who gives a shit? You clearly don't :-( "Jan-Erik Söderholm" wrote in message news:BiFXi.12998$ZA.8385@newsb.telia.net... > Richard Maher wrote: > > > > Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers > > > > Really? Which VMS customers and why? > > Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients > to WEB-services servers, I guess... > > > So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for > > VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,... > > It is. What is the problem with that ? > (And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.) > > And not having to use ODS5 and install Java kit is/could > be a big plus, depending on your actual environment. > > Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:26:05 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Announcing: gSoap for OpenVMS blog Message-ID: Richard Maher wrote: [A lot of crap included after my post...] I realy do not see why I should bother at all, but... What we have : - A public (auction) site that have published an "API" to be able to run own applications against their system. - The API is XML/SOAP based. Now tell me, what would *you*, Mr Maher, use to access these services from your own VMS system ? Whould you write XML/SOAP code all from scratch ? With my current knowledge, I thought the gSOAP kit would fit in nicely. *I* do not have *any* influence on the selected technology at the actual site, of course. Finely, your Tier3 platform *could* be a possible alternative at another site where both VMS server and PC clients are in-house, but the tone in your post aren't helping your business, that's for sure. Or, on a second thought, I find your post offending enought to not concider Tier3 at all... Best Regards, Jan-Erik. > Hi Jan-Erik, > > [Before I go further; can we not please just discuss photos of the BF2000 > spinning on a web-page while the Rdb-sourced monthly/regional sales-figures > manipulate Flash pie/bar charts on another section of the browser? Images > stored in the Rdb database along with the textual data? Backed-up in synch?] > > Ok, oh well; I guess Planet-Maher is destined to be a lonely place :-( > >> Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients >> to WEB-services servers, I guess... > > And who are they and what are they doing *exactly*? I am not a troglodyte > here, I do understand the concept and the reality; what I'm trying to do is > separate the Gartner report (CV-Builder) fiction from what is really > happening at the VMS coal face. Are you really trying to pull down Google > Maps to your VAX Cobol programs, or is there a certain manufacturer that > mandates SOAP interoperability? > > It's just that I've worked for years with DECnet then X.25 then FTP then > TCP/IP Socket middleware, in London financial exchanges all the way to > Dickie local governments, and I don't really understand this amazing "new" > problem that your solving. > > Here's the crazy thing; I'm actually *asking* you for a *specific* > requirements-specification! There's certainly no shortage of SOLUTIONIZING > barrow-boys who will relieve you of your cash, telling you what you *should* > be doing for their own ends, but I on the other hand wish to understand the > problem/requirements in more detail. > > I've personally seen suppliers like Toyota regularly send 1MB+ SOAP/XML > messages down the line for reasons only known to themselves (and Gartner I > suppose?) and yet I've implemented a very effective (although still crap) > inter-car-dealer Spare Parts sales-system with plain old TCP/IP Sockets. But > what do the Jan-Erik's and Michaels of this world really want? > > My *guess* is that you need this XML/RPC in SOAP-drag thing where you can > say:- > > ?XML Bollocks Transitional 0.5 Look like SOAP? > > 123 > > > and recieve a:- > > > 33 > followed by lots of CRLF bollocks. . . > > Am I pretty close to the mark here??? > > So how much of the gSOAP source-code footprint, do you really think is > involved in solving that little requirement eh? 1 maybe 2 percent? > > What the fuck do you think the rest of the Trojen-Horse is for??? > > Which part of that requirement involved a new HTTP Web Server eh? (On top of > WASD, Apache, OSU, T3 Applet Uploader) > > Where is the gSOAP Tomcat? Where is the thread-pool, the server-pool, the > min-this the max-that? The server Containers? Are you still there Jan-Erik? > Hello, Hello, anyone home??? > >>> So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for >> > VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,... >> >> It is. What is the problem with that ? >> (And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.) > > My recollection of the beatitudes is a little shakey but wasn't there a > "Blessed are the gullible for they will be buggered by VMS's IMM"? > > As Inigo Montoya would say "Let me explain. .there is no time; let me > summarize":- > > You have asked for the Artic Blue SportsWagon and this really "nice" guy has > told you that you actually want the WagonQueen Family Truxter. And you are > now jumping up and down saying "I really love the metallic-pea!". > > Maybe here's a better analogy: - You're sick of illegal Indonesian fisherman > pilfering our waters off the Northwest coast and you've asked the federal > govt for help. To which they have responded with a purchase order for a > Nimitz-Class air-craft carrier. Now your eyes are bulging and you're nursing > a semi 'cos you get to strafe those abolone-rustlers every morning, but > strangely enough, the hidden agenda of the poisonous bastards involved in > the solution-spec doesn't seen to bother you? That is until they launch a > pre-emtive strike on Jakarta. > > Anyway Jan-Erik, if you really want a SOAP client RTL then I can see no > reason why HP or Freeware doesn't provide one. I don't know C/OpenSSL or I'd > give you one myself. (Give Mark Daniel a decent fee and I'm sure you'll have > one in a month) > > But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really want: - WS-Addressing, > WS-ReliableMessaging, WS-Coordination, WS-AtomicTransaction, WS-Security, > WS-Security Policy, WS-Trust, WS-SecureConversation, WS-Policy, > WS-MetadataExchange > > It's up to you. . . > > Cheers Richard Maher > > PS. Go on! ask those fuckers what their WS-AT solution is for VMS! Ask them > about latent ACMS support for TIP! Ask them about Tier3 support for TIP! > What would you image the difference between WS-Coordinationa and WS-AT to > be? > > Ah who gives a shit? You clearly don't :-( > > "Jan-Erik Söderholm" wrote in message > news:BiFXi.12998$ZA.8385@newsb.telia.net... >> Richard Maher wrote: >> >>>> Web services (SOAP) is a big deal right now for our customers >>> Really? Which VMS customers and why? >> Any customer who wants their VMS systems to act as clients >> to WEB-services servers, I guess... >> >>> So some would have us believe (...) that gSOAP is for >> > VMS 3GLs to call remote SOAP routines,... >> >> It is. What is the problem with that ? >> (And from what I understand, WSIT is of limited use there.) >> >> And not having to use ODS5 and install Java kit is/could >> be a big plus, depending on your actual environment. >> >> Jan-Erik. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 06:27:48 -0800 From: Brucey Subject: CDD-E-NOFREEPAG ? Message-ID: <1194445668.116079.320110@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> Has anyone seen this before ? Or offer any ideas on how to resolve it ? 0188 DEFINE RECORD LMETPU1$COPY.WS_LMC_RTU03_02 1 %CDDL-E-CDDERROR, error encountered while creating record %CDD-E-NOFREEPAG, dictionary file is full %CDDL-E-RECNOTCRE, error in record definition -- record not created Many thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:29:41 -0800 From: Jose Baars Subject: Re: How do I write a SFTP SSH client Message-ID: <1194460181.114338.232050@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> I have been looking into more or less the same problem. Writing your own FTP client was doable, although harder than you would think at first glance, as some FTP servers will hang for unknown reasons, and you do want to detect this. I needed a callable SSH filetransfer library, to be called from C or COBOL, and a sftp client that made it possible to login to a remote system in batch using sftp using password in stead of public key authentication, something the TCP/IP services sftp client will not let you do. I did not have any luck in finding a usable public domain SSH library to use as the basis for this callable SSH library, and I really didn't want to try to implement the SSH protocol myself, to be honest I find the RFC's rather hard to understand, and what I understood at times contradictory. Hopefully you have more luck, and probably you are smarter than I am :-) I did find a couple of Java SSH libraries that allowed me to build a SFTP client that accepts both public key and password to be used as authentication to a remote system. This is were I found these Java libraries: - http://sourceforge.net/projects/jsch/ - http://www.ganymed.ethz.ch/ssh2/ Hope this helps, Jose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:07:27 -0500 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Message-ID: <13j3hl01adudqe0@corp.supernews.com> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=202801794 -- Syltrem http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en français) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:21:35 -0500 From: "Farrell, Michael" Subject: RE: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Message-ID: <8330CD39B64C934DBE63CB6D4CEE37D02F997F@NJ103EX2.EAST.VIS.COM> So did this week's Computerworld. -----Original Message----- From: Syltrem [mailto:syltremzulu@videotron.ca]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 9:07 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=3D2028017= 94 --=20 Syltrem http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en = fran=E7ais) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:37:19 -0800 From: Keith Cayemberg Subject: Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Message-ID: <1194449839.001384.43460@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> There is also an OpenVMS birthday greetings article at Enterprise Open Source Magazine. http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/451374.htm Cheers! Keith ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 15:57:40 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Message-ID: <5pe5jjFqifg4U1@mid.individual.net> In article <1194449839.001384.43460@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, Keith Cayemberg writes: > > There is also an OpenVMS birthday greetings article at Enterprise Open > Source Magazine. > http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/451374.htm Uh Oh.... "still claims to run 300,000 systems worldwide" That is a considerable drop from the VMS Constant. Wonder if HP provided it or they just pulled out of their as^H^H hat. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:56:36 +0000 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Message-ID: Keith Cayemberg wrote: > There is also an OpenVMS birthday greetings article at Enterprise Open > Source Magazine. > http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/451374.htm Quote from the link: "HP, its latest owner, can't quite put its finger on the value of the marketplace but is about to come out with OpenVMS 8.3, what it calls an "Anniversary Release" that runs on VAX, Alpha and more to the point its Itanium-based Integrity servers." Woohooo... we're about to get VMS 8.3, and on VAX as well ... Hmmm... wait a sec ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:57:34 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Informationweek mentions VMS 30 year anniversary Message-ID: In article <5pe5jjFqifg4U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article <1194449839.001384.43460@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, > Keith Cayemberg writes: >> >> There is also an OpenVMS birthday greetings article at Enterprise Open >> Source Magazine. >> http://opensource.sys-con.com/read/451374.htm > >Uh Oh.... > >"still claims to run 300,000 systems worldwide" > >That is a considerable drop from the VMS Constant. Wonder if HP >provided it or they just pulled out of their as^H^H hat. > Since they seem to think that HP "is about to come out with OpenVMS 8.3, what it calls an "Anniversary Release", which runs on VAX, Alpha and more to the point its Itanium-based Integrity servers" I wouldn't put too much faith in their accuracy. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:20:09 +0100 From: "e.e" Subject: Re: IO TIME vs COMputable Message-ID: Bob Koehler a écrit : > In article , "e.e" writes: >> i know that the IO time = ELapsed - CPU Time. > > Basically: Wait Time = Elapsed Time - CPU Time > Waiting for I/O is only one reason to wait. > >> But , if the batch wait the processor (COMputable state) during the >> executing, the IO time was wrong. (i think) > > CPU time is "CUR" time, not "COM" time. > yes absolutely... lapsus.. thanks.. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:49:14 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: IO TIME vs COMputable Message-ID: <1194454154.240670.39790@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Nov 7, 11:20 am, "e.e" wrote: > Bob Koehler a =E9crit : > > > In article , "e.e" w= rites: > >> i know that the IO time =3D ELapsed - CPU Time. Just FYI... You know you posted this question twice right? The other topic received more replies http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_frm/thread/d3bf97983c5842= d4/ef85ca1421021c6b?hl=3Den#ef85ca1421021c6b Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:16:40 -0800 From: AEF Subject: Re: Name that VAX/VMS version based on banner Message-ID: <1194441400.236816.318370@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Nov 6, 2:46 pm, pech...@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) wrote: > In article , > > > > R.A.Omond wrote: > >AEF wrote: > >> While rummaging in my storage area I found a VAX/VMS printout of the > >> prime numbers between 1 and a million and a second printout for those > >> between 1000000 and 2000000. Here is what the top banner says: > > >> VAX/VMS PTEXT 23-SEP-1981 17:56 LPA0: 23-SEP-1981 > >> 17:56 _DRA0:[PRIME]PTEXT.DAT;1 VAX/VMS > > >> This is followed by the username in 7-character-tall letters, then the > >> filename and type in 14-character-tall letters over two lines > > >> PTEXT. > >> DAT;1 > > >> followed by the username in 7-character-tall letters followed by the > >> same as the top banner. > > >> Frankly, I have no idea what the answer is. > > >> Anyone have any ideas what version of VAX/VMS these printouts are > >> from? > > >I'd say it would have been about the VMS 2.3 to VMS 2.5 timeframe. > >The lineprinter output format stayed pretty much the same for a long > >time after that. > > I was installing 11/780's for DEC in the same timeframe running > 2.2->2.5. Sounds like a 2.x varient. > > Bill > > -- > -- > Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and > despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in > computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com) Thanks for your response. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 08:06:21 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Unknown BACKUP qualifier in VMS 8.2 Message-ID: In article <6m5Yi.4130$Gy4.1280@newsfe24.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > > Command: BACK/STOR=V2SLS/RELEASE_TAPE/LIST=_MBA25078:/FULL > From my 6.2 system, I get a pretty good hint: $ backup/store=v2sls nl: nl: %BACKUP-F-NOSLS, qualifier /STORAGE_MANAGEMENT is invalid when SLS is not instal led ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:26:52 -0600 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Unknown BACKUP qualifier in VMS 8.2 Message-ID: <0PkYi.3284$_S5.1824@newsfe21.lga> On 11/07/07 08:06, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> Command: BACK/STOR=V2SLS/RELEASE_TAPE/LIST=_MBA25078:/FULL >> > > From my 6.2 system, I get a pretty good hint: > > $ backup/store=v2sls nl: nl: > %BACKUP-F-NOSLS, qualifier /STORAGE_MANAGEMENT is invalid when SLS is not instal > led That's a start! But where can I look to determine what it actually does, and whether I can take advantage of it beyond STORA START SYSTEM_BACKUP? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 07:51:12 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Message-ID: <0bM1Hbh$pKpA@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <4730C598.2030902@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Well, I spent about 20 years in the VAX/Alpha VMS world and NEVER > encountered DDCMP! Perhaps the fact that DDCMP is almost unknown might > have something to do with it. Even if DEC supported DDCMP, did anyone > else???? It seems to me that there were a lot of LAN/WAN protocols that > never really achieved general acceptance! DDCMP was pretty much DECnet specific. You could, in principle, design something else that ran over DDCMP, but I'm not sure you could do TCP/IP or ISO/OSI. > > There was a big fuss about DECnet Phase V and ISO protocols a back in > the 90's but who uses them now? TCP/IP has, for practical purposes, > conquered the world! Some folks think Microsoft has conquered the world, but as long as us heritics hold out there is some hope. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 07:52:43 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Message-ID: In article <2ab7d$4730cc89$cef8887a$3152@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > (For those who don't know, DDMCP is decnet over a serial line). DDCMP is a line level protocol over synchronous serial lines. You could, in principle, put something other than DECnet on top of it. It is not DECnet over asynchronous serial lines. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 14:00:03 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Message-ID: <5pdun2FqpjmbU2@mid.individual.net> In article <0bM1Hbh$pKpA@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <4730C598.2030902@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> Well, I spent about 20 years in the VAX/Alpha VMS world and NEVER >> encountered DDCMP! Perhaps the fact that DDCMP is almost unknown might >> have something to do with it. Even if DEC supported DDCMP, did anyone >> else???? It seems to me that there were a lot of LAN/WAN protocols that >> never really achieved general acceptance! > > DDCMP was pretty much DECnet specific. You could, in principle, > design something else that ran over DDCMP, but I'm not sure you > could do TCP/IP or ISO/OSI. > >> >> There was a big fuss about DECnet Phase V and ISO protocols a back in >> the 90's but who uses them now? TCP/IP has, for practical purposes, >> conquered the world! > > Some folks think Microsoft has conquered the world, but as long as us > heritics hold out there is some hope. Microsoft was able to conquer the world because their product ran on stand alone systems that did not require co-operation with other systems in order to grow. Networking doesn't work like that. Like it or not, TCP/IP has taken over the networking world and there is no attempt being made to build a parallel network that relies on a different protocol set in order to supplant TCP/IP's postion. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 08:02:07 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Message-ID: In article <5pcda4Fqboo5U1@mid.individual.net>, Chris Scheers writes: > > If it existed on Alphas, it would be useful for accessing systems that > are not accessible from the internet. Adding an Ethernet board to an old UNIBUS, Qbus, or other VAX system seems to make better sense than a DDCMP board on an Alpha. Whether any of the systems are connected to the Internet is a separate question. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:41:55 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Message-ID: <07110711415537_202002A8@antinode.org> From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > DDCMP is a line level protocol over synchronous serial lines. You > could, in principle, put something other than DECnet on top of it. > It is not DECnet over asynchronous serial lines. Synchronous, eh? I wonder how I ever got it working between a couple of asynchronous serial ports with asynchronous modems. I must have been in some parallel universe. (Perhaps a parallel serial universe?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:14:51 +0100 From: "Fred Zwarts" Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Message-ID: "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message = news:4730C598.2030902@comcast.net... > Well, I spent about 20 years in the VAX/Alpha VMS world and NEVER=20 > encountered DDCMP! Perhaps the fact that DDCMP is almost unknown = might=20 > have something to do with it. Even if DEC supported DDCMP, did anyone = > else???? It seems to me that there were a lot of LAN/WAN protocols = that=20 > never really achieved general acceptance! In the early eighties, before Ethernet was used, we used DDCMP to = connect several VAX and PDP 11 systems. Some of them were in the building, others were in a different building a few kilometers further. In the = latter=20 cases a modem was needed. Modems had a speed of 1200 baud at that time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:04:32 +0100 From: "Pim van Velzen" Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Message-ID: >Why are all these things missing from the Alpha version? Don't think there were many customer left using DDCMP, so I guess it was not considered useful and there was no need or request to port this to the OpenVMS Alpha implementation of DECnet Phase IV. The same goes goes for DECnet on the CI, as Keith explained. To offload the OpenVMS-systems (and other host based DECnet-nodes), dedicated routers (like DECrouters on Microserver,DEMSA/B, DECnis and CISCO-routers) were introduced and available, so host based routing functionality was not strictly necessary anymore. >Are peoplejust expected to use Phase V and if so, >does it have all these things missing from Phase IV for Alpha? Do you have a special need for DECnet-routing in your network ? One option is to use a CISCO or other router, which implements the DECnet- routing protocol. You will need to a special license/version, not just a regular CISCO IP-router. With the initial introduction of DECnet-OSI (now called DECnet-Plus, aka DECnet Phase V) Host Based routing functionality was not implemented. Some time later, this has become available in the DECnet-Plus implementation on OpenVMS Alpha and Integrity. DECdns client/clerk was implemented from the beginning on Alpha and later on the DECdns server functionality has also been made available. If all your DECnet-nodes are in the same LAN/Broadcast domain, your DECnet (-Plus) end-nodes/systems can directly communicate using the DECnet-protocol without the need for a router. DECnet-PLus also implements DECnet-over-IP, which makes it possible to transparantly use IP as the transport for your DECnet communication between nodes/hosts in your network, thereby utilizing the IP-backbone for routing. Hope this helps. Regards, /\Pim. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 06:25:14 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Message-ID: In article , "Pim van Velzen" writes: > DECnet-PLus also implements DECnet-over-IP, which makes it possible to > transparantly use IP as the transport for your DECnet communication > between nodes/hosts in your network, thereby utilizing the IP-backbone > for routing. But Multinet provides Phase-IP, which allows one to transport DECnet Phase IV over IP, so one does not have to give up the DECnet security features that were omitted from DECnet Phase V (can you say SET EXECUTOR DEFAULT ACCESS NONE, as in NIST 800-53 SC-7 (5) ?). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:27:19 -0800 From: AEF Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Message-ID: <1194442039.434637.49770@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Nov 7, 6:04 am, "Pim van Velzen" wrote: > >Why are all these things missing from the Alpha version? > > Don't think there were many customer left using DDCMP, so I guess it was > > not considered useful and there was no need or request to port this to > > the OpenVMS Alpha implementation of DECnet Phase IV. > > The same goes goes for DECnet on the CI, as Keith explained. > > To offload the OpenVMS-systems (and other host based DECnet-nodes), > dedicated > > routers (like DECrouters on Microserver,DEMSA/B, DECnis and CISCO-routers) > > were introduced and available, so host based routing functionality was not > > strictly necessary anymore. > > >Are peoplejust expected to use Phase V and if so, > >does it have all these things missing from Phase IV for Alpha? > > Do you have a special need for DECnet-routing in your network ? DNIP to get from NYC to London and HK. Also, I was told that our app needs its "market" systems have to be routers, though that might just be for DNIP tunnels. (Our app consists of a central "market system" communicates with "update nodes". The users front-end app connects to the update nodes.) [BTW, your post showed up on Google Groups double spaced, as you can tell reading this.] > One option is to use a CISCO or other router, which implements the DECnet- > > routing protocol. You will need to a special license/version, not just a > > regular CISCO IP-router. Thanks for the advice, but I'm not upgrading to Alpha (not that you shouldn't have added that). I've just been reading through the DECnet manuals and was just wondering why all the limitations on the Alphas. Posts in this thread, including this one, have been very helpful. > With the initial introduction of DECnet-OSI (now called DECnet-Plus, aka > > DECnet Phase V) Host Based routing functionality was not implemented. > > Some time later, this has become available in the DECnet-Plus implementation > > on OpenVMS Alpha and Integrity. > > DECdns client/clerk was implemented from the beginning on Alpha and > > later on the DECdns server functionality has also been made available. > > If all your DECnet-nodes are in the same LAN/Broadcast domain, > > your DECnet (-Plus) end-nodes/systems can directly communicate > > using the DECnet-protocol without the need for a router. > > DECnet-PLus also implements DECnet-over-IP, which makes it possible to > > transparantly use IP as the transport for your DECnet communication > > between nodes/hosts in your network, thereby utilizing the IP-backbone > > for routing. > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, /\Pim. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 7 Nov 2007 07:59:08 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Message-ID: In article , no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net writes: > > It was widely used between PDP-11s and VAXen in lab settings. The > DDCMP is good point to point but the media was range limited even with > SYNC modems which often only ran at 9600 baud. The latter is the big > issue as it was rare thing to see it used with a serial line faster > than 64kbaud. Even Ethernet 10mb beats that hands down but > then Ethernet was far more costly than a serial line. Ethernet is a LAN protocol. DDCMP is a WAN protocol, although I saw it used locally prior to the introduction of Ethernet. We used to have local lines (in the building) using 9600 baud modems, shorter lines (in one room) using coax cable, and long distance (East coast to Mississippi river) lines on 56K modems. Those short coax lines were faster than the modems, but I don't recall the speed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:18:53 GMT From: no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net Subject: Re: Why does DECnet Phase IV have more capabilities on VAX than on Alpha? Message-ID: On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:56:50 -0600, Chris Scheers wrote: >no.spam@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote: >> On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:50:48 -0500, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> wrote: >> >>> AEF wrote: >>>> [ON TOPIC!!!] >>>> >>>> VAX can do DDCMP circuits. Alpha can't. >>>> >>> Well, I spent about 20 years in the VAX/Alpha VMS world and NEVER >>> encountered DDCMP! Perhaps the fact that DDCMP is almost unknown might >>> have something to do with it. Even if DEC supported DDCMP, did anyone >>> else???? It seems to me that there were a lot of LAN/WAN protocols that >>> never really achieved general acceptance! >> >> It was widely used between PDP-11s and VAXen in lab settings. The >> DDCMP is good point to point but the media was range limited even with >> SYNC modems which often only ran at 9600 baud. The latter is the big >> issue as it was rare thing to see it used with a serial line faster >> than 64kbaud. Even Ethernet 10mb beats that hands down but >> then Ethernet was far more costly than a serial line. > >I have used DDCMP on dialup modems at 19.2Kb with several clients. > >I even used it to connect from Texas to a client in London, UK. (I was >rather surprised at how well that worked.) At the time, overseas calls >were about $1/min, but it was still much less expensive than a plane ticket. > >For clients with VAXen that are not connected to the internet, it is a >very handy capability. > >If it existed on Alphas, it would be useful for accessing systems that >are not accessible from the internet. I used it to telecommute to the mill (DEC Maynard) via a 2400baud modem on my uVAX though the gandalf switch to a big VAX there. Even at 2400 it was mindblowing for PC users of the day for them to see me using PHONE, Email and doing remote account plus local work all with that one line. It was a good point to point way to connect. Allison ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.610 ************************