INFO-VAX Sun, 18 May 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 277 Contents: Re: OT: lost Re: OT: lost Re: OT: lost Re: OT: lost Re: OT: lost Re: VMS equivalent of Unix su (was Account creation) Re: Volume sets - yes, they can be very useful. Re: Volume sets - yes, they can be very useful. Re: Volume sets - yes, they can be very useful. You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 04:19:02 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: OT: lost Message-ID: On May 15, 6:30 pm, IanMiller wrote: > I had hoped to see you in Nashua this year. I thought they where > getting the black stuff in just for you :-) > > I will have a Guinness in the granite bar just for you. I had a Guinness in the Granite Bar last night but its pouring far too slowly and the bar person gave up after dispensing a few so I did not get a second :-( . Apparently the previous keg was OK so guess there has been a 'technical hitch' somewhere. What we need is someone here who knows how to deal with this stuff. ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2008 12:21:36 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: lost Message-ID: <48301f50$0$25040$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <8660a3a10805172111lbb283ffu53a928681afc50dc@mail.gmail.com>, "William Webb" writes: >On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 1:30 PM, IanMiller wrote: >> I had hoped to see you in Nashua this year. I thought they where >> getting the black stuff in just for you :-) >> >> I will have a Guinness in the granite bar just for you. >> >> > >Brian, > >Tried emailing you personally and your provider apparently doesn't >care for email from Gmail. > >I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. > >I am also sorry that I won't get to meet you at bootcamp this year. > >Ian got here today, and I will join him in raising a glass to both you >and the friend you have lost. > >Best regards, > >WWWebb I've banned nearly all of the disposable email providers: hotmail, gmail, etc. The amount of SPAM being rejected daily is excruciatingly painful to my T1 bandwidth. I will search my SPAM rejection logs for your email and put it on the whitelist. I am sorry too. When DECUS was still alive, I missed very few. I sent myself to nearly every DECUS I ever attended. Bootcamp had become, for me, the subrogate for DECUS. However, I just can't afford bootcamp at the present time. Ask Sue to fill you in. She's well aware of what/who is bleeding me dry financially. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2008 12:44:40 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: lost Message-ID: <483024b7$0$25040$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article , IanMiller writes: >On May 15, 6:30 pm, IanMiller wrote: >> I had hoped to see you in Nashua this year. I thought they where >> getting the black stuff in just for you :-) >> >> I will have a Guinness in the granite bar just for you. > >I had a Guinness in the Granite Bar last night but its pouring far too >slowly and the bar person gave up after dispensing a few so I did not >get a second :-( >.. Apparently the previous keg was OK so guess there has been a >'technical hitch' somewhere. What we need is someone here who knows >how to deal with this stuff. WHAT?? There's Guinness on draught now? Last time in Nashua, Guinness was the brewed by Labatt's of Canada bottled variety. To properly pump a pint requires some knowledge of the environment such as: an accurate temperature reading and accurate gas mixture pressures at the manifold. If it's pouring too slow, the pressure of the N2 push may be too low or the lines are dirty. Just a little beerstone in the lines can cause a slowdown because of fluid dynamic friction along the beer line. Also, if the Guinness isn't often poured, the restrictor may be gummed up or clogged. Unscrew the black tip of the pump handle faucet and clean out the build up (warm/hot water only). There will me a small number that is stamped into the restrictor plate (typically 30) which is the pres- sure that is needed to force the Guinness through the restrictor. At proper storage temp, the CO2 should be between 6-8 PSI and the remain- der of the pressure supplied by the N2 push to total 30 PSI. If the beer line is long, there is a need for extra pressure because of line restriction losses. There are various rules of thumb but I usually go with .5 PSI per foot after 6 ft of beer line. Never increase the CO2. CO2 is readily dissolved into solution when the solution is cold and under pressure. Increasing the CO2 would cause too much carbonation to the Guinness. N2, on the otherhand, does not readily dissolve into solution and is the ideal "work" gas. (Basic chemisty PV=nRT). If a "stout" mix is used (typically a gas mixture of 75% N2/25% CO2), it can't be avoided that the Guinness will be over carbonated. In this case, the best bet is to change the spout restrictor for a lower PSI rated restrictor. I do wish that I were there to fix this problem personally. ;) Maybe next year. :( -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:39:21 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: OT: lost Message-ID: <48303F99.9080006@comcast.net> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , IanMiller writes: > >> .. Apparently the previous keg was OK so guess there has been a >> 'technical hitch' somewhere. What we need is someone here who knows >> how to deal with this stuff. > > WHAT?? There's Guinness on draught now? Last time in Nashua, Guinness > was the brewed by Labatt's of Canada bottled variety. To properly pump > a pint requires some knowledge of the environment such as: an accurate > temperature reading and accurate gas mixture pressures at the manifold. > If it's pouring too slow, the pressure of the N2 push may be too low or > the lines are dirty. Just a little beerstone in the lines can cause a > slowdown because of fluid dynamic friction along the beer line. Also, > if the Guinness isn't often poured, the restrictor may be gummed up or > clogged. Unscrew the black tip of the pump handle faucet and clean out > the build up (warm/hot water only). There will me a small number that > is stamped into the restrictor plate (typically 30) which is the pres- > sure that is needed to force the Guinness through the restrictor. At > proper storage temp, the CO2 should be between 6-8 PSI and the remain- > der of the pressure supplied by the N2 push to total 30 PSI. If the > beer line is long, there is a need for extra pressure because of line > restriction losses. There are various rules of thumb but I usually go > with .5 PSI per foot after 6 ft of beer line. Never increase the CO2. > CO2 is readily dissolved into solution when the solution is cold and > under pressure. Increasing the CO2 would cause too much carbonation > to the Guinness. N2, on the otherhand, does not readily dissolve into > solution and is the ideal "work" gas. (Basic chemisty PV=nRT). If > a "stout" mix is used (typically a gas mixture of 75% N2/25% CO2), it > can't be avoided that the Guinness will be over carbonated. In this > case, the best bet is to change the spout restrictor for a lower PSI > rated restrictor. Or you could just use VMS to regulate/fix all of the above issues. :-) ------------------------------ Date: 18 May 2008 17:26:16 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: lost Message-ID: <483066b8$0$25049$607ed4bc@cv.net> In article <48303F99.9080006@comcast.net>, bradhamilton writes: >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article , IanMiller writes: >> >>> .. Apparently the previous keg was OK so guess there has been a >>> 'technical hitch' somewhere. What we need is someone here who knows >>> how to deal with this stuff. >> >> WHAT?? There's Guinness on draught now? Last time in Nashua, Guinness >> was the brewed by Labatt's of Canada bottled variety. To properly pump >> a pint requires some knowledge of the environment such as: an accurate >> temperature reading and accurate gas mixture pressures at the manifold. >> If it's pouring too slow, the pressure of the N2 push may be too low or >> the lines are dirty. Just a little beerstone in the lines can cause a >> slowdown because of fluid dynamic friction along the beer line. Also, >> if the Guinness isn't often poured, the restrictor may be gummed up or >> clogged. Unscrew the black tip of the pump handle faucet and clean out >> the build up (warm/hot water only). There will me a small number that >> is stamped into the restrictor plate (typically 30) which is the pres- >> sure that is needed to force the Guinness through the restrictor. At >> proper storage temp, the CO2 should be between 6-8 PSI and the remain- >> der of the pressure supplied by the N2 push to total 30 PSI. If the >> beer line is long, there is a need for extra pressure because of line >> restriction losses. There are various rules of thumb but I usually go >> with .5 PSI per foot after 6 ft of beer line. Never increase the CO2. >> CO2 is readily dissolved into solution when the solution is cold and >> under pressure. Increasing the CO2 would cause too much carbonation >> to the Guinness. N2, on the otherhand, does not readily dissolve into >> solution and is the ideal "work" gas. (Basic chemisty PV=nRT). If >> a "stout" mix is used (typically a gas mixture of 75% N2/25% CO2), it >> can't be avoided that the Guinness will be over carbonated. In this >> case, the best bet is to change the spout restrictor for a lower PSI >> rated restrictor. > >Or you could just use VMS to regulate/fix all of the above issues. :-) The OS isn't the issue nor the application; it's the costly digital pressure guages, digital thermometers, digital control values and digital scales. What I'd like to see if VMS lugging the new Guinness can down the stairs and cleaning the lines of beerstone with Na5P3O10 (sodium triphosphate). -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 08:15:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Eckert Subject: Re: VMS equivalent of Unix su (was Account creation) Message-ID: <82b3a9c3-3f0e-4194-b135-43d52f03f935@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> On May 17, 2:02=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > You are quite right. =A0Contrary to what has become the popular meaning > promoted by Linux weenies, it is not the "SuperUser" command but actually > the "SwitchUser" command. > In all fairness to the Linux folks, 'su' was not uncommonly referred to as the 'superuser' command, at least in some circles, back in the late 70s/early 80s when I was first exposed to Unix. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:16:29 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: Volume sets - yes, they can be very useful. Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > [...snip...] > > That should be "shadow set", not "volume set". A volume set is a > different beast. (Yes, volume sets can be combined with shadow sets. > In general, in these days of big disks, no-one needs volume sets > anymore.) Maybe in general, you're right. But at one of my customers, we're into volume sets in a big way. Like, 15 x 300 Gbyte disk volume sets. In another compute farm of 12 DS15's, each with a 2 x 300 Gbyte disk volume set. We can drive these farm members at 100% CPU, reading from one member, while simultaneously downloading a ca. 200 Gbyte file (typical size) to the second member (yoyo-style). The only time these systems are ever idle is Monday mornings, since the daily "traffic" files for analysis are smaller at weekends (you can guess what business this is in). If these downloads are to the same disk as the one with the current analysis, we become (severely!) limited by disk-head bouncing back and forth. Volume sets are an absolutely perfect solution for this. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 03:50:01 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Volume sets - yes, they can be very useful. Message-ID: On May 18, 11:16 am, "R.A.Omond" wrote: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > > [...snip...] > > > That should be "shadow set", not "volume set". A volume set is a > > different beast. (Yes, volume sets can be combined with shadow sets. > > In general, in these days of big disks, no-one needs volume sets > > anymore.) > > Maybe in general, you're right. But at one of my customers, > we're into volume sets in a big way. > > Like, 15 x 300 Gbyte disk volume sets. > > In another compute farm of 12 DS15's, each with a 2 x 300 Gbyte > disk volume set. We can drive these farm members at 100% CPU, > reading from one member, while simultaneously downloading a ca. > 200 Gbyte file (typical size) to the second member (yoyo-style). > The only time these systems are ever idle is Monday mornings, > since the daily "traffic" files for analysis are smaller at > weekends (you can guess what business this is in). If these > downloads are to the same disk as the one with the current > analysis, we become (severely!) limited by disk-head bouncing > back and forth. > > Volume sets are an absolutely perfect solution for this. would not be better off with striped disks? - there is a vms layered product that does this ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 13:44:40 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: Volume sets - yes, they can be very useful. Message-ID: IanMiller wrote: > >> [...snip...] >> Volume sets are an absolutely perfect solution for this. > > would not be better off with striped disks? - there is a vms layered > product that does this. Absolutely not. Plus it would cost extra, and it would perform much worse than the bound volume set. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:45:05 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: Hi Sue, Sue wrote: - > This is to anyone that would care to respond. And you can respond > either here or to my hotmail account or HP account. What would be > your reason for not attending the Boot Camp or if you can not attend > the HPTF. No one is asking me to do a survey it just matters to me > what the issue is. You seem curiously surprised at how successful your colleagues have been at reducing VMS to the status of a complete irrelevance in the IT industry. But I'm afraid that in order to fully understand the attendance figures you must first turn your question on its head and ask instead why someone would bother turning up at all, let alone pay 1500 bucks for the privilege of participating in a human bait-ball pushed up against the beach by sharks, unscrupulous and self-serving HP employees, independant contractors/consultants, and an assortment of suppliers. If you'd be so kind as to provide a more accurate demographic breakdown of the 200 attendees (a long way from DECWorld Boston eh? no QE II then?) then it might aid further discussion, but for the purposes of this post let me provide my best guess: - 70 - Supplier/Partner representatives ready to hawk their wares like any other trade show 50 - Independant Contractors/Consultants touting for work any chance they get 10 - Or so, sponsored extras 60 - The Bait-Ball, representing about 30 real customers who expect to learn something 10 - Clearners and passers-by making up the numbers ---- 200 - Total So, whenever any of the bait-ball makes a break for the coffee-urn, they're immediately set upon by the consultants in a seagull-like frenzy. Whereas the supplier-representatives are content to wait for the evening when they get to roger them senseless on the partner round-table. More patient still, the HP employees wait until the end for their pay-day, when they can distill everything the customers said (or didn't say) into a conference feedback report that will undoubtedly provide affirmation and vindication and most importantly subsequent funding of their pet projects from HP for the next twelve months. Everyone's a winner; chickens for dinner. Except the customers perhaps who maybe walking away thinking "What was it we learnt again? And why is my bottom so sore?". But the catch-22 is you know *they'll* never complain 'cos their little OS jolly and shopping trip to the States may be cut back next year. So they tell their bosses they learned heaps and it was company-money well spent. Your mates get to tell Ann that all topics were very well received and attended, although there was some disappointment expressed about there not being enough Web Services content. And the suppliers and contractors draw back on their cigerettes and mutter something about "What happens on Boot Camp, stays on Boot Camp!". Let's do the same shit again next year? Big pats on the back all round! So what's "new" this year Sue? . Blades? OK . VMS 8.4? OK . UCX still making promises? - Bzzzt . Regular tired old suspects putting their stalls out on their pet topics? - Bzzzt . Someone tells us exactly how many VMS licenses are still out there so someone's arse gets kicked - Bzzzt . GUI interface for VMS 3GLs - Bzzzt Look, maybe I'm being a bit cynical, but why on earth would someone pay $1500 for that experience when they can invest in an Adobe FlexBuilder license or train up on some Linux or .NET or something else they're likely to need once your colleagues are completely finished running VMS into the ground? Shouldn't be too long now :-( Regards Richard Maher PS. And then you go and make some sort of religious statement by being the only symposium this side of Tel Aviv to start on a Sunday. What's all that about? lib$day_of_week must really piss you off. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 04:24:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: <482fe8e0$0$31203$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Richard Maher wrote: > > You seem curiously surprised at how successful your colleagues have been at > reducing VMS to the status of a complete irrelevance in the IT industry. But > I'm afraid that in order to fully understand the attendance figures you must > first turn your question on its head and ask instead why someone would > bother turning up at all, Mr Maher, Sue is a great person. Sue is a paid employee of HP and as such, she has to toe the line. You should understand that. And considering that she seems to be responsible for 99.9999% of the positive PR VMS gets, despite HP's efforts to disallow PR on VMS, you should appreciate every bit Sue does. I am sure a lot of us would like to get Sue alone in a bar and get her to start to spill the beans after having relaxed over a few beers/wine bottles/whatever she fancies. Unfortunatly, I spspect she probably gets all males to sign NDAs before she enters a bar with them :-) Consider the case where Sue were to move to brighter pastures. There would be nobody left within HP to bother informing the users and to provide some information to control all the rumours that surface due to lack of public commitment by HP. Sue's commitment to VMS is unquestionable. (she deserves a special award from openvms.org). When she leaves, the message will be pretty clear. But until that happens, it is refreshing to see someone maintain her level of commitment not to her job, but to the VMS community. She clearly cares. HP may not give Sue much to be happy about, but Sue has a user community that love her. So it is important for the community to continue to show its love of Sue. Having people start to criticise Sue is just not something that is done. I am the first one to criticise HP and try to read between the lines to try to see what HP's true goals are. I don't trust nor respect HP. But I respect Sue greatly. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 09:37:24 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: You're not being the ball Danny. (Was: OpenVMS Boot Camp Update) Message-ID: <00A79C18.914A15BA@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article , "Richard Maher" writes: >Hi Sue, > >Sue wrote: - >> This is to anyone that would care to respond. And you can respond >> either here or to my hotmail account or HP account. What would be >> your reason for not attending the Boot Camp or if you can not attend >> the HPTF. No one is asking me to do a survey it just matters to me >> what the issue is. > >So, whenever any of the bait-ball makes a break for the coffee-urn, they're >immediately set upon by the consultants in a seagull-like frenzy. Whereas >the supplier-representatives are content to wait for the evening when they >get to roger them senseless on the partner round-table. More patient still, >the HP employees wait until the end for their pay-day, when they can distill >everything the customers said (or didn't say) into a conference feedback >report that will undoubtedly provide affirmation and vindication and most >importantly subsequent funding of their pet projects from HP for the next >twelve months. Everyone's a winner; chickens for dinner. Except the >customers perhaps who maybe walking away thinking "What was it we learnt >again? And why is my bottom so sore?". But the catch-22 is you know >*they'll* never complain 'cos their little OS jolly and shopping trip to the >States may be cut back next year. I am actually a customer, and I'm not getting an international trip to the states. (Now, I'm a customer who runs HP-ported Apache and Tomcat on VMS for actual business use, so maybe you don't want to listen to me.) My experience in the two years I went to the Boot Camp was nothing like what you describe, and I'd be happy to go back if the scheduling changed so that it wasn't lined up against Memorial Day weekend, when I have conflicts galore. Yes, what I'm saying is that if we went back to having to go to New England in March when it's sometimes really cold, I'd be happy to go back. I'm going to the Tech Forum because it works a lot better for my schedule, but I'd prefer the Boot Camp. So you're basically pretty wrong about this particular thing, and you're reducing your credibility (and the degree to which I listen sympathetically to you) by dumping this load of old cobblers on top of Sue. -- Alan ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.277 ************************