INFO-VAX Thu, 07 Feb 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 76 Contents: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: DECnet Phase IV CONFIGURATOR DEGXA-TA PCI Gigabit for DS/ES/GS series EXECSYMB: multiple files in a print job Re: EXECSYMB: multiple files in a print job Re: EXECSYMB: multiple files in a print job Re: Help identifying a cable Re: Help identifying a cable Here,computer oriented programs only. Re: HP to close Nashua (ZKO) Re: HP to close Nashua (ZKO) Re: Java on VMS Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question TRU64 Project Re: TRU64 Project Re: Wrong place but desperate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Feb 2008 15:23:53 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <610m48F1t0ihsU2@mid.individual.net> In article <47a7c339$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <47a50fba$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >> Arne Vajhøj writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article <479e82c7$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >>>> Arne Vajhøj writes: >>>>> So you think the free VMS should be profit maximizing - OK that >>>>> gives another perspective on things. >>>> Well, it has been a profit center all its life, free is nice, but how >>>> much of what you truly need to run a successful business is? Maximizing? >>>> Not sure what your trying to say, but if it is going to survive, and >>>> advance to keep relevant in a rapidly changing industry it is certainly >>>> going to needc to earn enough to support that development. Let's not >>>> confuse the HP business model for VMS with reality. >>> HP is having difficulties making money on VMS. >>> >>> Almost all OS vendors has problems making money on OS'es. >> >> IBM seems to have made a pretty good comeback from the grave. > > Absolutely. > > But not from selling OS'es. Not so sure I would agree with that. CICS and zOS are both doing alright. > >>> It could make a little tiny bit of sense to try and make >>> VMS survive as a free OS. >>> >>> There are no chance that a VMS clone would make it >>> commercially. >> >> Pretty pessimistic attitude. I don't agree. > > Fair enough. > >>>>> The best thing to do then is nothing at all. >>>> Why? That just guarantees that VMS will go away. >>> Loosing a couple of hundred millions of dollars making >>> a commercial clone would not make a difference. >> >> "Not sure you would have to invest "hundred millions of dollars" >> I doubt there is anywhere near that in Linux. > > Ingo Molnar estimated (based on COCOMO) that developing the > Linux kernel on commercial terms would cost 176 M$ in 2004. Is that basing the salaries of all the children doing on the salaries of real computer professionals? > > In 2001 it was estimated that to develop all the > software in Debian 2.2 distro would cost 1.9 B$ also > using COCOMO. > > In 2007 Debian 4.0 distro was estimated to 5.4 billion euro. > > According to rumours it costed MS about 10 B$ to > develop Vista. > > I don't think you will create a good VMS without > spending hundreds of millions of dollars. So then, you agree with me that the FreeVMS crowd are just wasting time and nothing usable will come of it? > >>>>> Sure. If your intention is to create a closed source version of *BSD, >>>>> then you have a good reason for preferring the BSD license over GPL. >>>> If the intent is to make commercially viable product, sometimes that >>>> is necessary. And if the long term survival and advancement of a >>>> product is the desire, there has to be money to do that. When you >>>> can only sell one copy you either have to price it prohibitively high >>>> or go out of business. Unless your willing to violate the GPL (as a >>>> number of people have and continue to do) and risk being that first >>>> court case that tests the legal validity of the GPL. >>> GPL software seems to live rather well. Linux and MySQL are >>> much more widely used than *BSD and PostgreSQL. >> >> And, as I have stated before the reason for that is not the license, it's >> the marketing. when was the last time you saw an ad for any of the BSD's? >> Or PostgreSQL? Or a article in a trade journal? Doesn't this sound like >> another OS we are all familiar with? > > Yes. And ? > > My argument is just that GPL does not prevent commercial success. How can you have a successful business with a product that cost millions to develop (based on your numbers above) which you can only sell one copy of? You can't even plan on recouping your investment on service contracts because with no investment whatsoever I can take your sources and offer the same support at a lower price because I have no investment to recoup. Sounds like a business destined to fail to me. > >>>>> For the rest then it is just ego. >>>> Seems to me that all the ego is in the Stalman camp. >>> I see lots of *BSD people spending more time bashing GPL than >>> actually doing something productive. >> >> Say what? You don;t consider the fact that they provide a much more >> technically superior product as something productive? The only thing >> they don't do is advertise!! > > I did not write anything about the quality of their product just that > they spend an waful lot of time talking about somebody elses license. I have seen some comments that pretty much mirror mine, but not enough to even consider it noise in the background. > >>>>>>>> It is not yet bug-free, but it can compile the i386 userspace. The >>>>>>>> big benefit of it (apart from that it's BSD licensed, for license >>>>>>>> geeks :-) is that it is fast, 5-10 times faster than gcc, while still >>>>>>>> producing reasonable code. The only optimization added so far is a >>>>>>>> multiple-register-class graph-coloring register allocator, which may >>>>>>>> be one of the best register allocators today. Conversion to SSA >>>>>>>> format is also implemented, but not yet the phi function. Not too >>>>>>>> difficult though, after that strength reduction is high on the list. >>>>>>> Compiling 10 times faster with almost no optimization does not >>>>>>> match what you wrote very well. >>>>> Try read the description of pcc I quoted again. >>>>> >>>>> Performance is definitely not the reason the want pcc. >>>> Huh? >>>> >>>> "The big benefit of it (...cut out irelevant license commenti...) >>>> is that it is fast, 5-10 times faster than gcc," >>>> >>>> Sounds like a performance difference to me!! >>> You are not reading it correct. >>> >>> It is compiling much faster but doing less optimizations. >>> >>> In my book performance is about the speed if the generated >>> code not about the speed of the compilation process. >> >> Well, depending on what you actually get from those optimizations, maybe >> sometimes raw compilation speed is important. Ever tried to do a "build >> world" on a VAX with a system with gcc as the compiler? :-) > > No. > > But I still consider speed of generated code more important than > compile speed for a compiler. Well, they will be able to inprove their optimizations over time to make the generated code better. I doubt there is any chance that the speed of GCC will improve. Quite the contrary, it will likely get worse as it becomes more and more bloated. It's the GNU way..... bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 15:26:17 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <610m8oF1t0ihsU3@mid.individual.net> In article <47a7bc5b$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, Arne Vajhøj writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <47a51136$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >> Arne Vajhøj writes: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article , >>>> Keith Parris writes: >>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>>> Think if it were a "Zero acquisition price" pure open source project it >>>>>> would be a dismal failure. >>>>> Sshhhh! You're spoiling the illusion! It's Open Source, so it's free! >>>>> Free! Free, I say! >>>>> >>>>> A successful Open Source business model these days seems to involve a >>>>> two-pronged approach: giving away a low-end, unsupported version for >>>>> free while providing a high-end version with support for a dollar cost. >>>>> This preserves the illusion of being "free" (in terms of acquisition >>>>> cost), preserves the perception of being "free" in terms of open source >>>>> availability, while providing sufficient money for development and >>>>> support. Red Hat, Novell (SuSE), and MySQL seem to be examples of >>>>> reasonably successful businesses built using this sort of model. >>>> Yes, but if you choose the GPL you have to either give away the >>>> high-end version as well or cheat on the license. That is one >>>> of the reasons I have stated that the GPL is no good if there is >>>> an interest in a project actually lasting long enough to accomplish >>>> something worthwhile. >>> Wrong. >>> >>> If you look at the companies mentioned above they all live >>> of GPL'ed open source products. >> >> You want to buy a bridge? > > It is a fact that Redhat, Novell and MySQL all live of GPL products > (Redhat got a bit into LGPL stuff when they bought JBoss but ...). > >>> They live of support not a closed source high end version. >> >> Really? So, where do I download all the sources and binaries for >> RedHat Enterprise 5 Server? > > It can be done. That is what Centos and WhiteBox does. > > ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/enterprise/5Server/en/os/SRPMS > > sounds about right - I have not tried downloading it. > >>> In MySQL's case the use of GPL even make it easier to sell >>> their code under a commercial license. >> >> Do you realize how silly that sounds? Under the GPL you can never >> sell moree than one copy of any product because your customer is >> free to give it away to everyone. You can sell service and support, >> but then, so can everyone else who gets a copy of your code. Not a >> very promising business model, unless you actaully feed your family >> by working nights at WallMart. > > It only sound silly if you don't know about MySQL licensing. > > MySQl has not only GPL'ed their database. They have also GPL'ed > their drivers. > > Which means that any code linked with their drivers has to be > GPL (or other open source - MySQL do have a FLOSS exception). > > If you pay for a commercial license you can link your > closed source app with their driver code. > > Arne -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 15:32:59 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <610mlaF1t0ihsU4@mid.individual.net> In article <47A7C0D3.1060102@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <47a51136$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >> Arne Vajhøj writes: >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>>In article , >>>> Keith Parris writes: >>>> >>>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Think if it were a "Zero acquisition price" pure open source project it >>>>>>would be a dismal failure. >>>>> >>>>>Sshhhh! You're spoiling the illusion! It's Open Source, so it's free! >>>>>Free! Free, I say! >>>>> >>>>>A successful Open Source business model these days seems to involve a >>>>>two-pronged approach: giving away a low-end, unsupported version for >>>>>free while providing a high-end version with support for a dollar cost. >>>>>This preserves the illusion of being "free" (in terms of acquisition >>>>>cost), preserves the perception of being "free" in terms of open source >>>>>availability, while providing sufficient money for development and >>>>>support. Red Hat, Novell (SuSE), and MySQL seem to be examples of >>>>>reasonably successful businesses built using this sort of model. >>>> >>>>Yes, but if you choose the GPL you have to either give away the >>>>high-end version as well or cheat on the license. That is one >>>>of the reasons I have stated that the GPL is no good if there is >>>>an interest in a project actually lasting long enough to accomplish >>>>something worthwhile. >>> >>>Wrong. >>> >>>If you look at the companies mentioned above they all live >>>of GPL'ed open source products. >> >> >> You want to buy a bridge? >> >> >>>They live of support not a closed source high end version. >> >> >> Really? So, where do I download all the sources and binaries for >> RedHat Enterprise 5 Server? >> >> >>>In MySQL's case the use of GPL even make it easier to sell >>>their code under a commercial license. >> >> >> Do you realize how silly that sounds? Under the GPL you can never >> sell moree than one copy of any product because your customer is >> free to give it away to everyone. You can sell service and support, >> but then, so can everyone else who gets a copy of your code. > > > True ONLY if the people selling support have the necessary skills and > familiarity with the source code. Do you think that someone with only a > background in Linux or BSD could walk into a job supporting VMS? Not > likely! Your right, but that has a lot more to do with the opbscurity of VMS. There are a lot of people out there witht he knowledge needed to support linux or unix given the sources. It only takes one who can undercut your prices to drive you out of business. > You have to know something about the product you are supposed > to be supporting. You need to know a LOT MORE than the user of that > product needs to know. Wrapping your mind around a few Million lines of > code is not easy nor can it be done quickly. There are thousands of people out there with the knowledge of linux and unix to do it. There isn't for VMS for the obvious reason that the same level of avaialble information has never existed for VMS. No one has the sources. No one but HP can build versions of it. So, if you want to use VMS you have to go to HP and pay what ever they want for it. That's buysiness. You can't build an equivalent business on software you are required to hand to your competitors. But then, if believe all software must be freei and you still want to feed your family, I understand WallMart and McDonalds are still hiring. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:09:47 -0600 From: "Bob Blum" Subject: Re: DECnet Phase IV CONFIGURATOR Message-ID: Hey, no problem on the reply, sorry it took a while. (I just configured Outlook Express to troubleshoot some else's copy, and started revisiting comp.os.vms again... I started reading messages, saw the subject, and just had to read it!) I'm glad at least SOMEONE out there besides me has done something with the Configurator. From what I've seen, it seems to be something created way back when, then left to linger without much improvement. I found it to be useful, once I played around with it a bit. I'd have to go back and look at my DCL code for NIX.COM (Network Information eXtractor) to see how I grabbed and parsed the data, but I know I used a DECnet object to read the data. A command file would do an NCP command to SYS$NET, so I could gather the data from multiple Configurator listeners if I had to. I had to play around with calculating the years, since the Configurator report output would not include that. I always got a kick out of being called by the networking group for help with a Xyplex terminal server, and I could tell them "Oh, you mean the one that went down around 3:42 AM on Saturday three weeks ago?". It got so I wrote a command file to read the report file and generate a list of those nodes not heard from recently, so I could figure out which nodes went down. It was also the only way I found to determine if there were two nodes running the same DECnet address. The Configurator hears the SYSID message, which includes both the remapped DECnet MAC address and the controller ROM address, and my NIX program would put all the data on one line. I'd have to go back and search multiple report files, but it would at least show both that way. Unfortunately, the Configurator doesn't allow for more than one DECnet physical address entry, each time it hears the next one it overwrites the previous entry. All I did was submit NIX to run in batch three times a day, with a unique timestamp in the filename. I was able to go back and review data from years before in that way. I enjoy digging into things like this, finding undocumented command, logicals, and such. I fondly recall many tricks with the old PDP-11 based DECSA box SNA gateways. I actually discovered a way to force them to crash, using only a TYPE command on any VMS host. Needless to say I didn't get much use out of that command! Bob Blum "AEF" wrote in message news:09855ae1-b33c-4fd7-b1e6-402eae43daf5@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 5, 10:51 pm, "Bob Blum" wrote: >> Are you talking about the Configurator Module (aka "Module >> Configurator")? > > Yes! > >> If so, I've used it for years as part of a network monitoring tool I >> wrote. >> I normally had no problem starting it up, except for one time on one >> system. >> I'm trying to recall what I did to correct the situation, but I don't >> think >> I used the added AUDIT priv, or at least not in the way described in this >> thread. I think I may have created a separate account to run it under, >> like >> other DECnet objects. > > That was another thing I was curious about. They have default accounts > out of the box for FAL, NML, DECNET, MAIL, MIRROR, VPM (did I leave > any out?), but not for this. You have to "roll your own". I guess few > ever used it, as evidenced by my getting so few replies to my ON TOPIC > POST! > >> >> My monitoring tool evolved over many years, since at least 1991 until the >> early 2000s. I would turn on the module configurator to have it listen >> for >> SYSID messages from the network, then periodically run a DCL command file >> to >> read and parse the output of the NCP command SHOW CONFIG KNOWN CIRCUIT >> STATUS. It would then generate "flat file" reports with a single line >> record for each device it heard. Since the SYSID messages would be sent >> out >> approximately every fifteen mintes, I could create a timestamp value for >> the >> last time my monitoring node heard the device. It included the DECnet >> physical address (AA-00-04-00-yy-xx) and controller ROM address >> (08-00-2B-xx-yy-zz), as well as a system ID code. On a large >> metropolitan >> network with literally thousands of nodes, I could tell within 15 minutes >> when a device went down (or at least unreachable). I even used the >> report >> files to discover new terminal servers, and generated DCL to >> auto-populate >> Terminal Server Manager with their hardware addresses, then do a TSM TEST >> LAT SERVER PARTITION XXX to find out their LAT service node names. > > Interesting. My node monitor uses $ MCR NCP TELL 'CLIENT_NODE' SHOW > EXEC TO NL: looping through all expected nodes, of course. But I > wrote it years before I made a serious effort to get the CONFIGURATOR > to work. > >> >> If you're talking about something else, I'm not sure if I could help. >> Wasn't there also an X.25 Configurator as well? > > Yes, it's mentioned in the DECnet manuals. > > Thanks for your reply to this ON TOPIC POST!!! > >> >> Bob Blum >> >> "AEF" wrote in message >> >> news:1192535766.289260.15300@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com... >> >> > On Oct 16, 5:50 am, IanMiller wrote: >> >> On OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 STARTNET.COM still has >> >> >> THEN INSTALL ADD NICONFIG/ >> >> PRIVILEGES=(SYSNAM,LOG_IO) >> >> > Thanks for checking! Is there a chance that it doesn't need AUDIT priv >> > anymore? I suspect not. >> >> > Could it be that I'm the only one in the VMS universe who has actually >> > bothered to get the thing working? Has no one ever reported this to >> > VMS Engineering? >> >> > AEF > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:58:59 -0500 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: DEGXA-TA PCI Gigabit for DS/ES/GS series Message-ID: <13qmeac2fn35l02@news.supernews.com> In stock in quantity for only $299 each Upgrade your network to 1Gb over copper today ! -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 1207 East Highway 80 Suite D Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 912 786 8501 x201 Fax: 912 786 8505 E: dturner@islandco.com W: http://www.islandco.com The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:34:56 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: EXECSYMB: multiple files in a print job Message-ID: <47ab188b$0$4341$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> I've finally installed EXECSYMB on my trusty VAX. I built a procedure that is called by the EXECSYMB and then uses the old PSPRINT utility to convert postscript to SIXEL and sends it to my LA75 printer. (prints labels). But I have encountered a small stumbling block: I wish to be able to do: print/queue=matrix_ps myprologue.ps,mydata.ps This works fine on normal print queues where mydata.ps is simply sent right after myprologue within the same connection to the printer. With the EXECSYMB, it seems that I have two options: COPIES=ALL This generates 2 separate jobs one for each file. (instead of giving me multiple file names in one dialogue with the symbiont). Also, with COPIES=ALL, the EXECSYMB is the one that handles the /COPIES and each copy will be processed separately by my procedure. If I use COPIES=FIRST, then the EXECSYMB only sends me 1 job, and my procedure is told how many copies were requested and it can handle the copies by itself. However, with COPIES=FIRST, if multiple file names were specified in the print command, only the first one is supplied to the procedure and I never see the other ones. Anyone has dealt with this issue before ? pretty neat though: from my MAC, I can print postscript files to an LPD destination which is on an alpha and then points to the EXECSYMB queue that is on the VAX, runs the PSPRINT utility on the file and then queues it to print the SIXEL outpout to the LA75 on a serial line ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 08:59:06 -0800 (PST) From: Rich Jordan Subject: Re: EXECSYMB: multiple files in a print job Message-ID: On Feb 7, 8:34 am, JF Mezei wrote: > I've finally installed EXECSYMB on my trusty VAX. > > I built a procedure that is called by the EXECSYMB and then uses the old > PSPRINT utility to convert postscript to SIXEL and sends it to my LA75 > printer. (prints labels). > > But I have encountered a small stumbling block: > > I wish to be able to do: > > print/queue=matrix_ps myprologue.ps,mydata.ps > > This works fine on normal print queues where mydata.ps is simply sent > right after myprologue within the same connection to the printer. > > With the EXECSYMB, it seems that I have two options: > > COPIES=ALL This generates 2 separate jobs one for each file. (instead > of giving me multiple file names in one dialogue with the symbiont). > > Also, with COPIES=ALL, the EXECSYMB is the one that handles the /COPIES > and each copy will be processed separately by my procedure. > > If I use COPIES=FIRST, then the EXECSYMB only sends me 1 job, and my > procedure is told how many copies were requested and it can handle the > copies by itself. > > However, with COPIES=FIRST, if multiple file names were specified in the > print command, only the first one is supplied to the procedure and I > never see the other ones. > > Anyone has dealt with this issue before ? > > pretty neat though: from my MAC, I can print postscript files to an LPD > destination which is on an alpha and then points to the EXECSYMB queue > that is on the VAX, runs the PSPRINT utility on the file and then queues > it to print the SIXEL outpout to the LA75 on a serial line ! I don't know if this is directly applicable to your problem. We have some custom EXECSYMB queues but have never used or tried the /COPIES qualifier. We do handle multiple files on the print command. In our case the DCL running the queue does a JFCNT = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_ENTRY","FILE_COUNT",F$INTEGER(ENTRY_NUMBER)) during initialization (JFCNT is Job File CouNT) where ENTRY_NUMBER is provided by EXECSYMB. That tells the queue how many input files were submitted. The queue creates a 'state file' any time a job with more than one file is submitted, with the entry number as a key, and the queue-created output file pathnames as records, and uses it to keep track of the job as a whole. The reason is that in some cases, the queue is performing a particular operation on the input files, then submits the resulting output files as a single job to another queue, which continues performing some other operation. We want all the multi-file jobs to remain consistent through the potentially multiple-queue procession; also the end result needs all the resultant files packaged together in the final output, so we had to track the files and maintain their grouping through all the queues. Execsymb (at least as we have it set up here) treats multiple files on the print line as multiple single-file jobs; it calls the DCL code once per file, but maintains the same entry number, queue parameters, etc, on each call. The DCL code takes responsibility for retaining the state info for the job until all files have been processed. I don't know how any of this would work with the /COPIES qualifier; I'm afraid to find out because if it doesn't work they'll make me fix it even though we never use it, and I don't have time ;) Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 12:15:47 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: EXECSYMB: multiple files in a print job Message-ID: <47ab3e3c$0$22041$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Rich Jordan wrote: > > JFCNT = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_ENTRY","FILE_COUNT",F$INTEGER(ENTRY_NUMBER)) > Hey thanks. I hadn't thought of that. But that may be the way to go, ignore the filename given by the EXECSYMB, and use F$GETQUI to get the filenames. If I ask for COPIES=FIRST, then the EXECSYMB will only call me once anyways and I can then assemble my own list of files to "concatenate" (the PSPRINT utility acts like a PRINT command with regards to a list of filenames so I only need to feed it a list of coma delimited filenames. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:00:17 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Help identifying a cable Message-ID: <47AB0EF1.2060904@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Cydrome Leader wrote: > > >>INMAC was a huge computer cables distributor. I think they vanished in the >>early 90s. > > > If I recall properly, INMAC and the PC/MAC wharehouse became/merged > into what is today CDW. > > BlackBox still has a big catalogue of various cables. BlackBox not only has a big catalog of cables and other stuff but, if you can tell them what you need in terms of number of conductors and what's connected to what, they will make you a custom cable! I've done this once. It ain't cheap but it's probably cheaper than doing it yourself; e.g. buy a roll of N conductor cable, two connectors, and then digging out your soldering iron or crimping tool, wire stripper , etc. and then needing two tries and some smoke to get it right! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:50:23 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: Help identifying a cable Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Cydrome Leader wrote: >> >> >>>INMAC was a huge computer cables distributor. I think they vanished in the >>>early 90s. >> >> >> If I recall properly, INMAC and the PC/MAC wharehouse became/merged >> into what is today CDW. >> >> BlackBox still has a big catalogue of various cables. > > BlackBox not only has a big catalog of cables and other stuff but, > if you can tell them what you need in terms of number of conductors > and what's connected to what, they will make you a custom cable! My issue with blackbox is the prices that are 50000% too high. There are other places that will make weird cable at sensible prices. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 08:15:15 -0800 (PST) From: maha870@gmail.com Subject: Here,computer oriented programs only. Message-ID: <4effe594-3cac-4133-a482-8d9b4b291c1f@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Here,computer oriented programs only. job oppurtunities inside http://onlinejob7.googlepages.com ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 15:39:35 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HP to close Nashua (ZKO) Message-ID: <610n1nF1t0ihsU5@mid.individual.net> In article , Johnny Billquist writes: > > True enough. But for people who aren't that close (physically), knowing where > you live, and what you have stuffed there isn't exactly something that I'd > expect them to know, even if they have been sitting here for quite a while. I guess it depends on the people you hang out with. I have often been described in introductions with "You should see all the PDP-11's and Vax's this guy has in his house!" :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 17:18:08 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: HP to close Nashua (ZKO) Message-ID: <610sqgF1sm7gvU1@mid.individual.net> In article <47ab3b97$0$15168$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > In article <610n1nF1t0ihsU5@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>In article , >> Johnny Billquist writes: >>> >>> True enough. But for people who aren't that close (physically), knowing where >>> you live, and what you have stuffed there isn't exactly something that I'd >>> expect them to know, even if they have been sitting here for quite a while. >> >>I guess it depends on the people you hang out with. I have often been >>described in introductions with "You should see all the PDP-11's and >>Vax's this guy has in his house!" :-) > > The HVAC industry refers to that as: electric heating! :) Trust me, these are nothing compared to the Apollo Workstation I used to have. It could heat a room to tee-shirt temp in the dead of an NEPA winter!! :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 06:36:07 -0800 (PST) From: tim.beaudin@hp.com Subject: Re: Java on VMS Message-ID: <57f47480-a082-41bf-8b45-33c77aa21d64@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Feb 6, 9:00=A0am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , CodeAmazon writes: > > > > > This seems to suggest that something in the .jar that's responsible > > for loading the class is failing to find what it wants -- or perhaps > > the file is not getting retrieved? =A0I tried a variety of methods of > > locating the path to try to rule out the latter, and it doesn't seem > > to match the error, but errors are not always as clear as one might > > hope. > > > Can anyone point me in a useful direction? > > =A0 =A0Unless there's been a change since the last time I looked, the JRE > =A0 =A0on VMS does a file open for every single class you're using, even > =A0 =A0if multiple files in the same .jar or .zip are in use. =A0You can > =A0 =A0run out of open file quota, or channelcnt (a sysgen parameter). Just a thought, but are the jar files you are dealing with set to stmlf? ie, $ pipe dir/full filename.jar | search sys$input "record format" should report "Stream_LF". Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:27:27 +0000 From: Gary Parker Subject: Non-DEC NICs in Alphaserver 2000 Message-ID: <2008020709272716807-gjparker@lboroacuk> Morning all, first of all le me thank Roy Omond for the kind donation of the two Alphaserver 2000s that are now sat in pieces on my office floor, they're a big improvement on my aging uVAX 3100/30. The machines didn't have any NICs in them so I've been scrounging around for something compatible and found a couple of Adaptec ANA-6944A/TX cards. They're full-length PCI cards with four digital 21140-AE NICs on them. The console can see them, as does the OS (7.3-2, fresh install, no patches yet installed) and @sys$manager:tcpip$config happily sees four interfaces and lets me configure them whereupon they pass IVP. After starting TCPIP Services I can't ping the machine nor can I can telnet in or out. The activity light is flashing for the port I have connected to my switch but the switch's mac table doesn't have an entry for the NIC in it so nothing's getting out, by the looks of it. So, does anyone have any experience of using these cards with OpenVMS in an Alpha? Have they been known to work and how? Thanks in advance for any help offered, here's some more detailed info from the machine: At boot time the console reports the following: probing PCI-to-PCI bridge, bus 2 bus 0, slot 1 -- pka -- NCR 53C810 bus 1, slot 3 -- vga -- ISA VGA bus 0, slot 6 -- pkb -- NCR 53C810 bus 2, slot 4 -- ewa -- DECchip 21140-AA bus 2, slot 5 -- ewb -- DECchip 21140-AA bus 2, slot 6 -- ewc -- DECchip 21140-AA bus 2, slot 7 -- ewd -- DECchip 21140-AA ... Testing the Network Internal network loopback Failed Internal network loopback Failed Internal network loopback Failed Internal network loopback Failed 'sh dev' from the console reports the following: P00>>>sh dev dka0.0.0.1.0 DKA0 RZ29L-AS 0654 dka600.6.0.1.0 DKA600 RRD43 1084 dva0.0.0.1000.0 DVA0 RX26/RX23 ewa0.0.0.2004.0 EWA0 00-00-92-A7-AE-CC ewb0.0.0.2005.0 EWB0 FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF ewc0.0.0.2006.0 EWC0 FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF ewd0.0.0.2007.0 EWD0 FF-FF-FF-FF-FF-FF pka0.7.0.1.0 PKA0 SCSI Bus ID 7 pkb0.7.0.6.0 PKB0 SCSI Bus ID 7 'sh dev ewa /full', once booted, lists the following: $ sh dev ewa /full Device EWA0:, device type DE500, is online, network device, device is a template only. Error count 0 Operations completed 0 Owner process "" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W Reference count 0 Default buffer size 512 Device EWA2:, device type DE500, is online, network device. Error count 0 Operations completed 0 Owner process "TCPIP$INETACP" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] Owner process ID 00000210 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W Reference count 1 Default buffer size 1500 Device EWA3:, device type DE500, is online, network device. Error count 0 Operations completed 0 Owner process "TCPIP$INETACP" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] Owner process ID 00000210 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W Reference count 1 Default buffer size 1500 Device EWA4:, device type DE500, is online, network device. Error count 0 Operations completed 0 Owner process "TCPIP$INETACP" Owner UIC [SYSTEM] Owner process ID 00000210 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W Reference count 1 Default buffer size 1500 ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 15:13:20 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <610lggF1t0ihsU1@mid.individual.net> In article <47A7BE7F.8050903@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >> In article <47A723AB.5090704@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>JF Mezei wrote: >>> >>>>Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >>>>a serious answer. >>>> >>>>I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >>>>born in the USA. >>>> >>>>Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >>>> >>>>Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >>>>for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >>>> >>>>Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >>>>to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >>>>president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >>>> >>>>If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >>>>speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >>>>president ? >>> >>> >>>Unless I've missed something in a quick scan of the U.S. Constitution, >>>there are NO qualifactions prescribed for the office of Vice President. >>> >>>There may be case law on the subject. I'm not aware of any but IANAL. >>> >>>Quickly everyone! Who IS the Vice President?? >> >> >> This is the wrong time of the world to make jokes about the invisibility or >> insignficance of the Vice President. Despite spending far more time in >> "undisclosed locations" than any previous Veep, Mr. Cheney is considerably >> higher profile, and evidently more influential, than any previous Veep while in >> office (although Gore was also a more visible veep while *he* was in office >> than had been the norm up to that point.) >> >> -- Alan >> > > His "profile" includes his "shooting" skills. Face it; the man is a > klutz. His boss is a bigger klutz. My only excuse for voting for them > was that I thought Al Gore was worse! As matters have turned out, Gore > might have been the better choice. > > Thanks in large part to these two klutzes, we are embroiled in a war > that we can neither win nor get out of! Bull. We could win it tomorrow if the politics was taken out of the game. And we can get out any time we want. As long as the world is willing to accept the blood-bath that would follow. I had a good friend who server in Kosovo. He told me about chatting with one of the local Kosovars who told him, in no uncertain terms, and with no concern for who knew that he could not wait for us to pull out so they could get back to the job of killing all the Serbs. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 12:18:20 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: In article , Tad Winters writes: > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > reply) wrote in news:fo9etc$baa$4@online.de: > > > In article , Maverick > > writes: > > > >> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify > >> him? Both his parents were american. > > > > The United States' territory is not just the 50 states; it also > > includes Puerto Rico, Guam etc (the people who live there are > > citizens of the US, can vote etc). If the Canal Zone then had the > > same status as Puerto Rico now, then presumably he is eligible. I'm > > sure he's checked this. > > Puerto Ricans _cannot_ vote in presidential elections and they have no > representatives in the U.S. Congress. They _can_ serve in the U.S. > military. > Guam is in the situation. In the same situation? Can someone clarify the situation in Puerto Rico? I'm the first to admit I might be wrong here. I'm pretty sure that Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens. They have no representation in Congress, since that is by state and Puerto Rico is not a state. But can they not vote in presidential elections? OK, in some sense that is also by state via the electoral college, but it seems strange that citizens can't vote for President. Presumably they can be elected, though. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 07:44:54 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > Can someone clarify the situation in Puerto Rico? I'm the first to > admit I might be wrong here. I'm pretty sure that Puerto Ricans are > U.S. citizens. They have no representation in Congress, since that is > by state and Puerto Rico is not a state. But can they not vote in > presidential elections? OK, in some sense that is also by state via the > electoral college, but it seems strange that citizens can't vote for > President. Presumably they can be elected, though. I was wrong when I posted that they can vote for president, all the references I've looked at say they can't. Although the selection of president was originally up to the states, Washington, D.C. residents were added in 1961 by the 23rd Amendment. D.C. does not have the status "territory", nor the status "state". Its legal status is unique to the Federal City. They have a campaign to fight for representation in Congress, which can be seen on the optional but popular license tag motto "Taxation Without Representation". D.C. currently has no one in the Senate, and a "shadow representative" in the House. The shadow representative is elected by people and gets to vote in comittee if the Democrats are in majority but not if the Republicans are in majority (by changes to the House rules, which the Constitution leaves up to the House). Meanwhile Congress controls the D.C. government budget even though it spends taxes collected by the D.C. government on D.C. residents, and we send our armies overseas to expand democracy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:24:20 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <47ab153f$0$15743$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> There was a period of time where, having dismantled all of the local government, the USA was legally held responsible for the country of Iraq. Would Puerto Rico and Guam and any other territory be in a similar legal status where Washington can essentially do as it wants in those territories but the local people have no say in how they are governed by Washington ? It might make for some interesting precedent if a baby born in Iraq during the time the USA had 100% authority might request USA citizenship since he was born in what would be considered USA territory. In canada and australia, the "territories" do not have the same powers as a province/state, (less autonomy) but they still have representation at the federal level, and have their own territorial government as well. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 14:34:50 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <610j8aF1su041U3@mid.individual.net> In article , norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > This is a multipart message in MIME format. > --=_alternative 000D64EA852573E6_= > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Doug Phillips wrote on 02/04/2008 04:24:58 PM: > >> On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: >> > Bob Gezelter wrote: >> > > On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: >> > >> Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can > provide >> > >> a serious answer. >> > >> > >> I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have > been >> > >> born in the USA. >> > >> > >> Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >> > >> > >> Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold > just >> > >> for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes > incapacitated: >> > >> > >> Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job > going >> > >> to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this > situation as >> > >> president (but not allowed to run for president when the term > expires) ? >> > >> > >> If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to > the >> > >> speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for > the >> > >> president ? >> > >> > > JF, >> > >> > > In a word: NO. >> > >> > > The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules > for >> > > President (e.g., native citizen, age). >> > >> > > In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in >> > > the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, >> > > problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and >> > > who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth >> > > Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). >> > >> > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com >> > >> > McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? >> > Both his parents were american. >> >> In 1790 the First Congress declared: >> >> "And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born >> beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be >> considered as natural born citizens." > > I believe such a child must live inside the limits of the U.S. for > 5 years before attaining age 21 to claim citizenship. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the child of two americans one of whom is serving overseas with the military, born in a foreign country who was, by law, required to record that birth with the foreign country is still considered a native born american and receives an american birth cerrtificate issued by the Department of State effrective at the time of their birth. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:36:10 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 004B3905852573E8_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote on 02/07/2008 07:18:20 AM: > In article , Tad > Winters writes: > > > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > > reply) wrote in news:fo9etc$baa$4@online.de: > > > > > In article , Maverick > > > writes: > > > > > >> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify > > >> him? Both his parents were american. > > > > > > The United States' territory is not just the 50 states; it also > > > includes Puerto Rico, Guam etc (the people who live there are > > > citizens of the US, can vote etc). If the Canal Zone then had the > > > same status as Puerto Rico now, then presumably he is eligible. I'm > > > sure he's checked this. > > > > Puerto Ricans _cannot_ vote in presidential elections and they have no > > representatives in the U.S. Congress. They _can_ serve in the U.S. > > military. > > Guam is in the situation. > > In the same situation? > > Can someone clarify the situation in Puerto Rico? I'm the first to > admit I might be wrong here. I'm pretty sure that Puerto Ricans are > U.S. citizens. They have no representation in Congress, since that is > by state and Puerto Rico is not a state. But can they not vote in > presidential elections? OK, in some sense that is also by state via the > electoral college, but it seems strange that citizens can't vote for > President. Presumably they can be elected, though. > The Puerto Ricanchrian Candidate. --=_alternative 004B3905852573E8_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote on 02/07/2008 07:18:20 AM:

> In article <Xns9A3B60BDFCCB4staffordnospamwinter@199.45.49.11>, Tad
> Winters <stafford.no.spam.winters2@verizon.net> writes:
>
> > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to
> > reply) wrote in news:fo9etc$baa$4@online.de:
> >
> > > In article <pd-dnX1k6vqc5TranZ2dnUVZ_h3inZ2d@bresnan.com>, Maverick
> > > <Maverick@sun.org> writes:
> > >
> > >> McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.  Does that disqualify
> > >> him? Both his parents were american.
> > >
> > > The United States' territory is not just the 50 states; it also
> > > includes Puerto Rico, Guam etc (the people who live there are
> > > citizens of the US, can vote etc).  If the Canal Zone then had the
> > > same status as Puerto Rico now, then presumably he is eligible.  I'm
> > > sure he's checked this.
> >
> > Puerto Ricans _cannot_ vote in presidential elections and they have no
> > representatives in the U.S. Congress. They _can_ serve in the U.S.
> > military.
> > Guam is in the situation.
>
> In the same situation?
>
> Can someone clarify the situation in Puerto Rico?  I'm the first to
> admit I might be wrong here.  I'm pretty sure that Puerto Ricans are
> U.S. citizens.  They have no representation in Congress, since that is
> by state and Puerto Rico is not a state.  But can they not vote in
> presidential elections?  OK, in some sense that is also by state via the
> electoral college, but it seems strange that citizens can't vote for
> President.  Presumably they can be elected, though.
>
The Puerto Ricanchrian Candidate.
--=_alternative 004B3905852573E8_=-- ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 14:49:23 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <610k3iF1su041U4@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Rob Brown writes: >> >> Canadians also cannot vote in presidential elections and have no >> representatives in the U.S. Congress, but have served in the U.S. >> military. >> >> So perhaps one does not follow from the other. > > Like most countries, the US allows foreign nationals to serve in its > armed forces. The oath taken by each person upon entering the > military is sufficient to bind their service to U.S. interests in the > eyes of the law. > > There are programs whereby such actions can provide a shortcut to > U.S. citizenship. > > There are some foreign governments which prohibit thier citizens from > serving in our military. And there may be other legal issues. A > friend of mine, U.K. citizen was under the impression that he could > not legally volunteer for service in the U.S. military, but as a > permanent resident he could be drafted. I don't know what would stop > him from volunteering (perhaps he was in error), but of course, he > could toss out the draft order if he went back to the U.K. I can't see why he couldn't serve either. I have served with people from more countries than I can count on my fingers and toes. Another interesting anecdote regarding the potential problems with some of this multi-national stuff. Back in the late 70's while I was serving in Germany there was a big story about an American senior NCO who was actually a native born German who's parents had moved to the US while he was just an infant. Normally, he would never have been sent to Germany (for reasons I will provide shortly) but he somehow slipped thru the cracks and was sent to Germany to serve. Interestingly enough, because he grew up with German parents he spoke fluent German and so, was assigned to work with a Bundeswehr Artillery Unit. Then the fun began. Seems that during his absence he had been conscripted by the German Army!. This could have been a real nightmare, but it actually worked out to be a real good publicity deal. The US Army granted him an administrative leave of absence. The Bundeswehr gave him the equivalent in the German Army of his American rank and he served his 18 months doing basicly the same thing he had been doing for the US Army. And the press from both countries played this up as a perfect sign of mutual cooperation between NATO allies. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 14:53:14 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <610kapF1su041U5@mid.individual.net> In article <47A7BB92.5010508@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <9504f183-50db-48ec-b78e-9c3e7a73245f@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >> Doug Phillips writes: >> >>>On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: >>> >>>>Bob Gezelter wrote: >>>> >>>>>On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide >>>>>>a serious answer. >>>>> >>>>>>I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been >>>>>>born in the USA. >>>>> >>>>>>Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? >>>>> >>>>>>Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just >>>>>>for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: >>>>> >>>>>>Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going >>>>>>to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as >>>>>>president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? >>>>> >>>>>>If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the >>>>>>speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the >>>>>>president ? >>>>> >>>>>JF, >>>> >>>>>In a word: NO. >>>> >>>>>The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for >>>>>President (e.g., native citizen, age). >>>> >>>>>In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in >>>>>the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, >>>>>problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and >>>>>who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth >>>>>Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). >>>> >>>>>- Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com >>>> >>>>McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? >>>>Both his parents were american. >>> >>>In 1790 the First Congress declared: >>> >>>"And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born >>>beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be >>>considered as natural born citizens." >> >> >> As my daughter can attest as she has two birth certificates, one german >> and one american and she carries an American passport but is also >> eligible for a German one. >> >> Being female, this is not a problem, but were she in fact a male it >> could lead to some very interesting problems when she visits Europe >> (which she has done once so far since the time of her birth.) >> >> bill >> > > My uncle had dual U.S./Japanese citizenship, having been born in Kobe of > U.S. parents. At age 21 he had to decide between the two. AFAIK it's > still the case that minors must resolve dual citizenship on reaching > their majority! Not so sure it is all that easy. My daughter carries an American Passportr and is an American citizen. But, as far as Germany is concerned, she was born a German and will remain one until her death no matter where she chooses to live. I am fairly certain you can renounce US citizenship, but the same is not true of many other citizenships!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | A Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 14:55:43 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <610kffF1su041U6@mid.individual.net> In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > "sgallagher@rogers.com" writes: > >>> My uncle had dual U.S./Japanese citizenship, having been born in Kobe of >>> U.S. parents. =A0At age 21 he had to decide between the two. =A0AFAIK it's= > >>> still the case that minors must resolve dual citizenship on reaching >>> their majority! > >>Japan has such a requirement (to choose only one citizenship upon >>reaching adulthood), >>but contrary to what many people believe, the US does not. > > The US did at one time. My father had to choose between the US and Canada > when he turned 18 (I think it was 18). Yes, but if he chose US Citizenship, would Canada refuse to let him back if he changed his mind? Somehow, I doubt it. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:14:31 -0500 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0053BC11852573E8_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote on 02/07/2008 09:53:14 AM: > In article <47A7BB92.5010508@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <9504f183-50db-48ec-b78e-9c3e7a73245f@e10g2000prf. > googlegroups.com>, > >> Doug Phillips writes: > >> > >>>On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick wrote: > >>> > >>>>Bob Gezelter wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide > >>>>>>a serious answer. > >>>>> > >>>>>>I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been > >>>>>>born in the USA. > >>>>> > >>>>>>Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ? > >>>>> > >>>>>>Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just > >>>>>>for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated: > >>>>> > >>>>>>Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going > >>>>>>to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as > >>>>>>president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ? > >>>>> > >>>>>>If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the > >>>>>>speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the > >>>>>>president ? > >>>>> > >>>>>JF, > >>>> > >>>>>In a word: NO. > >>>> > >>>>>The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for > >>>>>President (e.g., native citizen, age). > >>>> > >>>>>In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in > >>>>>the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say, > >>>>>problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and > >>>>>who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth > >>>>>Amendment (1803, ratified 1804). > >>>> > >>>>>- Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com > >>>> > >>>>McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone. Does that disqualify him? > >>>>Both his parents were american. > >>> > >>>In 1790 the First Congress declared: > >>> > >>>"And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born > >>>beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be > >>>considered as natural born citizens." > >> > >> > >> As my daughter can attest as she has two birth certificates, one german > >> and one american and she carries an American passport but is also > >> eligible for a German one. > >> > >> Being female, this is not a problem, but were she in fact a male it > >> could lead to some very interesting problems when she visits Europe > >> (which she has done once so far since the time of her birth.) > >> > >> bill > >> > > > > My uncle had dual U.S./Japanese citizenship, having been born in Kobe of > > U.S. parents. At age 21 he had to decide between the two. AFAIK it's > > still the case that minors must resolve dual citizenship on reaching > > their majority! > > Not so sure it is all that easy. My daughter carries an American Passportr > and is an American citizen. But, as far as Germany is concerned, she was > born a German and will remain one until her death no matter where she > chooses to live. I am fairly certain you can renounce US citizenship, > but the same is not true of many other citizenships!! Also, I believe some countries are fine with dual citizenship and others do not recognize them. So to Canada you might hold dual US-Canadian citizenship, but to the US you are or are not a US Citizen, so if you are then your dual-Canadian citizenship is not recognized. (This is an example; I do not know if it applies to Canada specifically, although I think it does.) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > A > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include --=_alternative 0053BC11852573E8_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote on 02/07/2008 09:53:14 AM:

> In article <47A7BB92.5010508@comcast.net>,
>    "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >> In article <9504f183-50db-48ec-b78e-9c3e7a73245f@e10g2000prf.
> googlegroups.com>,
> >>    Doug Phillips <dphill46@netscape.net> writes:
> >>
> >>>On Feb 4, 2:39 pm, Maverick <Maver...@sun.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Bob Gezelter wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>On Feb 4, 8:59 am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Sorry for the OT, but this newsgroup has serious people who can provide
> >>>>>>a serious answer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>I know that that USA constitution requires the a president to have been
> >>>>>>born in the USA.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Does this requirement also apply to the Vice President ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Say you had an austrian born Vice President (we'll call him Arnold just
> >>>>>>for the sake of discussion) , and the president becomes incapacitated:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Would the VP be skipped (since he can't be president) and the job going
> >>>>>>to the house speaker ? Or would the VP be accepted in this situation as
> >>>>>>president (but not allowed to run for president when the term expires) ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>If the birth requirement applies to the VP, would it also apply to the
> >>>>>>speaker and anyone else in the defined sequence of replacements for the
> >>>>>>president ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>JF,
> >>>>
> >>>>>In a word: NO.
> >>>>
> >>>>>The eligibility rules for Vice President are the same as the rules for
> >>>>>President (e.g., native citizen, age).
> >>>>
> >>>>>In the original (unamended) Constitution, the second place finish in
> >>>>>the Presidential election, an arrangement which had, shall we say,
> >>>>>problems (e.g., President/Vice President from different parties and
> >>>>>who were opponents in the election). This was changed by the XXIIth
> >>>>>Amendment (1803, ratified 1804).
> >>>>
> >>>>>- Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com
> >>>>
> >>>>McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone.  Does that disqualify him?
> >>>>Both his parents were american.
> >>>
> >>>In 1790 the First Congress declared:
> >>>
> >>>"And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born
> >>>beyond sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be
> >>>considered as natural born citizens."
> >>
> >>
> >> As my daughter can attest as she has two birth certificates, one german
> >> and one american and she carries an American passport but is also
> >> eligible for a German one.
> >>
> >> Being female, this is not a problem, but were she in fact a male it
> >> could lead to some very interesting problems when she visits Europe
> >> (which she has done once so far since the time of her birth.)
> >>
> >> bill
> >>
> >
> > My uncle had dual U.S./Japanese citizenship, having been born in Kobe of
> > U.S. parents.  At age 21 he had to decide between the two.  AFAIK it's
> > still the case that minors must resolve dual citizenship on reaching
> > their majority!
>
> Not so sure it is all that easy.  My daughter carries an American Passportr
> and is an American citizen.  But, as far as Germany is concerned, she was
> born a German and will remain one until her death no matter where she
> chooses to live.  I am fairly certain you can renounce US citizenship,
> but the same is not true of many other citizenships!!


Also, I believe some countries are fine with dual citizenship and others
do not recognize them.  So to Canada you might hold dual US-Canadian
citizenship, but to the US you are or are not a US Citizen, so if you
are then your dual-Canadian citizenship is not recognized.
(This is an example; I do not know if it applies to Canada specifically,
although I think it does.)

>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> A
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
--=_alternative 0053BC11852573E8_=-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:30:19 +0100 From: Sebastian Hanigk Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Not so sure it is all that easy. My daughter carries an American Passportr > and is an American citizen. But, as far as Germany is concerned, she was > born a German and will remain one until her death no matter where she > chooses to live. I am fairly certain you can renounce US citizenship, > but the same is not true of many other citizenships!! To avoid the notion that one cannot renounce or lose a German citizenship: while our Grundgesetz (comparable to your Constitution) forbids the revocation of German citizenship as such, it specifies a few exceptions (mostly concerned with a second citizenship); one of those is to join voluntarily foreign armed forces while possessing that state's citizenship, so if your daughter would join the American armed forces she will lose her German citizenship. Sebastian ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 16:00:15 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <610o8fF1t0ihsU7@mid.individual.net> In article , Sebastian Hanigk writes: > billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> Not so sure it is all that easy. My daughter carries an American Passportr >> and is an American citizen. But, as far as Germany is concerned, she was >> born a German and will remain one until her death no matter where she >> chooses to live. I am fairly certain you can renounce US citizenship, >> but the same is not true of many other citizenships!! > > To avoid the notion that one cannot renounce or lose a German > citizenship: while our Grundgesetz (comparable to your Constitution) > forbids the revocation of German citizenship as such, it specifies a few > exceptions (mostly concerned with a second citizenship); one of those is > to join voluntarily foreign armed forces while possessing that state's > citizenship, so if your daughter would join the American armed forces > she will lose her German citizenship. See my other post. Don't know if that is a recent change or something, but I have known at least one German who was a voluntary member of the US Army (in the late 70's) who was not only claimed by Germany as a citizen, but drafted into the Bundeswehr. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:59:27 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <47ab3a6a$0$4329$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > See my other post. Don't know if that is a recent change or something, > but I have known at least one German who was a voluntary member of the > US Army (in the late 70's) who was not only claimed by Germany as a > citizen, but drafted into the Bundeswehr. There is a big difference between acquiring a second nationality, and formally renouncing your original nationality. Conrad Black is a good example. During his days of delusions of grandeur, he got the Queen to agree to knight him. As a canadian citizen, the formal protocol required the Queen to send the formal announcement to the canadian prime minister who would then sign it and give it to Black. Black despised the then canadian prime minister and refused to allow his knighthood to be processed by the canadian prime minister. As a result, he formally renounced his canadian citizenship and moved to england, at which point he got the formal knighthood invitation either from buckingham palace or the british government (on behanf of the queen) and he was knighted. When his lifestyle went sour and he got charged in the USA, he saught refuge in Canada, at which point, he was treated as an immigrant since he no longer had canadian citizenship. The satire shows in canada had a lot of fun lampooning Black begging to get his canadian citizenship back. (for some reason, he had many advantages to be charged in the USA as a canadian citizen vs british one). He also got to be able to commute between his canadian house and the chicago court until he was sentenced. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 12:00:35 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: <8jaHxQSCVZeA@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <47ab153f$0$15743$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > There was a period of time where, having dismantled all of the local > government, the USA was legally held responsible for the country of Iraq. Iraq never had the status "territory of the United States". Niether did Japan or Germany when US occupation forces ran parts of those countries after WW II. An occupation does not necessarily make the occupied country a territory of the occupier. > Would Puerto Rico and Guam and any other territory be in a similar legal > status where Washington can essentially do as it wants in those > territories but the local people have no say in how they are governed by > Washington ? In principle, yes. No law forces the US hand in how it deals with its own territories except US law, which Washington could change. > It might make for some interesting precedent if a baby born in Iraq > during the time the USA had 100% authority might request USA citizenship > since he was born in what would be considered USA territory. But he wasn't, and no US court would recognise his claim. > In canada and australia, the "territories" do not have the same powers > as a province/state, (less autonomy) but they still have representation > at the federal level, and have their own territorial government as well. ------------------------------ Date: 7 Feb 2008 12:13:35 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: Very: OT. US election and constitution question Message-ID: In article , norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > > Also, I believe some countries are fine with dual citizenship and others > do not recognize them. So to Canada you might hold dual US-Canadian > citizenship, but to the US you are or are not a US Citizen, so if you > are then your dual-Canadian citizenship is not recognized. > (This is an example; I do not know if it applies to Canada specifically, > although I think it does.) > By US law if but once you are a US citizen by any means you are not prevented from holding dual citizenship. And the US does recognise dual citizenship in many laws and treaties. If you are a US citizen when the US government deals with you, then it can and does ignore any other citizenship, but it does not need to deny them while doing so. citizenship, ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 03:00:07 -0800 (PST) From: Victor Kinlock Subject: TRU64 Project Message-ID: <9fe9396f-f6d7-4487-9f35-908b45f38c3e@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> Hi, I have here a request for an HP data administrator, please send me your cv and your daily rate expectation if you feel confident that you can perform the job below. Skills: TRU64, Scripting, DS8300. EMC knowledge would be beneficial but not essential Location : Brussels Sector Banking ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 10:31:05 -0500 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: TRU64 Project Message-ID: <13qm95jhgqg474c@news.supernews.com> We have European and US Consultants listed on our website (as a free service to the consultants) Go to www.islandco.com/consultants.html for a list of known capable contractors Regards -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 1207 East Highway 80 Suite D Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 912 786 8501 x201 Fax: 912 786 8505 E: dturner@islandco.com W: http://www.islandco.com The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. "Victor Kinlock" wrote in message news:9fe9396f-f6d7-4487-9f35-908b45f38c3e@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > Hi, > > I have here a request for an HP data administrator, please send me > your cv and your daily rate expectation if you feel confident that > you > can perform the job below. > > Skills: TRU64, Scripting, DS8300. EMC knowledge would be beneficial > but not essential > > Location : Brussels > > > Sector Banking ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:43:53 +0100 From: LC's No-Spam Newsreading account Subject: Re: Wrong place but desperate Message-ID: >> Is there anyone out there that can write a device driver for Tru64 5.1B Just passing by this NG. When I had an Alpha, an excellent help list (not a discussion forum, strict discipline but VERY helpful) was tru64-unix-managers@ornl.gov -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nospam@mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.076 ************************