INFO-VAX Fri, 14 Mar 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 148 Contents: Re: CAUTION: post is ON TOPIC Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Re: Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Re: Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Re: Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? MediaWiki on VMS Microvax II + 9-Track Old DEC gear is in need of saving Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Re: Shadow set problem finally solved So you think God and the devil are not real? Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Re: Time and TDF after DST advance Re: Time and TDF after DST advance Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Mar 2008 08:49:43 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: CAUTION: post is ON TOPIC Message-ID: In article <47d9d813$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > > I believe that linking newly compiled code with code compiled a > long time ago is fully supported. > > And based on that they can't change anything in the calling convention. > > The only changes I can imagine is the VAX->Alpha->I64 ones. Your 6.1 > manual obviously does not cover the last. That's OK, I don't have one of those. I'll just be writing the VAX specific and Alpha specific code for now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 23:56:46 -0700 (PDT) From: andrewr04@gmail.com Subject: Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Message-ID: Hi, We are trying to migrate an Oracle application from OpenVMS Alpha to OpenVMS Integrity. With Oracle on OpenVMS Integrity the real numbers are stored in IEEE format. All the application code is compiled using G_Float, and we do not want to change this as it will impact on communications with the PLCs. Is it possible to convert IEEE format numbers to G_Float format numbers easily? Thanks Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:15:03 +0100 From: joukj Subject: Re: Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Message-ID: <47DA25F7.80602@hrem.nano.tudelft.nl> andrewr04@gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > > We are trying to migrate an Oracle application from OpenVMS Alpha to > OpenVMS Integrity. > > With Oracle on OpenVMS Integrity the real numbers are stored in IEEE > format. > > All the application code is compiled using G_Float, and we do not want > to change this as it will impact on communications with the PLCs. > > Is it possible to convert IEEE format numbers to G_Float format > numbers easily? > > Thanks > Andrew take a look at the cvt$convert_float functions Jouk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:52:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Volker Halle Subject: Re: Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Message-ID: <842cfbca-da0d-4e82-bcea-ee53ba98a082@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com> Andrew, you've received an identical answer for the identical question over in ITRC: http://forums11.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1212837 Volker. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 2008 09:36:48 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Converting Real numbers with IEEE format to G_Float format Message-ID: In article , andrewr04@gmail.com writes: > Hi, > > We are trying to migrate an Oracle application from OpenVMS Alpha to > OpenVMS Integrity. > > With Oracle on OpenVMS Integrity the real numbers are stored in IEEE > format. > > All the application code is compiled using G_Float, and we do not want > to change this as it will impact on communications with the PLCs. > > Is it possible to convert IEEE format numbers to G_Float format > numbers easily? There are routines in LIB$ to do these sorts of conversions. Fortran I/O can do them on the fly, you just have to specify what format a file's data is in in the OPEN statement. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 08:43:07 -0000 From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? Message-ID: <13tkel13l2e4j2b@corp.supernews.com> "caliban" wrote in message news:fd3d816b-9ef9-4f71-9bfe-19196cebf0d0@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > VMS 7.3-2. Have a PCI-TO-VME interface. Is there some signal on the > PCI bus that this card could be generating that will cause the > computer to reboot, without dump, or OPERATOR.LOG entry? Happens every > couple of hours. > > Looking for a mechanism that will explain the reboots. Is there a PCI > reset signal, or something else, that would cause this? Plugged PCI- > TO-VME interface into a spare computer and it reboots too, so it's not > a problem with the computer itself. A PCI to VME adapter is likely capable of screwing up the PCI bus on its host computer. Many Alphas rely on PCI to do IO-type including things like log errors or take crash dumps. If an IO bus is non-functioning, this will normally cause console messages, errors to be logged and eventually a crash may well occur (depending on which bus, what devices, etc). But if the hung bus is the PCI, the messages, errors and the crash dump may not go anywhere (due to them needing the hung PCI), which leaves you in the situation you find yourself, somewhat out of luck. So, if you are fortunate enough to have a choice of PCI buses on the host, put the adapter in one where it can do least damage to other I/O operations (if that makes any sense). Other than that, usual analytical troubleshooting stuff applies. Has anything changed since this used to work? Does anything change if you take all VME cards out and put them back in one by one (or take them out one by one, etc)? What kind of thing happens every two hours in your setup? Etc. Want to say any more about the host box and the PCI->VME adapter (eg what models)? (This information vaguely recalled from the days when CSS used to sell AlphaServer 2100s with PCI-VME adapters). Good luck John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:50:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Volker Halle Subject: Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? Message-ID: A HALT instruction in kernel mode can cause a reboot without a dump/ errlog entry, if AUTO_ACTION is set to BOOT instead of RESTART ! Make sure you record the output from the serial console (OPA0) at the time of the failure, Volker. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 2008 08:53:01 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? Message-ID: In article , caliban writes: > VMS 7.3-2. Have a PCI-TO-VME interface. Is there some signal on the > PCI bus that this card could be generating that will cause the > computer to reboot, without dump, or OPERATOR.LOG entry? Happens every > couple of hours. Is it causing a crash (FATAL BUGCHECK) and reboot, or power hit and reboot? Your description sounds more like the latter, which could be bad hardware, like a dirty fan switch, bad power supply, or failing temperature sensor. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:23:02 +0100 From: "Klaus Zivohlava" Subject: Re: DS10 Alphaserver keeps rebooting. What can cause this? Message-ID: <1205508183.915752@proxy.dienste.wien.at> maybe somewhere there is a hanging reset-knob? "caliban" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:fd3d816b-9ef9-4f71-9bfe-19196cebf0d0@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > VMS 7.3-2. Have a PCI-TO-VME interface. Is there some signal on the > PCI bus that this card could be generating that will cause the > computer to reboot, without dump, or OPERATOR.LOG entry? Happens every > couple of hours. > > Looking for a mechanism that will explain the reboots. Is there a PCI > reset signal, or something else, that would cause this? Plugged PCI- > TO-VME interface into a spare computer and it reboots too, so it's not > a problem with the computer itself. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:31:24 -0700 (PDT) From: issinoho Subject: MediaWiki on VMS Message-ID: <6dd7b0a9-93c5-4e93-b1dc-15a0315b0156@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com> I managed to get MediaWiki running on OpenVMS but it wasn't without problems. I know there was at least one enquiry about this in the past so I have documented the process here, http://vamp.issinoho.com/viewforum.php?f=19 Hope this helps a few people. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:11:43 -0500 From: Chuck Forsberg Subject: Microvax II + 9-Track Message-ID: <__idnYcN3PaCikfanZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d@giganews.com> System has a DLT tape in addition to the 9-track. Also ethernet and two hard drives. System has an old VMS on it and was working last time it was powered up. The clock battery is dead so you must enter the date when powering up. Free to a good home. You Haul. Portland Oregon Satisfaction guaranteed or full purchase refunded (S&H not included). caf@omen.com -- /u/caf/signature.txt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:45:25 +1100 From: Phaeton Subject: Old DEC gear is in need of saving Message-ID: <47da3b28$1_4@news.chariot.net.au> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/14/2189966.htm The Australian Computer Museum Society is in trouble. It has some very old computer stuff, including DEC gear. It is a shame if those ( or any other relic ) will be thrown out... Cheers, csaba ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| http://csabaharangozo.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]: What has a front has a back. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:47:48 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Message-ID: In article , AEF writes: >On Mar 13, 11:45 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> On Mar 13, 10:58 am, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP >> >> >> >> (Simon Clubley) wrote: >> > In article , AEF writes: >> >> > > On Mar 9, 9:30 pm, AEF wrote: >> >> > >> Bob, I'm taking this off-line. I just fired off an email to you from >> > >> my spamsink2001 address. >> >> > >> AEF >> >> > > Well, Bob. I haven't heard from you. What was that you were saying >> > > about "liberals" not willing to answer your points (or something like >> > > that)? >> >> > I would advise you not to waste your time trying to contact Bob privately. >> >> > I've tried communicating with him in email (because COV is not the right >> > place to have these conversations) and it either bounces or is ignored. >> >> > I get the distinct impression that he's not interested in spending time >> > talking privately, but just wants to spout his evangelical rants in a >> > public forum in order to reach as many people as possible and has total >> > disregard for whether that forum's the right place to have such a >> > discussion. >> >> > I'm also not impressed that he uses anonymous email addresses or email >> > addresses that bounce in order to post those rants; if these evangelical >> > viewpoints are what he truly believes, then why doesn't he sign his >> > name to them ? >> >> > Bob, once again, you are free to followup in email if you wish, but you >> > will have to despam the email address below. >> >> > Simon. >> >> > -- >> > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP >> > Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world >> >> I do not follow up thru emails ... whatever you or I have >> to be said can be said right here in public ... this is a >> forum and that is what it is for ... discussion ... > >Fine. Since I actually bothered to type up a response, I'll post it >here. > >On Mar 9, 5:20 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> > > On Mar 7, 1:15 pm, AEF >wrote: >> >> > How do you know there even is "God"? >> . . snip . >> they have reversed the gene pool and found we all >came from >> the same mother and father ... Adam and Eve ring a >bell? > I answered this almost exactly a year ago see http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/e2124447a02013e4 Mitochondrial Eve was not the only woman alive at that time and Y chromosonal Adam was not the only man alive when he lived. Further they did NOT live at the same time !!! Mitochondrial Eve is estimated to have lived 140,000 years ago whereas Y chromosonal Adam is estimated to have lived 60,000 years ago. They have nothing whatsoever to do with Adam and Eve as depicted in Genesis. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Hardly proof. Other scenarios are consistent with >this. In fact, there's a problem already on page 1 of >the Bible. How could the water be above the firmamanet >yet the firmament contains the "lights"? Even the >ancients could see the clouds cover the "lights". How >could there be such a big mistake already on page 1? >In fact, Genesis is similar to Babylonian mythology -- >well at least some of it. The Israelites were exiled >in Babylonia. Put 2 and 2 together. > >> >> >> >> > How do you know? >> >> because He said so! > >Did you hear Him? Or, how do you know? if you want to >give worthless answers. > >> >> >> >> > > YOU decide where >> >> > > you will spend eternity ... >> >> > It's called the grave. I don't believe there is an >afterlife. Consider >> > an infant, or fetus, or embryo. What are they like >in the afterlife? >> > Is an embryo still an embryo? If not, how does it >work? How does an >> > embryo repent, for example? There's more, but I'll >start with this. >> >> every person has a soul, adult child baby or embryo >.... > >Yeah, people would like to believe that, but I think >the mind is simply a manifestation of the brain. Look >how much various physical and chemical processes >affect the mind: alocohol, other drugs, injuries, >lobotomy. > >> >> the age of accountability is 12 ... you are not held >accountable >> for your sins until that time ... that is what bar >mitzvahs >> celebrate ... > >Bar Mitzvahs occur at age 13, not 12. > >> it is important as parents to bring up your children >teaching them >> about God or they end up like you lost ... you are >responsible >> for your children and if you bring them up wrong you >are condeming >> your own children to hell and you are held >accountable ... >> everyone that dies will be raised again and given a >new body ... >> what you look like is unknown, but it will live >forever ... the only >> question is where ... young babies that die >prematurely either >> naturally or by abortion will be given a body ... >weither it is a >> childs one or adult one is unknown, but they will >have one and since >> they died before the age of accoutability they will >not be sent to the >> lake of fire ... but they also will be tempted by >the devil just like >> everyone else was, because soon Christ will come >back and reign >> for 1000 years, then the devil will be released one >final time amongst >> man for one final chance to lure man to the lake of >fire with him for >> eternity ... > >Well, if all these things are true, then why is it >such a terrible thing when people are killed? When >children are killed? And abortion? If aborted fetuses >get a straight ticket to heaven, then what's the >problem with abortion? > >I once saw some video interviews of various people, >including atheists. One of them said -- I can't >remember who -- that most people who say they believe >in God certainly don't act like it. I think he's >right. People deep down know that a murder is a >terrible thing, even though they say that person has >gone to heaven. A former co-worker complained that I >was eating a bagel during Passover. I asked him why he >doesn't observe the Sabbath, something far more >important than keeping kosher. He said he has to have >a job. So he puts his job over what he claims are >orders from the Creator. This is just one more >example. There are many others. > >This whole heaven and hell bit seems to me just a >made-up thing to try to get people to behave. Genesis >looks like an effort to explain why the world is the >way it is. The Devil is the explanation for evil, or a >personification of it. > >Anyway, enough for now. > >AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:41:24 +0100 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Message-ID: Volker Halle wrote: > the maximum volume size for an individual OpenVMS disk volume is 1 TB > (since V6.0). Short of finding a reference in the documentation now, looks like the maximum would be set by the biggest positive signed 32bit integer. I see actually a 1.5 TB NFS mounted volume on my system (VMS 7.3-1) Total blocks 2922891920 If the limit is 1 TB, is there a danger in possible corruption, if a LBN > 1 TB will be read/written in such a volume ? -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:46:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Volker Halle Subject: Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Message-ID: Joseph, http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/vmsfaq.txt 9.5 What is the largest disk volume size OpenVMS can access? One Terabyte (TB; 2**31 blocks of 2**9 bytes; 0x07FFFFFFF blocks). 255 volumes in a volume set. The largest contiguous allocation possible for any particular file is 0x03FFFFFFF blocks. Prior to the release of V6.0, the OpenVMS file system was limited to disk volumes of 8.38 GB (2**24 blocks, 16777216 blocks) or less. Volker. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:24:50 +0100 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Message-ID: Volker Halle wrote: > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/faq/vmsfaq.txt > > 9.5 What is the largest disk volume size OpenVMS can > access? > > One Terabyte (TB; 2**31 blocks of 2**9 bytes; > 0x07FFFFFFF blocks). 255 volumes in a volume set. > The largest contiguous allocation possible for any > particular file is 0x03FFFFFFF blocks. > Well I never was reading it carefully, but now see there is either an error or a contradiction: 2**31 blocks would be 2 TB not 1 (0xFFFFFFFF, 0x7FFFFFFF is 2**31 - 1, i.e. 1 TB). So my 1.5 TB NFS volume can be handled, if I'm right, but is in danger of corruption if the FAQ is right ? -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:37:27 +0100 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Message-ID: Joseph Huber wrote: > Well I never was reading it carefully, but now see there is either an > error or a contradiction: > > 2**31 blocks would be 2 TB not 1 (0xFFFFFFFF, 0x7FFFFFFF is 2**31 - 1, > i.e. 1 TB). > > So my 1.5 TB NFS volume can be handled, if I'm right, but is in danger > of corruption if the FAQ is right ? Aaahrg wrong again, 2**31 of course is 0x80000000, which again is 1TB, but the question remains: is the limit defined by positive signed 32bit numbers (0x7FFFFFFF = 2**31-1) or unsigned 32bit (0xFFFFFFFF, i.e. 2 TB). The fact that SHOW DEV and f$getdvi can handle a total of 2922891920 blocks (0xae37ca90) indicates to me 0xFFFFFFFF is the limit, not 7FFFFFFF. -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:42:56 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Message-ID: <47da5755$0$31276$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Joseph Huber wrote: > The fact that SHOW DEV and f$getdvi can handle a total of 2922891920 > blocks (0xae37ca90) indicates to me 0xFFFFFFFF is the limit, not 7FFFFFFF. One would need to know what the limits are in the NFS software for Multinet, it may be the one that truncates a lot of bits and tells VMS the disk is much smaller than it really is. HAs the OP ruled ou the NFS software at the server end providing incorrect volume size ? If so, one could blame the Multinet NFS client side. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:08:05 +0100 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: Q: Maximum volume size for NFS disk (MN 4.4A)? Message-ID: Well concluding from my experience: The limit of 1 TB comes from using signed 32 numbers in block handling by device drivers/ACPs/XQP. So 1 TB is the limit for volumes served by VMS. System services like $getdvi seem to treat the values as unsigned 32 bit integers. For a volume of less than 2 TB $getdvi gets the correct number of total and free blocks. DCL seemingly is not consistent in handling the numbers: SHOW DEVICE/FULL is correctly showing the total number of blocks, but the free blocks as "unknown" (while F$GETDVI("DNFS6:","FREEBLOCKS") returns the correct number). So in practice 2 TB seems to be the limit for NFS client mounted volumes, but one can't rely on DCL to show things correctly. When I got this 1.5 TB NFS volume some time ago, I changed my procedure for calculating/showing available disk-space to convert the number from f$getdvi into hexadecimal form, and pass this to a utility calculating in 64 integer to convert to megabytes passed backk to DCL. -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:53:49 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Message-ID: <0d6a425e-516b-4fa5-b323-19374886b7b6@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 13, 7:04=A0pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > tadamsmar writes: > >On Mar 13, 8:33=3DA0am, tadamsmar wrote: > >> It worked! =3DA0I finally got a clean ANAL/DISK/SHADOW! > >Opps, not quite there. =A0It ran clean on the single disk. =A0But when I > >add the other disk to the shadowset it reported the 4 blocks with > >errors. =A0VMS does not want to give these up without a fight. > > Did you get those errors from $ ANAL/DISK/SHADOW or from when the shadow > copy was taking place? =46rom the shadow copy. > If the latter, those bad blocks may already be > gone. > > Due to speed/synchronization issues, a shadow copy doesn't blindly copy > blocks from the source to the target. =A0It reads from the target and > compares them to the source. =A0If different, the source is copied to the > target. > > Now, if the target had 4 blocks marked as bad, they would have been > reported during the read. =A0However, they would have been immediately > overwritten, and by now would be gone. I guess you are saying that I got 4 read errors on the reads, but they would have been overwritten, so that I would have never seen them again. Too late to confirm that idea on the disk that I have installed since I erased it. But I will probably reinstall the old disks and send the new ones back to the vendor. When I put the old disk in, it will be carrying 4 "bad" blocks, so I could confirm your idea. > I forgot about that. =A0If they're > reported by $ ANAL/DISK/SHADOW, I guess I don't know. | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 06:01:31 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Message-ID: <0dfd9f06-4a8b-42f6-ab8e-32446e900458@n75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Mar 13, 3:20=A0pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <444fde84-b0dc-4ad9-b79f-5e999a9a3...@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.= com>, tadamsmar writes: > > > > > > >On Mar 13, 2:04=3DA0pm, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article <1f5f98b1-5433-4687-953d-c3ac4a3e0...@m44g2000hsc.googlegrou= ps.=3D > >com>, tadamsmar writes: > > >> >On Mar 13, 12:07=3D3DA0pm, VAXman- =3D...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> >> In article >ps.=3D3D > >> >com>, tadamsmar writes: > > >> >> >{...snip...} > > >> >> >Opps, not quite there. =3D3DA0It ran clean on the single disk. =3D3= DA0But =3D > >when I > >> >> >add the other disk to the shadowset it reported the 4 blocks with > >> >> >errors. =3D3DA0VMS does not want to give these up without a fight. > > >> >> >I'm am going to init/erase that disk. > > >> >> What happens if you shadow and mount an init'd disk (i.e. nothing on= it=3D > >)? > > >> Aren't you init'ing and then restoring your backup to it? > > >I did an init/erase, and restored the backup. =A0But for the second > >disk, I did a init/erase and just put into the shadow set. =A0 I tried > >putting the second disk in the shadowset without an init/erase but it > >still had the 4 bad blocks, so I did and init/erase on it. > > >I never tried a plain old init. > > >I still don't quite understand what you are asking, or why. > > Just trying to understand where your "bad" blocks come from. =A0 Well, I got some errors logged the very first time I did a shadow copy on one of 2 refurb DS10s that I bought last August. I did not have time to look into it then and I figured shadowing was protecting me. But I got on it recently since I did not want to let my 1 year warranty expire before I tackled it. I figured I have been copying those errors around ever since. I now think there were some bad blocks on one disk. But I will probably go back and confirm that. I have the 3 disks I swapped out stacked beside me. I am going to swap them all back in and confirm if any have some real bad blocks. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)= COM > > =A0 "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:01:00 -0700 (PDT) From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: So you think God and the devil are not real? Message-ID: <28d08e35-0dce-4f47-a06f-9dc7ba6adf79@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Message-ID: On Mar 14, 10:01 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835 Well, this looks like a good chance win James Randi's million dollar challenge! See http://www.randi.org/ for details. And after that, kindly go away. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:42:16 -0400 From: "Carl Friedberg" Subject: Re: Time and TDF after DST advance Message-ID: <890539d90803140842o689bfe94md663e7f1b0ca72ad@mail.gmail.com> Hi Norm, warning, long post Couple of questions (feel free to take this off line carl at comets dot com) (1) What is the value of the sysgen paramater AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV? (2) Please show us the contents of multinet:ntp.conf [curious if you have a SET_VMS_LOGICALS line?] Here is my take. I've been watching this for 5 years, and this is the first time everything worked right. I am using both Multinet NTP and VMS 8.3. All Multinet patches have been applied. The main decision is how to manage the time change. (A) completely automatic. In this mode, you tell VMS to do nothing, and let NTP manage the change. NTP will make the change shortly after the appointed hour (2AM Sunday) (B) completely automatic (no NTP). In this mode, you let VMS manage the time change; the time will change at exactly the appointed hour (2:00:00.00 Sunday).. (C) manual. In this mode, you will change the time when it is safe to do so (e.g., batch queues won't go crazy, or some other consideration). For the sake of your sanity, do NOT jump the time before the appointed hour. Trust me. If you are running NTP, you must stop it well before the appointed hour; and wait a long time after before you restart it. You MUST use SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP to jump the time. Before you go another step, do this: @sys$manager:utc$time_setup SHOW More explanation follows, then my way to do it. You may not realize it (I didn't), but much of DTSS has been brought into the core of VMS 8.3; that is what is runing behind the scenes (feel free to correct me if this is mis-information) when VMS does automatic daylight savings time changes, which is controlled by the value of AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV If AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=1, then VMS will change the time automatically and reset the value of the timezone logicals: "SYS$TIMEZONE_DAYLIGHT_SAVING" = "1" "SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL" = "-14400" "SYS$TIMEZONE_NAME" = "EDT" this shouldn't change: "SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE" = "EST5EDT4,M3.2.0/02,M11.1.0/02" If AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=0, then VMS will let you do the change manually. To do that, you must use the UTC$TIME_SETUP procedure. Again, do not run this to jump the time BEFORE the appointed hour. If you are running NTP through the time-change, and SET_VMS_LOGICALS is in effect: set_vms_logicals server 2.1.3.4 disable opcom then you MUST have AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV = 0. If you do NOT want ntp to be fighting you while the time changes, Process recommends stopping the NTP service before the change (multinet netcontrol ntp shutdown) and then re-starting it well after the time change (I waited until Monday at 6am: $ multinet netcontrol ntp start [in a cluster, do these on each node] On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 5:44 PM, wrote: So, for method [A] -- let NTP mange the process: -- AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=0 (not dynamic, run Autogen reboot) -- SET_VMS_LOGICALS is in your multinet:ntp.conf this works exactly as expected (thank you, Multinet/Process). for method [B] (no NTP, automatic) -- AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=1 [I have not tested this, but I'm sure that works as expected] for method [C] (ntp is running on your system, but you have to determine when to jump the time: -- @sys$manager:utc$time_setup SHOW to see what VMS expects; -- multinet ntp netcontrol shutdown well before the time change; --@sys$manager:utc$time_setup to change the time, but wait until after the time change appointed hour (after 2AM Sunday). If you don't, some of the logical names will not be changed, and I don't know what other problems you will have. Most of the worst issues I have had came about because I ran this too soon. -- define MULTINET_TIMEZONE "EDT" /sys/exec by hand wait until Monday morning early to renable NTP: -- multinet ntp netcontrol start Aside from the annoying behavior of the queue manager (which, IMNSHO, should not screw this up) of releasing everything scheduled to run between 2AM and 3AM, DST changes now seem to be as good as they could be without doing the sensible thing that Unix does, and keep the machine time with UTC, and the display times based on localtime. Carl Friedberg > > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote on 03/11/2008 > 07:25:24 PM: > > > > > In article <47D6E52B.2070809@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > writes: > > > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: > > >> > > >> I do not run DTSS. I do run Multinet. The time changes > > >> via NTP. The multinet _timezone logical changes without > > >> any action from me. > > >> > > > > > > NTP has nothing to do with it or, a least, it shouldn't have anything > to > > > do with it! As far as NTP is concerned, timezones are a figment of > your > > > imagination. > > > > That is true on UNIX, but not on VMS. Multinet NTP does alter the > > system time to deal with the fact that VMS keeps the clock in local > > time. > > > That still leaves the fact that the Queue Manager seems to know it's EDT, > but > the Show time does not. > > Trying to submit this for fall-back is even dicier, since there are > two 2:00 a.m.s. Setting the differential at 2:00 a.m. EDT > to EST will show *what* during the next hour for show time? > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:57:15 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Time and TDF after DST advance Message-ID: In article <890539d90803140842o689bfe94md663e7f1b0ca72ad@mail.gmail.com>, "Carl Friedberg" writes: >Hi Norm, > >warning, long post > >Couple of questions (feel free to take this off line carl at comets dot com) > >(1) What is the value of the sysgen paramater AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV? > >(2) Please show us the contents of multinet:ntp.conf > >[curious if you have a SET_VMS_LOGICALS line?] > >Here is my take. I've been watching this for 5 years, and >this is the first time everything worked right. I am using >both Multinet NTP and VMS 8.3. All Multinet patches >have been applied. > >The main decision is how to manage the time change. > >(A) completely automatic. In this mode, you tell VMS >to do nothing, and let NTP manage the change. >NTP will make the change shortly after the appointed >hour (2AM Sunday) > >(B) completely automatic (no NTP). In this mode, >you let VMS manage the time change; the time >will change at exactly the appointed hour (2:00:00.00 >Sunday).. > >(C) manual. In this mode, you will change the time >when it is safe to do so (e.g., batch queues won't >go crazy, or some other consideration). For the >sake of your sanity, do NOT jump the time before >the appointed hour. Trust me. > >If you are running NTP, you must stop it well >before the appointed hour; and wait a long time >after before you restart it. > >You MUST use SYS$MANAGER:UTC$TIME_SETUP >to jump the time. Before you go another step, do this: > >@sys$manager:utc$time_setup SHOW > >More explanation follows, then my way to do it. > >You may not realize it (I didn't), but much of DTSS has been >brought into the core of VMS 8.3; that is what is runing behind >the scenes (feel free to correct me if this is mis-information) >when VMS does automatic daylight savings time changes, >which is controlled by the value of AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV > If you are using NTP and Decnet Phase V then you need to disable DTSS by defining the logical NET$DISABLE_DTSS ie DEFINE/SYSTEM NET$DISABLE_DTSS 1 in SYLOGICALS.COM so that they don't fight each other over changing the clock. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >If AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=1, then VMS will change the time >automatically and reset the value of the timezone logicals: > > "SYS$TIMEZONE_DAYLIGHT_SAVING" = "1" > "SYS$TIMEZONE_DIFFERENTIAL" = "-14400" > "SYS$TIMEZONE_NAME" = "EDT" > >this shouldn't change: > "SYS$TIMEZONE_RULE" = "EST5EDT4,M3.2.0/02,M11.1.0/02" > >If AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=0, then VMS will let you do the >change manually. To do that, you must use the >UTC$TIME_SETUP procedure. Again, do not run this >to jump the time BEFORE the appointed hour. > >If you are running NTP through the time-change, and >SET_VMS_LOGICALS is in effect: > >set_vms_logicals >server 2.1.3.4 >disable opcom > >then you MUST have AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV = 0. > >If you do NOT want ntp to be fighting you while >the time changes, Process recommends >stopping the NTP service before the change >(multinet netcontrol ntp shutdown) and then >re-starting it well after the time change (I >waited until Monday at 6am: >$ multinet netcontrol ntp start > >[in a cluster, do these on each node] >On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 5:44 PM, wrote: > >So, for method [A] -- let NTP mange the process: > >-- AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=0 (not dynamic, run Autogen reboot) >-- SET_VMS_LOGICALS is in your multinet:ntp.conf > >this works exactly as expected (thank you, Multinet/Process). > >for method [B] (no NTP, automatic) > >-- AUTO_DLIGHT_SAV=1 > >[I have not tested this, but I'm sure that works as expected] > > >for method [C] (ntp is running on your system, but you have >to determine when to jump the time: > >-- @sys$manager:utc$time_setup SHOW to see what VMS >expects; >-- multinet ntp netcontrol shutdown well before the time change; >--@sys$manager:utc$time_setup to change the time, but >wait until after the time change appointed hour (after 2AM >Sunday). If you don't, some of the logical names will not >be changed, and I don't know what other problems you >will have. Most of the worst issues I have had came about >because I ran this too soon. >-- define MULTINET_TIMEZONE "EDT" /sys/exec by hand > >wait until Monday morning early to renable NTP: >-- multinet ntp netcontrol start > >Aside from the annoying behavior of the queue manager >(which, IMNSHO, should not screw this up) of releasing >everything scheduled to run between 2AM and 3AM, >DST changes now seem to be as good as they could >be without doing the sensible thing that Unix does, >and keep the machine time with UTC, and the display >times based on localtime. > >Carl Friedberg > >> >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote on 03/11/2008 >> 07:25:24 PM: >> >> >> >> > In article <47D6E52B.2070809@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> > writes: >> > > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: >> > >> >> > >> I do not run DTSS. I do run Multinet. The time changes >> > >> via NTP. The multinet _timezone logical changes without >> > >> any action from me. >> > >> >> > > >> > > NTP has nothing to do with it or, a least, it shouldn't have anything >> to >> > > do with it! As far as NTP is concerned, timezones are a figment of >> your >> > > imagination. >> > >> > That is true on UNIX, but not on VMS. Multinet NTP does alter the >> > system time to deal with the fact that VMS keeps the clock in local >> > time. >> > >> That still leaves the fact that the Queue Manager seems to know it's EDT, >> but >> the Show time does not. >> >> Trying to submit this for fall-back is even dicier, since there are >> two 2:00 a.m.s. Setting the differential at 2:00 a.m. EDT >> to EST will show *what* during the next hour for show time? >> >> ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 2008 10:53:57 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <47da5945$0$25044$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , Robert Deininger writes: >In article , Fred Bach wrote: > >> Dear comp.os.vms, >> >> This one caught me by surprise. Apparently the problem has >> been around for at least a year, looking back into old mail. >> >> Let's hope none of you are reading this on VMS Mail. ;-) >> >> On the other hand, if you are reading this on VMS mail, >> and if the following text all reads correctly, please tell >> me how you set up your VMS mail. >> >> We are running >> Process Software MultiNet V5.1 Rev A-X, AlphaServer DS10 >> 617 MHz, OpenVMS AXP V8.3 >> >> SYNOPSIS: >> >> VMS Mail translates tilde characters ("~") in the body of >> the mail, into dollar sign characters for incoming mail. >> >> I think it is REALLY BAD FORM for an email program to >> translate any legitimate incoming characters in a text >> message into other text characters. >> >> In fact, unless we can turn this off, this 'feature' >> makes me think that VMS Mail has, sadly, at last become >> effectively unusable as a reliable communications tool. >> >> >> THE DETAILS: >> >> Some screen copy: >> >> > OPS_DEVBN2> mail >> > >> > MAIL> send >> > To: ops >> > CC: >> > Subj: Tilde Test >> > Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C to quit: >> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >> > ~~~~~~ >> > asdfghjk >> > ASDFHJK; >> > >> > >> > MAIL> SEL/NEW >> > %MAIL-I-SELECTED, 1 message selected >> > >> > MAIL> READ >> > >> > >> > #1 13-MAR-2008 14:21:10.89 NEWMAIL >> > From: DEVCLU::OPS >> > To: OPS >> > CC: OPS >> > Subj: Tilde Test >> > >> > $ $ $ $ $ >> > $$$$$$ >> > asdfghjk >> > ASDFHJK; >> > >> > MAIL> >> >> PLEASE notice how VMS Mail translates the tilde character >> "~" into a dollar sign. This means that when I receive a >> URL with a tilde in it (very common in expressing users' >> private spaces at a particular domain) the URL is not >> directly usable in a browser window. >> >> The tilde gets translated to a dollar sign on receiving >> mail, not on transmitting, as verified in tests sending >> tilde's to non-VMS machines on the local net. The tilde >> characters arrive just fine and are displayed correctly >> on those machines. >> >> I'm shocked that VMS would do something like this. >> >> >> THE REQUEST: >> >> How did this logic come about? Is there some VMS logical >> that we can set to prevent this from happening? I had a >> quick scan of the online VMS Mail documentation and found >> no reference. So far, other than confirming the fault, >> I can't find anyone here who knows anything about it. >> >> Thanks. >> >> . fred bach . music at triumf dot c a > >I reproduced this easily on my V8.3 system. > >The original data is intact in the mail file; only the display is >affected. If you EXTRACT the message, the tildes are still there. > >There is a filtering routine that removes "bad" characters from the >display, replacing them with "$". The comments indicate it is to >prevent escape sequences from changing screen attributes, etc. > >In 2005, the filter was modified to add "}", "~", and some other >characters to the set that is replaced with "$" on display. The stated >reason was that some terminal emulators (which ones not specified) were >finding escape sequences when "}" was used in certain sequences. > >Mail unfortunately does not know how to account for different terminal >types. It applies the same output filtering for any terminal. > >In 2006, the filtering was changed again. If logical name MAIL$FILTER >is defined to "1", the old filtering is restored w.r.t. "}" and "~". It >has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1": > $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1 > >This change has been made, but it appears that no MAIL patch has been >issued that contains the change. The logical name works in V8.3-1H1 >(Integrity only). > >If you have support, I think you should ask for a patch containing the >MAIL$FILTER support. If you go this route, it might save time if you >refer to SCT #5991, which is the internal note that contains some >details. The lows HP will stoop to force people over to integrity. I recall a number of MAIL issues over the years. I used to run an old copy of MAIL.EXE because of such issues. I suppose this could be fixed running the V8.2 MAIL.EXE too. I'll check later. As for the "logical"... I would prefer it have been some option in the mail profile. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:12:42 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: In article <47d9b9b3$0$5604$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >In article , Fred Bach writes: >> >>Dear comp.os.vms, >> >> This one caught me by surprise. Apparently the problem has >> been around for at least a year, looking back into old mail. >> >> Let's hope none of you are reading this on VMS Mail. ;-) >> >> On the other hand, if you are reading this on VMS mail, >> and if the following text all reads correctly, please tell >> me how you set up your VMS mail. >> >> We are running >> Process Software MultiNet V5.1 Rev A-X, AlphaServer DS10 >> 617 MHz, OpenVMS AXP V8.3 >> >>SYNOPSIS: >> >> VMS Mail translates tilde characters ("~") in the body of >> the mail, into dollar sign characters for incoming mail. >> >> I think it is REALLY BAD FORM for an email program to >> translate any legitimate incoming characters in a text >> message into other text characters. >> >> In fact, unless we can turn this off, this 'feature' >> makes me think that VMS Mail has, sadly, at last become >> effectively unusable as a reliable communications tool. > >Wow! Confirmed! > >Not on V7.3-2 but V8.3 does exhibit your reported behavior. > Interesting. I confirmed it with VMS MAIL on an Alpha VMS 8.3 system (it doesn't happen on my other VMS 7.3-1 systems). #1 14-MAR-2008 11:01:13.94 MAIL From: ::SYSTEM To: SYSTEM CC: Subj: test $ $$$$$ However I have PMDF mail on this system so I looked at the same mail message (which had been sent using VMS Mail) using PMDF MAIL then I see Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:01:13 +0000 (GMT) From: "::SYSTEM"@mdx.ac.uk Subject: test ~ To: SYSTEM@mdx.ac.uk X-VMS-To: SYSTEM X-VMS-Cc: ~~~~~ So it looks like the ~ is actually stored in the mail file and it is just VMS Mail's displaying of the message on VMS 8.3 which is causing the problem. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >-- >VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:33:03 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: In article <47da5945$0$25044$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , > Robert Deininger writes: > >In article , Fred Bach wrote: > > > >> Dear comp.os.vms, > >> > >> This one caught me by surprise. Apparently the problem has > >> been around for at least a year, looking back into old mail. > >> > >> Let's hope none of you are reading this on VMS Mail. ;-) > >> > >> On the other hand, if you are reading this on VMS mail, > >> and if the following text all reads correctly, please tell > >> me how you set up your VMS mail. > >> > >> We are running > >> Process Software MultiNet V5.1 Rev A-X, AlphaServer DS10 > >> 617 MHz, OpenVMS AXP V8.3 > >> > >> SYNOPSIS: > >> > >> VMS Mail translates tilde characters ("~") in the body of > >> the mail, into dollar sign characters for incoming mail. > >> > >> I think it is REALLY BAD FORM for an email program to > >> translate any legitimate incoming characters in a text > >> message into other text characters. > >> > >> In fact, unless we can turn this off, this 'feature' > >> makes me think that VMS Mail has, sadly, at last become > >> effectively unusable as a reliable communications tool. > >> > >> > >> THE DETAILS: > >> > >> Some screen copy: > >> > >> > OPS_DEVBN2> mail > >> > > >> > MAIL> send > >> > To: ops > >> > CC: > >> > Subj: Tilde Test > >> > Enter your message below. Press CTRL/Z when complete, or CTRL/C to quit: > >> > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > >> > ~~~~~~ > >> > asdfghjk > >> > ASDFHJK; > >> > > >> > > >> > MAIL> SEL/NEW > >> > %MAIL-I-SELECTED, 1 message selected > >> > > >> > MAIL> READ > >> > > >> > > >> > #1 13-MAR-2008 14:21:10.89 NEWMAIL > >> > From: DEVCLU::OPS > >> > To: OPS > >> > CC: OPS > >> > Subj: Tilde Test > >> > > >> > $ $ $ $ $ > >> > $$$$$$ > >> > asdfghjk > >> > ASDFHJK; > >> > > >> > MAIL> > >> > >> PLEASE notice how VMS Mail translates the tilde character > >> "~" into a dollar sign. This means that when I receive a > >> URL with a tilde in it (very common in expressing users' > >> private spaces at a particular domain) the URL is not > >> directly usable in a browser window. > >> > >> The tilde gets translated to a dollar sign on receiving > >> mail, not on transmitting, as verified in tests sending > >> tilde's to non-VMS machines on the local net. The tilde > >> characters arrive just fine and are displayed correctly > >> on those machines. > >> > >> I'm shocked that VMS would do something like this. > >> > >> > >> THE REQUEST: > >> > >> How did this logic come about? Is there some VMS logical > >> that we can set to prevent this from happening? I had a > >> quick scan of the online VMS Mail documentation and found > >> no reference. So far, other than confirming the fault, > >> I can't find anyone here who knows anything about it. > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> . fred bach . music at triumf dot c a > > > >I reproduced this easily on my V8.3 system. > > > >The original data is intact in the mail file; only the display is > >affected. If you EXTRACT the message, the tildes are still there. > > > >There is a filtering routine that removes "bad" characters from the > >display, replacing them with "$". The comments indicate it is to > >prevent escape sequences from changing screen attributes, etc. > > > >In 2005, the filter was modified to add "}", "~", and some other > >characters to the set that is replaced with "$" on display. The stated > >reason was that some terminal emulators (which ones not specified) were > >finding escape sequences when "}" was used in certain sequences. > > > >Mail unfortunately does not know how to account for different terminal > >types. It applies the same output filtering for any terminal. > > > >In 2006, the filtering was changed again. If logical name MAIL$FILTER > >is defined to "1", the old filtering is restored w.r.t. "}" and "~". It > >has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1": > > $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1 > > > >This change has been made, but it appears that no MAIL patch has been > >issued that contains the change. The logical name works in V8.3-1H1 > >(Integrity only). > > > >If you have support, I think you should ask for a patch containing the > >MAIL$FILTER support. If you go this route, it might save time if you > >refer to SCT #5991, which is the internal note that contains some > >details. > > The lows HP will stoop to force people over to integrity. !!!!???? Did you forget to type a smiley or something? Please put away your tinfoil hat for a moment. Step away from c.o.v. and go outside for some fresh air. There's no anti-alpha conspiracy here. Mail is "broken" in all releases that shipped since the first change and before the second change, on Alpha and Integrity. If V8.3-1H1 had been shipped for Alpha, it would have the second change, just like Integrity. Since V8.3-1H1 was mostly to support new hardware (Integrity systems and I/O adapters), it wasn't released for Alpha. The next release on both platforms will have the second change. Great conspiracy! The Mail image with the second change is just sitting there waiting, for several different VMS releases, both Alpha and Integrity. Evidently NOBODY has ever asked for a fix to be shipped. That includes the engineer who made both of the changes I described above. My expectation is that any customer who requests the fix will get it in short order, and if there's a bit of demand, MAIL patch kits will go on the release queue. > I recall a number of MAIL issues over the years. I used to run an old > copy of MAIL.EXE because of such issues. I suppose this could be fixed > running the V8.2 MAIL.EXE too. I'll check later. > > As for the "logical"... I would prefer it have been some option in the > mail profile. The engineer considered solutions with wider scope, and deliberately chose a process-based one. The type of terminal (or emulator) is key to the need for removing the offending characters. Neither the system-wide mail parameter nor the username-specific mail profile is well matched to the need. -- Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <8d350228-923f-4c08-a32c-124d68809973@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Mar 14, 7:33=A0am, Robert Deininger wrote: > In article <47da5945$0$25044$607ed...@cv.net>, > =A0VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > >In article , Fred Bach wrote: > > >> Dear comp.os.vms, : > > >> =A0 =A0VMS Mail translates tilde characters ("~") in the body of > > >> =A0 =A0the mail, into dollar sign characters for incoming mail. Yikes. Thanks for the heads up. > > >In 2005, the filter was modified to add "}", "~", and some other > > >characters to the set that is replaced with "$" on display. =A0 What were they thinking? Were they thinking ? Honestly, since when did a lone twiddle turn evil !? > > >The stated > > >reason was that some terminal emulators (which ones not specified) were= > > >finding escape sequences when "}" was used in certain sequences. And VMS bows to that?! And does not bother to indicate which emulator?! :-(. > > >In 2006, the filtering was changed again. =A0If logical name MAIL$FILTE= R > > >is defined to "1", the old filtering is restored w.r.t. "}" and "~". = =A0It > > >has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1": > > > =A0$ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1 They broke it. The original behavious was correct. The default should be no extra filter. It is 'nice' that OpenVMS is willing to accomadate a broken terminal emulator through logical for those bother by that, but that should be optional. > > >The logical name works in V8.3-1H1 (Integrity only). > > The lows HP will stoop to force people over to integrity. > > !!!!???? > > Did you forget to type a smiley or something? Honestly Brian... Anyway, just picking up an old MAIL.EXE UI should fix this right? fwiw, Hein. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 2008 09:05:58 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: In article , Robert Deininger writes: > > In 2006, the filtering was changed again. If logical name MAIL$FILTER > is defined to "1", the old filtering is restored w.r.t. "}" and "~". It > has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1": > $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1 > It has to be a process logical? That's awfull. I put all my settings in my job table so they only have to exist once for all my tasks, whether in the current process or in one I spawned while logging in. So if I want this, I'll have to set it in my detached process before I spawn any subprocesses and let it tramp around all those process tables. Back in the early 80's we recognised that tramp data was an indication of poor design. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:51:06 +0000 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: Given the fact that VMSMAIL already filters escape sequences to prevent mail senders from changing your terminal settings, I don't think this was unreasonable behavior. After all, contrast this thinking with the Microsoft engineers who never considered that allowing people to launch applications by double clicking on attachments was tantamount to handing control of your PC to whoever sent you a mail message ! At least the VMS people were considering the possibilities of malicious intent even in this relatively innocent era. As has been pointed out, actually changing the data stored in the mail folders would have been much much worse. > In 2006, the filtering was changed again. If logical name MAIL$FILTER > is defined to "1", the old filtering is restored w.r.t. "}" and "~". Of course, any such change should have had a "return-to-original-behavior" type setting incorporated immediately, but at least it was done. > It has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1": > $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1 I can't understand the thinking here. Surely it would have been just as easily to query LNM$FILE_DEV as LNM$PROCESS ? Of course, this is easily worked around. Define a SYSTEM wide logical MAIL_FILTER to be the way you want it, and have a DEFINE command in SYS$SYLOGIN copy this settting to a process logical MAIL$FILTER before activating the user's own LOGIN.COM (thus allowing him to override). > The logical name works in V8.3-1H1 (Integrity only). And one would assume in subsequent OpenVMS Alpha versions. --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 13:58:23 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <3wvCj.4768$R_4.4223@newsb.telia.net> Tom Wade wrote: > Of course, this is easily worked around. Define a SYSTEM wide logical > MAIL_FILTER to be the way you want it, and have a DEFINE command in > SYS$SYLOGIN copy this settting to a process logical MAIL$FILTER before > activating the user's own LOGIN.COM (thus allowing him to override). Why not set it as you want it to be system wide in the sylogin in the first place. What is won with the first MAIL_FILTER logical ? Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:14:52 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: In article , Tom Wade writes: >Given the fact that VMSMAIL already filters escape sequences to prevent >mail senders from changing your terminal settings, I don't think this >was unreasonable behavior. Escape sequences yes but ~ and } are ASCII printable characters. I'd really like to know what terminal emulator acts on printable characters by doing anything other than just displaying them. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >After all, contrast this thinking with the >Microsoft engineers who never considered that allowing people to launch >applications by double clicking on attachments was tantamount to handing >control of your PC to whoever sent you a mail message ! At least the VMS >people were considering the possibilities of malicious intent even in >this relatively innocent era. > >As has been pointed out, actually changing the data stored in the mail >folders would have been much much worse. > >> In 2006, the filtering was changed again. If logical name MAIL$FILTER >> is defined to "1", the old filtering is restored w.r.t. "}" and "~". > >Of course, any such change should have had a >"return-to-original-behavior" type setting incorporated immediately, but > at least it was done. > >> It has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1": >> $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1 > >I can't understand the thinking here. Surely it would have been just as >easily to query LNM$FILE_DEV as LNM$PROCESS ? > >Of course, this is easily worked around. Define a SYSTEM wide logical >MAIL_FILTER to be the way you want it, and have a DEFINE command in >SYS$SYLOGIN copy this settting to a process logical MAIL$FILTER before >activating the user's own LOGIN.COM (thus allowing him to override). > >> The logical name works in V8.3-1H1 (Integrity only). > >And one would assume in subsequent OpenVMS Alpha versions. > >--------------------------------------------------------- >Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie >EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 >A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 >Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer >Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" >Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:34:56 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <25a748b9-7cd4-4022-b08a-1dfe444ac0f6@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 14, 9:58 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > Tom Wade wrote: > > Of course, this is easily worked around. Define a SYSTEM wide logical > > MAIL_FILTER to be the way you want it, and have a DEFINE command in > > SYS$SYLOGIN copy this settting to a process logical MAIL$FILTER before > > activating the user's own LOGIN.COM (thus allowing him to override). > > Why not set it as you want it to be system wide in the sylogin in > the first place. What is won with the first MAIL_FILTER logical ? > > Jan-Erik. Seconded. I thought the whole point of having process, job, group, and system logical names and the different access modes is that you can define a global value in the system (or cluster) table and override that as necessary with the process, job, and group tables. What is gained by limiting this to the process table? You can still override the global setting with process logical names, you get the idea. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:42:28 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: AEF wrote: > On Mar 14, 9:58 am, Jan-Erik Söderholm > wrote: >> Tom Wade wrote: >>> Of course, this is easily worked around. Define a SYSTEM wide logical >>> MAIL_FILTER to be the way you want it, and have a DEFINE command in >>> SYS$SYLOGIN copy this settting to a process logical MAIL$FILTER before >>> activating the user's own LOGIN.COM (thus allowing him to override). >> Why not set it as you want it to be system wide in the sylogin in >> the first place. What is won with the first MAIL_FILTER logical ? >> >> Jan-Erik. > > Seconded. I thought the whole point of having process, job, group, and > system logical names and the different access modes is that you can > define a global value in the system (or cluster) table and override > that as necessary with the process, job, and group tables. What is > gained by limiting this to the process table? You can still override > the global setting with process logical names, you get the idea. > > AEF That was not was I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first create one logical i system table, then "copy" that logical in the SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first place in the process table in the SYLOGICAL ? Having MAIL.EXE to read the system table is another issue. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:45:11 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > AEF wrote: >> On Mar 14, 9:58 am, Jan-Erik Söderholm >> wrote: >>> Tom Wade wrote: >>>> Of course, this is easily worked around. Define a SYSTEM wide logical >>>> MAIL_FILTER to be the way you want it, and have a DEFINE command in >>>> SYS$SYLOGIN copy this settting to a process logical MAIL$FILTER before >>>> activating the user's own LOGIN.COM (thus allowing him to override). >>> Why not set it as you want it to be system wide in the sylogin in >>> the first place. What is won with the first MAIL_FILTER logical ? >>> >>> Jan-Erik. >> >> Seconded. I thought the whole point of having process, job, group, and >> system logical names and the different access modes is that you can >> define a global value in the system (or cluster) table and override >> that as necessary with the process, job, and group tables. What is >> gained by limiting this to the process table? You can still override >> the global setting with process logical names, you get the idea. >> >> AEF > > That was not was I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first > create one logical i system table, then "copy" that logical in the > SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first place > in the process table in the SYLOGICAL ? > > Having MAIL.EXE to read the system table is another issue. > > Jan-Erik. Several errors there.... :-) Edited version : That was not what I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first create one logical i the system table, then "copy" that logical in the SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first place in the process table using SYLOGIN.COM ? I do not see the use of that first system wide logical. Having MAIL.EXE to read the system table is another issue. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 2008 15:06:26 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <47da9472$0$5640$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , Robert Deininger writes: >{...snip...} >Did you forget to type a smiley or something? > >Please put away your tinfoil hat for a moment. Step away from c.o.v. >and go outside for some fresh air. There's no anti-alpha conspiracy >here. C'mon Robert, you know I don't wear hats! >> As for the "logical"... I would prefer it have been some option in the >> mail profile. > >The engineer considered solutions with wider scope, and deliberately >chose a process-based one. The type of terminal (or emulator) is key to >the need for removing the offending characters. Neither the system-wide >mail parameter nor the username-specific mail profile is well matched to >the need. I can set, for example, the editor on a per-process basis. What would be the reason for having to preclude using the user's mail profile in lieu of a process logical? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:12:40 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Robert Deininger writes: >> {...snip...} >> Did you forget to type a smiley or something? >> >> Please put away your tinfoil hat for a moment. Step away from c.o.v. >> and go outside for some fresh air. There's no anti-alpha conspiracy >> here. > > C'mon Robert, you know I don't wear hats! > > > >>> As for the "logical"... I would prefer it have been some option in the >>> mail profile. >> The engineer considered solutions with wider scope, and deliberately >> chose a process-based one. The type of terminal (or emulator) is key to >> the need for removing the offending characters. Neither the system-wide >> mail parameter nor the username-specific mail profile is well matched to >> the need. > > I can set, for example, the editor on a per-process basis. What would be > the reason for having to preclude using the user's mail profile in lieu of > a process logical? > You can set a process logical once for all users as system manager. I do not think you can do that with the Mail profile. By having it in SYLOGIN.COM there is nothing additional to be done when a new user is created. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 2008 12:54:27 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: > > That was not was I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first > create one logical i system table, then "copy" that logical in the > SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first place > in the process table in the SYLOGICAL ? If SYLOGICAL creates a process table logical name, it will go away when booting is finished and the process that runs SYLOGICAL exits. Putting it in SYLOGIN won't help processes created with run/detach or similar means. They're not likely to be running MAIL, but that should be the implimenter's decision, not VMS Engineering. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Mar 2008 17:05:20 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <47dab050$0$25019$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article , Robert Deininger writes: >>> {...snip...} >>> Did you forget to type a smiley or something? >>> >>> Please put away your tinfoil hat for a moment. Step away from c.o.v. >>> and go outside for some fresh air. There's no anti-alpha conspiracy >>> here. >> >> C'mon Robert, you know I don't wear hats! >> >> >> >>>> As for the "logical"... I would prefer it have been some option in the >>>> mail profile. >>> The engineer considered solutions with wider scope, and deliberately >>> chose a process-based one. The type of terminal (or emulator) is key to >>> the need for removing the offending characters. Neither the system-wide >>> mail parameter nor the username-specific mail profile is well matched to >>> the need. >> >> I can set, for example, the editor on a per-process basis. What would be >> the reason for having to preclude using the user's mail profile in lieu of >> a process logical? >> > >You can set a process logical once for all users as system manager. >I do not think you can do that with the Mail profile. Not as it exists now but... $ MAIL MAIL> SET [FORWARD/PERSONAL_NAME] /USER={username} still seems to function. A simple addition to this would be to define a default profiles for mail with this new _"feature"_. >By having it in SYLOGIN.COM there is nothing additional to be done >when a new user is created. Then why not have MAIL$FILTER translate through LNM$DEV_FILE? Set it once for _SITE_ preference and override it in process logical tables for those hapless sots which are using this flawed terminal emulator? Ideally, the behavior shouldn't change *PERIOD*! Only in the presence if the logical should there be an alternate behavior. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:13:55 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >> That was not was I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first >> create one logical i system table, then "copy" that logical in the >> SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first place >> in the process table in the SYLOGICAL ? > > If SYLOGICAL creates a process table logical name, it will go away > when booting is finished and the process that runs SYLOGICAL exits. I corrected that in another post to SYLOGIN. Of course SYLOGICAL has nothing to do with this. > > Putting it in SYLOGIN won't help processes created with run/detach > or similar means. Doesn't LOGINOUT.EXE run SYLOGIN.COM ? I thought we agreed on that LOGINOUT.EXE was the correct way to run/detached. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:17:08 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> You can set a process logical once for all users as system manager. >> I do not think you can do that with the Mail profile. > > Not as it exists now but... Right, "now" was what I thought we where talking about. :-) > Then why not have MAIL$FILTER translate through LNM$DEV_FILE? If we're talking about whatever *could* be done, well, I also can come up with better solutions... :-) Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <3dc94d03-9d20-43fb-b727-f470799392c7@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Mar 14, 10:45 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > > AEF wrote: > >> On Mar 14, 9:58 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm = > >> wrote: > >>> Tom Wade wrote: > >>>> Of course, this is easily worked around. Define a SYSTEM wide logica= l > >>>> MAIL_FILTER to be the way you want it, and have a DEFINE command in > >>>> SYS$SYLOGIN copy this settting to a process logical MAIL$FILTER befor= e > >>>> activating the user's own LOGIN.COM (thus allowing him to override). > >>> Why not set it as you want it to be system wide in the sylogin in > >>> the first place. What is won with the first MAIL_FILTER logical ? > > >>> Jan-Erik. > > >> Seconded. I thought the whole point of having process, job, group, and > >> system logical names and the different access modes is that you can > >> define a global value in the system (or cluster) table and override > >> that as necessary with the process, job, and group tables. What is > >> gained by limiting this to the process table? You can still override > >> the global setting with process logical names, you get the idea. > > >> AEF > > > That was not was I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first > > create one logical i system table, then "copy" that logical in the > > SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first place > > in the process table in the SYLOGICAL ? > > > Having MAIL.EXE to read the system table is another issue. > > > Jan-Erik. > > Several errors there.... :-) Edited version : > > That was not what I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first > create one logical i the system table, then "copy" that logical in > the SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first > place in the process table using SYLOGIN.COM ? I do not see the > use of that first system wide logical. > > Having MAIL.EXE to read the system table is another issue. > > Jan-Erik. Sorry. OK, not a whole lot of sleep last night! It still seems to me that it should work like the usual logical names where the process has precedence over the job table, ... group... system, and the access modes and such. Why limit it to the process table? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:29:51 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: AEF wrote: > It still seems to me that it should work like the usual logical names > where the process has precedence over the job table, ... group... > system, and the access modes and such. Why limit it to the process > table? That is a change to how it actualy works. I can also easily come up with a lot of ways it could be made better then beeing locked to the process logical table. But that is another issue... :-) Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.148 ************************