INFO-VAX Tue, 11 Dec 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 677 Contents: "snapshot" backup and HBVS Re: "snapshot" backup and HBVS Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Re: OT: One Laptop per Child RE: OT: One Laptop per Child Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) Re: Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) Re: Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) Re: Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) TCPware and MIME (again) TCPware and MIME (again) Re: VMS like search utility for Windows Re: What causes a STKOVF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:18:55 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: "snapshot" backup and HBVS Message-ID: Suppose I am satisfied with a backup to disk, and just one per day, but don't have much time to do it. OK, I can mount a third member into the shadow set at a quiet time, let a minicopy take place, then dismount it, repeating this day after day. (The minicopy is fast enough, but no backup---full or incremental---is, and neither is a full shadow copy.) However, if I have to go back to this nightly snapshot backup, then I have the choice betwwen a full shadow copy and living with one shadow-set, member, neither of which is acceptable. There would be no problems if HBVS would support 4 members, but I doubt that will be the case in the foreseeable future. If I then use the snapshot copy to create a shadow with a fourth set of disks while the application continues on the main shadow set, then presumably the minicopy for the next snapshot won't work, since I will have had to have created a new shadow set to make a shadow copy of the backup (and this will also have to be a full copy). Is it clear what my goal is? Is it possible? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:37:55 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: "snapshot" backup and HBVS Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > However, if I have to go back to this nightly snapshot backup, then I > have the choice betwwen a full shadow copy and living with one > shadow-set, member, neither of which is acceptable. That should be: living with a one-member shadow set I don't think there is a way to do this with VMS out of the box. However, it would be great to learn that there is. What about low-level stuff to hack the SCB? ------------------------------ Date: 10 Dec 07 14:15:40 EST From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > George Cook schrieb: >> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >>> >>>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC. >>>This version is unable to render most of the stuff >>>which is around in the WWW today. >> >> >> I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement? >> > > I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic. > This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even > for other historical platforms left in the cold > as far as browsers are concerned. > > However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep > up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number > of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. > And as compared to the number of people working at M$ to spoil the > standards. One person can't if you want everything Mozilla, etc. does, but a lot of what they do is little more than bloat. If I understand correctly, Firefox resulted from that realization. Yes, css and javascript are needed for many web pages, but I don't remember any web page I have needed to use which required Java. One of the purposes of VMS Mosaic is to provide a very fast, light weight browser which doesn't depend on a huge amount of the latest and greatest bloatware. Motif 1.1 and a TCP/IP with UCX compatibility are the only requirements for everything except secure connection support. Mosaic also makes a decent VMS file browser (unlike Mozilla which uses Unix syntax). Unfortunately, I agree completely with your comment about M$ spoiling the standards. The crap that is produced and passes for valid HTML is incredible. A bunch of moneys at keyboards comes to mind. As a computer programmer I find it embarassing. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:25:54 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: In article <5b520$475cffa6$cef8887a$8667@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > It is wrong to assume that developping nations will follow the same path > as that of the USA. True. I'm hoping they'll learn from our mistakes. :-) > They won't go with mechanical landline phones, to crossbar to DMS > switches, they will go with digital mobile phones right away. Yes. Not long ago, I walked out of an internet café (from which I had logged in to my VMS cluster back home to check my email) and saw a donkey-drawn cart driving down the street---and the driver chatting on his mobile phone. > They woN't go with books, they will go with digital content right away > (much cheaper to distribute). > > Give the kids access to the internet and networking between them, and > they will become somewhat computer literate and may hope to get jobs. > > Computer skills give someone the ability to particpate in the "global > village" both socially and economically. Lack of such skills condemn > them to 3rd world economic activity in their area (aka: status quo). > > Remember that if a couple of people in a village get jobs, the spending > they do in that village will greatly help the rest of the village. I don't want to repeat a book's worth of arguments here, but if one needs computer skills for almost all jobs (we're not talking system programming here, which is a niche market, just general computer skills), then they will have to be easy to learn---and can be learned later in life if necessary. Learning them earlier might even put them into inappropriate habits for what comes later on---how many supermarket clerks with a PC at the checkout today would have benefitted from a primary-school course involving Algol and punched cards? Go back to the 1940s, say. Prophets and science-fiction writers are saying that in the future not only will there be a COLOUR television in EVERY house, but sometimes even SEVERAL. And everyone will be able to afford one. Ergo, job of the future: television repairman. Wrong. The only way for them to become cheap and commonplace is if servicing them is not expensive or not necessary. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:51:42 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: <475DC2FE.5070601@comcast.net> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article <5b520$475cffa6$cef8887a$8667@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei > writes: > > >>It is wrong to assume that developping nations will follow the same path >>as that of the USA. > > > True. I'm hoping they'll learn from our mistakes. :-) > Learning from someone else's mistakes seems to be the MOST difficult form of learning. Teenagers, for instance, seem to have to make for themselves all the mistakes their parents made. This is not to suggest that they don't occasionally invent some humdingers of their own. . . . I read about things like the hotel fire in Singapore a few years ago where there were bars on the windows, no fire escapes, and only the front desk clerk made it out alive! No city or state in the US would allow such a structure to be occupied by human beings! This is not to say that it couldn't happen but I don't think that any government would fail to act if they became aware of such a place. Most commercial structures are subject to regular inspections, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:17:01 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: <73a23$475dc8f3$cef8887a$966@TEKSAVVY.COM> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > skills), then they will have to be easy to learn---and can be learned > later in life if necessary. Learning them earlier might even put them > into inappropriate habits for what comes later on---how many supermarket > clerks with a PC at the checkout today would have benefitted from a > primary-school course involving Algol and punched cards? You are making the assumption that they are easy to learn later in life. Try getting a older adult who has never used a computer to learn it. There are many who just can't. In this group, we take for granted that people can use a keyboard, know when to press ENTER and when it is not needed, know how to use a mouse, and know when a mouse click can replace a ENTER/RETURN, and can even understand there are differences between different buttons on a mouse. And we take for granted that people understand why it is important to save a document and how disk drives (hidden magical devices inside a computer) work. It is wrong to assume everyone can easily learn this. We're not talking about programming or systems management here. Just basic usage and understanding what a "document/file" is on a computer. When I left the comforts of a plush hotel in Taipei and went cycling around Taiwan, I learned the hard way what being illiterate really means since I couldn't read any road signs, store front signs or anything. You can't understand until you've experienced it. Same thing for people who don't understand computers. They see plenty of people using them, but they have no clue on how to use one. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:05:17 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > Remember that if a couple of people in a village get jobs, the spending > they do in that village will greatly help the rest of the village. Provided said village has electricity at all (preferably generated by solar panels), otherwise the cool laptop would be just an expensive door stop. Apart from that, a 3rd world village would probably need clean water supplies much more than laptops. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 01:16:00 +0100 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser. > > This was the goal of HTML from the start. most people know that, but few people care, it seems. > Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very > fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota > in no time. > > Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make > layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not > 100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it). > > Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS. > > But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS > sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories. that's all nice and well, but let's come back to the original goal of supplying children with Mosaic browsers. After having solved the problem of electricity supply for their laptops they will demand the same cool stuff as all the other teenies in the world: visiting cool sites (requiring JavaScript, flash plugins, etc), listening to web radio and watching youtube videos. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:35:38 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: <475de961$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > Michael Kraemer wrote: >> However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep >> up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number >> of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc. > > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser. That is an axiom and not a theorem. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:45:15 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: <475deba4$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Michael Kraemer wrote: > JF Mezei schrieb: >> Remember that if a couple of people in a village get jobs, the spending >> they do in that village will greatly help the rest of the village. > > Provided said village has electricity at all > (preferably generated by solar panels), > otherwise the cool laptop would be just an > expensive door stop. > Apart from that, a 3rd world village would probably > need clean water supplies much more than laptops. No. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO-1 #A built-in hand-crank generator, making it self-powered equipment, was #part of the original design, but Negroponte stated at a 2006 LinuxWorld #talk that it was no longer integrated into the laptop itself, but #optionally available as a hand- or foot-operated generator built into a #separate power unit. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:37:53 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: <475de9e9$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >> In article <13ce4$475b2683$cef8887a$5430@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei >> writes: >>> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >>>> Whenever I hear about this nonsense, I wish all of these self-appointed >>>> gurus would read Cliff Stoll. >>>> >>> So what do those OLPC laptops run then ? >> Some sort of Linux. > > So all the world needs is one virus that knows a hole in that Linux. I am sure that some will be created. We are over 50000 for Windows I believe. If this distro get out in millions, then it will obvious be a very interesting target as well. So I hope they have secured the standard config good. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:16:11 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: <475DF2EB.1020507@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > >>skills), then they will have to be easy to learn---and can be learned >>later in life if necessary. Learning them earlier might even put them >>into inappropriate habits for what comes later on---how many supermarket >>clerks with a PC at the checkout today would have benefitted from a >>primary-school course involving Algol and punched cards? > > > > You are making the assumption that they are easy to learn later in life. > Try getting a older adult who has never used a computer to learn it. > There are many who just can't. > I don't believe that they can't! They are simply unwilling to make the attempt. If the alternative were to lose their jobs, most would at least attempt it and I suspect that most would succeed! Someone who is over, say seventy years old, has little incentive to learn if he doesn't already know how. He knows how to write a letter, prepare his income tax return, balance his checking account, etc, without the use of a computer. Where is the incentive? It's easier to do it by hand than to learn. Given an incentive. . . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 19:32:52 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, Michael Kraemer wrote: > JF Mezei schrieb: > > > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on > > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser. > > > This was the goal of HTML from the start. > > most people know that, but few people care, it seems. > > > Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very > > fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota > > in no time. > > > Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make > > layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not > > 100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it). > > > Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS. > > > But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS > > sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories. > > that's all nice and well, but let's come back to the original > goal of supplying children with Mosaic browsers. > After having solved the problem of electricity supply IIRC, the laptops can be crank-charged and a charge last for 12 hours or more. > for their laptops they will demand the same cool stuff > as all the other teenies in the world: > visiting cool sites (requiring JavaScript, flash plugins, etc), > listening to web radio and watching youtube videos. Did you see the 60 minutes story on this? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:30:08 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: OT: One Laptop per Child Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: December 10, 2007 8:38 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child > > Bob Koehler wrote: > > In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de > (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > >> In article <13ce4$475b2683$cef8887a$5430@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei > >> writes: > >>> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > >>>> Whenever I hear about this nonsense, I wish all of these self- > appointed > >>>> gurus would read Cliff Stoll. > >>>> > >>> So what do those OLPC laptops run then ? > >> Some sort of Linux. > > > > So all the world needs is one virus that knows a hole in that > Linux. > > I am sure that some will be created. > > We are over 50000 for Windows I believe. > > If this distro get out in millions, then it will obvious > be a very interesting target as well. > > So I hope they have secured the standard config good. > > Arne Not sure if this would do any good. Like Windows, no matter how well you secure the base Linux OS, every month has 5-20+ additional security fixes released. At some point one has to wonder if they can afford Windows or Linux. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:52:28 -0800 (PST) From: WWWebb Subject: Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) Message-ID: I have the executable stub that is needed for creating self-extracting archive files for VMS Alpha. Does anybody have one or know of one for VMS I64? 8.3, if it matters. Thanks, WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:26:58 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) Message-ID: <07121016265834_202647DE@antinode.org> From: WWWebb > I have the executable stub that is needed for creating self-extracting > archive files for VMS Alpha. > > Does anybody have one or know of one for VMS I64? 8.3, if it matters. Anyone who builds UnZip from the source code on that system type? I don't have a convenient IA64 system, but if you can't find what you seek, I could probably make one on a TestDrive system. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:42:43 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) Message-ID: <07121016424309_202002AB@antinode.org> From: WWWebb > I have the executable stub that is needed for creating self-extracting > archive files for VMS Alpha. > > Does anybody have one or know of one for VMS I64? 8.3, if it matters. In "ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/unzip.zip", among other things, I see: [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.axp_exe [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.ia64_exe [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.vax_decc_exe [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.vax_vaxc_exe [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.axp_exe [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.ia64_exe [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.vax_decc_exe [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.vax_vaxc_exe Blame Mr. Goatley. SMS. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:31:34 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Self-extracting archives for I64? (Who's got the stub?) Message-ID: In article <07121016424309_202002AB@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > > >From: WWWebb > >> I have the executable stub that is needed for creating self-extracting >> archive files for VMS Alpha. >> >> Does anybody have one or know of one for VMS I64? 8.3, if it matters. > >In "ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/unzip.zip", among other >things, I see: > > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.axp_exe > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.ia64_exe > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.vax_decc_exe > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx.vax_vaxc_exe > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.axp_exe > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.ia64_exe > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.vax_decc_exe > [.vms-binaries]unzipsfx_cli.vax_vaxc_exe > >Blame Mr. Goatley. I was going to suggest that or offer to put my UNZIPSFX.IA64_EXE up for download. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: TCPware and MIME (again) Message-ID: I was recently poking around the web trying to solve another "MIME send" problem in TCPware when I stumbled upon the following paragraph in the Multinet release notes: ### MultiNet V5.2 Release Notes - April 2007 2.10.16 SMTP Two new SMTP logicals were added to allow sending the output of the OpenVMS MIME utility with MultiNet mail: MULTINET_SMTP_ALLOW_MIME_SEND (value is Y/T/1 to enable the new behavior, anything else to disable it) MULTINET_SMTP_MIME_TAG (value is what to look for at the start of the first line of the message. Optional. Defaults to "Mime-version:" Without the SMTP_ALLOW_MIME_SEND defined, the behavior will be as before. WIth it, if the first line of the message file being sent is the mime tag, the blank line at the end of the header output will be suppressed so that the header lines in the message will be seen as header lines rather than message body. [9147] ### So does anyone know if these changes will make it into TCPware anytime soon? Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Rieck Subject: TCPware and MIME (again) Message-ID: <5a7de0bb-055d-43d5-aa0e-0ce847848913@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com> I was recently poking around the web trying to solve another "MIME send" problem in TCPware when I stumbled upon the following paragraph in the Multinet release notes: ### MultiNet V5.2 Release Notes - April 2007 2.10.16 SMTP Two new SMTP logicals were added to allow sending the output of the OpenVMS MIME utility with MultiNet mail: MULTINET_SMTP_ALLOW_MIME_SEND (value is Y/T/1 to enable the new behavior, anything else to disable it) MULTINET_SMTP_MIME_TAG (value is what to look for at the start of the first line of the message. Optional. Defaults to "Mime-version:" Without the SMTP_ALLOW_MIME_SEND defined, the behavior will be as before. WIth it, if the first line of the message file being sent is the mime tag, the blank line at the end of the header output will be suppressed so that the header lines in the message will be seen as header lines rather than message body. [9147] ### So does anyone know if these changes will make it into TCPware anytime soon? Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 06:22:31 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS like search utility for Windows Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > Try this and post back: > > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$message(%X34B4)'" LOL! -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:00:11 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: What causes a STKOVF Message-ID: In article , John Reagan writes: > > >Joe Sewell wrote: > >> What I need is an idea of when the RTL or lower layers detect a "stack >> overflow" in a non-threaded situation (though it's a DECwindows app, >> just in case it's multithreading for some reason), so I might get some >> idea of where to look. (The place where the exception happened didn't >> reveal too much.) >> >> It sounds like the RTL actually pre-checks for a case where pushing n >> bytes onto the stack would cause the stack to overflow the thread's >> stated stack size (in a multithreaded app), and signal SS$_STKOVF >> before it goes off the deep end. What does it do for a single threaded >> app? > >To answer your question: In a multi-threaded/multi-stacked application, >each stack is a fixed size (no automatic expansion) and there are >'yellow zones' to help DECthreads know when you are near the edge of the >stack. The Calling Standard has lots of details on how stack checking >is implemented by the compilers. > >In a traditional single-stack application, there is no yellow zone since >there is automatic stack expansion. The stack will expand and expand >until you run out of page file quota. You'll eventually end up with an >ACCVIO I believe. I thought he said it wasn't threaded in the initial post. I came across many of these when working on a DECthreaded application. I setup a file of configuration parameters and one was a stack size value to pass along to pthread_attr_setstacksize(). -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.677 ************************