INFO-VAX Tue, 04 Mar 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 127 Contents: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? 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Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:54:11 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: On Mar 3, 12:09 pm, "Dan Allen" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2...@yahoo.com] > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:28 AM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > > > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX > > systems run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V > > ac or 220 V to 240 V ac. The label on the power supply also > > says that. But I'm told that 208 V will work fine. Is that > > right? If not, what can I do? > > > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on 208 Volts? > > > Thanks! > > In case I wasn't clear in my previous response it sounds like your data center > has 208V 3 phase service from the power company. This is a very common (e.g. > "standard") form of service for commercial buildings. It provides 208V power > which is a common voltage for commercial lighting systems. It also provides 120V > power for standard wall outlets in the office spaces. So set your mVax switch to > 120V and plug it into any standard 120V wall outlet. If you want/need to run the > machine at 240V your plant people will need to install an appropriate > transformer and circuit inside the data center. You do not need to buy a 208V > UPS to get 120V power - you already have it. > > Dan My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be any standard 120 V outlets there. If it can adjust from 100 to 120 and from 220 to 240, why can't it do 208V? Is the documentation strictly right, or perhaps they haven't considered the possibility of 208 V? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:55:28 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <18ac4af2-632c-40e7-94c7-dac542c3dbcd@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 1:51 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > AEF writes: > >Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems > >run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to > >240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told > >that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? > > If this is a standard US 3 phase system, you'll have the usual 120 volts > between any line and the neutral, and 208 volts between any two lines. > Just hook the Microvax to a line-neutral circuit. In other words, to an > ordinary electrical outlet. The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any ordinary outlets there. > > >Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on 208 Volts? > > 208Y/120 volts is the most common three phase electrical service in the US. > Most smaller loads run at 120V line to neutral. The 220-240V option is > for most of the rest of the world where the line-neutral voltage is in > that range. > > You may see larger equipment racks with a plug using two or all three > phases, esp. overengineered DEC stuff. If you investigate, you'll see it > broken down into multiple 120V (US) circuits, except if there's a > refrigerator-sized CPU or something involved which runs on 3 phase. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:58:39 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <550fad1e-a3be-4c53-8139-1d759ce7e23a@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 2:44 pm, chrisj.do...@proemail.co.uk wrote: > On 3 Mar, 14:28, AEF wrote: > > > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems > > run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to > > 240 V ac. > > It depends which bit of which manual you read: The MicroVAX 3100 and > VAXServer 3100 Owner's Manual, EK-A0371.OM.002 dated August 1989 > contradicts itself. On page 2-9 it says: > > "The system will accept power inputs in the ranges 100/120 VAC and > _200_/240 VAC at 50 or 60 Hertz. Within these limits the power supply > is self-sensing and no selection or switching is required." > > However, Appendix D says _220_-240. > > The /40 and /80 manuals don't say anything about voltage in the "plug > it in" section, but the specification appendixes also say 100/120 VAC > and _220_/240 . > > OTOH the 1990 Systems and Options catalogue says (for /10 and /20) > "Universal Power Supply that automatically adjusts to 90-130V AC or > 180-260V AC." > > Since DEC overengineering should have allowed for an intermediate > voltage (130-180V) under brownout conditions, I wouldn't expect any > harm to come from just trying it. You might want to unplug the disk > drives, which are the only things with the slightest change of coming > to any harm through undervoltage. Power it up on 208V and check that > the 5V and 12V supplies are about right. > > But, of course, this may all be irrelevant given what others have been > saying about 3-phase notations. > > Chris Hmmm. The power supply itself says (at least the bad one I have now on my desk) INPUT: 100 - 120 V ~ 4,00 A 47-63 Hz 220 - 240 V ~ 2,00 A 47-63 Hz Now 208 is only 12 V lower than 220. Are the tolerances smaller than that? AEF ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 2008 19:22:04 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <6331esF24gi9iU1@mid.individual.net> In article , AEF writes: > > My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be > any standard 120 V outlets there. You talk like one precludes the other. I have in my computer room a lot of different power configurations. They amount to mostly just different outlets wired to different terminals in the breaker box. They certainly include a whole bunch of standard 110v (20A and even 30A). I can't believe there is nothing planned to be in the datacenter that will require 110 volts. No printers? No console terminals (or console PC's?) No tapedrives or other backup media? While some computer stuff runs on 208v everything certainly doesn't. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:26:01 -0500 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <001d01c87d64$6a335610$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 12:49 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > > On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 06:57:33 -0800, Dan Allen wrote: > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:22 AM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > >> > >> On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 05:28:10 -0800, AEF > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my > >> MicroVAX systems > >> > run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac > or 220 V to > >> > 240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But > >> I'm told > >> > that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? > >> > > >> > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run > on 208 Volts? > >> > > >> > Thanks! > >> > >> 240 is single phase, 208 is what you get with three phase, > the latter > >> being more efficient in terms of losses, since voltage and current > >> are 120 out of phase. > >> > >> -- > >> PL/I for OpenVMS > >> www.kednos.com > >> > > > > This subject can get confusing in short order. POCO service > from a Wye > > wound 3 phase transformer is 208V/120V - common in commercial > > settings. Phase to phase voltage is 208V which is commonly used for > > commercial lighting. Phase conductor to neutral in Wye > service is 120V > > for your standard wall outlets. POCO service from a Delta wound 3 > > phase transformer provides 240V phase to phase and 120V phase to > > neutral - popular for electric motor applications like > compressors and > > machine tools. > > Yes, it does, we aren't as well standardised as the European > there phase to phase (They don't have single phase AFAIK) > 380V/sqrt(3) = 220 V > > I don't see how the Delta works unless that have a separate > winding, 240 phase to phase would need 208 phase to neutral. > sqrt(3)/2 * 240 > Delta three phase is primarily intended for motor power. The 120V neutral is simply a center tap off one of the transformer windings just like 240/120V single phase. Perhaps this will help: http://www.kilowattclassroom.com/Archive/DELTAWYEPhasors.pdf For some pleasant light reading try the "Rotary Phase Converters and VFD's" sub-group at www.practicalmachinist.com ;-) If you live in my neighborhood I don't have a clue why your lights dim periodically.... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:29:37 -0500 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <002101c87d64$eb10d690$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 12:10 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > > In article > <3054152c-eea7-4234-aefd-643c8608df45@s8g2000prg.googlegroups. com>, AEF writes: > > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my > MicroVAX systems > > run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to > > 240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But > I'm told > > that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? > > > > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on 208 Volts? > > There's more than one way to measure AC voltage. If you put your > AC voltmeter into your 208V lines you may actually measure 220V. > In this case almost surely not. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:35:09 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: On Mar 3, 3:22 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > AEF writes: > > > > > My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be > > any standard 120 V outlets there. > > You talk like one precludes the other. I have in my computer room a lot > of different power configurations. They amount to mostly just different > outlets wired to different terminals in the breaker box. They certainly > include a whole bunch of standard 110v (20A and even 30A). I can't > believe there is nothing planned to be in the datacenter that will require > 110 volts. No printers? No console terminals (or console PC's?) No > tapedrives or other backup media? While some computer stuff runs on > 208v everything certainly doesn't. No printers. Consoler terminals/PC's? I'll check. Backup media, yes. I'll check. Thanks! > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 2008 19:36:54 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <6332alF24gi9iU3@mid.individual.net> In article <002101c87d64$eb10d690$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] >> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 12:10 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? >> >> In article >> <3054152c-eea7-4234-aefd-643c8608df45@s8g2000prg.googlegroups. > com>, AEF writes: >> > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my >> MicroVAX systems >> > run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to >> > 240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But >> I'm told >> > that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? >> > >> > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on 208 Volts? >> >> There's more than one way to measure AC voltage. If you put your >> AC voltmeter into your 208V lines you may actually measure 220V. >> > > In this case almost surely not. I think he is hinting at peak-to-peak versus RMS measurement. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:48:12 -0500 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <000201c87d67$83e8e180$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 1:54 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > > On Mar 3, 12:09 pm, "Dan Allen" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2...@yahoo.com] > > > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:28 AM > > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > Subject: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > > > > > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX > > > systems run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - > 120 V ac or > > > 220 V to 240 V ac. The label on the power supply also > says that. But > > > I'm told that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If > not, what can > > > I do? > > > > > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on > 208 Volts? > > > > > Thanks! > > > > In case I wasn't clear in my previous response it sounds like your > > data center has 208V 3 phase service from the power > company. This is a very common (e.g. > > "standard") form of service for commercial buildings. It > provides 208V > > power which is a common voltage for commercial lighting systems. It > > also provides 120V power for standard wall outlets in the office > > spaces. So set your mVax switch to 120V and plug it into > any standard > > 120V wall outlet. If you want/need to run the machine at 240V your > > plant people will need to install an appropriate transformer and > > circuit inside the data center. You do not need to buy a > 208V UPS to get 120V power - you already have it. > > > > Dan > > My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will > not be any standard 120 V outlets there. If it can adjust > from 100 to 120 and from 220 to 240, why can't it do 208V? Is > the documentation strictly right, or perhaps they haven't > considered the possibility of 208 V? > > AEF > I have no idea what voltages beyond the listed ones the machines will tolerate. But if the data center has 208Y/120 service (which it appears it does) get your plant people to run a 120V branch circuit for your machines. It's trivial - that voltage is already present in the existing load center. If the room has an unused 240V outlet/circuit all they need do is replace the 208V two pole circuit breaker in the load center with a 120V single pole breaker and replace the 240V receptacle(s) in the room with 120V receptacle(s). If they are feeding other 120V circuits from that panel they may want to shuffle the breaker layout a bit to balance the phase loads but it's Electrician 101. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 19:50:46 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: AEF writes: >On Mar 3, 1:51 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) >wrote: >> AEF writes: >> >Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems >> >run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to >> >240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told >> >that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? >> >> If this is a standard US 3 phase system, you'll have the usual 120 volts >> between any line and the neutral, and 208 volts between any two lines. >> Just hook the Microvax to a line-neutral circuit. In other words, to an >> ordinary electrical outlet. >The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any >ordinary outlets there. I would be *very* surprised to see any data center (in the US/Canada) that did *not* have tons and tons of ordinary 120V outlets available, esp. with all the 120V widgets and gadgets that need them, and with 120V so readily available with a 208V 3 phase supply. Most data centers have a bunch of outlets (both ordinary 120V outlets and 120V 30A twist lock outlets as well as 120V/208V 3 phase outlets) below the raised floor. Common in Digital were overhead buss bars supplying 120V/208V 3 phase to a row of 4 conductor outlets of a type I haven't seen used elsewhere. You'd then plug in a box into this outlet which had outlets of its own, either 120V (up to 6, one duplex per phase), 120V 30A twist locks or 3 phase. The VAX 9000 had its own "elephant trunk" feed. You'd then plug in your devices. Very easy to reconfigure. If you deinstalled a huge VAX, you'd remove a few 3 phase boxes, replace them with boxes with 120V duplexes and you were ready to go for a bunch of smaller stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:40:07 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47CC6227.4020109@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Mar 3, 1:51 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: > >>AEF writes: >> >>>Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems >>>run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to >>>240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told >>>that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? >> >>If this is a standard US 3 phase system, you'll have the usual 120 volts >>between any line and the neutral, and 208 volts between any two lines. >>Just hook the Microvax to a line-neutral circuit. In other words, to an >>ordinary electrical outlet. > > > The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any > ordinary outlets there. > Sounds like a very strange datacenter to me! Sure, there may be a few big boxes that suck up three phase power and the air conditioning may need it as well but a LOT of equipment is designed for and requires 110-120 VAC. Some equipment can "auto-sense" what voltage is present and do the right thing but don't count on it unless the instructions say so explicitly!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:49:27 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <544e3738-64f5-4ac4-82c6-6d4c5b16bebd@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 8:28 am, AEF wrote: > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems > run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to > 240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told > that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? > > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on 208 Volts? > > Thanks! AEF, Please be careful! Mutli-phase power is wired differently than single phase. Single phase has Hot, Neutral, and optionally Ground. Multiple phase power has multiple hot legs. - Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:51:35 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <3398124e-02e4-43c8-bf76-1b173d44f5c6@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 3:50 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > AEF writes: > >On Mar 3, 1:51 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >wrote: > >> AEF writes: > >> >Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems > >> >run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to > >> >240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told > >> >that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? > > >> If this is a standard US 3 phase system, you'll have the usual 120 volts > >> between any line and the neutral, and 208 volts between any two lines. > >> Just hook the Microvax to a line-neutral circuit. In other words, to an > >> ordinary electrical outlet. > >The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any > >ordinary outlets there. > > I would be *very* surprised to see any data center (in the US/Canada) > that did *not* have tons and tons of ordinary 120V outlets available, esp. > with all the 120V widgets and gadgets that need them, and with 120V so > readily available with a 208V 3 phase supply. > > Most data centers have a bunch of outlets (both ordinary 120V outlets and > 120V 30A twist lock outlets as well as 120V/208V 3 phase outlets) below > the raised floor. Common in Digital were overhead buss bars supplying > 120V/208V 3 phase to a row of 4 conductor outlets of a type I haven't seen > used elsewhere. You'd then plug in a box into this outlet which had > outlets of its own, either 120V (up to 6, one duplex per phase), 120V 30A > twist locks or 3 phase. The VAX 9000 had its own "elephant trunk" feed. > You'd then plug in your devices. Very easy to reconfigure. If you > deinstalled a huge VAX, you'd remove a few 3 phase boxes, replace them > with boxes with 120V duplexes and you were ready to go for a bunch of > smaller stuff. OK. I just found out there will be some 110 V strips, but they may not have "power diversity", but my equip will be DR and dev, monitoring and archive, and at least it would work. But only certain cabs will have 110 V strips, so I now just have to make sure I get in such a cab or have them put in my cab. I somehow got the mistaken impression that there would be ONLY 208 V. But still it's going to take some effort to be sure I have 120 V (or 110, or whatever) available for my cabs. (Note I'm only getting 3.5 cabs in the entire place.) Thanks to all responders. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:51:33 GMT From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:54:11 -0800 (PST), AEF wrote: > My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be > any standard 120 V outlets there. If it can adjust from 100 to 120 and > from 220 to 240, why can't it do 208V? Is the documentation strictly > right, or perhaps they haven't considered the possibility of 208 V? It cannot do 208V because 208 is THREE-phase power while 100-120 and 220-240 are SINGLE-phase power. Different cables, different plugs, different number of conductors (3 or 4 vs. 2) and so on. It's quite like asking why you cannot connect your washing machine to the gas pipe instead of the water one :-P G. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:02:37 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47cc67d2$0$1460$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Dan Allen wrote: > "standard") form of service for commercial buildings. It provides 208V power > which is a common voltage for commercial lighting systems. Is it possile some lighting systems work on 347 volts ? I seem to recall seeing this while deploying serial lines via suspended ceililng in an office when I installed my first all Mighty Microvax II. I had been told that one big advantage is that at that voltage, they need smaller gauge wires (less amperage flowing through) and this saves megabucks on the scale of an office tower. And the 347 supposedly came from 3phase power. BTW, on a 3100-30 VAXstation, the power supply is H7821-00 It is a switching power supply, automatically adapts between 100-120 and 220-240. When you see a "~" sign near the voltages, it normally indicates that the power supply automatically switches between the two. (no need to flick a switch). Another aspect to look at is the frequency. It may assume 50hz when running in 220-240 mode. And even if you might be able to power it up and boot with the 208 voltage, it doesn't mean that this should be left on permanently. IT may be quite a strain on the power supply to have to compensate for low voltage. (aka: they may be able to ride out short periods of a power drop, but not a good idea to have them permanently in low power). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:02:54 GMT From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <9dpos31lmfettarlna66dv5uvn22aau8sf@4ax.com> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:58:39 -0800 (PST), AEF wrote: > Hmmm. The power supply itself says (at least the bad one I have now on > my desk) > > INPUT: > 100 - 120 V ~ 4,00 A 47-63 Hz > 220 - 240 V ~ 2,00 A 47-63 Hz > > Now 208 is only 12 V lower than 220. Are the tolerances smaller than > that? It's not (only) a tolerances problem. You are comparing different entities: 100-120 and 220-240 are single-phase, so you'll have on wire "coming in" to the PSU and one "coming out" from the PSU, hot and neutral, live and neutral, phase and neutral, or whatever you call them. 208 is three-phase, so you'll have three wires "coming in" and just one "coming out" or even just three wires that are both "in" and "out" cyclically, about 60 times per second. Anyway it's true that from three-phase power you can obtain single-phase power by connecting in a somewhat particular way the three-phase cables to your PSU. G. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 2008 21:02:54 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <6337buF1ucrfeU1@mid.individual.net> In article <47CC6227.4020109@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > AEF wrote: >> On Mar 3, 1:51 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) >> wrote: >> >>>AEF writes: >>> >>>>Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems >>>>run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to >>>>240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told >>>>that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? >>> >>>If this is a standard US 3 phase system, you'll have the usual 120 volts >>>between any line and the neutral, and 208 volts between any two lines. >>>Just hook the Microvax to a line-neutral circuit. In other words, to an >>>ordinary electrical outlet. >> >> >> The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any >> ordinary outlets there. >> > > Sounds like a very strange datacenter to me! Sure, there may be a few > big boxes that suck up three phase power and the air conditioning may > need it as well but a LOT of equipment is designed for and requires > 110-120 VAC. Some equipment can "auto-sense" what voltage is present > and do the right thing but don't count on it unless the instructions say > so explicitly!!!!!! Sounds like real poor planning to me. Shouldn't they have figured out everything that was going to be going into the data center and then arranged for where it all would be placed and then ensured that all the necessary power was in place where it was going to be needed? I am not used to the "throw everything in the air and where it lands is where it runs" method of planning. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:08:29 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47cc6931$0$1460$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> AEF wrote: > My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be > any standard 120 V outlets there. If it can adjust from 100 to 120 and > from 220 to 240, why can't it do 208V? Mention your machines are single phase systems and that the data centre will need to provide you with a single phase outlet. I am pretty sure that these days, a data centre can't function solely on 3phase power outlets. And I would suspect some of the cabinets that are powered with 3 phase will have a power unit at the base with single phase 110v outlets in it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:09:15 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47cc6960$0$1460$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> AEF wrote: > The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any > ordinary outlets there. Extension cord to the nearest 110V outlet in the building ? :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:14:55 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47cc6ab3$0$1460$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Dan Allen wrote: > But if the data center has 208Y/120 service (which it appears it does) get your > plant people to run a 120V branch circuit for your machines. It's trivial Tell them you need 110V for a VAX vacuum cleaner to keep the room clean. :-) :-) :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:36:24 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <2517bafa-744a-40c4-8b48-b7dcf6bbbeaa@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 5:02 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <47CC6227.4020...@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > > > > AEF wrote: > >> On Mar 3, 1:51 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >> wrote: > > >>>AEF writes: > > >>>>Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems > >>>>run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to > >>>>240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told > >>>>that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? > > >>>If this is a standard US 3 phase system, you'll have the usual 120 volts > >>>between any line and the neutral, and 208 volts between any two lines. > >>>Just hook the Microvax to a line-neutral circuit. In other words, to an > >>>ordinary electrical outlet. > > >> The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any > >> ordinary outlets there. > > > Sounds like a very strange datacenter to me! Sure, there may be a few > > big boxes that suck up three phase power and the air conditioning may > > need it as well but a LOT of equipment is designed for and requires > > 110-120 VAC. Some equipment can "auto-sense" what voltage is present > > and do the right thing but don't count on it unless the instructions say > > so explicitly!!!!!! > > Sounds like real poor planning to me. Shouldn't they have figured out > everything that was going to be going into the data center and then > arranged for where it all would be placed and then ensured that all > the necessary power was in place where it was going to be needed? I > am not used to the "throw everything in the air and where it lands > is where it runs" method of planning. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Well, I think it was assumed that all servers except the Stratus are auto adjust from 100 - 250 V. And there are some 110 V strips that will be added. But no one told me any of this and I didn't know there would be anything other than 120 V power to plug into. And my machines are a very small percentage of the total, so my systems aren't at the top of everyone's minds! But G. just brought up the 3-phase bit so I sent another email to people here asking about that. Can modern servers also run on single OR 3-phase automatically? I'll read those Wikipedia articles referenced next (but I'm going home now) so if the answer is not there I'm asking here. Thanks again everyone! AEF AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:38:28 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <34db0d1f-ab14-430a-97c8-71b24fc3c3a4@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 4:51 pm, gerr...@no.spam.mail.com wrote: > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:54:11 -0800 (PST), AEF wrote: > > My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be > > any standard 120 V outlets there. If it can adjust from 100 to 120 and > > from 220 to 240, why can't it do 208V? Is the documentation strictly > > right, or perhaps they haven't considered the possibility of 208 V? > > It cannot do 208V because 208 is THREE-phase power while 100-120 and 220-240 > are SINGLE-phase power. Different cables, different plugs, different number of > conductors (3 or 4 vs. 2) and so on. It's quite like asking why you cannot > connect your washing machine to the gas pipe instead of the water one :-P > > G. But were using the standard power cords except that the end that goes into the receptacle has some weird sleeve over what looks like the receptacle in the server (so you can chain them!). Yes, we have to order all new power cords for everything because of this. Thanks for your help. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:10:56 -0500 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <000001c87d7b$7424d740$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com [mailto:gerry77@no.spam.mail.com] > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 4:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:58:39 -0800 (PST), AEF > wrote: > > > Hmmm. The power supply itself says (at least the bad one I > have now on > > my desk) > > > > INPUT: > > 100 - 120 V ~ 4,00 A 47-63 Hz > > 220 - 240 V ~ 2,00 A 47-63 Hz > > > > Now 208 is only 12 V lower than 220. Are the tolerances > smaller than > > that? > > It's not (only) a tolerances problem. You are comparing > different entities: > 100-120 and 220-240 are single-phase, so you'll have on wire > "coming in" to the PSU and one "coming out" from the PSU, hot > and neutral, live and neutral, phase and neutral, or whatever > you call them. 208 is three-phase, so you'll have three wires > "coming in" and just one "coming out" or even just three > wires that are both "in" and "out" cyclically, about 60 times > per second. > > Anyway it's true that from three-phase power you can obtain > single-phase power by connecting in a somewhat particular way > the three-phase cables to your PSU. > > G. > You seem to have a mis-perception of what 3 phase power is. Standard household single phase power to residences is nothing more than a selective distribution of the three phase power usually present at the POCO's distribution lines. A transformer outside your house is connected to two of the 3 phase distribution legs. The transformer steps the voltage down from transmission voltages and the secondary is center tapped for a neutral. You can do the same inside a building that has three phase service. Machine tools that run on 3 phase power often use simple 2:1 step down transformers to take the 240V phase to phase power off two of the three phase legs and output 120V "single phase" power to run lights, electronic equipment, motor controls, my stereo, etc.... Nothing peculiar about it in the slightest. The issue with the data center is simply that the POCO transformer is serving up 208V line voltage rather than 240V. If the phase to phase line voltage is right the single phase equipment doesn't care three phase or single phase supply - its just an AC current flow over a pair of conductors. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:36:21 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com writes: >On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:54:11 -0800 (PST), AEF wrote: >> My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be >> any standard 120 V outlets there. If it can adjust from 100 to 120 and >> from 220 to 240, why can't it do 208V? Is the documentation strictly >> right, or perhaps they haven't considered the possibility of 208 V? >It cannot do 208V because 208 is THREE-phase power while 100-120 and 220-240 >are SINGLE-phase power. Actually you can. If you connect something between any 2 of the 3 "hot" phases of a 208Y/120 volt system, you'll feed that something with 208 volts, single phase. In fact, a very common problem for apartment complex dwellers is their breaker panel is supplied with 2 phases of a 120Y/208 volt 3 phase system rather than the usual 120/240 volt supply. All 120V devices work normally, but something like an electric stove or dryer that expects 240 volts will get only 208 volts, and will take longer to heat up/dry the clothes. 208v heating elements exist, but you first have to know they exist, and know your apartment is getting 208V and not 240V, and be willing to spend $ to replace perfectly functional heating elements. Or convince the landlord to do so if he owns the appliances. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:40:56 GMT From: Alfred Falk Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in news:6331esF24gi9iU1@mid.individual.net: > In article > , > AEF writes: >> >> My MircoVAX systems are going in the data center. There will not be >> any standard 120 V outlets there. > > You talk like one precludes the other. I have in my computer room a > lot of different power configurations. They amount to mostly just > different outlets wired to different terminals in the breaker box. > They certainly include a whole bunch of standard 110v (20A and even > 30A). I can't believe there is nothing planned to be in the > datacenter that will require 110 volts. No printers? No console > terminals (or console PC's?) No tapedrives or other backup media? > While some computer stuff runs on 208v everything certainly doesn't. Seconded. Indeed, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would set up a room for _anything_ in North America without at least _some_ ordinary 120V 15A receptacles. We have 208V feed into some of our racks, using 5000VA UPSes. While the main output on the back of each UPS is a 208V-30A receptacle, there are also 20A and 15A 120V receptacles (with 5A breakers). Sensible design. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- A L B E R T A Alfred Falk falk@arc.ab.ca R E S E A R C H Information Systems Dept (780)450-5185 C O U N C I L 250 Karl Clark Road Edmonton, Alberta, Canada http://www.arc.ab.ca/ T6N 1E4 http://outside.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:46:18 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: >Dan Allen wrote: >> "standard") form of service for commercial buildings. It provides 208V power >> which is a common voltage for commercial lighting systems. >Is it possile some lighting systems work on 347 volts ? I seem to recall >seeing this while deploying serial lines via suspended ceililng in an >office when I installed my first all Mighty Microvax II. Many facilities in the US large enough to be fed by a 480Y/277 volt system rather than 208Y/120v will have 277 volt lighting. 600Y/347 volt systems are rare in the US but common in Canada, and I assume they use 347 volt lighting in similar situations. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:51:52 GMT From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <67uos3ppf89ah94s8mcp2fli5tk7928bft@4ax.com> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:10:56 -0500, "Dan Allen" wrote: > single phase power to residences is nothing more than a selective distribution > of the three phase power usually present at the POCO's distribution lines. A Yes, I know. I was just trying to explain in a simple way to AEF that the difference between 208 and 220-240 is not only a little arithmetic difference. BTW, here (Italy) we have 220 single-phase and 380 three-phase power. In residences we have only 220 volts single-phase power which is used for everything ranging from TV and PCs to washing machines and electric ovens. It's my understanding that in the US many people have 120 volts for lightning and 208 volts for heavy use such as ovens and dryers, am I right? G. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 18:35:43 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47cc8bd7$0$25414$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> gerry77@no.spam.mail.com wrote: > It's my understanding that in the US many people have 120 volts for lightning > and 208 volts for heavy use such as ovens and dryers, am I right? Not quite. There is 110 and 220 volt in homes. Actually, at one specific point in time, one wire is at -110, one is at 0 (ground) and one is at +110. (of course, this changes all the time due to power being AC). By taking wires 1 and 3, you get 220 volt. But taking wires (1 and 2) or (3 and 2) you get 110 volts AC. Typically, half the house is wired to use 1 and 2, the other half for 3 and 2. Appliances that use 220 are typically the stove, clothes dryer, water heater and heat pump/air conditioner. (if you have all electric heat, those use 220 as well). ------------------------------ Date: 03 Mar 2008 18:44:04 -0500 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: AEF writes: > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on 208 Volts? The 2065 and 1090 in my computer room run on 3-phase 208VDC, at about 8KVA. BTW: 208 3-phase is equivalent to 220, NOT 120. -- Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:44:31 -0500 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <000301c87d88$8705fd00$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > -----Original Message----- > From: gerry77@no.spam.mail.com [mailto:gerry77@no.spam.mail.com] > Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:52 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? > > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:10:56 -0500, "Dan Allen" > wrote: > > > single phase power to residences is nothing more than a selective > > distribution of the three phase power usually present at the POCO's > > distribution lines. A > > Yes, I know. I was just trying to explain in a simple way to > AEF that the difference between 208 and 220-240 is not only a > little arithmetic difference. > > BTW, here (Italy) we have 220 single-phase and 380 > three-phase power. In residences we have only 220 volts > single-phase power which is used for everything ranging from > TV and PCs to washing machines and electric ovens. > It's my understanding that in the US many people have 120 > volts for lightning and 208 volts for heavy use such as ovens > and dryers, am I right? > > G. > See previous poster's comments wrt single phase residential service from a 120/208Y service drop. "Standard" household service in the US is 240V single phase with a grounded center-tapped neutral conductor providing 120V connections for almost all uses. Clothes dryers, ranges, HVAC equipment, and hot water heaters are about the only 240V equipments in US homes. Dan ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 08 18:58:27 EST From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: In article <67uos3ppf89ah94s8mcp2fli5tk7928bft@4ax.com>, gerry77@no.spam.mail.com writes: > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:10:56 -0500, "Dan Allen" wrote: > >> single phase power to residences is nothing more than a selective distribution >> of the three phase power usually present at the POCO's distribution lines. A > > Yes, I know. I was just trying to explain in a simple way to AEF that the > difference between 208 and 220-240 is not only a little arithmetic difference. > > BTW, here (Italy) we have 220 single-phase and 380 three-phase power. In > residences we have only 220 volts single-phase power which is used for > everything ranging from TV and PCs to washing machines and electric ovens. > It's my understanding that in the US many people have 120 volts for lightning > and 208 volts for heavy use such as ovens and dryers, am I right? In the US, residential (single family homes) power is normally provided from a 240V center tapped transformer with the neutral (aka the white wire) being attached to the center tap. The two hot wires come from either end of the transformer. Connecting across the neutral and either hot provides 120V. Connecting across the two hots provides 240V. The neutral is connected (aka bonded) to earth ground which is why it is more accurate to refer to it as the "grounded wire." The other side of the transformer is connected to a single phase of the three power grid phases. Our datacenter has a nominal 480V utility feed. The actual voltage varies from 490 to 510 depending on time of day and the season while our emergency generator output is within a volt or two of 480. A lot of our office room air conditioning and lighting is 277V. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 19:20:31 -0500 From: "Dan Allen" Subject: RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <000701c87d8d$8e810520$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov> > The neutral is connected (aka > bonded) to earth ground which is why it is more accurate to > refer to it as the "grounded wire." To be NEC style accurate the neutral is a "grounded conductor" so as to distinguish it from the "other" grounded wire ;-) The other side of the > transformer is connected to a single phase of the three power > grid phases. > > Our datacenter has a nominal 480V utility feed. The actual > voltage varies from 490 to 510 depending on time of day and > the season while our emergency generator output is within a > volt or two of 480. A lot of our office room air > conditioning and lighting is 277V. > > > George Cook > WVNET > How's life in Morgantown "after Rich" ??? Dan (aka TheOldHokie) who went South instead of North Montani Semper Liberi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:23:30 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47CCA492.9020609@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <47CC6227.4020109@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>AEF wrote: >> >>>On Mar 3, 1:51 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>>>AEF writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems >>>>>run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to >>>>>240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told >>>>>that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? >>>> >>>>If this is a standard US 3 phase system, you'll have the usual 120 volts >>>>between any line and the neutral, and 208 volts between any two lines. >>>>Just hook the Microvax to a line-neutral circuit. In other words, to an >>>>ordinary electrical outlet. >>> >>> >>>The MicroVAX systems are going in the data center. There won't be any >>>ordinary outlets there. >>> >> >>Sounds like a very strange datacenter to me! Sure, there may be a few >>big boxes that suck up three phase power and the air conditioning may >>need it as well but a LOT of equipment is designed for and requires >>110-120 VAC. Some equipment can "auto-sense" what voltage is present >>and do the right thing but don't count on it unless the instructions say >>so explicitly!!!!!! > > > Sounds like real poor planning to me. Shouldn't they have figured out > everything that was going to be going into the data center and then > arranged for where it all would be placed and then ensured that all > the necessary power was in place where it was going to be needed? I > am not used to the "throw everything in the air and where it lands > is where it runs" method of planning. > > bill > IF you are building and equipping a NEW data center, you do that careful planning. As that data center ages and new equipment replaces old, you may find that your planning had a few gaps. I've seen IBM disk drives that occupied a double width cabinet and had something like a five horse power electric motor to spin it! Mind you, this was back in 1998/99 and the equipment in question was antique even then! (I noticed this stuff when it was being hauled away as scrap.) I could fit more storage in my shirt pocket than two or three of those drives represented. The power connections required by that antique were incompatible with my RZ26 and RZ28 drives or even the requirements of the shelves I installed them in! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:42:08 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: <47CCA8F0.A0F461A7@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > Our new data center will have 208 Volt power. Can my MicroVAX systems > run on that? The specs in the manual say 100 - 120 V ac or 220 V to > 240 V ac. The label on the power supply also says that. But I'm told > that 208 V will work fine. Is that right? If not, what can I do? Many power supplies have a tolerance of +/- 10% for the input voltage. 208 + 10% = 228.8 220 - 10% = 198 ..., so you should be good there in either case. A 208 requirement is in spec when supplied with 220. A 220 requirement is in spec when supplied with 208. Check the spec.'s first, of course. > Bonus question: Since when does computer equipment run on 208 Volts? See the accompanying posts re: three-phase power in the U.S. David J Dachtera (formerly dba) DJE Systems ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 08 20:58:36 EST From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: RE: Can a MicroVAX 3100 run on 208V? Message-ID: In article <000701c87d8d$8e810520$1f3a0681@sdct.nist.gov>, "Dan Allen" writes: >> The neutral is connected (aka >> bonded) to earth ground which is why it is more accurate to >> refer to it as the "grounded wire." > > To be NEC style accurate the neutral is a "grounded conductor" so as to > distinguish it from the "other" grounded wire ;-) Yes, the NEC terminology can be confusing. While a neutral is a "grounded conductor", a safety ground wire (aka the green or bare wire) is a "grounding conductor." Also a "grounded conductor" is only a "neutral" when used in a circuit with more than one hot wire. > The other side of the >> transformer is connected to a single phase of the three power >> grid phases. >> >> Our datacenter has a nominal 480V utility feed. The actual >> voltage varies from 490 to 510 depending on time of day and >> the season while our emergency generator output is within a >> volt or two of 480. A lot of our office room air >> conditioning and lighting is 277V. >> >> >> George Cook >> WVNET >> > > How's life in Morgantown "after Rich" ??? I was a little surprised how many people said good riddance. The people of the state want a winning team, but not at the cost of their self respect. > Dan (aka TheOldHokie) who went South instead of North > Montani Semper Liberi George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:15:09 -0800 (PST) From: res0o7il@yahoo.com Subject: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: <343a8643-1669-4cab-a933-6013743b6bbe@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Does anyone know of a fast encryption tool for use on VMS? I have a customer who sent some tapes through UPS, and one got lost. This scared the hell out of them when they realised how much personal data was on there. They now want those tapes encrypted. I've tested with PGP for VMS, and it failed to encrypt and decrypt the save set properly. I tried GPG, and it took 11 hours to encrypt, which is way too long. I know there's an encryption subsystem in VMS 7.3-1 and upwards, but I'll have to put together a spare machine on that version to try it (I'm stuck in a 6.2 backwater for various reasons.) Does anyone have any good suggestions? As the customer put it, we're not trying to defeat a determined attack from the military, just do due dilligence. Shane ##### #-O-O-# # L # "The universe runs on the complex interweaving of three elements: #===# energy, matter and enlightened self-interest." - G'Kar, Babylon 5 ### "Bad things happen when the 'enlightened' bit is missing." - Shane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:29:42 -0600 (CST) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: <08030321294230_20200512@antinode.org> From: res0o7il@yahoo.com > Does anyone know of a fast encryption tool for use on VMS? I have a > customer who sent some tapes through UPS, and one got lost. This > scared the hell out of them when they realised how much personal data > was on there. They now want those tapes encrypted. > > I've tested with PGP for VMS, and it failed to encrypt and decrypt the > save set properly. Does that mean that merely running the usual attribute restoration procedure doesn't fix everything? If proper attribute preservation is critical for some reason, is there any reason not to use "zip -V" on the data file before doing the encryption? > I tried GPG, and it took 11 hours to encrypt, which > is way too long. Which "PGP for VMS"? Which "GPG"? Eleven hours for how much stuff? Running on what? Fast compared to what? How good do you want the encryption? Nowadays, I'd expect most folks to use GnuPG instead of PGP, but I wouldn't expect much of a speed difference between them. (Of course, I don't run more than trivial tests on any of the stuff, so my opinion may lack value.) > I know there's an encryption subsystem in VMS 7.3-1 > and upwards, but I'll have to put together a spare machine on that > version to try it (I'm stuck in a 6.2 backwater for various reasons.) So, are you looking for a solution on VMS V6.2 or on something less obsolete? > Does anyone have any good suggestions? As the customer put it, we're > not trying to defeat a determined attack from the military, just do > due dilligence. That rather depends on how much dilligence is due. If rather low-quality encryption would be adequate, then you might consider using that built into Zip and UnZip. Not knowing exactly what you've tried so far, let alone where the performance bottleneck is on what you've tried so far, or what your actual requirements are, it'd be tough to make any firm recommendations, even if I knew something. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:15:56 -0800 (PST) From: ewilts@ewilts.org Subject: Re: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: On Mar 3, 7:15 pm, res0o...@yahoo.com wrote: > Does anyone know of a fast encryption tool for use on VMS? I have a > customer who sent some tapes through UPS, and one got lost. This > scared the hell out of them when they realised how much personal data > was on there. They now want those tapes encrypted. > > I've tested with PGP for VMS, and it failed to encrypt and decrypt the > save set properly. I tried GPG, and it took 11 hours to encrypt, which > is way too long. I know there's an encryption subsystem in VMS 7.3-1 > and upwards, but I'll have to put together a spare machine on that > version to try it (I'm stuck in a 6.2 backwater for various reasons.) > > Does anyone have any good suggestions? As the customer put it, we're > not trying to defeat a determined attack from the military, just do > due dilligence. For of all, all software-based encryption sucks. The slower the hardware, the more it sucks. I don't know if encryption module for VMS Backup makes it much better, but I suspect that there's not much you are going to be able to do with software-based encryption. Given that you're at 6.2, your options are certainly limited, and your hardware probably isn't all that fast. I'd suggest that you look at a hardware-based encryption device if you're doing this more than once. Contact your local NetApp dealer and enquire into a Decru encryption device. They make SCSI versions that hang between your system and your tape drive (and also fibre channel ones but I suspect you don't have have that installed or you'd be more current on the OS). For our environment, we run the NetBackup client on VMS (and it's awesome) and pump all the data to fibre-attached LTO-3 drives front- ended by Decru encryption appliances. It works like a charm. .../Ed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:20:58 -0800 (PST) From: a13365@yahoo.com Subject: IP address in VMS Message-ID: Hello, I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys help. - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address should be changed to new one? Thanks a lot. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:53:58 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <47CCABB6.89522F2E@spam.comcast.net> a13365@yahoo.com wrote: > > Hello, > I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys > help. > - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? > - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address > should be changed to new one? > > Thanks a lot. DHCP client for any VMS IP stack is a relatively new development. So, the likelihood is low. Still, the first thing you'll have to know is which IP stack the system is running. Likely candidates are: - TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS (UCX) from HP - Multinet from Process Software Corp. - TCPware from Process Software Corp. Post back with that info we'll be able to provide more help. David J Dachtera (formerly dba) DJE Systems ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:58:27 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <47CCACC3.1080902@comcast.net> a13365@yahoo.com wrote: > Hello, > I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys > help. > - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? > - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address > should be changed to new one? > > Thanks a lot. TCP/IP on VMS *can* be confgured with DHCP although, in my experience, it is not usually done. VMS is usually used as a server of some sort and you generally want to know what it's IP address is and not have it subject to change if the system reboots. To investigate the TCP/IP configuration, see TCPIP HELP or read the Management Manual(s) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:59:20 -0800 (PST) From: a13365@yahoo.com Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <5ae99797-92c1-45be-8159-404ee1c93c27@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 8:53 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > a13...@yahoo.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys > > help. > > - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? > > - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address > > should be changed to new one? > > > Thanks a lot. > > DHCP client for any VMS IP stack is a relatively new development. So, > the likelihood is low. > > Still, the first thing you'll have to know is which IP stack the system > is running. > > Likely candidates are: > - TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS (UCX) from HP > - Multinet from Process Software Corp. > - TCPware from Process Software Corp. > > Post back with that info we'll be able to provide more help. > > David J Dachtera > (formerly dba) DJE Systems Dvaid, We use TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS (UCX) from HP. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:09:14 -0800 (PST) From: a13365@yahoo.com Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <80068ab1-c0a9-4555-8032-0941eb324b44@y77g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 8:58 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > a13...@yahoo.com wrote: > > Hello, > > I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys > > help. > > - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? > > - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address > > should be changed to new one? > > > Thanks a lot. > > TCP/IP on VMS *can* be confgured with DHCP although, in my experience, > it is not usually done. VMS is usually used as a server of some sort > and you generally want to know what it's IP address is and not have it > subject to change if the system reboots. > > To investigate the TCP/IP configuration, see TCPIP HELP or read the > Management Manual(s) So we have to change ip address if the server will move to new location. That is all what I want to know. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:17:02 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <47ccb184$0$1490$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> a13365@yahoo.com wrote: > So we have to change ip address if the server will move to new > location. That is all what I want to know. Does DIR SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM reveal that file exists ? If so, $ TCPIP SHOW VERSION would tell you which version of the TCPIP stack you have (Tcpip Services). If you have a SYS$MANAGER:UCX$CONFIG.COM it means you have an older version of UCX which definitely does not support DHCP as client. There is also MULTINET, (I think the MULTINET command would exist), as well as older stacks from other suppliers. Are you on VAX or Alpha ? If you do SHOW SYSTEM, you should see the VMS version on the top of the screen. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:18:23 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <47CCB16F.8030508@comcast.net> a13365@yahoo.com wrote: > On Mar 3, 8:58 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > >>a13...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>>Hello, >>>I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys >>>help. >>>- How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? >>>- If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address >>>should be changed to new one? >> >>>Thanks a lot. >> >>TCP/IP on VMS *can* be confgured with DHCP although, in my experience, >>it is not usually done. VMS is usually used as a server of some sort >>and you generally want to know what it's IP address is and not have it >>subject to change if the system reboots. >> >>To investigate the TCP/IP configuration, see TCPIP HELP or read the >>Management Manual(s) > > > So we have to change ip address if the server will move to new > location. That is all what I want to know. > > Thanks It depends! The physical location of the machine is not very important! If you connect the machine to a different network you may need to reconfigure TCP/IP. More than the IP address may need to be changed! You might need a new subnet mask, the addresses of different DNS servers, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:22:27 -0800 (PST) From: a13365@yahoo.com Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <81690ede-7779-4acd-a9fa-8ea837cd206d@y77g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 9:17 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > a13...@yahoo.com wrote: > > So we have to change ip address if the server will move to new > > location. That is all what I want to know. > > Does DIR SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM reveal that file exists ? > > If so, $ TCPIP SHOW VERSION would tell you which version of the TCPIP > stack you have (Tcpip Services). > > If you have a SYS$MANAGER:UCX$CONFIG.COM it means you have an older > version of UCX which definitely does not support DHCP as client. > > There is also MULTINET, (I think the MULTINET command would exist), as > well as older stacks from other suppliers. > > Are you on VAX or Alpha ? > > If you do SHOW SYSTEM, you should see the VMS version on the top of the > screen. On VAX. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:42:58 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <47CCB732.4020102@comcast.net> a13365@yahoo.com wrote: > Hello, > I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys > help. > - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? > - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address > should be changed to new one? > > Thanks a lot. If you ask very general questions, you are likely to get very general answers! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:46:27 -0800 (PST) From: a13365@yahoo.com Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: On Mar 3, 9:18 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > a13...@yahoo.com wrote: > > On Mar 3, 8:58 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > wrote: > > >>a13...@yahoo.com wrote: > > >>>Hello, > >>>I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys > >>>help. > >>>- How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? > >>>- If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address > >>>should be changed to new one? > > >>>Thanks a lot. > > >>TCP/IP on VMS *can* be confgured with DHCP although, in my experience, > >>it is not usually done. VMS is usually used as a server of some sort > >>and you generally want to know what it's IP address is and not have it > >>subject to change if the system reboots. > > >>To investigate the TCP/IP configuration, see TCPIP HELP or read the > >>Management Manual(s) > > > So we have to change ip address if the server will move to new > > location. That is all what I want to know. > > > Thanks > > It depends! The physical location of the machine is not very important! > If you connect the machine to a different network you may need to > reconfigure TCP/IP. More than the IP address may need to be changed! > You might need a new subnet mask, the addresses of different DNS > servers, etc. Thanks. It is a different network. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:30:00 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <47CCC238.3090206@comcast.net> a13365@yahoo.com wrote: > On Mar 3, 9:18 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > >>a13...@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>>On Mar 3, 8:58 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>>wrote: >> >>>>a13...@yahoo.com wrote: >>> >>>>>Hello, >>>>>I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys >>>>>help. >>>>>- How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? >>>>>- If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address >>>>>should be changed to new one? >>>> >>>>>Thanks a lot. >>>> >>>>TCP/IP on VMS *can* be confgured with DHCP although, in my experience, >>>>it is not usually done. VMS is usually used as a server of some sort >>>>and you generally want to know what it's IP address is and not have it >>>>subject to change if the system reboots. >>> >>>>To investigate the TCP/IP configuration, see TCPIP HELP or read the >>>>Management Manual(s) >>> >>>So we have to change ip address if the server will move to new >>>location. That is all what I want to know. >> >>>Thanks >> >>It depends! The physical location of the machine is not very important! >>If you connect the machine to a different network you may need to >>reconfigure TCP/IP. More than the IP address may need to be changed! >>You might need a new subnet mask, the addresses of different DNS >>servers, etc. > > > Thanks. It is a different network. Okay. Now we can get more specific. You will need a new IP address and possibly, a new net mask. Ask your network manager what IP address and net mask you should use. Which TCP/IP stack are you using? TCP/IP Services for VMS (also known as UCX) or one of the third party stacks? (Multinet, Wolongong, CMU, etc.) Which version of VMS are you using and which version of the TCP/IP stack? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:58:37 -0600 From: Michael Austin Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > a13365@yahoo.com wrote: >> Hello, >> I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys >> help. >> - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? >> - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address >> should be changed to new one? >> >> Thanks a lot. > > If you ask very general questions, you are likely to get very general > answers! > and asking this general of a question would require a response for the OP to find a QUALIFIED IT professional to do this move. If you are in IT and couldn't answer this question you really need to find another job... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:06:26 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: IP address in VMS Message-ID: <47CCCAC2.1020103@comcast.net> Michael Austin wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> a13365@yahoo.com wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> I know a little bit of VMS and I have some questions need your guys >>> help. >>> - How do I know VMS use static ip address or DHCP? >>> - If our VMS server moves to other location , current ip address >>> should be changed to new one? >>> >>> Thanks a lot. >> >> >> If you ask very general questions, you are likely to get very general >> answers! >> > > > and asking this general of a question would require a response for the > OP to find a QUALIFIED IT professional to do this move. If you are in > IT and couldn't answer this question you really need to find another job... Hey, look at it this way. . . . If he does it himself, maybe he will create a vacancy for a "QUALIFIED IT professional". I wouldn't mind getting a big paycheck again. . . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:50:54 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47cc650f$0$10323$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> While watching a documentary on the antics of a certain famous british secret agent, there was an extra portion on the DVD that described the restoration efforts to take the 1960s celluoids and restore them to modern picture quality standards. BTW, it may have been Ursula Andress' body, but they dubbed her voice with an english actress due to Ursula's accent not being right. Same with many of the movies about that secret agent. (The actor playing Goldfinger could barely speak english). They scanned each frame at 4000*3000 pixel resolution. The raw scanned footage was then stored in a very large disk far with lots of Mac servers doing the image processing to restore colour, remove scratches etc etc. What they do is then store the results on disk. Takes the disks in a special padded suitcase, stored in a vault. Then they mention that every few years they have to go back and copy the data from the older disk to newer ones to ensure data integrity. In essence, disk drives are now being used in lieu of 9track tapes, TK50s DLT, 8mm, DAT and whatever other tape media exists. And everty few years, they copy it onto a newer generation drive. So if there is to be new disk interfaces, they then switch at a time where both old and noew interfaces co-exist. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 02:04:08 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <47ca4969$0$31253$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, > JF Mezei writes: > >>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >> >>>This is one of the reasons that I'm reluctant to buy new intel based Macs. >>>Am I or am I not paying Billzebub tax because a new Mac can run Weendoze? >>>Nobody in the Apple camp has been able to clarify this. >> >>Intel based MACs use EFI as console environment. Windows does not >>support EFI booting on its 8086 versions (32 or 64 bits versions). >> >>Intel Macs do not come with any windows licenses. You can buy a >>shrinkwrapped version of Windows, and use the "bootcamp" software from >>OS-X which customises a windows install partition with drivers and EFI >>boot support. >> >>So you can safely buy an intel mac confident no money will go to >>microsoft unless you go and buy a version of windows. >> >>You cannot buy an empty intel mac and just install Windows on it. It >>needs bootcamp from OS-X. > > > So, in essence, what you are saying is the if you want to buy MAC > hardware you have to pay the MAC tax because without OS-X it won't > boot something else. Now, I wonder where they learned a trick like > that? > Good theory, but wrong. The fallacy of the excluded middle. I bet you can boot Linux or BSD or VMS-x86 on it, without paying any MAC or M$ tax (just the Intel tax.) :-) > bill > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:48:20 +0100 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Noob File-Transfer (License to .com) Question Message-ID: Tom Linden schrieb: Hi Tom, [...] > The following script is your friend if you are transferring files through > other systems like windows > ftp://kednos.com/pub/reset_backup_saveset_attributes.txt thanks a lot! I'l give it a try! Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:47:30 +0100 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Noob File-Transfer (License to .com) Question Message-ID: <3ntt95-gv2.ln1@boss.home.folkerts-net.de> JF Mezei schrieb: Hi, [...] > BTW, you could have installed decwindows on the machine and then > targetted applications to be displayed on a PC running X terminal > software. This would give you a much more workable system with DECTERM > giving you cut/paste etc for the terminal windows. thanks for the hint re. the VMS-Documentation and the DecWindows. Well, re. DecWindows I thought to check later - first wanted to get the machine up and running. However, I will consider installation (after all, running FreeBSD, Linux, AIX, Solaris, Tru64, HP-UX it's nice to X -query and get a X-Login :-)) Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:55:13 +0100 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Noob File-Transfer (License to .com) Question Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: Hi Jan_Erik, [...] > First time (before TCP/IP is licensed and running) I simply > cut-n-paste the licenses from the mail to an open emulator > windows running as console on a COM port. > > Just "$ CREATE lic.com " and paste the mail. > When the paste has finished, just to close the > file and @lic. That's is. > > NB, watch out for long/truncated/split lines ! > One might have to edit the file a little... > > Or, you can just cut-n-paste each LICENSE REGISTER command > one at a time into a $-prompt. thanks for the hint! Well., I tried that too, using minicom on a Host next to the AlphaStation via SSH from my Laptop. However, I was too greedy and wanted to paste the hole License Document into the Editor. Plus, of course, my "Experiences" with the VMS Editor are ~10 Years old and I was more than unconfident with the Editor (also was reluctant to install vi, as I wanted to learn VMS "natively" ;-)) As I didn't use any FlowControl that failed completely ;-) After Steven mentioned I only had to install the UCX-Licenses I pasted these directly into the Command-Prompt and that worked fine. Then, FTPing the Document and running it was even more simple! Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:02:38 +0100 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Noob File-Transfer (License to .com) Question Message-ID: Michael Austin schrieb: Hi Michael, [...] > > $HELP > > If you can spell HELP - things in VMS are somewhat intuitive (show for > "showing things" set for "setting things" etc.. ) thanks for the reply. However, as mentioned I tried set file/att, convert and exchange. Well, I didn' "invent" these but found them in the help. However, my Problem was not much of the Syntay, which is covered in help, but with the Semantics of File-Handling in VMS at all (which I didn't find covered there. If it is there, please send me the Topic and I'd gladly read that!). Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:09:03 +0100 From: Ralf Folkerts Subject: Re: Noob File-Transfer (License to .com) Question Message-ID: sampsal@gmail.com schrieb: Hi, [...] >> I then pop the CD into the VMS box and mount it with the /OVERRIDE=ID, /MEDIA=CDROM >> and /UNDEF=(STREAM_LF:132) options and run the .COM files. >> >> So briefly: > > Oops, hit Send by accident, so the commands to issue are similar to > the following: > (This assumes there are two files on the CD, BASE.COM and LAYER.COM, > and DKAxxx is your CD device) > > MOUNT DKAxxx: /OVERRIDE=ID /MEDIA=CDROM /UNDEF=(STREAM_LF:132) > @DKAxxx:BASE.COM > @DKAxxx:LAYER.COM wow! That's great! I will put this to a very safe place and hope to find it when I need it. I never thought that I might mount the CD-ROM specifying a special format!. I will give that a try the next time I install the System (which will be soon, as the System Admin Book arrived today and I think I first go thru one or two Installs, checking all the Options given). Thanks! Cheers, _ralf_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:50:41 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Noob File-Transfer (License to .com) Question Message-ID: Ralf Folkerts wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: > >> Just "$ CREATE lic.com " and paste the mail. > > thanks for the hint! Well., I tried that too, using minicom on a Host > next to the AlphaStation via SSH from my Laptop. However, I was too > greedy and wanted to paste the hole License Document into the Editor. Note, CREATE is not an "editor". CREATE just copies whatever is written to the terminal (from the paste) to a file. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:52:05 -0800 (PST) From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Hobbyist ? Message-ID: On Mar 2, 3:41 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > > > So, how to reach the OpenVMS Hobbyist pages nowadays? Does anybody know > > the current/real IP addresses (in case of only the BIND/DNS server is down)? > > I always go throughwww.montagar.comand from there click on the > hobbyist button. > > However, I also have a problem. > > Thereare 2 designated DNS servers for the hobbyist domain: > > ns.montagar.com and ns2.tditx.com > > First one is reacheable but responds with a negative answer. > Second one is down. > > I assume Mr Cathey is doing some work. > > Or perhaps VMS is to be totally shutdown tomorrow, including the > hobbyist programme :-) :-) :-) It's back up now. I checked earlier today (about 10AM EST) and it was still down. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:56:14 -0800 (PST) From: bdhobbs18@acm.org Subject: Rdb ODBC truncating column name? Message-ID: Charon-VAX 4000-105A VMS 7.1 Rdb 7.0-61 MS Windows Server 2003 5.2 MS SQL Server 2000 8.00.2039 Oracle Rdb ODBC 3.2 Trying to copy table structures and data from Rdb to SQL Server. My first try used rmu/extract and some dcl to result in create table statements that SQL Server could handle. Use rmu/unload to get the data, ftp the file to Windows, use bulk insert to stuff the table ... hmmm, bulk insert doesn't understand embedded null values in the data. Develop a program to convert the rmu/unload data files to something bulk insert can handle using a format file ... try interpreting the sparse information about format files several different ways ... hey Microsoft!! How about providing some decent complete working examples of loading data with embedded nulls?!?! Talk to the user again about why I'm copying data from pleasant Rdb to annoying SQL Server ... Because the current transfer process sort of works (doesn't handle nulls (HA!!!) among other problems) and there are a lot of SQL Server reports. Try a different approach. Use Rdb ODBC and data transformation service (DTS) to create the tables and copy the data. Creating the tables seems to work, copying data aborts on some tables. It seems that Rdb column names with 30 or 31 chars are truncated to 29 characters and Rdb can't find the shortened column name. The created tables in SQL Server have the shortened column names. I tried different ODBC connections and it appears that Rdb is the only one with this problem. Anyone else notice this behavior? What is truncating the column names? What do I need to do to stop the truncation? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:50:10 -0800 (PST) From: Cluster-Karl Subject: Re: Rdb ODBC truncating column name? Message-ID: <2d99790d-a40c-4f48-95f1-e97781d1465f@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> As a general advice you may try a newer version of RDB. V7.0-61 is from ca. 2001 and V7.0.9 is available (also on VAX /VMS V7.1). regards Kalle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 13:48:07 -0500 From: John Reagan Subject: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, exception handling areas. I have a bunch of previous talks I can give again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up something new for you old timers. No, I will not talk about 3-phase power. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 03 Mar 2008 20:11:25 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: <47cc5b6d$0$15195$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , John Reagan writes: >Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: > >Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you > folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, >exception handling areas. I have a bunch of previous talks I can give >again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up >something new for you old timers. I'd like to know why I had/have to suffer compiler machine listings with decimal and not hexadecimal? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:48:09 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: <47cc7212$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , John Reagan writes: >> Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: >> Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you >> folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, >> exception handling areas. I have a bunch of previous talks I can give >> again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up >> something new for you old timers. > > I'd like to know why I had/have to suffer compiler machine listings with > decimal and not hexadecimal? Is that a suggestion for topic for presentation or a suggestion for improvement in the software ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:47:14 -0500 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , John Reagan writes: > >>Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: >> >>Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you >> folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, >>exception handling areas. I have a bunch of previous talks I can give >>again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up >>something new for you old timers. > > > I'd like to know why I had/have to suffer compiler machine listings with > decimal and not hexadecimal? > Would you like that in a 3-hour block or a "hands-on" session? Certain areas of Georgia and Alabama not withstanding, most of us have 10 fingers, not 16 fingers. [I'm from the south, I can make the joke. My great-grandparents were 1st cousins.] Plus, it has been that way since VAX days although the format of the VAX instructions let you see the decimal number in the symbolic area on the right and the hex number in the cybercrud on the left-hand side. Alpha made it a little more interesting with literals buried inside the 32-bit instruction but they tended to be on reasonable boundaries so you can spot them. Itanium made it really hard since some instructions have 9-bit literals, some 14-bit, some 22-bit, etc. Most all of them sign-extend. If the compiler generated add r3 = 3FFF, r3 could you tell that we're subtracting 1 from R3 by adding negative 1? Yes, it is essentially impossible to spot them from the hex-ification of the slot: 0119F83FE0C0 0010 adds r3 = -1, r3 Would it be helpful to see 0119F83FE0C0 0010 adds r3 = -1, r3 // 3FFF or 0119F83FE0C0 0010 adds r3 = -1, r3 // r3 = 3FFF, r3 GEM already does some 'commentary' to help show underlying register numbers for symbolic variable names, etc. but then you have to deal with line wrap even with 132-column listings. -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 07:28:30 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: Hi John, > Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you > folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, > exception handling areas. Bit anachronistic all this compiler/linker stuff is it not? I'm mean with JDBC, Perl, CGI, PHP, Python et al, surely your traditional VMS 3GL development base has been consigned to the dust-bin of history? Performance? Security? - Pffft! On a constructive note, a complete SDLC for a "Hello world" COBOL program with VMS's currently *recommended* development tool-set couldn't hurt; a sort of "Moving forward with VMS and 3GLs". I'd like to see how the Distributed Netbeans hooks up and compiles the COBOL and tells WSIT to generate the WSDL which in turn generates the Java and then links them all together so that your IDE Project has that lovely "Run As - Monstrosity" tag. Then a VMS Debugger session on the result would be a useful educational exercise! Don't forget that the client-base is a bit jaded and gun-shy after Rally, DECForms, DECAdmire, ACMS/Desktop, DCE/RPC, ONC/RPC, COM, BridgeWorks, TP Web Connector. They are desperate for something to bring them out of 15 years of the development doldrums and drag them into the modern web-facing world. Please, please, please - let someone pin you down and *tell us exactly* what it is you'd have the VMS customers do for application development, how much you've spent on it, and how long before you do another complete 180 to keep (slightly less than) ahead of the curve. Personally, I'd like to know how much VMS Middle Management is investing in Legacy 3GLs in the first place, when compared to the "Porting Java and C applications" camp. Worth a couple of graphs perhaps? (Or Flex-Charts front-ending a Pascal program? Nah, who'd want that?) Cheers Richard Maher "John Reagan" wrote in message news:fqhhcc$a2t$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: > > Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you > folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, > exception handling areas. I have a bunch of previous talks I can give > again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up > something new for you old timers. > > No, I will not talk about 3-phase power. > > -- > John Reagan > OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL > Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 04 Mar 2008 00:59:35 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: <47cc9ef7$0$5604$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , John Reagan writes: >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article , John Reagan writes: >> >>>Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: >>> >>>Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you >>> folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, >>>exception handling areas. I have a bunch of previous talks I can give >>>again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up >>>something new for you old timers. >> >> >> I'd like to know why I had/have to suffer compiler machine listings with >> decimal and not hexadecimal? >> > >Would you like that in a 3-hour block or a "hands-on" session? How about a 3 hour "hands-on" session in the tap room! :) >Certain areas of Georgia and Alabama not withstanding, most of us have >10 fingers, not 16 fingers. [I'm from the south, I can make the joke. My >great-grandparents were 1st cousins.] > >Plus, it has been that way since VAX days although the format of the VAX >instructions let you see the decimal number in the symbolic area on the >right and the hex number in the cybercrud on the left-hand side. > >Alpha made it a little more interesting with literals buried inside the >32-bit instruction but they tended to be on reasonable boundaries so you >can spot them. > >Itanium made it really hard since some instructions have 9-bit literals, >some 14-bit, some 22-bit, etc. Most all of them sign-extend. If the >compiler generated > > add r3 = 3FFF, r3 > >could you tell that we're subtracting 1 from R3 by adding negative 1? > >Yes, it is essentially impossible to spot them from the hex-ification of >the slot: > >0119F83FE0C0 0010 adds r3 = -1, r3 > > > >Would it be helpful to see > >0119F83FE0C0 0010 adds r3 = -1, r3 // 3FFF > >or > >0119F83FE0C0 0010 adds r3 = -1, r3 // r3 = 3FFF, r3 Yeah, either of those would be grand. I prefer to see the hex. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 19:49:39 -0600 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: <47CCAAB3.EA2D39BD@spam.comcast.net> John Reagan wrote: > > Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: > > Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. What do you > folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, > exception handling areas. I have a bunch of previous talks I can give > again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up > something new for you old timers. Well, this is not langauge/compiler specific, but... I should think that any sites who have migrated from large clusters of Alpha GS1280s to I64 Superdomes running any application using Oracle for a "large" database (4TB or more) and an astronomical transaction rate at peak times would be a prime candidate for a case study / customer experience. Ideally, we'd be looking for anything that can thrown in Cerner's face so we can say, "They did it, why the (Censored) can't Cerner?" David J Dachtera (formerly dba) DJE Systems ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 19:48:47 -0800 (PST) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: Suggestions for Bootcamp talks? Message-ID: <3d194351-b770-4991-94f7-018c8b1258a4@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 1:48=A0pm, John Reagan wrote: > Greetings Bootcamp Attendees and Potential Attendees: > > Sue has asked me for presentations for this years Bootcamp. =A0What do you= > =A0 folks want to hear about in the compiler, linker, Calling Standard, > exception handling areas. =A0I have a bunch of previous talks I can give > again for the large number of first time attendees or I can whip up > something new for you old timers. Much the same question here... Please do send Email with positive or negative suggestion. Last year I had a new 'RMS global buffers' session with good stuff (if I dare say) which was poorly attended. And I had a funky, not so well executed, 'Macro, DCL and Perl 'languages' session which was well attended and for which I received good feedback. Any special requests? Any veto's? New: The accidental RMS indexed file owner ... I think it is time to for an RMS performance 'basics' session again: SET RMS options, Global buffers, Common problems. New: Oracle for OpenVMS folks who do not really want to go there. (Not really enough time to finish that) rerun: Perl for DCL bigots? rerun: Index file internals? New: Hot file monitoring using XFC data New: OpenVMS T4 practical usages rerun: DCL Magic/real programming in DCL. New-but-old: On-disk file structures. Standard: RMS presenations like 'fdl magic, buffers & locks, duplicate ey chain war stories, ... New: How can we teach performance testing? Thanks for any and all feedback: hein van den heuvel at gmail dot com Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:02:00 -0800 (PST) From: "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" Subject: Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Message-ID: <99d83675-214b-452c-9a31-c7e96428feab@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>, > Uusim=E4ki writes: > > > > > In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters. > > DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus > > I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper > somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves= > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre- date LVD SCSI design. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 2008 20:07:21 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Message-ID: <63343pF24gi9iU4@mid.individual.net> In article <99d83675-214b-452c-9a31-c7e96428feab@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes: > On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>, >> Uusimäki writes: >> >> >> >> > In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters. >> > DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus >> >> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper >> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-) > > You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre- > date LVD SCSI design. Ok, that's good news, kinda. I just looked and what I have are actually DWZZB's. Same thing apply? Why you ask? I actually have a HVD SCSI module for one of my PDP-11's but have been unable to actually find any HVD disks (well, at least that I couls afford!) Be nice if these could be used to hook up a BA3xx box to the PDP-11. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:32:40 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Message-ID: <47CC6068.6010304@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>, > Uusimäki writes: > >>In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters. >>DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus > > > > I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper > somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-) > > bill > They should not be needed with LVD. LVD will ususually interoperate with single ended. If you connect HVD to single ended you get smoke! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 16:04:27 -0500 From: Ben Myers Subject: Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Message-ID: Careful with "interoperate" there. LVD and SE signals do not quite coexist well on the same bus. A SCSI host adapter may handle either one or the other, and maybe both (jumper settable) but not both at the same time. The purpose of the SE jumper on an LVD drive is to force the drive into SE operation, because there is no guarantee that the SCSI startup negotiation protocol will end up with SE operation. This is especially true with the older and less flexible hardware like that which is being discussed here. A great many modern SCSI drives have SE jumpers, even the SCA-80 ones... Ben Myers On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:32:40 -0500, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: >Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>, >> Uusimäki writes: >> >>>In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters. >>>DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus >> >> >> >> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper >> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-) >> >> bill >> > >They should not be needed with LVD. LVD will ususually interoperate >with single ended. If you connect HVD to single ended you get smoke! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:15:57 +0200 From: =?windows-1252?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Message-ID: <47cc6a5b$0$14996$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <99d83675-214b-452c-9a31-c7e96428feab@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes: >> On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>, >>> Uusimäki writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>> In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters. >>>> DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus >>> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper >>> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-) >> You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre- >> date LVD SCSI design. > > Ok, that's good news, kinda. I just looked and what I have are actually > DWZZB's. Same thing apply? Why you ask? I actually have a HVD SCSI > module for one of my PDP-11's but have been unable to actually find any > HVD disks (well, at least that I couls afford!) Be nice if these could > be used to hook up a BA3xx box to the PDP-11. > > bill > That's exactly what you can do with them. Put the DWZZ* into the BA35* and some disks into the box, plug the cable to the HVD SCSI adapter and there you go. I recommend you to read through the DWZZ* Users Guide (EK–DWZZX–UG). You find it on vt100.net. Regards, Kari ------------------------------ Date: 3 Mar 2008 21:58:06 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Wide drives on VAXstation 4000-60 Message-ID: <633ajeF25vl7cU1@mid.individual.net> In article <47cc6a5b$0$14996$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>, =?windows-1252?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <99d83675-214b-452c-9a31-c7e96428feab@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, >> "johnhreinhardt@yahoo.com" writes: >>> On Mar 3, 1:32 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >>>> In article <47cc42ec$0$15002$9b536...@news.fv.fi>, >>>> Uusimäki writes: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> In fact, the DWZZ*'s are Differential to Sigle-ended converters. >>>>> DWZZA converts a 8-bit ("narrow") SE bus to a Differential bus >>>> I would assume they are LVD. There isn't by any chance a jumper >>>> somewhere on these that would make them work with HVD, is there? :-) >>> You assume wrongly. They convert HVD to SE and vice-versa. They pre- >>> date LVD SCSI design. >> >> Ok, that's good news, kinda. I just looked and what I have are actually >> DWZZB's. Same thing apply? Why you ask? I actually have a HVD SCSI >> module for one of my PDP-11's but have been unable to actually find any >> HVD disks (well, at least that I couls afford!) Be nice if these could >> be used to hook up a BA3xx box to the PDP-11. >> >> bill >> > > That's exactly what you can do with them. Put the DWZZ* into the BA35* > and some disks into the box, plug the cable to the HVD SCSI adapter and > there you go. > I recommend you to read through the DWZZ* Users Guide (EK–DWZZX–UG). > You find it on vt100.net. My DWZZB's don't fit into a BA3xx they are little standalone boxes. Even have little feet. :-) I will have to come upw with some cables and give it a try. Hopefully, no smoke. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.127 ************************