INFO-VAX Sun, 16 Mar 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 151 Contents: Re: Microvax II + 9-Track OT: Trolls (was So you think God and the devil are not real?) Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Re: VMS garage sale Re: VMS garage sale Re: VMS garage sale Re: VMS garage sale Re: VMS garage sale Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:48:12 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Microvax II + 9-Track Message-ID: BEGINcornelius@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) wrote in news:to2AAcmQ7J0+@eisner.encompasserve.org: > > Yes, I'm interested - I will send you email - but I'm trying to > figure out how to get the system, or the parts of it I want - to > Minnesota. > > -- > George Cornelius Remove BEGIN/END to > reply I'm happy to see someone take it. Chuck lives across town from me, but I can't take it... my wife want's me to get rid of most of what I already have. I'm sure she'd like it if I put a few extras in him container to you. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:09:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Phillips Subject: OT: Trolls (was So you think God and the devil are not real?) Message-ID: On Mar 15, 8:40 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >>Oh no, you fed the troll, now it will haunt you until you starve it with > >>silence for an eternity > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll > > more photos at:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Trolls > > I especially like the image of the road sign "Troll Crossing" in Norway > :-) :-) > > What is not clear is what could have happened to turn a bubbly VMS > supporter into the religions troll that he had become. > > Is this a communicable disease ? Are VMS supporters more likely to catch > it ? Fun little place to visit if you're ever in the area. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:37:27 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Message-ID: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com writes: >On Mar 14, 1:46 pm, BEGINcornel...@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) >wrote: >[...] >> The shadow copy actually _reads_ from both disks before overwriting - for >> reasons that are not precisely clear to me - and it is expected behavior >> in that case for a read error to occur given that we already know that >> the target volume has forced error bits. [...] >I'm sure there is a post from Keith Parris in the archives about this, >but >the initial pair of READs is to save on I/Os if the blocks compare >equal. >In the case that they are different, there are 3 additional I/Os >required, >IIRC: one to write the data to the target of the shadow copy, another >to read back the newly written block and make sure its correct, and >possibly one more to read the source and make sure it hasn't changed? >See Keith's posts for a more accurate description. ;-} It's actually a clever algorithm that allows the shadow copy to take place without having to synchronize access with every file on the shadowset when its blocks are copied to the new member. Such synchronization would greatly complicate shadowing. Shadowing is complicated enough already. I believe Digital had a patent on the algorithm. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 00:59:13 +0100 From: "CyberCityNews" Subject: Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Message-ID: <47dc634a$0$89169$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> AEF wrote: > On Mar 14, 10:01 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835 > > Well, this looks like a good chance win James Randi's million dollar > challenge! See > > http://www.randi.org/ > > for details. > > And after that, kindly go away. > > AEF Oh no, you fed the troll, now it will haunt you until you starve it with silence for an eternity Dweeb ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 2008 01:01:44 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Message-ID: <47dc7178$0$25041$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <47dc634a$0$89169$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "CyberCityNews" writes: >AEF wrote: >> On Mar 14, 10:01 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >>> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835 >> >> Well, this looks like a good chance win James Randi's million dollar >> challenge! See >> >> http://www.randi.org/ >> >> for details. >> >> And after that, kindly go away. >> >> AEF > >Oh no, you fed the troll, now it will haunt you until you starve it with >silence for an eternity ROTFLMFAO! http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/troll.jpg -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:40:27 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Message-ID: <47dc7a9e$0$23931$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> >>Oh no, you fed the troll, now it will haunt you until you starve it with >>silence for an eternity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll more photos at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Trolls I especially like the image of the road sign "Troll Crossing" in Norway :-) :-) What is not clear is what could have happened to turn a bubbly VMS supporter into the religions troll that he had become. Is this a communicable disease ? Are VMS supporters more likely to catch it ? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:54:00 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Message-ID: <47DC7DB8.4090303@comcast.net> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835 Yeah! Right! It's "The Exorcist" all over again! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:51:47 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: So you think God and the devil are not real? Message-ID: <583c2$47dc9958$cef8887a$32441@TEKSAVVY.COM> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: >> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835 > > Yeah! Right! It's "The Exorcist" all over again! > But there is a more modern solution for this. And it as MARKETING that made that solution very popular starting in the 1980s. One of their original ads (audio only): http://www.vaxination.ca/ghostbusters.mp3 This company succesfully dealt with a case of Sigourney Weaver's New York appartment being posessed to a point where she slept 4 feet above her covers, and ended up falling in love with Rick Moranis before both of them became slaves to ZUL. It was also one of the more spectacular appearances of Puff the marshmallow guy on the streets of New York City. (this was recorded on a old MacPlus with a special sound unit plugged into a appletalk port, and files survived in macbinary format on a VAX disk drive and then moved via FTP to OS-X (if you name the resulting file .bin , you can then double click on it and OS-X will recreate the original file, and the file was then converted to MP3 format with itunes). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:28:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip Coldwell Subject: Re: VMS garage sale Message-ID: <3a04a1c9-94b6-484c-8367-e231a1cc8bf0@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 15, 12:52 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > Charles Coldwell wrote: > > > I find myself in need of more space, so I'm trying to find good homes > > for my collection of VMS books and machines. The machines are an XP1000 > > and a PWS500a (upgraded to a PWS600au). There are about 10 shelf-feet > > of books, most for versions 7.1/7.2 (Alpha), including the programming > > reference manuals (green cover), system manager manauals (red cover) and > > user manuals (blue cover). > > > If you are interested, please contact me. I'm basically ready to give > > this stuff away to anybody who will pay shipping. > > Where are you located? Somerville, Massachusetts, USA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 16:42:55 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: VMS garage sale Message-ID: <47DC34CF.5070200@comcast.net> Chip Coldwell wrote: > On Mar 15, 12:52 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: >> Charles Coldwell wrote: >> >>> I find myself in need of more space, so I'm trying to find good homes >>> for my collection of VMS books and machines. The machines are an XP1000 >>> and a PWS500a (upgraded to a PWS600au). There are about 10 shelf-feet >>> of books, most for versions 7.1/7.2 (Alpha), including the programming >>> reference manuals (green cover), system manager manauals (red cover) and >>> user manuals (blue cover). >>> If you are interested, please contact me. I'm basically ready to give >>> this stuff away to anybody who will pay shipping. I'm interested - I've emailed you. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 22:12:29 GMT From: cf Subject: Re: VMS garage sale Message-ID: <4diot31v8mm29svm2un4369emif61fgool@4ax.com> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:50:02 GMT, Charles Coldwell wrote: > >I find myself in need of more space, so I'm trying to find good homes >for my collection of VMS books and machines. The machines are an XP1000 >and a PWS500a (upgraded to a PWS600au). There are about 10 shelf-feet >of books, most for versions 7.1/7.2 (Alpha), including the programming >reference manuals (green cover), system manager manauals (red cover) and >user manuals (blue cover). > >If you are interested, please contact me. I'm basically ready to give >this stuff away to anybody who will pay shipping. > >Chip Would be more that happy to take the stuff. Will pay fifty plus shipping for the computers. Let me know Reply to carl dot fulton at verizon dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 22:14:58 GMT From: cf Subject: Re: VMS garage sale Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:50:02 GMT, Charles Coldwell wrote: > >I find myself in need of more space, so I'm trying to find good homes >for my collection of VMS books and machines. The machines are an XP1000 >and a PWS500a (upgraded to a PWS600au). There are about 10 shelf-feet >of books, most for versions 7.1/7.2 (Alpha), including the programming >reference manuals (green cover), system manager manauals (red cover) and >user manuals (blue cover). > >If you are interested, please contact me. I'm basically ready to give >this stuff away to anybody who will pay shipping. > >Chip Would be more that happy to take the stuff. Will pay fifty plus shipping for the computers. Let me know Reply to carl dot fulton at verizon dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 20:16:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip Coldwell Subject: Re: VMS garage sale Message-ID: <779e1ac5-54d5-4d21-bb71-95377cbc339b@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 15, 6:14 pm, cf wrote: > On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:50:02 GMT, Charles Coldwell > > wrote: > > >I find myself in need of more space, so I'm trying to find good homes > >for my collection of VMS books and machines. The machines are an XP1000 > >and a PWS500a (upgraded to a PWS600au). There are about 10 shelf-feet > >of books, most for versions 7.1/7.2 (Alpha), including the programming > >reference manuals (green cover), system manager manauals (red cover) and > >user manuals (blue cover). > > >If you are interested, please contact me. I'm basically ready to give > >this stuff away to anybody who will pay shipping. > > >Chip > > Would be more that happy to take the stuff. > Will pay fifty plus shipping for the computers. > Let me know > Reply to > carl dot fulton at verizon dot net Looks like there are some locals that are interested in doing a pickup, which is by far the easiest thing for me, so I will try to make arrangements with them. If there's stuff left over, I'll post a list to this newsgroup. Thanks to everyone who responded. Chip ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 12:48:54 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <08031512485420_2020CE0A@antinode.org> From: AEF > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? I haven't used it lately, but years ago, when I had a Sun workstation at my desk, I used dtmail (one of Sun's contributions to the real CDE, as I recall). My needs are simple, but it seemed to have a relatively handy interface, and could deal easily with attachments. No one ever bothered to adapt it to VMS for the New Desktop. (UNIX-like message store, I assume, would complicate the task.) > Are office people going to be > running from a Unix prompt? More than will be using VMS, I'd guess. > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? Which application gets more use than e-mail? From a typical user's perspective, what's the weakest application on VMS? A friend recently sent me a fancy e-mail message, basically a Web page with HTML and images. I attacked it using the (lame) MIME utility, which discarded the directory segments of the attachment names. I managed to sort it out after fiddling with the HTML and/or creating and populating the directories. On how many other modern systems would I have needed to waste so much time and effort on what should be a pretty simple task? It's already no good, and then they break it. Amazing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 2008 18:15:13 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <642i1hF29kl10U1@mid.individual.net> In article <53e898bc-8c31-4040-bc98-6042d6790afd@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> Jan-Erik Söderholm writes: >> >> >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm! >> >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received >> >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to >> >>> do so. >> >> > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last >> > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. >> > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so >> > on, thought... >> >> >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You >> >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Interesting. >> >> >> bill >> >> > Never using VMS mail. >> > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? >> >> Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see >> usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an >> Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would >> type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it >> doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway >> so it is a non-problem. >> >> >> >> > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? >> >> > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-) >> >> OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought >> we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with >> VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if >> you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about >> how they read their email? > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? Well, how many more pieces of VMS need to become deliberately broken before you finally give up? My main point was if you have to use some other OS in order to use VMS, why not just move everything to the other OS instead of living with the added expense and complexity of a heterogenous shop? If VMS can no longer stand on its own, how much longer do you expect it to survive? >> >> >> >> > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they >> > don't switch to Mac) doing that... >> >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? I believe end of the >> era is in sight. > So I guess we should all switch everything to Windows. If you wish. :-) I certainly haven't. > And Outlook is something to brag about? Don't know, never tried it. Probably never will. > This is a selling point? Seems to be for MS. > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? Is this a serious question? There are more MUA's for Unix than I can even count. Everything from Text based to graphical. And then, there are also these things called web browsers that can either access email directly using POP or IMAP or using an interface served up by a web server. > Are office people going to be > running from a Unix prompt? Not likely, that's what seems to be killing VMS the fastest. Lack of an alternative to the DCL prompt combined with deliberatley breaking the text based products. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:38:33 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <3787501e-fef8-407c-99ee-e07b1b6f1e4d@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Mar 15, 1:15 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <53e898bc-8c31-4040-bc98-6042d6790...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.= com>, > AEF writes: > > > > > On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article , > >> Jan-Erik S=F6derholm writes: > > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, > >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthus= iasm! > >> >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or rece= ived > >> >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the ne= ed to > >> >>> do so. > > >> > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last > >> > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. > >> > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so > >> > on, thought... > > >> >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You= > >> >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Inte= resting. > > >> >> bill > > >> > Never using VMS mail. > >> > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? > > >> Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see > >> usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an > >> Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would > >> type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it > >> doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway > >> so it is a non-problem. > > >> > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? > > >> > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-) > > >> OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought > >> we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with > >> VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if > >> you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about > >> how they read their email? > > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? > > Well, how many more pieces of VMS need to become deliberately broken > before you finally give up? My main point was if you have to use > some other OS in order to use VMS, why not just move everything to > the other OS instead of living with the added expense and complexity > of a heterogenous shop? If VMS can no longer stand on its own, how > much longer do you expect it to survive? Here you were concentrating on mail. > > > > >> > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they > >> > don't switch to Mac) doing that... > > >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be > >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the > >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous > >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? I believe end of the > >> era is in sight. > > So I guess we should all switch everything to Windows. > > If you wish. :-) I certainly haven't. > > > And Outlook is something to brag about? > > Don't know, never tried it. Probably never will. > > > This is a selling point? > > Seems to be for MS. > > > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? > > Is this a serious question? There are more MUA's for Unix than I can > even count. Everything from Text based to graphical. And then, there > are also these things called web browsers that can either access email > directly using POP or IMAP or using an interface served up by a web > server. That's FOR Unix. Does Unix offer them? We were talking OSes here. I was just asking and now I ask this: Who makes those MUA's? Anyway, JF Mezei mentioned Netscape/Mozilla on DECwindows. And mail is hardly a must-have for every system. Many lotteries run on VMS. I heard EZPass runs on VMS. Lack of mail is hardly a problem there. > > > Are office people going to be > > running from a Unix prompt? > > Not likely, that's what seems to be killing VMS the fastest. Lack of > an alternative to the DCL prompt combined with deliberatley breaking > the text based products. There's other things besides the world of desktops. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves= > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:41:14 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <1caa8fe5-670c-4f17-881d-06cf9b92850f@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 15, 12:25 am, Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > > This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm! > > Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received > > VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to > > do so. > > I regularly receive email containing URLs with an embedded tilde, > which I have to replace after copy and paste. I've often used the twiddle character (tiled) as the symbol for approximate. It weighs ~ 40 lbs., e.g. It is also the symbol for "is proportional to", IIRC. Rather poor choice for a control character. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:45:25 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <7cefb8c7-3df6-417c-bb5f-f173a58a1d35@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 15, 1:38 pm, AEF wrote: > On Mar 15, 1:15 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > > > > In article <53e898bc-8c31-4040-bc98-6042d6790...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroup= s.com>, > > AEF writes: > > > > On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > >> In article , > > >> Jan-Erik S=F6derholm writes:= > > > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > >> >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, > > >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >> >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enth= usiasm! > > >> >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or re= ceived > > >> >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the = need to > > >> >>> do so. > > > >> > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last > > >> > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. > > >> > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so > > >> > on, thought... > > > >> >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? Y= ou > > >> >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? In= teresting. > > > >> >> bill > > > >> > Never using VMS mail. > > >> > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? > > > >> Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see= > > >> usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an= > > >> Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would= > > >> type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when i= t > > >> doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway= > > >> so it is a non-problem. > > > >> > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it= ? > > > >> > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-)= > > > >> OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought > > >> we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with > > >> VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if= > > >> you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make abou= t > > >> how they read their email? > > > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? > > > Well, how many more pieces of VMS need to become deliberately broken > > before you finally give up? My main point was if you have to use > > some other OS in order to use VMS, why not just move everything to > > the other OS instead of living with the added expense and complexity > > of a heterogenous shop? If VMS can no longer stand on its own, how > > much longer do you expect it to survive? > > Here you were concentrating on mail. > > > > > > > >> > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they > > >> > don't switch to Mac) doing that... > > > >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be > > >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the > > >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous= > > >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? I believe end of the > > >> era is in sight. > > > So I guess we should all switch everything to Windows. > > > If you wish. :-) I certainly haven't. > > > > And Outlook is something to brag about? > > > Don't know, never tried it. Probably never will. > > > > This is a selling point? > > > Seems to be for MS. > > > > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? > > > Is this a serious question? There are more MUA's for Unix than I can > > even count. Everything from Text based to graphical. And then, there > > are also these things called web browsers that can either access email > > directly using POP or IMAP or using an interface served up by a web > > server. > > That's FOR Unix. Does Unix offer them? We were talking OSes here. I > was just asking and now I ask this: Who makes those MUA's? > > Anyway, JF Mezei mentioned Netscape/Mozilla on DECwindows. > > And mail is hardly a must-have for every system. Many lotteries run on > VMS. I heard EZPass runs on VMS. Lack of mail is hardly a problem > there. > > > > > > Are office people going to be > > > running from a Unix prompt? > > > Not likely, that's what seems to be killing VMS the fastest. Lack of > > an alternative to the DCL prompt combined with deliberatley breaking > > the text based products. > > There's other things besides the world of desktops. > > > > > bill > > > -- > > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolv= es > > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > > University of Scranton | > > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > > AEF Oh, belated VMS-sighting: Fortunoff uses VMS for their bridal registry! They have actual VT510's in their stores for customers to register. I swear seeing OpenVMS Alpha or something close to that on the screen maybe 1, 2, or 3 years ago. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:46:46 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <23717190-60ac-41b3-875a-1f69fe662334@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Mar 15, 12:48 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > From: AEF > > > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? > > I haven't used it lately, but years ago, when I had a Sun workstation > at my desk, I used dtmail (one of Sun's contributions to the real CDE, > as I recall). My needs are simple, but it seemed to have a relatively > handy interface, and could deal easily with attachments. > > No one ever bothered to adapt it to VMS for the New Desktop. > (UNIX-like message store, I assume, would complicate the task.) > > > Are office people going to be > > running from a Unix prompt? > > More than will be using VMS, I'd guess. > > > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? > > Which application gets more use than e-mail? From a typical user's > perspective, what's the weakest application on VMS? Funny, it's also possibly the weakest app in Windows! Hey, there's life outside of the desktop world. > > A friend recently sent me a fancy e-mail message, basically a Web > page with HTML and images. I attacked it using the (lame) MIME utility, > which discarded the directory segments of the attachment names. I > managed to sort it out after fiddling with the HTML and/or creating and > populating the directories. On how many other modern systems would I > have needed to waste so much time and effort on what should be a pretty > simple task? > > It's already no good, and then they break it. Amazing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:50:13 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <8c17df06-068d-4158-aa9a-9630855445e0@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Mar 15, 1:15 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <53e898bc-8c31-4040-bc98-6042d6790...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.= com>, > AEF writes: > > > > > On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article , > >> Jan-Erik S=F6derholm writes: > > >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, > >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthus= iasm! > >> >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or rece= ived > >> >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the ne= ed to > >> >>> do so. > > >> > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last > >> > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. > >> > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so > >> > on, thought... > > >> >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You= > >> >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Inte= resting. > > >> >> bill > > >> > Never using VMS mail. > >> > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? > > >> Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see > >> usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an > >> Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would > >> type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it > >> doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway > >> so it is a non-problem. > > >> > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? > > >> > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-) > > >> OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought > >> we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with > >> VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if > >> you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about > >> how they read their email? > > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? > > Well, how many more pieces of VMS need to become deliberately broken > before you finally give up? My main point was if you have to use > some other OS in order to use VMS, why not just move everything to > the other OS instead of living with the added expense and complexity > of a heterogenous shop? If VMS can no longer stand on its own, how > much longer do you expect it to survive? > > > > >> > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they > >> > don't switch to Mac) doing that... > > >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be > >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the > >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous > >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? I believe end of the > >> era is in sight. > > So I guess we should all switch everything to Windows. > > If you wish. :-) I certainly haven't. > > > And Outlook is something to brag about? > > Don't know, never tried it. Probably never will. > > > This is a selling point? > > Seems to be for MS. > > > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? > > Is this a serious question? There are more MUA's for Unix than I can > even count. Everything from Text based to graphical. And then, there > are also these things called web browsers that can either access email > directly using POP or IMAP or using an interface served up by a web > server. So if people wrote some MUA's for VMS, it'd be the same. You bragging about add-ons for Unix but blaming VMS for not itself avoiding the need for the same. Please. AEF > > > Are office people going to be > > running from a Unix prompt? > > Not likely, that's what seems to be killing VMS the fastest. Lack of > an alternative to the DCL prompt combined with deliberatley breaking > the text based products. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves= > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <7954bccd-1e62-4d99-bb8c-e91c908a1b66@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm writes: > > > > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, > >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusias= m! > >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or receive= d > >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need = to > >>> do so. > > > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last > > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. > > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so > > on, thought... > > >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You > >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Interes= ting. > > >> bill > > > Never using VMS mail. > > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? > > Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see > usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an > Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would > type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it > doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway > so it is a non-problem. > > > > > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? > > > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-) > > OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought > we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with > VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if > you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about > how they read their email? > > > > > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they > > don't switch to Mac) doing that... > > So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be > used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the > missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous > installation with less complexity and upkeep? How about all the anti-virus, anti-spamware, etc. people have to add on to Windows? Talk about adding complexity and upkeep! I guess then we should convert everything to Linux, since that's the only OS I'm aware of that in common use for both back-end and front- end (desktop). I believe end of the > era is in sight. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves= > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 2008 19:00:55 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <642kn6F29mh7uU1@mid.individual.net> In article <3787501e-fef8-407c-99ee-e07b1b6f1e4d@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Mar 15, 1:15 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <53e898bc-8c31-4040-bc98-6042d6790...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> >> >> >> > On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> In article , >> >> Jan-Erik Söderholm writes: >> >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, >> >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm! >> >> >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received >> >> >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to >> >> >>> do so. >> >> >> > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last >> >> > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. >> >> > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so >> >> > on, thought... >> >> >> >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You>> >> >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Interesting. >> >> >> >> bill >> >> >> > Never using VMS mail. >> >> > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? >> >> >> Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see >> >> usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an >> >> Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would >> >> type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it >> >> doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway >> >> so it is a non-problem. >> >> >> > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? >> >> >> > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-) >> >> >> OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought >> >> we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with >> >> VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if >> >> you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about >> >> how they read their email? >> > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? >> >> Well, how many more pieces of VMS need to become deliberately broken >> before you finally give up? My main point was if you have to use >> some other OS in order to use VMS, why not just move everything to >> the other OS instead of living with the added expense and complexity >> of a heterogenous shop? If VMS can no longer stand on its own, how >> much longer do you expect it to survive? > Here you were concentrating on mail. >> >> >> >> >> > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they >> >> > don't switch to Mac) doing that... >> >> >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be >> >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the >> >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous >> >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? I believe end of the >> >> era is in sight. >> > So I guess we should all switch everything to Windows. >> >> If you wish. :-) I certainly haven't. >> >> > And Outlook is something to brag about? >> >> Don't know, never tried it. Probably never will. >> >> > This is a selling point? >> >> Seems to be for MS. >> >> > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? >> >> Is this a serious question? There are more MUA's for Unix than I can >> even count. Everything from Text based to graphical. And then, there >> are also these things called web browsers that can either access email >> directly using POP or IMAP or using an interface served up by a web >> server. > That's FOR Unix. Does Unix offer them? Well, there's "mail" or under Berkely "Mail". text based and doesn't change tildes into dollar signs. :-) > We were talking OSes here. I > was just asking and now I ask this: Who makes those MUA's? Unix is and always was a different world than VMS. Long before anyone coined the phrases GNU or OpenSource Unix people wrote and distributed packages intended to enhance the usability of the Unix OS. Most of the MUA's for Unix are free and opensource. Or are you saying you trust a product who's source you have never and will never see over a product where you can not only look at the source, but build your own version from that source so you know it is clean. > Anyway, JF Mezei mentioned Netscape/Mozilla on DECwindows. > And mail is hardly a must-have for every system. Many lotteries run on > VMS. I heard EZPass runs on VMS. Lack of mail is hardly a problem > there. If email wasn't a problem, this discussion would not have created more on topic traffic than this group has seen in a long time. Obviously, to a lot of VMS users, it is a problem. bill >> >> > Are office people going to be >> > running from a Unix prompt? >> >> Not likely, that's what seems to be killing VMS the fastest. Lack of >> an alternative to the DCL prompt combined with deliberatley breaking >> the text based products. > There's other things besides the world of desktops. Maybe so, but there are a hell of a lot more desktop computer users than VMS machines running lotteries or EasyPass. And the number of the first is going up rapdily, how about the second? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 2008 19:16:02 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <642ljiF29rjcaU1@mid.individual.net> In article <8c17df06-068d-4158-aa9a-9630855445e0@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Mar 15, 1:15 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <53e898bc-8c31-4040-bc98-6042d6790...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, >> AEF writes: >> >> >> >> > On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >> In article , >> >> Jan-Erik Söderholm writes: >> >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, >> >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm! >> >> >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received >> >> >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to >> >> >>> do so. >> >> >> > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last >> >> > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. >> >> > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so >> >> > on, thought... >> >> >> >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You>> >> >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Interesting. >> >> >> >> bill >> >> >> > Never using VMS mail. >> >> > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? >> >> >> Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see >> >> usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an >> >> Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would >> >> type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it >> >> doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway >> >> so it is a non-problem. >> >> >> > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? >> >> >> > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-) >> >> >> OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought >> >> we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with >> >> VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if >> >> you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about >> >> how they read their email? >> > For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail? >> >> Well, how many more pieces of VMS need to become deliberately broken >> before you finally give up? My main point was if you have to use >> some other OS in order to use VMS, why not just move everything to >> the other OS instead of living with the added expense and complexity >> of a heterogenous shop? If VMS can no longer stand on its own, how >> much longer do you expect it to survive? >> >> >> >> >> > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they >> >> > don't switch to Mac) doing that... >> >> >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be >> >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the >> >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous >> >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? I believe end of the >> >> era is in sight. >> > So I guess we should all switch everything to Windows. >> >> If you wish. :-) I certainly haven't. >> >> > And Outlook is something to brag about? >> >> Don't know, never tried it. Probably never will. >> >> > This is a selling point? >> >> Seems to be for MS. >> >> > Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? >> >> Is this a serious question? There are more MUA's for Unix than I can >> even count. Everything from Text based to graphical. And then, there >> are also these things called web browsers that can either access email >> directly using POP or IMAP or using an interface served up by a web >> server. > So if people wrote some MUA's for VMS, it'd be the same. Actually, there are. But VMS systems suffer from two problems that affect this. One is the idea that many (most?) VMS system managers won't install it on their systems for reasons I have yet to fathom. (We used to have Pine on the production system here but after a change in Systems managers Pine was removed. No real reason given.) And, the other problem is one people here are well aware of. The obscurity of VMS makes it much less likely that usable tools like Pine or Elm or especially graphical MUA's will see the needed modifications for VMS actually made and almost never folded back into the main source tree meaning the next time a change is made you have to start from an old set of sources and re-patch everything all over again. > You bragging > about add-ons for Unix but blaming VMS for not itself avoiding the > need for the same. Please. AEF I'm not bragging, you asked a questiona and I answered it. It is not my fault that the underlying paradigm of VMS users is so different from that of Unix users that you don't see anything that didn't ship with the original 1970 sources as a part of the OS. Today, when you get the install disks for FreeBSD you get over a dozen different MUA's. All shipped with the actual OS. You can get the sources off the net, but you don't need to. So, VMS comes on about 20 disks. Does that mean the stuff on disk 2 and above are not part of the OS? >> >> > Are office people going to be >> > running from a Unix prompt? >> >> Not likely, that's what seems to be killing VMS the fastest. Lack of >> an alternative to the DCL prompt combined with deliberatley breaking >> the text based products. But then, you must have missed my earlier comments about how many users I had that were still using text based MUA's, particularly Pine and Elm. So, yes, I guess there are office people running from the Unix prompt. And I should probably not bring up at this time the very large mortgage house that is still running PDP-11's and RSTS. Pretty sure they would be running from some command line interface. :-) While most of the world has jumped on the GUI bandwagon, everybody hasn't and some tasks are still best done from a command line. Like adding large numbers of inew Windows users in an Active Directory environment. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 2008 16:03:18 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: In article <23717190-60ac-41b3-875a-1f69fe662334@13g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Mar 15, 12:48 pm, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: >> Which application gets more use than e-mail? From a typical user's >> perspective, what's the weakest application on VMS? > > Funny, it's also possibly the weakest app in Windows! Whereas on Macintosh, the weakest applications are the ones that let you run Windows. That is tautological. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 2008 20:27:15 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <642pp3F29r6cjU1@mid.individual.net> In article <7954bccd-1e62-4d99-bb8c-e91c908a1b66@u72g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> Jan-Erik Söderholm writes: >> >> >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>, >> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm! >> >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received >> >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to >> >>> do so. >> >> > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last >> > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person. >> > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so >> > on, thought... >> >> >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You >> >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Interesting. >> >> >> bill >> >> > Never using VMS mail. >> > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ? >> >> Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see >> usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an >> Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would >> type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it >> doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway >> so it is a non-problem. >> >> >> >> > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? >> >> > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-) >> >> OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought >> we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with >> VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if >> you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about >> how they read their email? >> >> >> >> > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they >> > don't switch to Mac) doing that... >> >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? > How about all the anti-virus, anti-spamware, etc. people have to add > on to Windows? Talk about adding complexity and upkeep! Actually, it doesn't. They integrate seamlessly and keep themselves updated. Unless you just downloaded a bootleg copy, then all bets are off. You guys reall need to get off this "Windows is impossible to maintain" kick. I have labs of Windows boxes and I don't ever have to mess with them and they don't get viruses and they don't crash. You may not want to believe it, but that is reality. And you know what. I could make them even more stable and secure (if that's really possible) but I choose a much less draconian approach than what I have learned to do in other environments. > I guess then we should convert everything to Linux, since that's the > only OS I'm aware of that in common use for both back-end and front- > end (desktop). Sigh, BSD. Been around longer than Linux, more stable, more efficient and available in both Server and Desktop flavors. Or even Solaris, for that matter, but wouldn't be my first choice. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 2008 02:05:20 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. Message-ID: <643divF2a19hiU1@mid.individual.net> In article <13tooph1vjuv874@corp.supernews.com>, "John Wallace" writes: > > "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message > news:642pp3F29r6cjU1@mid.individual.net... > > > >> >> So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be >> >> used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the >> >> missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous >> >> installation with less complexity and upkeep? >> > How about all the anti-virus, anti-spamware, etc. people have to add >> > on to Windows? Talk about adding complexity and upkeep! >> >> Actually, it doesn't. They integrate seamlessly and keep themselves >> updated. Unless you just downloaded a bootleg copy, then all bets >> are off. You guys reall need to get off this "Windows is impossible >> to maintain" kick. I have labs of Windows boxes and I don't ever have >> to mess with them and they don't get viruses and they don't crash. >> You may not want to believe it, but that is reality. And you know what. >> I could make them even more stable and secure (if that's really possible) >> but I choose a much less draconian approach than what I have learned to >> do in other environments. > > > > (note in passing: "missing pieces" in vanilla Windows also includes decent > browser and decent backup tool, and until recently Windows from MS didn't > even include a DVD player - a media-centric desktop OS with no DVD player, > how weird is that? Until recently the hardwre didn't play DVD's, why include a player for a media the hardware didn't support? > Many PC vendors bundled a DVD player to hide that > omission, similarly some CPQ/HP PCs come bundled with backup tools (Acronis, > Veritas?), but they're not a standard part of the OS) How many desktop users ever backup their systems in the first place? Of all the faculty in my department, only two that I know of and one just started that recently. Both of them use Ghost to save a full image rather than the traditional backup. > > Bill, you (and your colleagues??) I have colleagues in my one job, but not in my day job. :-) > may be sufficiently competent and > motivated to run a clean Windows shop, but my experience of many places I've > worked at or visited over many years, mostly folks who would consider > themselves "business class" outfits, says you must be in a tiny tiny tiny > minority. Guess it depends on how you define a "minority". My second job and the one that uses the more draconian approach is the DOD. I think they probably consider themselves "business class" and they are certainly not tiny. :-) > And I suspect that's the experience of many others too. So tell me, do any of these places allow the users of the machine to install anything? Do the users have the ability to install anything? That's the very first thing that has to go if you want a safe and stable Windows environment. You would be amazed at how many problems this one change makes. Totally eliminates conversations like: User: My PC keeps freezing up. Techie: What have you installed on it lately? User: Nothing. It just started freezing up repatedly since lunchtime. Techie: Where did the screensaver with the pictures of the Grand Canyon come from? User: A friend emailed it to me to me this morning. Techie: I thought you didn't install anything. User: I didn't, it's just a screensaver. > > And if you're letting Windows Update do its own thing without intervention, > as you seem to be advocating, I'm not quite sure how you manage to be > trouble-free on the occasions when MS do seriously screw up a patch. Unless > you're just incredibly lucky, you've either already been caught out or you > will get caught out one day. Unmanaged Windows Update is not a setup the "PC > professionals" would recommend (and it's not one I use at home either). In the one job I let it do criticals overnoght. Only problem I seem to have is that some machines get them one day and some don't get them for several more days. Never had a problem. being as I don't think MS pushes them out as fast as soem people think, I would expect just as likely a chance of trashing a system doing them manually. After all, you are still trusting that the patch will actually do what the explanation says, and nothing more. On my second job (the more draconian one) all the patches are tested by a central authority and then pushed down to the users machines. Same caveat, though. Just becaue it worked in testing doesn't mean it won't cause a problem later. It still comes down to trusting MS. All I can really say is that I run labs in an environment where a large number of the PC's I don't manage are infected with all kinds of crap. None of it get's to my machines. The last trojan we had was a keyboard sniffer put on a machine in the lab by a student. That was when we were still running Windows98. Since then we have gone through NT (3.51 and 4.0), Win2K and now XP without a single virus or any reports by the users of instability or BSOD's. this is aal done by a comprehensive program of Workstation Security, Network Security and just plain common sense. And it is an ongoing process. I just recently (in the past two weeks) totally reconfigured the network the labs run on to make it even less likely that they will be attacked, much less infected, by a machine from the outside. It can be done with Windows, it can be done with Unix, it can be done with pretty much any computer system. But not when you spend all your time saying it can't be done. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.151 ************************