INFO-VAX Tue, 13 May 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 267 Contents: Re: 2007 OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Awards Re: 2007 OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Awards ES40 Users read this Re: Help: VMS DECwindows Guide to Applications Programming Re: Help: VMS DECwindows Guide to Applications Programming Re: HP wants to buy EDS Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS RE: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS PDS (60Hz) H7224 Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Re: UK based OpenVMS roles Re: What systems can use USB? Re: What systems can use USB? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 03:00:33 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: 2007 OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Awards Message-ID: Specific people can not be nominated - its for companies. The categories are fixed this time around. Island Co could fit in Services & Consulting ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:11:58 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: 2007 OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Awards Message-ID: <8f89b3e6-6b84-4b29-92a9-f5e96f0ebc59@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> The nominations have started to trickle in but lots more are wanted :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:06:30 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: ES40 Users read this Message-ID: Upgrade your ES40 Model 1 or Model 2 to an ES45 1Ghz system starting at only $2500 Call us to find out how... -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 2008 08:47:00 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Help: VMS DECwindows Guide to Applications Programming Message-ID: In article <4828ea0a$0$31177$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > Did VMS go directly from VWS to DECWINDOWS-MOTIF, or was there an > intermediate step that had decwindows without Motif ? VWS was pre-X11 and Motif was not the first style of X11 implemented as DECWindows. Yes, there was something in between. I used it and developed code to it (but I no longer have documentation for it). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 06:39:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Larry Subject: Re: Help: VMS DECwindows Guide to Applications Programming Message-ID: Hello Steven, Thank you again for your help. I can not find the ident number of the document now. I checked my VMS5.4-2, there are some DECW$* files in SYS$System directory. I think at that time Motif was not released yet. VMS 5.4-2 has something like Motif to make user interface. I found a web based document VMS DECWINDOWS MOTIF (R) APPLICATIONS GUIDE [V1.2] from HP. I'm reading it and I think some basic conceptions are still same. Thanks all of you for your information. Have a good day. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:45:51 +0100 From: "David Biddulph" Subject: Re: HP wants to buy EDS Message-ID: <4829b3a3$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net> "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:482922ab$0$12281$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > HP stock dropped by almost 5% on the news that HP wants to buy the > consulting firm EDS. The depressed EDS stock got boosted by 27%. > > This would boost HP's service division, but wouldn't steal customers > from IBM. > > > 12 billion is the rumoured price tag. > > EDS web site has a single mention of VMS. It is in some proprietary Word > document that lists operatings systems including VMS, DOS, Novell, Sun > OS, SCO Unix, Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, OS2 and a few other legacy > stuff. The document is dated 2002 when looking inside the binary MS Word > blob. (emails point to earthlink accounts as well as "Rick Hemsing" > who is the sender. > > Would you trust a consulting firm that publishes Microsoft WORD > documents on its web site without having first removed > internal references to private emails ? > > Anyways, we all know this will have little to no impact on VMS, except > make VMS an even smaller grain of sand on the HP beach. VMS is also mentioned at http://www.swep-eds.com/VMS/VMS%20services.htm, however. -- David Biddulph ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 02:45:57 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Message-ID: <81fdfb28-0c31-40bc-828d-37adfa3da5f9@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> there are still some VMS people hanging on in EDS :-) What this takeover would mean I know now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 04:51:28 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Message-ID: <617360ea-8f1d-4fd8-ae25-c423e57b1b1e@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> It's a done deal apparently http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/080513/20080513005767.html?.v=1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:06:54 -0400 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: RE: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Message-ID: <01c401c8b502$99a37e90$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP> >... > And no, EDS doesn't exactly have the brightest - heck, I worked > there, > so game - set - match - point proven. I remember Powerpoint > presentations given on white walls with yellow text, people > complaining about faxes coming in upside down (I used to joke > "well, > then turn them over!"), etc. It was a hoot working with such a > bunch > of losers... I still have a friend there - the account in > Atlanta went >... At one time I was subcontracting at a company which outsourced to EDS. During the transition period one of the really good network people (who had a strong VMS background) was afraid that EDS was going to parachute in a bunch of high-quality people. A few months after the transition was complete his favourite phrase became "I'm still waiting to be impressed." After he took an early retirement a few other people adopted the phrase too. EDS is made of people who were absorbed from outsourced IT departments. Companies do not sit down one day and say "We have a top notch IT department, why don't we outsource them to EDS?" They sit down and say "We have problems with IT, we should see if EDS can fix the problems." The people who were part of the problem keep doing what they were doing except now they are working for EDS. Of course the VMS team (and a few of the other people) at this particular site were the baby that got thrown out with the bath water. During my time subcontracting to EDS we were often told that the direction from senior management was to eliminate VMS whenever possible. VMS required special training, but EDS wants to be able to bring people in from off the street to manage their systems. It should be interesting to see what (if anything) changes now. Peter Weaver www.WeaverConsulting.ca www.OpenVMSvirtualization.com www.VAXvirtualization.com www.AlphaVirtualization.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 07:15:45 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Message-ID: <053833d3-6522-4687-8498-de533e5e752d@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> It will be interesting. There are pockets of VMS people in EDS (USA, NL, UK, AU, NZ). There are these people http://www.swep-eds.com who are not dead yet. I hope this will mean that getting EDS customers off VMS will be less activity pursued and HP hardware will be allowed. I don't expect much to change until next year. The reaction of Sun and Dell will be interesting too (the agility alliance). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:00:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "zzbunker@netscape.net" Subject: Re: OT: HP wants to buy EDS Message-ID: <22ce4ab8-f0ca-479e-a805-69a767007d0f@24g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 13, 10:06=A0am, "Peter Weaver" wrote: > >... > > And no, EDS doesn't exactly have the brightest - heck, I worked > > there, > > so game - set - match - point proven. I remember Powerpoint > > presentations given on white walls with yellow text, people > > complaining about faxes coming in upside down (I used to joke > > "well, > > then turn them over!"), etc. It was a hoot working with such a > > bunch > > of losers... I still have a friend there - the account in > > Atlanta went > >... > > At one time I was subcontracting at a company which outsourced to > EDS. During the transition period one of the really good network > people (who had a strong VMS background) was afraid that EDS was > going to parachute in a bunch of high-quality people. A few > months after the transition was complete his favourite phrase > became "I'm still waiting to be impressed." After he took an > early retirement a few other people adopted the phrase too. > > EDS is made of people who were absorbed from outsourced IT > departments. Companies do not sit down one day and say "We have a > top notch IT department, why don't we outsource them to EDS?" > They sit down and say "We have problems with IT, we should see if > EDS can fix the problems." The people who were part of the > problem keep doing what they were doing except now they are > working for EDS. Of course the VMS team (and a few of the other > people) at this particular site were the baby that got thrown out > with the bath water. > > During my time subcontracting to EDS we were often told that the > direction from senior management was to eliminate VMS whenever > possible. VMS required special training, but EDS wants to be able > to bring people in from off the street to manage their systems. > > It should be interesting to see what (if anything) changes now. A lot will change, but slowly. Since people mostly started making stuff like encrypted harddisks and USB, mostly because of idiot off-the-street e-mail companies like EDS. > > Peter Weaverwww.WeaverConsulting.ca=A0 =A0www.OpenVMSvirtualization.comwww= .VAXvirtualization.com=A0www.AlphaVirtualization.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 06:48:37 -0700 (PDT) From: russ.leathe@gmail.com Subject: PDS (60Hz) H7224 Message-ID: Believe it or not we have a PDS H7224 that is looking for a good home. Anyone need one? :^) Russ Leathe Gordon College russ@gordon.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:16:57 +0100 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: > How did you do that ? I have Exceed 2006. What are the config steps > for using this in XConfig? Bring up the Exceed configuration program, and select Mouse Input. Select "Wheel movement invokes macro" and click on Macro Bindings. Create new Macros for wheel up and wheel down. Click on Record to record the input sequence for each. The keys are CTRL/Up-Arrow & CTRL/Down-Arrow. --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 08 13:29:20 EDT From: cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Mon, 12 May 2008 06:11:09 -0700, George Cook > wrote: > >> As far as images sent as attachments, Xv or Mosaic can display just >> about any image. PMDF Mail will spawn the right viewer if requested. > > What do you use to create pdf documents? From a spread sheets, from > Autocad > or types of documents often presented in pdf? I have never even once had the need, much less the desire, to create a pdf document. I am not a documentation writer. I never use spreadsheets nor Autocad or anything else which might produce pdf output. The couple times in my life where someone has sent me a spreadsheet, it was simple enough to ask my co-worker to view or print it. I have never had the need to modify one nor ever expect to. I use only what I need, not what others or giant corporations tell me I need to use. My VMS workstations do what I need at least 99.98% of the time. I used to use the old Mac in my office to produce Postscript from pdf, but stopped once Xpdf became good enough. Others have other needs and should use what meets those needs. Unfortunately, most PC users I know spend what appear to be endless hours fiddling with their PC software instead of producing actual work. I know how addictive that can be because I spent several months of spare time just configuring the OS on my old "Classic" Macs. If I recall correctly, I added nearly a hundred third party extensions and layered software packages, multiple browsers and media players, etc. Many hours were spent making everything play nice together. It was a lot of fun, but otherwise mostly a complete waste of time. I still fire the one up at work every few months just so it can update its virus software. Then there is the issue of the constant need for PC hardware upgrades to run all the bloatware PC users "need" to use. George Cook WVNET ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 2008 13:41:38 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > What do you use to create pdf documents? LaTex. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 10:46:44 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Message-ID: Hi. The docs are not 100% clear on this... Does TFF (Terminal Fallback facility) support telnet (TNAnnnn) devices as "terminals" ? I get : %TFF-E-NOSUCHTERM, No such terminal or fallback not supported on specified terminal LAT (LTAnnnn) ports/devices seems to work just fine... The docs does say that : "Note that you can use TFF only from local terminals; you cannot use terminal fallback on a remote terminal (RTAx)..." Maybe that includes TNA terminals... ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 2008 13:56:59 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Message-ID: <48299e2b$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >The docs are not 100% clear on this... Not only the docs. TFF seems a little bit out of order at all. eg. Why is there a SYS$STARTUP:TFF$SYSTARTUP.COM, but no TFF$STARTUP.COM (and why is it not platform independant)? >Does TFF (Terminal Fallback facility) support >telnet (TNAnnnn) devices as "terminals" ? Don't know. I never used TFF >I get : > >%TFF-E-NOSUCHTERM, No such terminal or fallback > not supported on specified terminal What is the command? >LAT (LTAnnnn) ports/devices seems to work just fine... Do you have virtual terminals enabled? Do you have a SET TERMINAL/FALLBACK done? >The docs does say that : > >"Note that you can use TFF only from local terminals; > you cannot use terminal fallback on a remote > terminal (RTAx)..." > >Maybe that includes TNA terminals... What IP stack? UCX/TCPIP? TCPware? Multinet? Have you also tried a FTA (SSH, X11 term) device? just my 0.02 -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 12:16:10 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Message-ID: Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >> The docs are not 100% clear on this... > > Not only the docs. TFF seems a little bit out of order at all. > eg. Why is there a SYS$STARTUP:TFF$SYSTARTUP.COM, but no TFF$STARTUP.COM > (and why is it not platform independant)? > >> Does TFF (Terminal Fallback facility) support >> telnet (TNAnnnn) devices as "terminals" ? > > Don't know. I never used TFF > >> I get : >> >> %TFF-E-NOSUCHTERM, No such terminal or fallback >> not supported on specified terminal > > What is the command? Sorry... ---- Using a Telnet port/device: $ sh dev tna305: Device Device Error Name Status Count TNA305: Online 0 $ $ mc tfu OpenVMS Terminal Fallback Facility (TFF) TFU> set term/fall tna305: %TFF-E-NOSUCHTERM, No such terminal or fallback not supported on specified terminal ---- Using a LAT port/device: $ sh dev lta23: Device Device Error Name Status Count LTA23: Online 0 $ mc tfu OpenVMS Terminal Fallback Facility (TFF) TFU> set term/fall lta23: TFU> sh term lta23: TFF status for physical terminal _LTA23: Active tables: SWEDISH_D47 (fallback) LATIN_1 (compose sequence validation) Autocompose-keys (parenthesized values are character's decimal value): None Setable flags: NoSuspend, Noaccept_8bit, Soft_compose, Signal, NoGR_terminal Internal state flags: Reset_pnd TFU> TFU> Exit $ sh dev lta32: %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available $ sh dev lta323: %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available > >> LAT (LTAnnnn) ports/devices seems to work just fine... > > Do you have virtual terminals enabled? > Do you have a SET TERMINAL/FALLBACK done? > >> The docs does say that : >> >> "Note that you can use TFF only from local terminals; >> you cannot use terminal fallback on a remote >> terminal (RTAx)..." >> >> Maybe that includes TNA terminals... > > What IP stack? UCX/TCPIP? TCPware? Multinet? $ tcpip sh ver HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.6 - ECO 2 on an AlphaStation XP900 466 MHz running OpenVMS V8.2 $ > > Have you also tried a FTA (SSH, X11 term) device? Nop. > > just my 0.02 > Highly valued ! :-) Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 2008 13:27:55 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Message-ID: <4829975b$0$11618$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >Hi. >The docs are not 100% clear on this... > >Does TFF (Terminal Fallback facility) support >telnet (TNAnnnn) devices as "terminals" ? > >I get : > >%TFF-E-NOSUCHTERM, No such terminal or fallback > not supported on specified terminal > >LAT (LTAnnnn) ports/devices seems to work just fine... > > >The docs does say that : > >"Note that you can use TFF only from local terminals; > you cannot use terminal fallback on a remote > terminal (RTAx)..." > >Maybe that includes TNA terminals... The TFF can not be used on terminals with the DEV$M_RTT characteristic set. If you hop into SDA and issue SHOW DEVICE TNAn, you will see this: I/O data structures ------------------- TNA6 VT300_Series UCB: 81D2FCC0 Device status: 00000110 online,bsy Characteristics: 0C040007 rec,ccl,trm,avl,idv,odv 00400204 rtt,nnm,noclu SUD Status 00000000 Owner UIC [000200,000200] Operation count 60 ORB address 819A3900 PID 000B022B Error count 0 DDB address 818DC0C0 Class/Type 42/70 Reference count 2 DDT address 86561620 Def. buf. size 80 BOFF 00001080 SUD address 81A82580 DEVDEPEND 180091B0 Byte count 00001000 CRB address 818DC140 DEVDEPND2 FB501004 SVAPTE 81D53EC0 IRP address 81BE28C0 DEVDEPND3 00000002 DEVSTS 00000001 Fork PC 8117E510 FLCK index 3A I/O wait queue 81D2FD2C DLCK address 810B7F00 Does this preclude TNA devices from TFF? No. I just patched away the RTT bit and I was able to use $ MCR TFU SET TERMINAL/FALLBACK TNA6 $ ANALYZE/SYSTEM ... SDA> READ SYSDEF SDA> SHOW DEVICE TNA6 ... SDA> EVALUATE UCB+UCB$L_DEVCHAR2 Hex = FFFFFFFF.81D2FD0C Decimal = -2116879092 UCB+0004C SDA> SPAWN RUN SYS$SHARE:DELTA OpenVMS Alpha DELTA Debugger Exit 00000001 800725F4! LDQ R28,#X0008(SP) 1;m <== enter this 00000001 00010001:FFFFFFFF81D2FD0C/ <== enter this 00400204 00400200 <== enter this exit <== enter this SDA> The RTT bit is now history on this terminal. You can used TFU on it now. A simple $CMKRNL hack can easily ZAP the UCB$L_DEVCHAR2[DEV$V_RTT] bit if you intend to use TFU on these terminals. Note that changing the RTT bit may have certain security implications but since you'll probably have this occur _after_ login, it may be moot. I'd look into this further but I don't have the time right now to do so. FWIW, I do this often when I format TNA devices in SDA. It makes the for- mat more like a local terminal. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 13 May 2008 15:41:59 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Message-ID: <4829b6c7$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: >> What is the command? > >$ sh dev tna305: > >Device Device Error > Name Status Count >TNA305: Online 0 >$ >$ mc tfu >OpenVMS Terminal Fallback Facility (TFF) >TFU> set term/fall tna305: >%TFF-E-NOSUCHTERM, No such terminal or fallback not >supported on specified terminal What is the difference between $ SET TERM/FALL TNA305: and TFU> SET TERM/FALL TNA305: Is the first the command to enable the second? -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:18:20 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: TFF on TNA "terminals" ? Message-ID: Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote: > What is the difference between > > $ SET TERM/FALL TNA305: > and > TFU> SET TERM/FALL TNA305: > > Is the first the command to enable the second? > From the TTF manual : "You can use the Terminal Fallback Facility by entering Terminal Fallback Utility (TFU) commands, described in this manual. The TFU supersedes the function of the VMS Version 4.x DCL command SET TERMINAL/FALLBACK" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 03:19:16 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: UK based OpenVMS roles Message-ID: <4b25b5a5-6fd7-436b-8199-cb62eb62eebd@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> I wonder which company this is? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 07:00:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "zzbunker@netscape.net" Subject: Re: What systems can use USB? Message-ID: On May 10, 10:48=A0pm, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > John Wallace wrote: > > "FredK" wrote in message > >news:fvqmtf$6ao$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > >> The "desktop" wars ended years ago. =A0Windows won. =A0The UNIX worksta= tion > >> market collapsed. =A0As a consolation prize, Linux PC's are available f= or > >> those who crave a UNIX desktop. > > > Two years ago, few people would have disagreed with you that Windows won= . > > Times can change though. > > > In particular the much-delayed arrival of Vista (and the associated Offi= ce > > "upgrades") changes things. Vista's "success" in the market (no one sens= ible > > buys it unless they have to) shows that even Microsoft's monopoly isn't > > necessarily forever. No sensible and informed person chooses to buy it > > retail. Many folks are force-fed Vista on new PCs, but some major PC ven= dors > > are still offering routes to Windows XP either discreetly or blatantly, > > depending on how Microsoft-dependent they are, and in the corporate worl= d, > > any pre-loaded Vista is often immediately overwritten with the local > > standard image of XP or in some cases Win2K, and there's no corporate pl= an > > to upgrade the installed base to Vista. > > > Even MS's Ballmer has said that they'd be crazy not to extend the life o= f XP > > if customers preferred it to Vista. The MS spin machine went into full > > denial mode immediately afterwards, but the damage had been done. E.g. > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/24/xp_ballmer_customer_demand/ > > > There's going to be a lot of Windows out there for the foreseeable futur= e, > > but probably less in % terms than they're used to. > > That is mostly wishful thinking from people that does not like MS. > > It is true that a lot of people and companies are discussing when to > go to Vista or whether they should skip Vista and go directly to > Windows 7. > > The number switching to Linux and MacOS X is still relative small. > > Vista is not selling as good as it should. But the ambition level > is rather high. Vista is still selling more licenses in one week > than VMS done ever and in a few months more than the combined > number of Linux and MacOS X. But that is only because Intel is selling more chips than ever, not because Microsoft makes either computers, networks, Google, Lasers, Robots, A.I. or Satellites. > > Vista got a lot of criticism. But if you look into it, then a big > portion of it comes from non-Windows users. And that does not really > tell much. > > Arne- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 09:53:55 -0700 (PDT) From: johnwallace4@gmail.com Subject: Re: What systems can use USB? Message-ID: <5bbed5ba-7827-43df-8135-08f565e56e80@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com> On May 11, 3:48 am, Arne Vajh=F8j wrote: > John Wallace wrote: > > "FredK" wrote in message > >news:fvqmtf$6ao$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com... > >> The "desktop" wars ended years ago. Windows won. The UNIX workstation= > >> market collapsed. As a consolation prize, Linux PC's are available for= > >> those who crave a UNIX desktop. > > > Two years ago, few people would have disagreed with you that Windows won= . > > Times can change though. > > > In particular the much-delayed arrival of Vista (and the associated Offi= ce > > "upgrades") changes things. Vista's "success" in the market (no one sens= ible > > buys it unless they have to) shows that even Microsoft's monopoly isn't > > necessarily forever. No sensible and informed person chooses to buy it > > retail. Many folks are force-fed Vista on new PCs, but some major PC ven= dors > > are still offering routes to Windows XP either discreetly or blatantly, > > depending on how Microsoft-dependent they are, and in the corporate worl= d, > > any pre-loaded Vista is often immediately overwritten with the local > > standard image of XP or in some cases Win2K, and there's no corporate pl= an > > to upgrade the installed base to Vista. > > > Even MS's Ballmer has said that they'd be crazy not to extend the life o= f XP > > if customers preferred it to Vista. The MS spin machine went into full > > denial mode immediately afterwards, but the damage had been done. E.g. > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/24/xp_ballmer_customer_demand/ > > > There's going to be a lot of Windows out there for the foreseeable futur= e, > > but probably less in % terms than they're used to. > > That is mostly wishful thinking from people that does not like MS. When you've got a almost-100% monopoly of the desktop, as Microsoft have had for the last decade or more, the only way to go in market share terms is down, which is made easier by increasingly credible alternatives from the likes of Macintosh and Ubuntu. Whether you or I like it or not is irrelevant, that's simply the way the numbers work. > > It is true that a lot of people and companies are discussing when to > go to Vista or whether they should skip Vista and go directly to > Windows 7. > > The number switching to Linux and MacOS X is still relative small. Indeed the Linux and Mac market share is still small. But their share is bigger than it has been, and therefore Microsoft's share is smaller. The reasons aren't hard to see, for anyone who is willing to see them. > > Vista is not selling as good as it should. But the ambition level > is rather high. Vista is still selling more licenses in one week > than VMS done ever and in a few months more than the combined > number of Linux and MacOS X. How many people are actually *choosing* to buy Vista (eg Vista retail upgrades, or Vista as a corporate desktop choice)? I suspect it's negligible compared with the number of Vista licences being "sold" with new PCs, which occurs for the simple reason that doing so allows PC builders to get best Windows prices from MS. To get best Windows pricing from MS, big PC builders (Dell, HP, etc) have to pay for a Windows licence on *every* PC they sell, and the Windows MS want them to ship today is Vista, so that's what buyers are force-fed. > > Vista got a lot of criticism. But if you look into it, then a big > portion of it comes from non-Windows users. And that does not really > tell much. > And some of the "Vista, for everything, everywhere, now. Because Microsoft can do no wrong." input comes from Microsoft-dependent people inside *and* outside MS (certified professionals, trainers, desktop outsourcers, etc). So? Just because someone's not a full time Windows Vista user doesn't necessarily mean they don't know anything about Vista, surely? At home my Windows of choice is still Win2K unless there's a particular need for the DRM stuff in XP (typically legit TV downloads). At work there's a mixture of Win2K and XP (locally, still more 2K than XP, for now, though for a while I've been one of the ones with XP). Some of my neighbours look to me for PC help, and some of them have XP, and some of them have Vista (because they were force-fed Vista on new PCs). So I'm not a full time Vista user, but nor am I unqualified to make independent comment. Anyway, is Ballmer right when he says (paraphrased) "if customers prefer to stay with XP we should not discourage them yet", or is Ballmer wrong? 2p John ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.267 ************************