INFO-VAX Wed, 19 Dec 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 694 Contents: ES45 upgrade question IMAP server security vulnerability Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Re: Let's get back to some VMS tech talk!! Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: quick question Re: Singapore Server Rescue Re: Singapore Server Rescue Re: Singapore Server Rescue Re: Singapore Server Rescue Re: Singapore Server Rescue Re: Singapore Server Rescue Re: Timezone rule change won't stick! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:17:29 -0800 (PST) From: FrankS Subject: ES45 upgrade question Message-ID: <7b811983-b4c1-4d82-a869-441bc8947fa8@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> Does anybody know whether an ES45 68/1000 can be upgraded to the 68/1250 cpu modules? Is it just a matter of taking out the old cpu and popping in the new ones, or is there a motherboard change? Any pointers to HP/Compaq reference documents would be very much appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:45:14 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: IMAP server security vulnerability Message-ID: <539f9$4768e828$cef8887a$13093@TEKSAVVY.COM> Same as POP server. Alpha VMS 8.3, TCPIP Services 5.6 Someone can log in with any username/password combination without generating any OPCOM "login failure" messages, generating intrusion record or getting it logged to the audit server logs. AKA: VMS is vulnerable to brute force attacks from not only the POP but also the IMAP servers. (XDM was also vulnerable at 5.3 but I haven't teste it since). In other words, ANA/AUDIT no longer gives you a trustable list of wrong username/password attempst since so many service don't signal such events to the audit server. The only clue is in: TCPIP$IMAP_HOME: example: > 15:38:49 22000132 Starting IMAP server on port 143 > 15:38:49 22000132 SERVER: The administered server completed its startup successfully. > 15:38:50 22000132 ADMIN: Administrator completed server start. > 22:42:41 22000132 Session 2: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > 22:42:41 22000132 Session 3: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 4: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication informaion. > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 5: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 6: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information. > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 7: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication information. > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 8: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 9: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information. > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 10: Failed to authenticate user user because Invalid authentication information. > 22:42:44 22000132 Session 11: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication information. I noticed because there was a HUGE list of attempts that started to scroll and never ended. I will now have to go through it to see if they ever got in. VMS: The operating system that used to be more secure than others. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 02:57:53 -0800 (PST) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Message-ID: IIRC IMAP is not a secure protocol and therefore its not recommended to be allowing it on a interface connected to an untrusted network. Have you reported this to HP? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:02:41 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Message-ID: > > VMS: The operating system that used to be more secure than others. It's only as secure as the layered software you choose to run on it! On top of standard Intrusion Detection: - What if the login attack was successful; is the last login time(s) updated? What privileges do your Apache, Tomcat, PHP, Python, and WASD, servers run under? Do all these servers assume the VMS persona of the client before attemting to access file/devices etc? If we all continue to ignore Session-Hijacking do you reakon it'll go away? Cookies, Session Ids, Expiration Dates - that's what VMS is all about these days :-( Why do you claim it is more secure than anything else? What's the authentication module for SOAP? Jan-Erik? Still HTTPS or is that not part of the specification? Regards Richard Maher "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:539f9$4768e828$cef8887a$13093@TEKSAVVY.COM... > Same as POP server. > > Alpha VMS 8.3, TCPIP Services 5.6 > > Someone can log in with any username/password combination without > generating any OPCOM "login failure" messages, generating intrusion > record or getting it logged to the audit server logs. > > AKA: VMS is vulnerable to brute force attacks from not only the POP but > also the IMAP servers. > > (XDM was also vulnerable at 5.3 but I haven't teste it since). > > > In other words, ANA/AUDIT no longer gives you a trustable list of wrong > username/password attempst since so many service don't signal such > events to the audit server. > > The only clue is in: > > TCPIP$IMAP_HOME: > > example: > > 15:38:49 22000132 Starting IMAP server on port 143 > > 15:38:49 22000132 SERVER: The administered server completed its startup successfully. > > 15:38:50 22000132 ADMIN: Administrator completed server start. > > 22:42:41 22000132 Session 2: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:41 22000132 Session 3: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information > > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 4: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication informaion. > > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 5: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 6: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 7: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 8: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 9: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 10: Failed to authenticate user user because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:44 22000132 Session 11: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication information. > > > I noticed because there was a HUGE list of attempts that started to > scroll and never ended. I will now have to go through it to see if they > ever got in. > > > VMS: The operating system that used to be more secure than others. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:25:03 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Message-ID: <4d487$4768ff8e$cef8887a$24499@TEKSAVVY.COM> IanMiller wrote: > IIRC IMAP is not a secure protocol and therefore its not recommended > to be allowing it on a interface connected to an untrusted network. > > Have you reported this to HP? From the TCPIP management 5.6 manual page 20-1: ## The IMAP server uses security features provided in the protocol and in the OpenVMS operating system, as well as additional security measures. These methods provide a secure process that minimizes the possibility of inappropriate access to a user’s mail file on the served system. ## It is clear that it doesn't use the OpenVMS security features. I can understand debate about intrusion detection. (can cause denial of service). But the lack of logging to audit server is inexcusable. You seem to be of the opinion that it is perfectly acceptable to have this and that when limited to a corporate intranet, there is no danger of a malicious emnployee running a script to do brute force password guessing on the CEO's account. How is a hobbyist supposed to report this to HP ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:52:23 -0800 (PST) From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Message-ID: On Dec 19, 4:45 am, JF Mezei wrote: > Same as POP server. > > Alpha VMS 8.3, TCPIP Services 5.6 > > Someone can log in with any username/password combination without > generating any OPCOM "login failure" messages, generating intrusion > record or getting it logged to the audit server logs. > > AKA: VMS is vulnerable to brute force attacks from not only the POP but > also the IMAP servers. > > (XDM was also vulnerable at 5.3 but I haven't teste it since). > > In other words, ANA/AUDIT no longer gives you a trustable list of wrong > username/password attempst since so many service don't signal such > events to the audit server. > > The only clue is in: > > TCPIP$IMAP_HOME: > > example: > > > 15:38:49 22000132 Starting IMAP server on port 143 > > 15:38:49 22000132 SERVER: The administered server completed its startup successfully. > > 15:38:50 22000132 ADMIN: Administrator completed server start. > > 22:42:41 22000132 Session 2: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:41 22000132 Session 3: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information > > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 4: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication informaion. > > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 5: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:42 22000132 Session 6: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 7: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 8: Failed to authenticate user root because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 9: Failed to authenticate user admin because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:43 22000132 Session 10: Failed to authenticate user user because Invalid authentication information. > > 22:42:44 22000132 Session 11: Failed to authenticate user webmaster because Invalid authentication information. > > I noticed because there was a HUGE list of attempts that started to > scroll and never ended. I will now have to go through it to see if they > ever got in. > > VMS: The operating system that used to be more secure than others. that is why it is best to stay on a stable OLDER version of VMS so that you are not running on the cutting edge or you may get cut ... also, it is best to use IMAP or other software from a secondary vendor (i.e. Process Software) that hires VMS pros who know what they are doing, and not some new programmer in India or somewhere who doesn't know what they are doing ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:47:55 +0000 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Message-ID: > Alpha VMS 8.3, TCPIP Services 5.6 > > Someone can log in with any username/password combination without > generating any OPCOM "login failure" messages, generating intrusion > record or getting it logged to the audit server logs. Any program on a VMS system that evaluates a username/password from an unauthorized source (Username: prompt, web page or POP/IMAP protocol) *must* invoke the intrusion routines. The $SCAN_INTRUSION service historically provided this service, and the newer $ACM service provides integrated intrusion detection with password validation unlike $GETUAI/$HASH_PASSWORD. If a program doesn't do this, it is seriously broken, and is providing a back door around VMS's standard intrusion detection mechanism. This typically comes about when Unix-centric developers are involved, who are not aware of the intrusion detection routines on VMS. That it is happening with a standard HP product is shameful. It should be fixed as a matter of urgency. In the meantime, please note that PMDF's IMAP/POP servers do perform this task properly. --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:01:00 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: IMAP server security vulnerability Message-ID: <4769241C.9030500@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > IanMiller wrote: > >>IIRC IMAP is not a secure protocol and therefore its not recommended >>to be allowing it on a interface connected to an untrusted network. >> >>Have you reported this to HP? > > > From the TCPIP management 5.6 manual page 20-1: > ## > The IMAP server uses security features provided in the protocol and in > the OpenVMS operating system, as well as additional security measures. > These methods provide a secure process that minimizes the possibility of > inappropriate access to a user’s mail file on the served system. > ## > > > It is clear that it doesn't use the OpenVMS security features. I can > understand debate about intrusion detection. (can cause denial of > service). But the lack of logging to audit server is inexcusable. > > You seem to be of the opinion that it is perfectly acceptable to have > this and that when limited to a corporate intranet, there is no danger > of a malicious emnployee running a script to do brute force password > guessing on the CEO's account. > > > How is a hobbyist supposed to report this to HP ? > You call the same 800 number you'd use if you had a contract. Tell the screener that you want to report a security problem with VMS. The last time I had a contract the number was 1-800-354-9000. That was 3-1/2 years ago and may be 3-1/2 years out of date!! YMMV. In fact the custom of taking reports of security problems from people without contracts may have been changed. If so, HP had done stupider things. . . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:03:14 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Let's get back to some VMS tech talk!! Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson wrote: > billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > > In article , > > "P. Sture" writes: > > >> It compiles and works on OSX. > > > To some of us that is not necessarily a plus or even something worth > > bragging about. :-) > > It indicates some level of BSD compatibility, which should be taken as > encouragement rather than as an opportunity for an unnecessary slam. Thanks. A bit more about it has come back to me now... The program appears to require that you are reading files from a physical CD rather than an image copy on disk. Unfortunately under OSX that would require adding extra system calls to mount the CD, which I never got around to persuing, but I had reports from both Windows and Linux users at the time that the program does work. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:36:50 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: <94a65$4768e630$cef8887a$12924@TEKSAVVY.COM> Sue wrote: > Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. I am > sorry I just do not know. > sue MI-5 is the UK equivalent of your FBI. (aka: domestic security) MI-6 is the UK equivalent of yor CIA/NSA/whatever other 3 letter acronym. (James Bond works for MI-6) MI5 was also the north american title for a most excellent BBC series called "Spooks" (which is about MI-5 :-) (Used to be carried by the US TV channel A&E) Some folks want to warn the world about alleged abuses by MI-5 and broadcast their complaints to a whole bunch of newsgroups hoping someone would read them. The way they do it marks them as spammers and nobody reads them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 03:19:58 -0800 (PST) From: PacoLinux Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: <0ed99f20-0317-41b8-bd7d-b2dffdbf5bee@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Dec 19, 6:48 am, Sue wrote: > Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. I am > sorry I just do not know. > sue If you are talking about M5, is a kind of emulator, and can emulate sort of ALPHA: - M5 is a modular platform for computer system architecture research, encompassing system-level architecture as well as processor microarchitecture. http://www.m5sim.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:01:17 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: In article <07121900023117_202647DE@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > > >From: Sue > >> Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. > > It's MI5, not M15. Yes. Nothing. > >> I am sorry I just do not know. > > http://www.mi5.gov.uk/ > > When you see junk like this posted to multiple groups ("X-Newsgroups: >sci.nonlinear,soc.genealogy.britain,aus.ads.forsale.computers.new, >brasil.noticias,comp.os.vms"), it's safe to assume that it's junk. Multiple? Search! This idiot SPAMmed this crap to nearly EVERY newsgroup. >> X-Complaints-To: abuse@newsdemon.com > >From: "Newsdemon Abuse" > >> We have received a large number of complaints regarding one of our >> former customers flooding various newsgroups with "MI5 Persecution" >> posts. We have removed this customer from our active database and he >> will no longer be allowed to use our servers. >> >> We appreciate your role in helping us to locate this user. > >But I doubt that it'll stop any time soon. It's good to know that this may cease for a while! Now if somebody could identify the moron posting the stupid floods to comp.sys.mac.system so that people could pummel him heavy club, that would be great too! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:39:45 -0500 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: <47691111.10609@comcast.net> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <07121900023117_202647DE@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: >> >> From: Sue >> >>> Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. >> It's MI5, not M15. Yes. Nothing. >> >>> I am sorry I just do not know. >> http://www.mi5.gov.uk/ >> >> When you see junk like this posted to multiple groups ("X-Newsgroups: >> sci.nonlinear,soc.genealogy.britain,aus.ads.forsale.computers.new, >> brasil.noticias,comp.os.vms"), it's safe to assume that it's junk. > > Multiple? Search! This idiot SPAMmed this crap to nearly EVERY newsgroup. > > > >>> X-Complaints-To: abuse@newsdemon.com >> From: "Newsdemon Abuse" >> >>> We have received a large number of complaints regarding one of our >>> former customers flooding various newsgroups with "MI5 Persecution" >>> posts. We have removed this customer from our active database and he >>> will no longer be allowed to use our servers. >>> >>> We appreciate your role in helping us to locate this user. >> But I doubt that it'll stop any time soon. > > It's good to know that this may cease for a while! > > Now if somebody could identify the moron posting the stupid floods to > comp.sys.mac.system so that people could pummel him heavy club, that > would be great too! Of course, participating in a forum like Encompasserve (eisner.encompasserve.org) carries fewer risks of OT spam, and the topics contain a wealth of VMS-related information. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:58:36 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: On Dec 19, 7:19 am, PacoLinux wrote: > On Dec 19, 6:48 am, Sue wrote: > > > Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. I am > > sorry I just do not know. > > sue > > If you are talking about M5, is a kind of emulator, and can emulate > sort of ALPHA: > > - M5 is a modular platform for computer system architecture research, > encompassing system-level architecture as well as processor > microarchitecture. > > http://www.m5sim.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page M5 is the "ultimate computer" from Star Trek, TOS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Computer AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:49:56 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: <47692184.7050402@comcast.net> Sue wrote: > Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. I am > sorry I just do not know. > sue It's MI5 not M15. It's the British Intelligence Agency. You might compare it with the CIA. It has nothing to do with VMS nor with the topics of any of the other newsgroups that "MI5Victim" is spamming. I'm inclined to believe that he is mentally ill and "off his meds"! I'd make a guess that it's "bipolar disorder". Killfile him if you can. Otherwise just ignore him. Complaining to his ISP may help but only until he finds a new one! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:21:55 +0000 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Sue wrote: > >> Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. I am >> sorry I just do not know. >> sue > > It's MI5 not M15. It's the British Intelligence Agency. You might > compare it with the CIA. > > It has nothing to do with VMS ... Actually, MI5 most definitely was a VMS site at least in the 1980s. I have no idea what they use now, but it would not surprise me if they still use VMS. I guess I've just signed my own death-warrant by saying this ;-) Hold on, there's someone knocking at the door ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 14:33:29 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: In article <47692184.7050402@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > It has nothing to do with VMS nor with the topics of any of the other > newsgroups that "MI5Victim" is spamming. I'm inclined to believe that > he is mentally ill and "off his meds"! I'd make a guess that it's > "bipolar disorder". > > Killfile him if you can. Otherwise just ignore him. Complaining to his > ISP may help but only until he finds a new one! This guy is spamming all over usenet. I hope MI5 will finally get him, to put an end to it. Maybe we should give them some ideas ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 10:10:49 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: quick question Message-ID: <47693479.1060707@comcast.net> R.A.Omond wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> Sue wrote: >> >>> Can somone tell me what M15 is and what it has to do with VMS. I am >>> sorry I just do not know. >>> sue >> >> >> It's MI5 not M15. It's the British Intelligence Agency. You might >> compare it with the CIA. >> >> It has nothing to do with VMS ... > > > Actually, MI5 most definitely was a VMS site at least in the 1980s. > I have no idea what they use now, but it would not surprise me if > they still use VMS. > > I guess I've just signed my own death-warrant by saying this ;-) > > Hold on, there's someone knocking at the door ... Shall we observe a moment of silence for the late Mr. Roy Omond? ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:07:45 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Singapore Server Rescue Message-ID: In article , Rob Brown wrote: > On Sun, 2 Dec 2007, Michael Kraemer wrote: > > > JF Mezei schrieb: > > > >> I should remind you that the PDP-11 was probably superior to the > >> 8086 at the time. ... > > > the big difference was that the 8086 was a single chip solution ... > > OTOH, the PDP-11 I remember is a bulky device, .... If DEC had > > squeezed it into a single chip .... > > The PDP-11 was on a single chip by about '82-83-84 or so. I'm pretty sure that this was in the smallest PDP I ever saw that a local word processing company were using in 1984. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 02:44:06 -0800 (PST) From: johnwallace4@gmail.com Subject: Re: Singapore Server Rescue Message-ID: <2740d6cc-6eb7-4407-a493-abc6340c3679@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Dec 19, 9:46 am, JF Mezei wrote: > P. Sture wrote: > > There was a VT100 terminal with some sort of expansion box about the > time of 1981, the expansion box was a PDP11. > There are various VT1xx-based boxes that might loosely fit the description of "VT100 terminal with some sort of expansion box" though sometimes the expansion box was just storage and the "computer" was inside the "VT100" box. VT103: a VT100 with a 4x4 Qbus backplane in the box. Enough for quite a decent LSI11, so long as you didn't need too much power. PDT11: a fixed-config busless LSI11 in a VT100 box with TU58s (PDT11/130) or (external) RX01s (PDT11/150). OS: RT11 variant DECmate: PDP8 word processor based on single chip PDP8 in VT100 box, RX50 storage. VT180 "Robin": Z80 system in VT100 box with external 5" floppies. OS: CP/M. Those are the ones that spring immediately to mind, you can find more about them on the Interweb. hth jw ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 2007 15:26:57 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Singapore Server Rescue Message-ID: <5ssri1F1ampicU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <82e$4768e886$cef8887a$13093@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: >> P. Sture wrote: >>> >>> >>> I'm pretty sure that this was in the smallest PDP I ever saw that a >>> local word processing company were using in 1984. >> >> There was a VT100 terminal with some sort of expansion box about the >> time of 1981, the expansion box was a PDP11. >> >> Data Terminal Mart in Canada was carrying it ins its stores. > > Sounds like the Mini-MINC. MINC and Mini-MINC were third party > systems using DEC components. Mini-MINC was one of those ROM-based > BASIC computers that everyone was selling prior to the first IBM > PC. I always thought the MINC was a pure DEC product. The few I saw sure looked DECish. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:30:41 -0800 (PST) From: johnwallace4@gmail.com Subject: Re: Singapore Server Rescue Message-ID: <9fc7abf3-89d7-48a3-8eca-b84bac580fdf@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Dec 19, 2:16 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <82e$4768e886$cef8887a$13...@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > > P. Sture wrote: > >> > > >> I'm pretty sure that this was in the smallest PDP I ever saw that a > >> local word processing company were using in 1984. > > > There was a VT100 terminal with some sort of expansion box about the > > time of 1981, the expansion box was a PDP11. > > > Data Terminal Mart in Canada was carrying it ins its stores. > > Sounds like the Mini-MINC. MINC and Mini-MINC were third party > systems using DEC components. Mini-MINC was one of those ROM-based > BASIC computers that everyone was selling prior to the first IBM > PC. Bill's right, you're not. Ask Google for more details. You're not by any chance thinking of the Heathkit H11 are you, which was a DIY LSI11 from a well known US supplier of electronic kits? I had a (mini)MINC on eval, it was a nicely-packaged PDP11 data acquisition and (primitive) display system. It didn't suit our needs, it was too expensive compared with a DIY VT103-based PDP11 with 3rd party analogue IO, which was entirely adequate for the application I had in mind - not as nicely packaged as MINC, and sadly without the very elegant MINC BASIC, but more than good enough given PDP11 Fortan, Tektronix Plot 10, and RT11. Another concern was that the local DEC office knew less than we did about the analogue I/O hardware, whereas folks like Data Translation had a bit of a clue, even in the UK. Hence DIY. The VT105 incorrectly mentioned a couple of posts ago was a not very intelligent graphical terminal which sometimes came with a MINC (again as a quick Google could have verified). hth jw ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 2007 17:15:43 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Singapore Server Rescue Message-ID: <5st1tvF1aum5cU1@mid.individual.net> In article <9fc7abf3-89d7-48a3-8eca-b84bac580fdf@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, johnwallace4@gmail.com writes: > On Dec 19, 2:16 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> In article <82e$4768e886$cef8887a$13...@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: >> >> > P. Sture wrote: >> >> >> >> >> I'm pretty sure that this was in the smallest PDP I ever saw that a >> >> local word processing company were using in 1984. >> >> > There was a VT100 terminal with some sort of expansion box about the >> > time of 1981, the expansion box was a PDP11. >> >> > Data Terminal Mart in Canada was carrying it ins its stores. >> >> Sounds like the Mini-MINC. MINC and Mini-MINC were third party >> systems using DEC components. Mini-MINC was one of those ROM-based >> BASIC computers that everyone was selling prior to the first IBM >> PC. > > Bill's right, you're not. Ask Google for more details. > > You're not by any chance thinking of the Heathkit H11 are you, which > was a DIY LSI11 from a well known US supplier of electronic kits? I haven't seen one for a couple of decades but I don't believe the H11 had BASIC in ROM. As a matter of fact, I don't remember any LSI-11 that had anything in ROM beyond ODT and boot routines. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 2007 11:27:03 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Singapore Server Rescue Message-ID: <7BF+EgY+dZdi@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5ssri1F1ampicU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > I always thought the MINC was a pure DEC product. The few I saw sure > looked DECish. IIRC MINC was a third party that provided some of the software and integration. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:36:55 +0000 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: Timezone rule change won't stick! Message-ID: > As far as whether we should be using WET, I don't know? I thought the > Europe/London combo gave me the GMT string I got (and we are in the Strictly speaking GMT does not change back and forward twice a year. The timezone used by Ireland, Portugal & UK is WET (Western European Time) which is the same as GMT in winter and one hour ahead in summer. CET (Central European Time) is used in most EU mainland countries, and is one hour ahead of WET). --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.694 ************************