INFO-VAX Tue, 23 Sep 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 513 Contents: Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium? Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium? Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium? Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications to I Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications EFI Console Re: EFI Console Re: EFI Console Re: EFI Console Re: EFI Console Re: EFI Console Re: EFI Console getting rid of quoted printable Re: getting rid of quoted printable Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup ? Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Re: How to retreive values from a file Re: How to retreive values from a file Re: How to retreive values from a file Re: How to retreive values from a file Re: How to retreive values from a file Re: How to retreive values from a file Re: How to retreive values from a file Re: HP to axe 24,6000 jobs Re: Intermittent RWSCS state Re: Is there an updated Ghostscript for VMS? Jabber & VMS - what happens next? Re: Jabber & VMS - what happens next? RE: Jabber & VMS - what happens next? Re: Loose Cannon-dian Re: Loose Cannon-dian mailing list GW OK? Re: mailing list GW OK? Manipulating debug and traceback flags Re: Manipulating debug and traceback flags Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Re: NEWS was: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken Re: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Silverlight native TCP/IP Socket support in V2 SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts Re: SSH break-in attempts testing a pointer Re: testing a pointer Re: testing a pointer Re: testing a pointer Re: testing a pointer We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? RE: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? [OT] LHC costs, was: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:56:28 +0200 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium? Message-ID: <48d1edab$0$183$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> In this case listings would have shown that the linkage of that routine was eliminated for Itanium. There are more people working on Itanium. I've done my fair share of drivers, execlets, uwss and other kernel stuff on all platforms. But listings are really necessary for that sort of work. Jur. VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote, On 17-9-2008 12:45: > In article <3c9768ff-c88a-4a91-8de1-e049e143a825@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: >> I have done one execlet which works on alpha and itanium. It is >> written in C, >> See http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~miller/mbmon010.zip >> >> I guess you need someone with access to Itanium VMS listings to see >> how execlects are linked on that platform. > > NOT!!! > > I have myriad working execlets and drivers that I've linked. I'm perfectly > fine with linking these. It turns out that the system routine in question > has been elided from VMS on Itanium but the reference to it still listed in > the SYS$BASE_IMAGE map. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:20:01 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium? Message-ID: <00A7FCEF.CEF6DE42@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <48d1edab$0$183$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: >In this case listings would have shown that the linkage of that routine was >eliminated for Itanium. > >There are more people working on Itanium. I've done my fair share of drivers, >execlets, uwss and other kernel stuff on all platforms. But listings are >really necessary for that sort of work. Well, I don't know about that. I've decided to learn this stuff the old fashioned way by looking at all of the executive with SDA. It takes some time to trace down argument usage, etc., but I've managed thus far to get all sorts of things ported without listings! I've been munging page tables, mapping memory and, yes, even intercepting executive routines and system services (change mode and mode of caller); all without listings! Sad that Garrett E. Brown could believe that I was dumber than a rock when it came to porting VMS code. I really should have looked more carefully at the MMG$ALLOC_PFN_MAP_SVA in the SYS$BASE_IMAGE.MAP file. Chalk that one up to Itanium instruction blindness -- similar to snow-blindness. :) I spent two days and figured out a replacement -- after several crashes. They're fun to pour through though. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:45:32 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: am I the only one hacking VMS on Itanium? Message-ID: "John Reagan" writes: >"Michael Moroney" wrote in message >news:gap2vs$utd$1@pcls6.std.com... >> I'm doing Macro work on Itanium and we've found odd Macro problems, but >> the same problems exist on the Alpha macro compiler so I think we're the >> first to encounter them since the Alpha came out. >Do I know about them? I'm about to do some other Macro work/fixes so while >I'm in there... I just found something else that causes Itanium Macro to toss its cookies (accvio). I'll narrow it down to a reproducer and get it to you when I get a chance, but it doesn't seem serious (has to do with a wrong/missing macro definition) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:51:55 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime Message-ID: blowhard27 wrote: > I'm getting the APR built (from the HP sources for SWS) and want to > run the provided tests. There is a regular shareable library (builds > fine) and a protected shareable library. I'm using a system on which > I have only base privileges so I can't install the protected > shareable. > > Can I just relink the protected shareable without the /protect > qualifier and then at least be able to run images that are linked with > it? With the understanding that I will probably run into privilege > issues depending on what functions get called? Might as well try it and see. ISTR the main thing it quarantines off in the privileged image is adjusting the buffer size of sockets that are used as pipes, and if it fails gracefully enough, you'll just end up muddling on with your puny 256-byte default buffer. Kind of a shame this buffer size isn't counted against quota rather than requiring privilege to change. > I'm doing this on one of the IA64 testdrive systems. Maybe someone > can suggest another place? I want to build the APR so I can possibly > build a (non Java) subversion client. That would be cool. One option here might be to not build the APR at all but just require SWS and link against the APR images installed with it. You'd probably still need to use the headers from the source kit and of course this approach would fall down flat if you encountered bugs or missing features in whatever version of the APR SWS provides. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:45:25 -0700 (PDT) From: blowhard27 Subject: Re: Building Apache Portable Runtime Message-ID: > Might as well try it and see. ISTR the main thing it quarantines off in > the privileged image is adjusting the buffer size of sockets that are > used as pipes, and if it fails gracefully enough, you'll just end up > muddling on with your puny 256-byte default buffer. Kind of a shame this > buffer size isn't counted against quota rather than requiring privilege > to change. Yes, I will definitely try it. In fact I posted this knowing I would need to do that but was tired and figured maybe an answer is out there. > That would be cool. (editor: building svn client) One option here might be to not build the APR at all > but just require SWS and link against the APR images installed with it. > You'd probably still need to use the headers from the source kit and of > course this approach would fall down flat if you encountered bugs or > missing features in whatever version of the APR SWS provides. If I could find such a system... Anyone got one? I'm also trying the other way round, that is taking the subversion client and seeing what it really needs. Which leads me to wonder about a problem that we've never really solved, dependencies. Just occurred to me that if I knew the format of DSF files maybe a clever script could parse them and tell me what to do. Thanks for the ideas. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:00:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Verne Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <60054fec-e1a5-46df-919d-6526c9ed6d1c@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Sep 9, 3:46=A0am, Volker Halle wrote: > On 8 Sep., 14:56, IanMiller wrote: > > > VAXSMGRMUP01_062, ECO Kit has been announced. This fixesSMGRTLfor > > VAX/VMSV6.2. > > > Keep watching for more announcements. > > Note that you may not be able to expand this kit on OpenVMS VAXV6.2: > > $ run VAXSMGRMUP01_062.ZIPEXE > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image VAXSMGRMUP01_062.ZIPEXE > -CLI-E-IMGNAME, image file DSA10:VAXSMGRMUP01_062.ZIPEXE;1 > -SYSTEM-F-BADIMGHDR, bad image header > > Expanding the kit on OpenVMS VAX V7.3 works fine, as well as > installation onV6.2 > > Volker. Engineering has replaced the v6.2 ZIPEXE module on ITRC with VAXSMGRMUP01_062.A-DCX_VAXEXE (dated 17-SEP-2008) ... and since I actually have a v6.2 system, I downloaded it and can state that the DCX image will run and unpack correctly on 6.2 :-) Verne ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 15:46:19 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS Message-ID: In article , Len Whitwer writes: > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software > "executables" to > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- > compiled. VEST goes from VAX to Alpha and AEST goes from Alpha to Itanium. AEST can handle the output of VEST. Both are available from HP. You can also get simulators that simulate VAX hardware or Alpha hardware on other platforms. That way you're running on a new platform but the software thinks you're running on the old. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Message-ID: On Sep 18, 4:18=A0pm, Len Whitwer wrote: > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software > "executables" to > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- > compiled. > > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for > PDP11's to VAX back > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Len Whitwer > > -Len Whitwer > Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc. > 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100 > Woodinville, WA =A098072 > e-mail =A0 =A0mailto:l...@psds.com > Internet:http://www.psds.com > Toll Free: (866)857-0710 > Tel: (425) 488-0710 > Fax: (425) 488-6414 OpenVMS Migration Software for VAX to Alpha (previously known as DECmigrate aka VEST) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsva.html Then HP OpenVMS migration software for HP AlphaServer systems to HP Integrity Servers (OMSAIS) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/omsva/omsais.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Message-ID: On Sep 18, 10:18 am, Len Whitwer wrote: > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software > "executables" to > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- > compiled. > > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for > PDP11's to VAX back > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Len Whitwer > > -Len Whitwer > Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc. > 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100 > Woodinville, WA 98072 > e-mail mailto:l...@psds.com > Internet:http://www.psds.com > Toll Free: (866)857-0710 > Tel: (425) 488-0710 > Fax: (425) 488-6414 Len, Ian has already posted the link. The PDP-11 conversion was part of OpenVMS itself. Hardware compatibility was part of every processor till the MicroVAX I, and thereafter the Applications Migration Executive (AME) was a separate licensed component. There is a good Digital Technical Journal article, but I am not near my bookshelf at this instant so I cannot provide the citation. The VEST and AEST packages are quite useful, particularly if there are missing sources. They are also useful as management tools to doing an actual migration. My OpenVMS Technical Journal article "Strategies for Migrating from Alpha and VAX systems to HP Integrity Servers on OpenVMS" (available via http://www.rlgsc.com/publications/vmstechjournal/migrationstrategies.html ), as well as my presentation of the same title from the 2008 HP Enterprise Technology Forum (slides at http://www.rlgsc.com/hptechnologyforum/2008/migrationstrategies.html ) covered how the binary translators can be used as a strategic tool. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:38:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Len Whitwer Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Message-ID: <779ac76f-763d-4094-92bc-b5d6ad539f31@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 8:25=A0am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:18:41 -0700, Len Whitwer wrote: > > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software > > "executables" to > > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- > > compiled. > > > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for > > PDP11's to VAX back > > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > What is the source language of the executable? > > > > > Len Whitwer > > > -Len Whitwer > > Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc. > > 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100 > > Woodinville, WA =A098072 > > e-mail =A0 =A0mailto:l...@psds.com > > Internet:http://www.psds.com > > Toll Free: (866)857-0710 > > Tel: (425) 488-0710 > > Fax: (425) 488-6414 > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com The some of the source code is BASIC however not all. (This is an old school application product that has many modules of which not all are BASIC) Thus the emulation product is best in the short run until complete re- compliling of software is can be completed. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:34:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Len Whitwer Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Message-ID: <331a61ae-0389-47ab-ab91-280416322088@b30g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 9:58=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Len Whitwer wrote: > > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software > > "executables" to > > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- > > compiled. > > > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for > > PDP11's to VAX back > > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > ISTR that DEC did it. =A0If you purchased the RSX11 software for VAX, you > could run your PDP-11 stuff on a VAX 11/780 or 11/750 and maybe on the > 730 and 725. =A0I never actually ran any PDP-11 software on a VAX. > > I have NOT heard of such a tool for Integrity. =A0What happened to your > source code? =A0If it's commercial software you want to run, does your > license allow you to run it on Integrity? Hi Richard: Source code is in many modules of which are not all BASIC. It is comercial software running on ALPHA and I'm not sure at this point anout licensing as I don't have a solution "product" yet. Thanks for you help. Len Whitwer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:20:28 -0700 (PDT) From: FrankS Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Message-ID: <035d7d31-debf-4fc1-b194-fab7e062377a@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 1:34=A0pm, Len Whitwer wrote: > Source code is in many modules of which are not all BASIC. It is > comercial software running on ALPHA and I'm not sure at this point anout > licensing as I don't have a solution "product" yet. If source code is available then I wouldn't even bother taking the time to translate the images. Whether or not they are all BASIC or a mix of languages shouldn't be a factor. For a commercial product in particular, where the HP/DSPP program can provide free Integrity licenses for migration, then it's almost a no- brainer. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:18:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Len Whitwer Subject: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications to I Message-ID: Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software "executables" to run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- compiled. I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for PDP11's to VAX back in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Len Whitwer -Len Whitwer Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc. 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100 Woodinville, WA 98072 e-mail mailto:len@psds.com Internet: http://www.psds.com Toll Free: (866)857-0710 Tel: (425) 488-0710 Fax: (425) 488-6414 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:58:18 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Message-ID: Len Whitwer wrote: > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software > "executables" to > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- > compiled. > > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for > PDP11's to VAX back > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > ISTR that DEC did it. If you purchased the RSX11 software for VAX, you could run your PDP-11 stuff on a VAX 11/780 or 11/750 and maybe on the 730 and 725. I never actually ran any PDP-11 software on a VAX. I have NOT heard of such a tool for Integrity. What happened to your source code? If it's commercial software you want to run, does your license allow you to run it on Integrity? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:25:00 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a "VESTING TOOL" for emulating/porting VMS applications Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:18:41 -0700, Len Whitwer wrote: > Looking for a tool that allows ALPHA or even VAX application software > "executables" to > run on OpenVMS INTEGRITY systems without being modified and re- > compiled. > > I know there was a company by the name of RAXCO that did it for > PDP11's to VAX back > in the old days. Any help would be greatly appreciated. What is the source language of the executable? > > Len Whitwer > > -Len Whitwer > Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc. > 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100 > Woodinville, WA 98072 > e-mail mailto:len@psds.com > Internet: http://www.psds.com > Toll Free: (866)857-0710 > Tel: (425) 488-0710 > Fax: (425) 488-6414 -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:22:57 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: EFI Console Message-ID: I got one of those RX2600 and in trying to talk to the console connected from an Alpha using SET HOST/DTE TTA0 it keeps trying to refresh the screen and eventually ends with garbage. What should be the terminal settings on the Alpha? Tom -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:35:13 -0700 (PDT) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: Re: EFI Console Message-ID: <0b50f3ac-f986-4504-8081-80e486b306d3@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 4:22=A0pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > I got one of those RX2600 and in trying to talk to the console > connected from an Alpha using > SET HOST/DTE TTA0 > > it keeps trying to refresh the screen and eventually ends with > garbage. =A0What should be the terminal settings on the Alpha? Which port are you connected to, the CONSOLE port on the rx itself or the management processor? This anyway, I've got a null modem cable hooked up to the CONSOLE port (not the MP) and this is the terminal settings shown by VMS once logged in (the other end is an OS X box running ckermit): $ show term Terminal: _OPA0: Device_Type: VT100 Owner: SYSTEM Input: 9600 LFfill: 0 Width: 80 Parity: None Output: 9600 CRfill: 0 Page: 24 Terminal Characteristics: Interactive Echo Type_ahead No Escape No Hostsync TTsync Lowercase Tab Wrap Scope No Remote No Eightbit Broadcast No Readsync No Form Fulldup No Modem No Local_echo No Autobaud No Hangup No Brdcstmbx No DMA No Altypeahd Set_speed No Commsync Line Editing Overstrike editing No Fallback No Dialup No Secure server No Disconnect No Pasthru No Syspassword No SIXEL Graphics No Soft Characters No Printer Port Numeric Keypad ANSI_CRT No Regis No Block_mode Advanced_video No Edit_mode DEC_CRT No DEC_CRT2 No DEC_CRT3 No DEC_CRT4 No DEC_CRT5 No Ansi_Color VMS Style Input Backspace On a related note, does anyone know how I get the MP to act as the OPA0: VMS console? Sampsa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:31:10 -0400 From: "John Reagan" Subject: Re: EFI Console Message-ID: wrote in message news:0b50f3ac-f986-4504-8081-80e486b306d3@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... On a related note, does anyone know how I get the MP to act as the OPA0: VMS console? At the EFI menu, select the boot options and change the default input/output/error devices from the UART on the BMC console to the other UART which is part of the MP. VMS will then use that device. Personally, I connect to all my MP's via IP using PuTTY and only use the serial line the first time to config the MP lan device. John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 06:19:21 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: EFI Console Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 06:31:10 -0700, John Reagan wrote: > > wrote in message > news:0b50f3ac-f986-4504-8081-80e486b306d3@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... > > On a related note, does anyone know how I get the MP to act as the > OPA0: VMS console? > > > At the EFI menu, select the boot options and change the default > input/output/error devices from the UART on the BMC console to the other > UART which is part of the MP. VMS will then use that device. > Personally, I > connect to all my MP's via IP using PuTTY and only use the serial line > the > first time to config the MP lan device. John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears in the same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232 console port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to properly scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video. > > John > > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:15:46 -0400 From: "John Reagan" Subject: Re: EFI Console Message-ID: "Tom Linden" wrote in message news:op.uhr7ajy0hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net... > John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears in > the > same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232 > console > port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to > properly > scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video. No, I just swear under my breath and use 'cls' to clear the screen. John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 05:39:43 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: EFI Console Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:15:46 -0700, John Reagan wrote: > > "Tom Linden" wrote in message > news:op.uhr7ajy0hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net... >> John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears >> in >> the >> same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232 >> console >> port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to >> properly >> scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video. > > No, I just swear under my breath and use 'cls' to clear the screen. > > John > > Sure miss SRM. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:21:37 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: EFI Console Message-ID: <00A8001D.141873E4@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:15:46 -0700, John Reagan > wrote: > >> >> "Tom Linden" wrote in message >> news:op.uhr7ajy0hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net... >>> John, maybe you know, when in the efi shell, the prompt always appears >>> in >>> the >>> same location in the window (connected from TTA0 on an alpha to the 232 >>> console >>> port of the 2600) and overwrites what was there. How do you get it to >>> properly >>> scroll, and turn off the annoying reverse video. >> >> No, I just swear under my breath and use 'cls' to clear the screen. >> >> John >> >> >Sure miss SRM. I've patched the HP in the initial: HP OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Operating System, Version Vmaj.min to output c. As soon as VMS boots, the screen is back to normal. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:52:53 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: getting rid of quoted printable Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article <00A7FDE1.0A74FF45@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > > I once started writing a decoder for q-p for incorporation into NEWSRDR > > but then I decided it wasn't worth the effort. > > On my to-do list is writing an EDT macro for such decoding. Here it is. Put this in your EDTINI.EDT: ! kill quoted-printable DEFINE MACRO KQP FIND BUFFER KQP INSERT;s|=FC|ü|w INSERT;s|=DF|ß|w INSERT;s|=F6|ö|w INSERT;s|=E4|ä|w INSERT;s|=3D|=|w INSERT;s|=A0| |w INSERT;s|=92|'|w INSERT;s|=20||w INSERT;s|=C4|Ä|w INSERT;s|=D6|Ö|w INSERT;s|=DC|Ü|w FIND LAST Go to the command line (PF1 KP7 or CTRL-Z) and type KQP. It's easy to add more codes if you wish. EDT is fast; I have a 362-line EDTINI.EDT and I hardly notice it, even though it is read anew each time I edit a file. I use EDT not only from the DCL command line but also within VMS MAIL, NEWSRDR etc so I always have the same commands available. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:57:33 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: getting rid of quoted printable Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > Here it is. Put this in your EDTINI.EDT: > > ! kill quoted-printable > DEFINE MACRO KQP > FIND BUFFER KQP > INSERT;s|=FC|ü|w > INSERT;s|=DF|ß|w I'm sure real EDT wizards could do this more elegantly. With EDT, you can easily input any character via its code, so it's easy to extend the table: PF1 PF1 KP3 To see a table of codes, type (at the DCL command line) HELP FORTRAN CHAR This gives you two charts, 0--127 and 128--255, but in hex. (That shouldn't be a problem for real programmers, though.) Note that the DEC multinational character set (which is the second table above) is ALMOST the same as ISO-Latin-8859-15. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 11:44:03 -0500 From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without Message-ID: <0y4AFDa0ythE@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > > I use groups.google.com, and used to use newsgroups through eisner as > characted interface. > I'll try to find an other reader to see what and how it comes accross > wrong. > I don't suppose you are interested in trying for example google groups > to see if looks ok there. This message comes to you from Eisner using ANU News. I'm using the version of ANU News that Graham modified to support NNTP authentication and have a free account at news.sunsite.dk (http://dotsrc.org/usenet), which gives access to the comp.* hierarchy (and some others). A thread is on Eisner in the DECUSERVE_FORUM conference, topic 788. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:03:36 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <00A7FDAE.4CB63B48@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: >On Sep 18, 6:30=A0pm, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> Syltrem wrote: >> >> > I know all of that. >> > If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ? >> >> > That's what I want to know. >> >> I think the general answer is "you can't". >> >> You could set the volumes to have highwater marking enabled, then the >> "junk" file would contain all zeros, However that can slow down file >> extend operations considerably. > >Highwater marking CAN hurt, but for many 'normal' operations it is >just about transparent. >For certain applications if it too harsh. File extends are free.. but >that first random access write... > > >> > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's con= >tent >> > is garbage". > > No. > >Well yes, in the backup container. >Do you still have the container? >Backup / list [/full] does not show it, but it knows it. > >I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag. >I don't pretend to understand a backup container (like do I worry >about blocksize?), but this first part seemed easy. >Code appended below. > >The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the >reader. SMOP! :-) Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. I remember days when I could read DCL code posted to usenet. This code is now usenot. Hein, what are you using for your newsreader? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:34:54 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: In article <32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > On Sep 19, 7:03=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > In article om>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > > >Code appended below. > > >The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the > > >reader. SMOP! =A0:-) > > > > Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet > > with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. =A0I remember days when > > I could read DCL code posted to usenet. =A0This code is now usenot. > > Oops sorry 'bout that. Looks good to me. > Except that it indicates 'quoted text' for the last two lines with > closing braces. That's the problem---it looks good to YOU. Your reader is interpreting the quoted-printable stuff, so you don't see what it looks like in a text-based newsreader. I recommend NEWSRDR. It has an interface similar to VMS MAIL. It also lets you define keys (as does VMS MAIL). It is a character-cell based application (like VMS MAIL). I can sort of understand using quoted-printable when 8-bit characters are involved. However, in practice, just posting the raw 8-bit characters seems to work fine. ISO-Latin-8859-15 is probably assumed (one has to assume SOMETHING, since there is no one standard 8-bit encoding), but that is almost always a good assumption (and if not, you probably couldn't read it in any case). What really annoys me, though, is encoding 7-bit printable US-ASCII characters. What is the possible purpose of that? Instead of "=" we get "=3D" etc. For those of us who learned to type properly (at least VAXman and myself :-) ) and insert two spaces at the end of a sentence, instead of ". " we get ". =A0" when our posts are quoted. That's also an annoyance---not only folks posting quoted-printable stuff, but transforming perfectly good plain text to quoted-printable when quoting it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:06:49 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <00A7FDE1.0A74FF45@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >In article ><32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, >Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > >> On Sep 19, 7:03=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> > In article > om>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: >> > >Code appended below. >> > >The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the >> > >reader. SMOP! =A0:-) >> > >> > Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet >> > with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. =A0I remember days when >> > I could read DCL code posted to usenet. =A0This code is now usenot. >> >> Oops sorry 'bout that. Looks good to me. >> Except that it indicates 'quoted text' for the last two lines with >> closing braces. > >That's the problem---it looks good to YOU. Your reader is interpreting >the quoted-printable stuff, so you don't see what it looks like in a >text-based newsreader. > >I recommend NEWSRDR. It has an interface similar to VMS MAIL. It also >lets you define keys (as does VMS MAIL). It is a character-cell based >application (like VMS MAIL). > >I can sort of understand using quoted-printable when 8-bit characters >are involved. However, in practice, just posting the raw 8-bit >characters seems to work fine. ISO-Latin-8859-15 is probably assumed >(one has to assume SOMETHING, since there is no one standard 8-bit >encoding), but that is almost always a good assumption (and if not, you >probably couldn't read it in any case). Unfortunately, ISO-Latin-8859-15 is not always the assumed default set. I've been using Ubuntu linux on a laptop and I use it to access my VMS machines. It, unfortunately, uses UTF-8 as its default. However, I've found that: 1 - screen works better than the basic gnome terminal app if accessing VMS. 2 - you can changed the default character set in screen I have a .screenrc file with a few very basic defaults startup_message off defescape ^xx <= changes screen command escape from ^A to ^X defencoding ISO8859-15 \because I use ^A in VMS for toggling insert I now access VMS with $ screen ssh -p#### username@vmshost.domain from the gnome terminal and it works like a charm. Tough bit is using EDT. >What really annoys me, though, is encoding 7-bit printable US-ASCII >characters. What is the possible purpose of that? Instead of "=" we >get "=3D" etc. For those of us who learned to type properly (at least >VAXman and myself :-) ) and insert two spaces at the end of a sentence, >instead of ". " we get ". =A0" when our posts are quoted. That's also >an annoyance---not only folks posting quoted-printable stuff, but >transforming perfectly good plain text to quoted-printable when quoting >it. You can thank Miscreant Idiot Coding Rejects Outputting Specious Often Flawed Technology in a large part for that. I once started writing a decoder for q-p for incorporation into NEWSRDR but then I decided it wasn't worth the effort. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:41:53 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: In article <00A7FDE1.0A74FF45@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > I once started writing a decoder for q-p for incorporation into NEWSRDR > but then I decided it wasn't worth the effort. On my to-do list is writing an EDT macro for such decoding. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: On Sep 18, 1:33=A0pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > As in the subject... > > I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else. > > x.x is set to NOBACKUP > > I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=3DNOBA= CKUP > because I did it purposefully > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP > > But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files. > > The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by > looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains val= id > data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a > header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case. > > How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ? > Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal > file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the f= ile > does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ? This one is easy: the copied file has garbage in it. BACKUP told you so. All DIRECTORY tells you is, essentially, about the file organization and size, nothing about its contents (data). The reason for setting a file NOBACKUP is to avoid spending time coping the contents of a file that are known will not be usable, e.g., a pagefile or swapfile, or indeed, certain kinds of database file (which is why databases include their own backup utilities). You *must* use Backup/Ignore=3DNoBackup if you want to copy the data in a file rather than just allocating space for it. -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:14:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <9baea9eb-814f-49d8-8d05-2a9135a41cd6@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 2:06=A0pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > wrote in message > > news:faa0e799-b226-421d-b64a-e965fb55e451@b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > On Sep 18, 1:33 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > > > > > As in the subject... > > > I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else. > > > x.x is set to NOBACKUP > > > I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using > > BACKUP/IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP > > because I did it purposefully > > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP > > > But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files. > > > The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by > > looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains > > valid > > data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain = a > > header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case. > > > How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ? > > Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriigin= al > > file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the > > file > > does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ? > > > This one is easy: the copied file has garbage in it. =A0BACKUP told > > you so. =A0All DIRECTORY tells you is, essentially, about the file > > organization and size, nothing about its contents (data). > > > The reason for setting a file NOBACKUP is to avoid spending time > > coping the contents of a file that are known will not be usable, > > e.g., > > a pagefile or swapfile, or indeed, certain kinds of database file > > (which is why databases include their own backup utilities). > > > You *must* use Backup/Ignore=3DNoBackup if you want to copy > > the data in a file rather than just allocating space for it. > > > =A0 =A0-Ken > > Hi Ken > > I know all of that. > If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ? > > That's what I want to know. > As you sais there is garbage in my file. But the original file also conta= ins > data that looks like garbege to human eyes so I cannot tell just by looki= ng > at the file's contents. > > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's conte= nt > is garbage". No, I don't believe there is any (external) way to tell. Certainly, there's no flag. -Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 23:18:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: On Sep 18, 6:30=A0pm, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Syltrem wrote: > > > I know all of that. > > If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=3DNOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ? > > > That's what I want to know. > > I think the general answer is "you can't". > > You could set the volumes to have highwater marking enabled, then the > "junk" file would contain all zeros, However that can slow down file > extend operations considerably. Highwater marking CAN hurt, but for many 'normal' operations it is just about transparent. For certain applications if it too harsh. File extends are free.. but that first random access write... > > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's con= tent > > is garbage". > No. Well yes, in the backup container. Do you still have the container? Backup / list [/full] does not show it, but it knows it. I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag. I don't pretend to understand a backup container (like do I worry about blocksize?), but this first part seemed easy. Code appended below. The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the reader. SMOP! :-) . For now, I just merged the tool output with BACKUP/LIST output $ pipe mcr sys$login:list_backup tmp.bck > tmp.flags $ backup/list=3Dtmp.lis tmp.bck/save $ create merge.pl $f =3D shift or die "need flag file"; open F,"<$f" or die "Could not open $f\n$!"; while () { if (/FILE,/) { $flag[$file++] =3D (/HEADONLY/) ? 1 : 0; } } $f =3D shift or die "need backup list"; open F,"<$f" or die "Could not open $f\n$!"; $file =3D 0; while () { if (/^\[/) { print 'HEADONLY '.$_ if $flag[$file++]; } } print "$file files.\n"; $ perl merge.pl tmp.flags tmp.lis HEADONLY [HEIN]ORACLE_10GR2_CHECK_QUOTA.COM;4 9 6-MAY-2008 12:04 HEADONLY [HEIN]ORACLE_10G_PRE_INSTALL_CHECK.COM;1 33 5-MAY-2008 18:24 7 files. Cheers, Hein. --------------------------- list_backup ----------------- #include #include #include #include #include #define DNS ".BCK" int SYS$CRMPSC(), SYS$OPEN(); char *types[] =3D {"NULL","SUMM","VOLU","FILE","VBN ", "PHYS","LBN ","FID ","EXT_","567_", "????"}; main (int argc, char *argv[]) { struct { char *lo; char *hi; } retadr =3D {0,0}; struct FAB fab; struct BRHDEF *brh; struct BBHDEF *bbh; int stat, max_type; if (2 !=3D argc) return 16; fab =3D cc$rms_fab; fab.fab$v_ufo =3D 1; fab.fab$l_fna =3D argv[1]; fab.fab$b_fns =3D strlen( argv[1] ); fab.fab$l_dna =3D DNS; fab.fab$b_dns =3D sizeof DNS; stat =3D SYS$OPEN ( &fab ); if (!(stat&1)) return stat; stat =3D SYS$CRMPSC ( &retadr, &retadr, 0, SEC$M_EXPREG, 0, 0, 0, fab.fab $l_stv, 0, 0, 0, 0 ); if (!(stat&1)) return stat; brh =3D (struct BRHDEF *) (retadr.lo + BBH$K_LENGTH) ; max_type =3D sizeof ( types ) / sizeof ( char * ) - 1; while ( brh < (struct BRHDEF *) retadr.hi ) { int rtype =3D brh->BRH$W_RTYPE; if (rtype > max_type) rtype =3D max_type; printf ("%08x, %04x, %s, %s\n", brh, brh->BRH$W_RSIZE, types[rtype], (brh->BRH$R_FILL_5_. BRH$R_FILL_6_.BRH$V_HEADONLY)? "HEADONLY": ""); if (0 =3D=3D rtype) break; brh =3D (struct BRHDEF *) ((char *) brh + BRH$K_LENGTH + brh->BRH $W_RSIZE); } } ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:32:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <32bda37a-b097-42cd-99e5-3dd654b6b815@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Sep 19, 7:03=A0am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > >Code appended below. > >The actual display of the filenames is left as an excercise for the > >reader. SMOP! =A0:-) > > Speaking of exercises for the reader, reading articles posted to usenet > with quoted-printable is one hell of an exercise. =A0I remember days when > I could read DCL code posted to usenet. =A0This code is now usenot. Oops sorry 'bout that. Looks good to me. Except that it indicates 'quoted text' for the last two lines with closing braces. I use groups.google.com, and used to use newsgroups through eisner as characted interface. I'll try to find an other reader to see what and how it comes accross wrong. I don't suppose you are interested in trying for example google groups to see if looks ok there. Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:31:46 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <0baf8275-e667-40e6-9943-73f2660108d9@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Sep 19, 3:02=A0pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" a =E9crit dans le > message de news: > dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com... > On Sep 18, 6:30 pm, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > > > > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's > > > content > > > is garbage". > =A0> No. > > > > Well yes, in the backup container. > > > Do you still have the container? > > > Backup / list [/full] =A0does not show it, but it knows it. > > > > I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag. > > Thanks for spending time on this, but I used backup to move the file from > disk to disk. No saveset. > It appears like the file is bad (well that's not actually proven), but > there's no way for me to tell. And others in this ng agree with that. > > I tried to find some recognizable pattern in the file that would tell if = the > data inside is good or not, but it is not conclusive. > Some good files do not show the pattern and yet are usable. > > Point is, I always use /IGNORE=3DNOBACKP to move these files around. Ther= e's a > problem with the software reading the copied files, and I cannot prove th= at > the data is good. The program does not tell wheter it doesn't like the da= ta > in a specific file (there are a dozen of them), it just crashes. We don= =E8t > know why. So obviously they say that my file is probably bad. > > Is that a problem with the file, ? I don't know. > > I don't think there`s a way out of this. > > The worst thing is that after trying the operation a 3rd time, it succeed= ed. > Did I really forget /INGORE=3DNOBACKUP 2 times ? > Everything is possible, I guess, but there`s no way to tell if I did or n= ot. > > Thanks for your thoughts. > Syltrem Isn't there something at the beginning of these files that's recognizable? Can you look at a dump of another version of the same type of file and see if the two look anything alike? Or have you tried this already (sorry if I missed it in the thread)? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:33:16 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup ? Message-ID: As in the subject... I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else. x.x is set to NOBACKUP I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP because I did it purposefully %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files. The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains valid data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case. How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ? Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the file does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ? Thanks ! -- Syltrem http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS information and help, en français) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:06:29 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: wrote in message news:faa0e799-b226-421d-b64a-e965fb55e451@b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com... On Sep 18, 1:33 pm, "Syltrem" wrote: > As in the subject... > > I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else. > > x.x is set to NOBACKUP > > I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using > BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP > because I did it purposefully > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP > > But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files. > > The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by > looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains > valid > data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a > header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case. > > How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ? > Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal > file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the > file > does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ? > > This one is easy: the copied file has garbage in it. BACKUP told > you so. All DIRECTORY tells you is, essentially, about the file > organization and size, nothing about its contents (data). > > The reason for setting a file NOBACKUP is to avoid spending time > coping the contents of a file that are known will not be usable, > e.g., > a pagefile or swapfile, or indeed, certain kinds of database file > (which is why databases include their own backup utilities). > > You *must* use Backup/Ignore=NoBackup if you want to copy > the data in a file rather than just allocating space for it. > > -Ken Hi Ken I know all of that. If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=NOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ? That's what I want to know. As you sais there is garbage in my file. But the original file also contains data that looks like garbege to human eyes so I cannot tell just by looking at the file's contents. Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content is garbage". Thanks Syltrem ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 07:56:16 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: In article , "Syltrem" writes: > > How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ? > Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal > file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the file > does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ? If you copies the file/nobackup, then what is in the file is useless, unless the security settings on your system will allow you to use the new file to scavenge data from whatever was in those blocks before. Unless you happen to have been making and deleting lots of copies of the original file on the same disk, any resemblance between the data in the original and new is completly coincidental. Even if you have been making and deleting lots of copies the data wouldn't likely be where you expected it. BACKUP of a file marked /NOBACKUP, without overriding that, simply does not read the data blocks. The file header is all it has to read to create a matching file. If you had put it in a saveset instead of using BACKUP to copy the file, only the file header would actually be in the saveset. If you use COPY, however, /NOBACKUP is not relavent. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 07:57:35 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: In article , "Syltrem" writes: > > I know all of that. > If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=NOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ? You'll have to look at the data with something that can tell it's not right. > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content > is garbage". No. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:02:48 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" a écrit dans le message de news: dc03edcc-4bff-4eac-9a4f-fb88678ae220@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com... On Sep 18, 6:30 pm, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's > > content > > is garbage". > No. > > > > Well yes, in the backup container. > > Do you still have the container? > > Backup / list [/full] does not show it, but it knows it. > > > > I just hacked up a quick tool to display that flag. Thanks for spending time on this, but I used backup to move the file from disk to disk. No saveset. It appears like the file is bad (well that's not actually proven), but there's no way for me to tell. And others in this ng agree with that. I tried to find some recognizable pattern in the file that would tell if the data inside is good or not, but it is not conclusive. Some good files do not show the pattern and yet are usable. Point is, I always use /IGNORE=NOBACKP to move these files around. There's a problem with the software reading the copied files, and I cannot prove that the data is good. The program does not tell wheter it doesn't like the data in a specific file (there are a dozen of them), it just crashes. We donèt know why. So obviously they say that my file is probably bad. Is that a problem with the file, ? I don't know. I don't think there`s a way out of this. The worst thing is that after trying the operation a 3rd time, it succeeded. Did I really forget /INGORE=NOBACKUP 2 times ? Everything is possible, I guess, but there`s no way to tell if I did or not. Thanks for your thoughts. Syltrem ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:25:07 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: Syltrem wrote: > As in the subject... > > I have a source file x.x and a copy of that file somewhere else. > > x.x is set to NOBACKUP > > I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP > because I did it purposefully > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP > > But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files. > > The data in the file is cryptic and there is no way for me to know (by > looking at the contents of the file) if the copy of the file contains valid > data or not. I would have expected that such a file would just contain a > header and just nulls inside, but this is not the case. > > How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ? > Don't ask me to compare the 2 files. Let`s say I don`t have the oriiginal > file anymore. What information in the file header or elsewhere says the file > does not contain any data (as the BACKUP message says) ? > > Thanks ! > $ BACKUP /LIST=MUMBLE.LIS MUMBLE.BCK/SAVESET $ SEARCH MUMBLE.LIS X.X ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:30:23 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <48d2d680@flight> Syltrem wrote: > > > I know all of that. > If by mistake I forgot the /IGNORE=NOBACKUP, I can I tell I did so ? > > That's what I want to know. I think the general answer is "you can't". You could set the volumes to have highwater marking enabled, then the "junk" file would contain all zeros, However that can slow down file extend operations considerably. If your problem is more specific (eg these are Oracle tablespace files) then you could presumably write a program (or DCL script) to examine part of the file looking for some specific pattern that would be extremely unlikely to occur in a file of random blocks. I suppose the right answer may be "if you care about preserving the contents of your file don't set it "/NOBACKUP". > As you sais there is garbage in my file. But the original file also contains > data that looks like garbege to human eyes so I cannot tell just by looking > at the file's contents. > > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content > is garbage". No. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:29:24 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <48d30117$0$12367$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Syltrem wrote: > Is there a flag somewhere in the copied file that says "this file's content > is garbage". Nop. You would need to look at the logs of the backup to see what was done and if the data was copied or not. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:27:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <48d30097$0$12367$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Syltrem wrote: > I *know* the copy of the file was *not* copied using BACKUP/IGNORE=NOBACKUP > because I did it purposefully > %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP, X.X data not copied, file marked NOBACKUP This would be a serious bug. I did a disk to disk backup/image a couple days ago, and checking the log, I got no %BACKUP-I-NOBACKUP messages I had: $backup/image/ignore=(interlock,nobackup)/init/noalias/record - /progress_report=300 $disk4 $10$dqa0: I had warnings about files being opened for write, but none about the files marked nobackup. > But a DIR/FULL does not show any difference between the 2 files. That is correct. Restoring a file that was marked "nobackup" results in a file being created with the same attributes, including allocations and blocks used but with unusable data inside. > How do I tell the copy of the file has nothing good inside ? You would have to look at the backup logs or the save set to see if /ignore=nobackup was specified when the data was backed up. Question: If I backup/image/ignore=nobackup disk1: disk2:[000000]disk1.save/save and then backup/image disk2:[000000]disk1.save/save disk3: Would I need to add a /ignore=nobackup so that the restore operation would also ignore the nobackup bit in the saveset and copy the data from the saveset to the disk ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:54:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: How can I tell a file marked nobackup was backed up without ignore=nobackup Message-ID: <48d40438$0$12409$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Syltrem wrote: > The worst thing is that after trying the operation a 3rd time, it succeeded. > Did I really forget /INGORE=NOBACKUP 2 times ? > Everything is possible, I guess, but there`s no way to tell if I did or not. Is the /IGNORE a positional qualifier in backup ? Is it possible that placing it at the end would affect the destination and not the source ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Lusardi Subject: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Message-ID: <9d7c724a-1af6-490e-87fb-209b57ddb05d@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the forgotten letters in the newly created blanks. The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was an accident. :-) The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Message-ID: On Sep 22, 2:34 pm, Christopher Lusardi wrote: > If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the > Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow > key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to > go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire > rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to > insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the > forgotten letters in the newly created blanks. > > The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was > an accident. > :-) > > The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5... > > Chris Chris, I do not have a VAX/VMS 5.5 system to check this on, but depending upon your terminal, you should be able to reset the terminal width using SET TERMINAL/WIDTH=132. The cursor editing keys will then be usable for a longer line. Personally, I would create a command file and edit it using the editor. It is safer, and usable beyond the present login session. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:47:24 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Message-ID: <00A80052.F8C7B72F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <9d7c724a-1af6-490e-87fb-209b57ddb05d@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Christopher Lusardi writes: >If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the >Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow >key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to >go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire >rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to >insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the >forgotten letters in the newly created blanks. > >The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was >an accident. >:-) > >The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5... > >Chris Recall; ctrl H (goes to beginning of line); arrow-key to where you need to add charaters; ctrl-A to insert; enter characters; carriage-return to enter amended command. Example: $ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters $ $ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters -------------------------------cursor here ----------------------------^ type ctrl-H $ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters --^-----cursor here type arrows to move cursor $ ! this is a real long command line but I forgot to add two characters ------------------^-----cursor here ctrl-A to insert $ ! this is a really long command line but I forgot to add two characters type carrage-return -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:21:04 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Message-ID: Christopher Lusardi wrote: > If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the > Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. I have to use the up arrow > key to recall the previous command. I then use the left arrow key to > go to the start of the error that I typed. I then retype the entire > rest of the command. This takes a long time! Is there an easier way to > insert blanks in a previous command and then begin typing the > forgotten letters in the newly created blanks. > > The following sequence "control I" worked once for me. It probably was > an accident. > :-) > > The top left side of my show system command says VaxVMS V5.5... > > Chris Personaly, I always have SET TERM/INSERT in my login.com... Or (if on another system) use when needed. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:38:25 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: How do I add 2 letters to a long command at the prompt Message-ID: <48d84960$0$1574$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Christopher Lusardi wrote: > If I forgot to enter a few letters in an extremely long command at the > Vax prompt I am forced to do the following. If the command exceeds one line on the screen, then VMS is pretty bad at handling it. You need to erase characters from the end until the cursor moves to the last character on the line you need to edit. Then delete enough characters at end of line to make room for insertion. Then use the left arrow to move the cursor (without deleting) to the area where you need to insert characters, A to start inserting, insert your two characfters, then E to get to end of line, and then retype the complete remainder of the line which you had to erase. Old cisco switches have better command line editing than VMS. SET TERM/WIDTH=132 will allow you to recall the command on a longer line (132 instead of 80) and this makes its editing easier. Once done, you can set term/width=80 again. VMS 5.5 lacked certain recall buffer functionality which was added later on. On recent versions of VMS, you could RECALL/output=myfile.txt then edit myfile.txt and then RECALL/input=myfile.txt which would reload the recall buffer with your corrected command. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:41:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file Message-ID: <48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> ajmiester@gmail.com wrote: > Hi > I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir. > I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use > that to check file sizes. HELP OPEN HELP READ HELP CLOSE This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the contents going into a symbol. Then: HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can get). You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, and once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol. F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:05:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file Message-ID: <2d3d2419-8e7f-4a5b-b348-81d2ed257017@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com> On Sep 17, 4:20=A0pm, ajmies...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi > =A0 I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir. What a 'waste'/encumbrance to put it in a file. DCL's F$SEARCH will gladly find just the right files for you. files.lis > ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1 > I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis So that's all of them, or might there be other file in the list? Or are you seeking to look INTO the zip files and size up teh contents? > and use that to check file sizes. How do you want to do the 'check'? What data is available to check against? That every much will define the 'right' tool for the job. > Does any one have recommendations on how that can be accomplished. 1) get more clear instructions. 2) Write a program to accomplish those instructions 3) Run the program (or script, or ...) Richard already showed a basic DCL loop to get going. Here is a perl variant: Let's create a list of files: $ dir/nohead/notrail sys$system:set*.exe/out=3Dfiles.tmp Now list the sizes of the files in that list: $ perl -lne "chomp; printf qq(%9d %s\n), -s $_, $_" files.tmp 386560 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SET.EXE;1 56832 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETAUDIT.EXE;1 : Now filter for files with a sub-pattern "hos". $ perl -ne "chomp; printf (qq(%9d %s\n), -s $_, $_) if /hos/i" files.tmp 72192 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETSHOSECUR.EXE;1 66560 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETSHOSERVER.EXE;1 315392 SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SETSHOSHADOW.EXE;1 And now, look ma no hands.... $ perl -e "for () { printf qq(%9d %s\n), -s $_, $_ }" 72192 sys$common:[sysexe]setshosecur.exe 66560 sys$common:[sysexe]setshoserver.exe 315392 sys$common:[sysexe]setshoshadow.exe Hein. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:15:35 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file Message-ID: <_vsAk.139947$5p1.37797@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably And try $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something" If you know programming, you can do it, now Syltrem "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > ajmiester@gmail.com wrote: >> Hi >> I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir. > >> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use >> that to check file sizes. > > HELP OPEN > HELP READ > HELP CLOSE > > This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the > contents going into a symbol. > > Then: > > HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file > size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can > get). > > You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the > equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, and > once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol. > > F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:40:33 -0700 (PDT) From: ajmiester@gmail.com Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file Message-ID: On Sep 18, 9:15=A0am, "Syltrem" wrote: > Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably > And try > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something" > > If you know programming, you can do it, now > > Syltrem > > "JF Mezei" wrote in message > > news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > > > > > ajmies...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Hi > >> =A0 I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir. > > >> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use > >> that to check file sizes. > > > HELP OPEN > > HELP READ > > HELP CLOSE > > > This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the > > contents going into a symbol. > > > Then: > > > HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES =A0will tell you how you can get the fil= e > > size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can > > get). > > > You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the > > equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, an= d > > once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol. > > > F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific Bro files.lis --> Files.lis is a list file which includes information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1 ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1 I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames without the zip extension from the Files.lis file I am new to DCL prog and tried the following $ chkname=3D(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip extensions $ show symbol chkname $ filetype1=3Df$extract(16,45,"chkname") ---> extracts files without the extensions $ show symbol filetype1 But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for Aj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:04:02 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file Message-ID: ajmiester@gmail.com wrote: > On Sep 18, 9:15 am, "Syltrem" wrote: >> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably >> And try >> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something" >> >> If you know programming, you can do it, now >> >> Syltrem >> >> "JF Mezei" wrote in message >> >> news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... >> >> >> >>> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Hi >>>> I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir. >>>> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use >>>> that to check file sizes. >>> HELP OPEN >>> HELP READ >>> HELP CLOSE >>> This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the >>> contents going into a symbol. >>> Then: >>> HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file >>> size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can >>> get). >>> You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the >>> equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, and >>> once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol. >>> F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text - >> - Show quoted text - > > Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific > > Bro files.lis --> Files.lis is a list file which includes > information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro > is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file > > ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1 > ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1 > > I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files > uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference > is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames > without the zip extension from the Files.lis file > > I am new to DCL prog and tried the following > > $ chkname=(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip > extensions > $ show symbol chkname > $ filetype1=f$extract(16,45,"chkname") ---> extracts files without > the extensions > $ show symbol filetype1 > > But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for > Aj $ HELP LEXICAL F$PARSE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT) From: ajmiester@gmail.com Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file Message-ID: <426b8e0e-8165-4ebe-a64a-85d825854a46@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 1:04=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > ajmies...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sep 18, 9:15 am, "Syltrem" wrote: > >> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably > >> And try > >> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something" > > >> If you know programming, you can do it, now > > >> Syltrem > > >> "JF Mezei" wrote in message > > >>news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > > >>> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote: > >>>> Hi > >>>> =A0 I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir. > >>>> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use > >>>> that to check file sizes. > >>> HELP OPEN > >>> HELP READ > >>> HELP CLOSE > >>> This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the > >>> contents going into a symbol. > >>> Then: > >>> HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES =A0will tell you how you can get the f= ile > >>> size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can > >>> get). > >>> You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the > >>> equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, = and > >>> once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol. > >>> F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text - > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific > > > Bro files.lis =A0 --> =A0Files.lis is a list file which includes > > information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro > > is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file > > > ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1 > > > I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files > > uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference > > is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames > > without the zip extension from the Files.lis file > > > I am new to DCL prog and tried the following > > > $ chkname=3D(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip > > extensions > > $ show symbol chkname > > $ filetype1=3Df$extract(16,45,"chkname") =A0---> extracts files without > > the extensions > > $ show symbol filetype1 > > > But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for > > Aj > > $ HELP LEXICAL F$PARSE- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Thanx, that was helpfull ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:35:44 -0400 From: "Syltrem" Subject: Re: How to retreive values from a file Message-ID: HELP is your friend VMS uses english terms in all commands so it`s easy to find your way through HELP Syltrem wrote in message news:426b8e0e-8165-4ebe-a64a-85d825854a46@g17g2000prg.googlegroups.com... On Sep 18, 1:04 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > ajmies...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sep 18, 9:15 am, "Syltrem" wrote: > >> Also HELP LEXICALS F$FILE, probably > >> And try > >> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "something" > > >> If you know programming, you can do it, now > > >> Syltrem > > >> "JF Mezei" wrote in message > > >>news:48d1b283$0$12380$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > > >>> ajmies...@gmail.com wrote: > >>>> Hi > >>>> I have a files.lis file which includes a list of files in a dir. > >>>> I am looking for a script to extract file*.zip from File.lis and use > >>>> that to check file sizes. > >>> HELP OPEN > >>> HELP READ > >>> HELP CLOSE > >>> This gets you to a DCL script that reads the file line by line, the > >>> contents going into a symbol. > >>> Then: > >>> HELP LEXICAL F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES will tell you how you can get the file > >>> size when you supply it with a file name. (and lots more info you can > >>> get). > >>> You may also be interested in F$SEARCH("file*.zip") which will do the > >>> equivalent of a directory function for you, giving you file by file, > >>> and > >>> once it has matched all files, it gives you an empty symbol. > >>> F$SEARCH is HELP LEXICAL F$SEARCH- Hide quoted text - > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Thank you for all your resonses. I should have been more specific > > > Bro files.lis --> Files.lis is a list file which includes > > information for the list of zips files in a partricular location. Bro > > is the browse command to view records in the file.lis file > > > ALPHA:[Data]file1.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file2.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file3.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file4.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file5.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file6.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file7.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file8.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file9.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file10.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file11.ZIP;1 > > ALPHA:[Data]file12.ZIP;1 > > > I am checking if zip files are not empty and then checking files > > uncompressed from the zip. The filenames are same, the only difference > > is the extension. Therefore I am trying to extract the filenames > > without the zip extension from the Files.lis file > > > I am new to DCL prog and tried the following > > > $ chkname=(search FILES.LIS zip) ---> extracts files with zip > > extensions > > $ show symbol chkname > > $ filetype1=f$extract(16,45,"chkname") ---> extracts files without > > the extensions > > $ show symbol filetype1 > > > But it isnt giviing me the result I am looking for > > Aj > > $ HELP LEXICAL F$PARSE- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Thanx, that was helpfull ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:12:57 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: HP to axe 24,6000 jobs Message-ID: <11ee2$48d5210d$4c0aaa0d$30973@TEKSAVVY.COM> "Phaeton" wrote in message news:48cf5aa9$1@news.comindico.com.au... > JF Mezei wrote: >> BBC reports this morning that HP is to axe 24,600 jobs worldwide, half >> of which will be in the USA. There is mention that is is related to the >> recent acquisition of EDS. This cut represents 7.4% of its workforce. >> >> Since VMS was recently compacted from ist original ZKO size to fit into >> a couple of spare offices in the basement of some existing HP building, >> it is not known how many job cuts VMS will get this time around. >> >> Good luck to VMS engineering/admin staff. > > > > http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/16/2365482.htm?section=justin > > > Hewlett-Packard to slash 24,600 jobs > > > United States technology giant Hewlett-Packard has announced it will slash > 24,600 jobs worldwide over the next three years. > > The cuts are part of its integration with computer services firm > Electronic Data Systems. > > The job cuts would allow HP "to restructure the EDS business group to > streamline costs, > invest in growth and drive shareholder value," HP said in a statement. > > About 7.5 per cent of the combined work force would be affected, with > about half of the > cuts taking place in the United States, HP said. > > The work force reduction aims to "streamline the combined company's > services businesses," > and once complete is expected to "result in annual cost savings of > approximately $2.2 billion." > > In May, HP inked a deal to buy the Texas-based technology company for > $US25 per share. > After approval by shareholders as well as US and foreign regulators, the > acquisition was > finalised in August. > > The new HP services includes annual revenues of more than $47 billion and > 210,000 > employees, operating in more than 80 countries. > > The deal was expected to create a global powerhouse in computer services > to compete > against IBM. > > - AFP > -------------------------------------------- > > Cheers, Csaba When announcements like these are made the majority of the cuts will be made in the divisions mentioned in the news release, but large numbers of cuts will be made in other divisions as well -- using the big cuts as a smokescreen. Companies the size of HP will aggregate the upcoming cuts into one announcement rather than sending out press releases month after month for 500 jobs lost here or there. One press release, one news cycle, now look at all the shiny new toys we have to sell you. Story over. Next. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:50:16 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Intermittent RWSCS state Message-ID: For a sanity-check, you might run LOCKTIME.COM from the V6 Freeware CD directory [KP_LOCKTOOLS] to see what averasge lock-request time is from each of the nodes to each of the other nodes, to see if a node or path seems unusually slow. If you run LOCK_ACTV_*.COM (obtain that from the same place) you'll get a cluster-wide summary of the locking activity. Look for cases where the node with the highest locking activity rate on a busy tree is not the master node (the master node is indicated with an asterisk). VMS tries to keep the lock tree mastered on the node with the highest activity level at any given point in time, but use of non-zero PE1 values or an imbalance of LOCKDIRWT values between nodes (or saturation of a CPU in interrupt state) can prevent lock mastership from being on the optimal node. If you run LCKQUE.COM from the same place you can detect cases where process are forced to wait for their turn at locks because of slowness. Availability Manager's Lock Contention data collection can also help with this. Saturation of a CPU in interrupt state could cause it to respond slowly to SCS messages (including lock requests) and thus cause RWSCS states on other nodes. I'd check T4 data (or use $MONITOR MODES/ALL/INTERVAL=1/CPU=(0,1,2...), looking for interrupt state time above 80% or so on any CPU in the box. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:38:02 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: Is there an updated Ghostscript for VMS? Message-ID: Jeffrey H. Coffield wrote: > I use Ghostscript a lot on OpenVMS and got several earlier versions to > compile so I feel your pain. Please post the fixes when you are done. I > can provide some serious testing on a new version fairly quickly. > I've tested it on a few of the examples, converting them to PDF (this is the function I mainly wanted it for). Seems to work ok. I have made a zipped backup of the distro with my changes in it, you can download it at http://records.viu.ca/~dunnett/gs863vms.zip. It builds clean under VMS 8.3 on Alpha and Itanium. Use the file build_vms.com There's a text file with diffs of the files I changed at http://records.viu.ca/~dunnett/readme.changes Thanks to all for your help, I'll stop annoying everyone now. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:53:31 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Jabber & VMS - what happens next? Message-ID: <2639$48d525a0$4c0aaa0d$8120@TEKSAVVY.COM> http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2008/corp_091908.html?POSITION=LINK&COUNTRY_SITE=us&CAMPAIGN=NewsAtCiscoLatestNewsfromCDCHP&CREATIVE=LINK1&REFERRING_SITE=CISCO.COMHOMEPAGE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:27:38 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Jabber & VMS - what happens next? Message-ID: <92050827-925a-4b6e-8a1c-d07eae224515@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 20, 5:53=A0pm, "John Smith" wrote: > http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2008/corp_091908.html?POSITION=3DLINK&CO..= . CommunigatePro runs on VMS and does instant messaging. I would not be surprised if it can talk to Jabber based systems as those use a commonly implemented IM protocol. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:47:05 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Jabber & VMS - what happens next? Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED60D7DC7@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: IanMiller [mailto:gxys@uk2.net] > Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 12:28 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Jabber & VMS - what happens next? > > On Sep 20, 5:53 pm, "John Smith" wrote: > > > http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2008/corp_091908.html?POSITION=3DLINK&CO.. > . > > > CommunigatePro runs on VMS and does instant messaging. I would not be > surprised if it can talk to Jabber based systems as those use a > commonly implemented IM protocol. Just to emphasize Ian's note on Communigate Pro - it runs on Alpha and Integrity. It can also be used to replace Exchange back end servers with A stable, secure, HA alternative & still keep the Outlook client (or just about any other email client). For those who would like a pretty cool demo of Communigate Pro, check out: http://www.communigate.com/enterprise/pronto.html (Pronto demo very cool) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/mail.html (bit dated as current V5.2 is out for Alpha as well with more features) http://www.communigate.com/enterprise/large_uc.html (features) They also have free try before you buy version available that is restricted to 5 accounts for testing out. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:34:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Loose Cannon-dian Message-ID: In article <6jd269F2n1bdU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > You make statements like this and accuse others of FUD? Just because > you have a bias against MS doesn't mean any of the crap you spout about > its security are actually true. Just because your Gramma's WindowsME > got hacked doesn't mean there are no serious Windows Servers running > securely. ROTFLOL. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:18:10 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: Loose Cannon-dian Message-ID: bugs@signedness.org skrev: > On Sep 15, 5:42 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > Koehler) wrote: >> In article <1cddb0fc-c644-4c38-9d33-0825a9a4b...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, b...@signedness.org writes: >> >> >> >>> So let me ask you what mechanisms VMS have in place to make it harder/ >>> prevent buggy programs from being exploited? >> On VMS, even if you have a fully priviledges account, you don't >> automagically get to exhaust any resource other than disk space. >> For all the others you have to add code to raise your limits. >> > > Well obviously you can do that on UNIX too (change root's resource > allocation).. The resource allocation control you have in Unix is nothing like in VMS. There is a lot of things that you can't limit in Unix. The two are in fact not even comparable in this aspect. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:24:02 -0700 (PDT) From: vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de Subject: mailing list GW OK? Message-ID: Hi, I saw several messages in the newsgroup comp.os.vms that are not sent to my email account? Do others mailing list subscribers see the same problem or is it just my local problem? regards Eberhard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:51:23 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: mailing list GW OK? Message-ID: In article , vaxinf@chemie.uni-konstanz.de wrote: >Hi, > >I saw several messages in the newsgroup comp.os.vms that are not sent >to my email account? > >Do others mailing list subscribers see the same problem or is it just >my local problem? > >regards >Eberhard Hi Eberhard, During the SMG "fun", I noticed a lot of messages were missing from INFO-VAX (I'm assuming that this is the email list that you are referring to). Google groups kept me up-to-date until I bit the bullet, and unsubscribed from INFO-VAX, and started running my own news client on my VMS machine. I can say with almost total certainty that I've not missed a message on c.o.v. since. INFO-VAX is a good resource if you are limited to email access on the 'net, but it seems to be limited. I wonder if some of the messages were "quarantined" by questionable language, or some other form of filtering. Would the moderator of INFO-VAX be available to comment? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:38:33 -0600 From: Dan O'Reilly Subject: Manipulating debug and traceback flags Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080919113643.02066888@raptor.psccos.com> I'm looking for a couple of old programs, called SETEXEFLAGS and PATCH_TRACEBACK, that used to be hanging around in cyberspace someplace. I need these to manipulate the TRACEBACK flag in an AXP image. While I can probably figure it out, it's easier to just compile & run something existing. ------ +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ | Dan O'Reilly | "There are 10 types of people in this | | Principal Engineer | world: those who understand binary | | Process Software | and those who don't." | | http://www.process.com | | +-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:16:39 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Manipulating debug and traceback flags Message-ID: <00A7FDF3.2DA2596B@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <6.1.2.0.2.20080919113643.02066888@raptor.psccos.com>, Dan O'Reilly writes: >I'm looking for a couple of old programs, called SETEXEFLAGS and >PATCH_TRACEBACK, that used to be hanging around in cyberspace someplace. I >need these to manipulate the TRACEBACK flag in an AXP image. While I can >probably figure it out, it's easier to just compile & run something >existing. What version of VMS? If there PATCH, I can tell you how to do it quickly. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:01:01 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole' games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found, isn't helping me out :-/.... Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated (or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still love to see the correct source code here)... Regards, Joe ~~ $ macro putqio.mar .word 0 ; ^ %IMAC-E-DATINCODE, data in code stream at line number 75 in file WOPR_USER: [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 PUT_QIO:: ^ %IMAC-E-GLOBENTRY, global entry point PUT_QIO must be declared at line number 74 in file WOPR_USER: [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 .end ^ %IMAC-E-PREVERROR, previous errors prevent further analysis at line number 86 in file WOPR_USER: [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 ~~~ putqio.mar ; PUTQIO - contains two related functions, PUT_BUFFER and PUT_QIO. ; PUT_BUFFER accepts an (row,col) cursor address, and a ; string. Cursor positioning characters are added into ; the buffer in front of the string. Buffer dumps if it ; becomes too full. ; PUT_QIO performs the buffer dump operation. It can be ; called externally, or by PUT_BUFFER. ; ; ; Globals used: (Declared in MORIA pascal code) ; cursor_r: array of 24 strings (6 bytes) ; curlen_r: length of each row string ; cursor_c: array of 80 strings (6 bytes) ; curlen_c: length of each col string ; cursor_l: Total length of row and col ; row_first: Boolean (1,0) ; 1 - Row,Col format ; 0 - Col,Row format ; ; Registers: ; R0 Used by MOVC ; R1 Used by MOVC ; R2 Used by MOVC ; R3 Used by MOVC ; R4 Used by MOVC ; R5 Used by MOVC ; ; This IO routine does no index checking. ; .title PUT_QIO Build and dump IO buffer\ .ident /put_qio/ .psect IOBUF$DATA ; IO$_WRITEVBLK: .long 48 ; See STARLET ($IODEF) out_buf: .blkb 1024 ; Size in bytes of buffer out_len: .long 0 ; Current length of buffer ; ; .psect IO$CODE,pic,con,rel,lcl,shr,exe,rd,nowrt,2 .entry PUT_BUFFER,^M ; movab out_buf,r3 ; Address of output buffer. addl2 out_len,r3 ; Buffer may be partially full. cmpl row_first,#0 ; Test for row first bgtr 1$ ; Branch to row,col format ; Col,Row format mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col. movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord. movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters. mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row. movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord. movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters. brb 2$ ; Branch to copy string 1$: ; Row,Col format mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row. movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord. movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters. mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col. movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord. movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters. 2$: ; Copy String tstw @4(ap) ; No string? beql 3$ ; No move needed. movl 4(ap),r1 ; Move address of string arg. movc3 @4(ap),2(r1),(r3) ; Move string arg into output buff. 3$: addw3 cursor_l,@4(ap),r1 ; Total length of new output addw2 r1,out_len ; Total length of saved output cmpw out_len,#900 ; Buffer getting full? bgtr DUMP_QIO ; Output the buffer... ret ; return from PUT_BUFFER ; ; PUT_QIO entry point PUT_QIO:: .word 0 ; DUMP_QIO: $QIOW_S EFN=#6, - ; Unique event flag CHAN=channel, - ; Output the buffer FUNC=IO$_WRITEVBLK, - ; Write virtual block P1=out_buf, - ; Address of buffer P2=out_len ; Buffers current length ; movw #0,out_len ; Clear buffer; ret ; Return from PUT_QIO ; .end ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:56:26 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: <00A7FE1A.4361D006@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , jferraro writes: >Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole' >games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying >to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble >with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found, >isn't helping me out :-/.... > >Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated >(or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still >love to see the correct source code here)... > >Regards, > >Joe > >~~ > >$ macro putqio.mar > > .word 0 ; >^ >%IMAC-E-DATINCODE, data in code stream >at line number 75 in file WOPR_USER: >[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 > >PUT_QIO:: >^ >%IMAC-E-GLOBENTRY, global entry point PUT_QIO must be declared >at line number 74 in file WOPR_USER: >[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 > > .end >^ >%IMAC-E-PREVERROR, previous errors prevent further analysis >at line number 86 in file WOPR_USER: >[USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 > > >~~~ putqio.mar > > ; PUTQIO - contains two related functions, PUT_BUFFER and >PUT_QIO. > ; PUT_BUFFER accepts an (row,col) cursor address, and >a > ; string. Cursor positioning characters are added >into > ; the buffer in front of the string. Buffer dumps if >it > ; becomes too full. > ; PUT_QIO performs the buffer dump operation. It can >be > ; called externally, or by PUT_BUFFER. > ; > ; > ; Globals used: (Declared in MORIA pascal code) > ; cursor_r: array of 24 strings (6 bytes) > ; curlen_r: length of each row string > ; cursor_c: array of 80 strings (6 bytes) > ; curlen_c: length of each col string > ; cursor_l: Total length of row and col > ; row_first: Boolean (1,0) > ; 1 - Row,Col format > ; 0 - Col,Row format > ; > ; Registers: > ; R0 Used by MOVC > ; R1 Used by MOVC > ; R2 Used by MOVC > ; R3 Used by MOVC > ; R4 Used by MOVC > ; R5 Used by MOVC > ; > ; This IO routine does no index checking. > ; > .title PUT_QIO Build and dump IO buffer\ > .ident /put_qio/ > .psect IOBUF$DATA > ; > IO$_WRITEVBLK: .long 48 ; See STARLET ($IODEF) > out_buf: .blkb 1024 ; Size in bytes of buffer > out_len: .long 0 ; Current length of buffer > ; > ; > .psect IO$CODE,pic,con,rel,lcl,shr,exe,rd,nowrt,2 > .entry PUT_BUFFER,^M > ; > movab out_buf,r3 ; Address of output buffer. > addl2 out_len,r3 ; Buffer may be partially >full. > cmpl row_first,#0 ; Test for row first > bgtr 1$ ; Branch to row,col format > ; Col,Row format > mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col. > movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord. > movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters. > mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row. > movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord. > movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters. > brb 2$ ; Branch to copy string >1$: ; Row,Col format > mull3 #12,8(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for row. > movab cursor_r-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed row coord. > movc3 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) ; Move row cursor characters. > mull3 #12,12(ap),r1 ; (8 bytes * index) for col. > movab cursor_c-10[r1],r1 ; Address of needed col coord. > movc3 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) ; Move col cursor characters. >2$: ; Copy String > tstw @4(ap) ; No string? > beql 3$ ; No move needed. > movl 4(ap),r1 ; Move address of string arg. > movc3 @4(ap),2(r1),(r3) ; Move string arg into output >buff. >3$: > addw3 cursor_l,@4(ap),r1 ; Total length of new output > addw2 r1,out_len ; Total length of saved output > cmpw out_len,#900 ; Buffer getting full? > bgtr DUMP_QIO ; Output the buffer... > ret ; return from PUT_BUFFER > ; > ; PUT_QIO entry point >PUT_QIO:: > .word 0 ; delete: .word 0 insert: .call_entry >DUMP_QIO: > $QIOW_S EFN=#6, - ; Unique event flag > CHAN=channel, - ; Output the buffer > FUNC=IO$_WRITEVBLK, - ; Write virtual block > P1=out_buf, - ; Address of buffer > P2=out_len ; Buffers current length > ; > movw #0,out_len ; Clear buffer; > ret ; Return from PUT_QIO > ; > .end -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:15:37 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: jferraro writes: >Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole' >games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying >to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble >with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found, >isn't helping me out :-/.... >Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated >(or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still >love to see the correct source code here)... The macro assembler (really compiler) on Alpha and Itanic is real picky about some things the VAX assembler has no problem with. One is that entry points must be properly defined. Use a .entry statement for the putqio and that should take care of the problem. That's really the only problem. .entry putqio,^M<> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 03:54:19 -0700 (PDT) From: urbancamo Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: <44659357-0359-4304-b495-7b5e34cf020c@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> When you get it working, be sure to post a link to the binaries on comp.os.vms. Alternatively, I'll upload them to my VMS stuff page. Good job! Regards, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:52:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: <1a59b7ac-0abb-41fe-bd84-d8570a4caf0a@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On Sep 19, 6:01=A0pm, jferraro wrote: > Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole' > games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying > to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble > with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found, > isn't helping me out :-/.... > > Any help or a point in the right direction would be much appreciated > (or if anyone knows where I can get the binaries - though I'd still > love to see the correct source code here)... > > Regards, > > Joe > > ~~ > > $ macro putqio.mar > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .word =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; > ^ > %IMAC-E-DATINCODE, data in code stream > at line number 75 in file WOPR_USER: > [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 > > PUT_QIO:: > ^ > %IMAC-E-GLOBENTRY, global entry point PUT_QIO must be declared > at line number 74 in file WOPR_USER: > [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .end > ^ > %IMAC-E-PREVERROR, previous errors prevent further analysis > at line number 86 in file WOPR_USER: > [USER.JFERRARO.MORIA.SOURCE.MACRO]PUTQIO.MAR;9 > > ~~~ putqio.mar > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; PUTQIO - contains two related functions, PUT_BUFFER and > PUT_QIO. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0PUT_BUFFER accepts an (row,col) curs= or address, and > a > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0string. =A0Cursor positioning charac= ters are added > into > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the buffer in front of the string. = =A0Buffer dumps if > it > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0becomes too full. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0PUT_QIO performs the buffer dump ope= ration. =A0It can > be > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0called externally, or by PUT_BUFFER. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 Globals used: =A0 (Declared in MORIA pascal= code) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cursor_r: =A0 =A0 =A0 array= of 24 strings (6 bytes) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 curlen_r: =A0 =A0 =A0 lengt= h of each row string > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cursor_c: =A0 =A0 =A0 array= of 80 strings (6 bytes) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 curlen_c: =A0 =A0 =A0 lengt= h of each col string > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cursor_l: =A0 =A0 =A0 Total= length of row and col > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 row_first: =A0 =A0 =A0Boole= an (1,0) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 1 - Row,Col format > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 0 - Col,Row format > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 Registers: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R0 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R1 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R2 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R3 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R4 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 R5 =A0 =A0 =A0Used by MOVC > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; =A0 =A0 =A0 This IO routine does no index checking. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .title =A0PUT_QIO =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Build and dump IO buffe= r\ > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .ident =A0/put_qio/ > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .psect =A0IOBUF$DATA > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 IO$_WRITEVBLK: =A0.long =A0 48 =A0 =A0 =A0; See STARLET (= $IODEF) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 out_buf: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0.blkb =A0 1024 =A0 =A0; Size in b= ytes of buffer > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 out_len: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0.long =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Current= length of buffer > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .psect =A0IO$CODE,pic,con,rel,lcl,shr,exe,rd,nowrt,2 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .entry =A0PUT_BUFFER,^M > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 out_buf,r3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address= of output buffer. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 addl2 =A0 out_len,r3 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Buffer = may be partially > full. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cmpl =A0 =A0row_first,#0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Test fo= r row first > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 bgtr =A0 =A01$ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0; Branch to row,col format > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; Col,Row format > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,12(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; (8 bytes * = index) for col. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_c-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need= ed col coord. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move col cursor= characters. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,8(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; (8 bytes = * index) for row. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_r-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need= ed row coord. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move row cursor= characters. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 brb =A0 =A0 2$ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0; Branch to copy string > 1$: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 ; Row,Col format > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,8(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; (8 bytes = * index) for row. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_r-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need= ed row coord. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_r,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move row cursor= characters. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 mull3 =A0 #12,12(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; (8 bytes * = index) for col. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movab =A0 cursor_c-10[r1],r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Address of need= ed col coord. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 curlen_c,(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0; Move col cursor= characters. > 2$: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 ; Copy String > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 tstw =A0 =A0@4(ap) =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; N= o string? > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 beql =A0 =A03$ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0; No move needed. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movl =A0 =A04(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Mov= e address of string arg. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movc3 =A0 @4(ap),2(r1),(r3) =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Move string arg= into output > buff. > 3$: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 addw3 =A0 cursor_l,@4(ap),r1 =A0 =A0 =A0; Total length of= new output > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 addw2 =A0 r1,out_len =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Total l= ength of saved output > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cmpw =A0 =A0out_len,#900 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Buffer = getting full? > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 bgtr =A0 =A0DUMP_QIO =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Out= put the buffer... > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ret =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 ; return from PUT_BUFFER > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; PUT_QIO entry point > PUT_QIO:: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .word =A0 0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; > DUMP_QIO: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 $QIOW_S EFN=3D#6, - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Unique = event flag > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CHAN=3Dchannel, - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Outpu= t the buffer > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 FUNC=3DIO$_WRITEVBLK, - =A0 ; Write virtu= al block > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 P1=3Dout_buf, - =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ; Add= ress of buffer > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 P2=3Dout_len =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0;= Buffers current length > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 movw =A0 =A0#0,out_len =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0; Clear= buffer; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ret =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 ; Return from PUT_QIO > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 ; > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 .end Joe, The MACRO-32 Assembler on the VAX (MACRO32) just converts lines into binary and writes an object deck. As has been noted, the task of the MACRO32 Compiler on Alpha and Itanium is a bit more complex. On VAX, all that is necessary is that the bits are in memory as defined by the architecture. On the other architectures, the MACRO32 compiler compiles the code. Using the example of the .WORD directive, that is a data directive. While it generates the correct bits, it is ambiguous as to how those bits are actually used (e.g., executable or data). There is a MACRO32 porting guide in the documentation set on the OpenVMS www site at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5601/5601PRO.HTML - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:07:42 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: <00A7FEA1.F26C26C6@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1a59b7ac-0abb-41fe-bd84-d8570a4caf0a@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter writes: >{...snip...} >There is a MACRO32 porting guide in the documentation set on the >OpenVMS www site at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5601/5601PRO.HTML The only problem was the stupid .WORD 0 declaring the procedure entry point. I hated to see this in VAX code too! Bob, please, please, please fix your newsreader settings. The enitre portion of the original posting which you quoted was q-p'ed the news- reader you used to post your reply. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:02:53 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: On Sep 20, 6:54=A0am, urbancamo wrote: > When you get it working, be sure to post a link to the binaries on > comp.os.vms. > Alternatively, I'll upload them to my VMS stuff page. > > Good job! > > Regards, Mark Thanks VAXman, that took care of it - darn it, I was very close ;-). The binaries, should anyone desire, can be pulled from: http://wopr.adelphos.org/~jpf/src/ (you're also welcome to login and try em out -- telnet to the above host... login info displayed in the banner) Thanks again for the help! Joe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:39:02 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <1a59b7ac-0abb-41fe-bd84-d8570a4caf0a@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter writes: > >>{...snip...} >>There is a MACRO32 porting guide in the documentation set on the >>OpenVMS www site at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/5601/5601PRO.HTML > > > The only problem was the stupid .WORD 0 declaring the procedure entry > point. I hated to see this in VAX code too! > > Bob, please, please, please fix your newsreader settings. The enitre > portion of the original posting which you quoted was q-p'ed the news- > reader you used to post your reply. > > I read this and my first thought was "What the heck is a .word 0 doing in the middle of code? Doesn't it HALT on the VAX when it gets there?" Then I realized it was a CALL entry mask, telling it to save nothing. IIRC, .MASK and .ENTRY have existed from day 1 (at least in field test months before the release of VAX/VMS V1.0) and would have solved this. You wouldn't have got the "Data in a code .PSECT" error, and if the code had used .MASK, the compiler *might* have done the right thing by assuming a .ENTRY because of the .MASK and compiled okay with just an informational, though putting in the .ENTRY is (or better, a .CALL_ENTRY with an appropriate set of hints to the compiler) the correct fix, as VAXman says. BTW, .CALL_ENTRY is backwards- compatible with the VAX MACRO-32 Assembler, at least from V6.0 on. and .ENTRY all the way back to the dawn of time. Where did the horrendous programming style of using .WORD instead of .ENTRY come from? (I just checked and discovered it was the VAX Architecture book. Both the 1979-1980 edition and the 1981 edition use it in their programming examples, the version in the 1981 edition being horribly mangled by spurious line wraps.) I'm sure the V1.0 Macro and Procedure Calling Standards Manuals did it right, though, because I would have found it totally intolerable to have to construct register masks in binary :-) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:57:36 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: In article , jferraro wrote: [...] >The binaries, should anyone desire, can be pulled from: > > http://wopr.adelphos.org/~jpf/src/ > >(you're also welcome to login and try em out -- telnet to the above >host... login info displayed in the banner) > >Thanks again for the help! > >Joe Thanks for the new resource; however, when I log in and attempt to run Moria, I always get a message: GAMES 1. The Dungeons of Moria v4.8 - (1985) 2. The Dungeons of Moria v5 / U. Buffalo - (1989) x. eXit Choice: 2 *** ERROR : Terminal not supported *** See TERMDEF.PAS for definning new terminals. *** Terminals supported: VT52 Set Terminal/VT52 VT100 Set Terminal/VT100 VT200 Set Terminal/VT200 VT300 Set Terminal/VT300 Teleray 10 Set Terminal/FT1 ADM-3A Set Terminal/FT2 ADDS100 Set Terminal/FT3 IBM3101 Set Terminal/FT4 This happens even if I set my terminal type to VT100 before I TELNET into your machine. There seems to be no way to reset the terminal type in your menu system; can you provide a way to do so? Otherwise, a nice, fast machine (rx2600?). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: > > Choice: 2 > *** ERROR : Terminal not supported *** > See TERMDEF.PAS for definning new terminals. > *** Terminals supported: > =A0 =A0 VT52 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Set Terminal/VT52 > =A0 =A0 VT100 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/VT100 > =A0 =A0 VT200 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/VT200 > =A0 =A0 VT300 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/VT300 > =A0 =A0 Teleray 10 =A0 Set Terminal/FT1 > =A0 =A0 ADM-3A =A0 =A0 =A0 Set Terminal/FT2 > =A0 =A0 ADDS100 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/FT3 > =A0 =A0 IBM3101 =A0 =A0 =A0Set Terminal/FT4 > > This happens even if I set my terminal type to VT100 before I TELNET into= your > machine. =A0There seems to be no way to reset the terminal type in your m= enu > system; can you provide a way to do so? > > Otherwise, a nice, fast machine (rx2600?). It's actually a zx6, though I haven't seen many differences between it at the rx26s (MP, dual P/S, etc..) With regards to term... I've not seen the issue elsewhere... I'll have a look at the menu... GEIN $ set term/vt100 GEIN $ telnet wopr.adelphos.org Trying... Connected to WOPR.ADELPHOS.ORG <.snip> GAMES 1. The Dungeons of Moria v4.8 - (1985) 2. The Dungeons of Moria v5 / U. Buffalo - (1989) x. eXit Choice: 2 ************************* ** Moria UB 5.00 ** ************************* COPYRIGHT (c) Robert Alan Koeneke Programers : Robert Alan Koeneke / University of Oklahoma Jimmey Wayne Todd / University of Oklahoma Modified by: Bill Palter / State University of New York Nick B Triantos / State University of New York Dungeon Master: This file may contain updates and news ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:42:10 -0700 (PDT) From: urbancamo Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: <79cf8e54-90cb-43c7-b3a5-d70ce3e61cdd@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> If you are using linux, set TERM=vt220 before issuing the telnet command. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 2008 12:46:38 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: In article , jferraro writes: > Whilst I know very few folks are [anymore] interested in good ole' > games like moria, I still seem to get a kick out of them and am trying > to bring some of them over to I64. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble > with macro, and reading what little bit of online lit. I've found, > isn't helping me out :-/.... Judging by the listing you showed, this code was never ported from VAX to Alpha. The guide to porting Macro-32 from VAX to Alpha should give all the steps that will make this code compatable with the Macr-32 compilers and both Alpha and I64. And the VAX Macro assembler has been updated to be pretty happy with the new code, too. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:02:17 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: Moria I64 and problems with macro Message-ID: In article <79cf8e54-90cb-43c7-b3a5-d70ce3e61cdd@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, urbancamo wrote: >If you are using linux, set TERM=vt220 before issuing the telnet >command. Thanks, this worked; I tried using vt100 and vt300 from my VMS system, but those terminal sessions didn't work. A VT200 terminal session from VMS worked fine. Picky, picky! Now off to hame some fun... ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 2008 13:03:04 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: NEWS was: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jpjc7F46uphU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:29:27 -0700, Neil Rieck > wrote: > >> I've been trying to post this for 4 days but recently discovered that >> Google Groups will not allow me to post text containing the word >> comprised of the phonem "fun" + "da" + "ment" + "al" so I've replaced >> that word with the mnemonic FDM > > Use News.Individual.NET costs ¤10 per year and use Opera as your > newsreader. I'll second the first part of this. I have been using them since the days when they were free and just a part of U Berlin. When they went commercial it was well worth the price to stay with them. As for the second part, I use Knews on a Unix box. Knews may be available for other OSes but I have never looked. But as a newsreader it is pretty good. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:30:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Lusardi Subject: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Message-ID: <0e289782-c774-4ae1-a1de-1a5384dfbd52@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com> "backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen. How can I redirect it to a specific file instead. Thank you, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Message-ID: <89ebb244-d467-47f6-bd72-05ca7043accd@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Sep 22, 3:30 pm, Christopher Lusardi wrote: > "backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen. > How can I redirect it to a specific file instead. > > Thank you, > Chris Chris, First, there should be a HELP command listing the paramters for that version of BACKUP. Type HELP BACKUP and it should display the list of command qualifiers. That said, the command to write the listing file to X.LIS would generally be: BACKUP/LIST=X.LIS savesetname/SAVE_SET - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:41:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Robinson Subject: Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Message-ID: <450eb78b-0db2-47c1-bdfc-9c410c30d7dc@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 22, 4:30=A0pm, Christopher Lusardi wrote: > "backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen. > How can I redirect it to a specific file instead. > > Thank you, > Chris If $ backup/list=3Dfilename.lis file.bck/saveset doesn't work, then try $ define/u sys$output filename.lis $ backup/lis file.bck/saveset Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:30:31 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: On V5.5, using the backup command how do I create a listing file Message-ID: Christopher Lusardi wrote: > "backup /list file.bck/saveset" displays the inforation to the screen. > How can I redirect it to a specific file instead. > > Thank you, > Chris I think you would find a study of the manuals most helpful. HELP is likewise there to help you. Try: $ HELP BACKUP /LIST ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:33:38 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available Message-ID: <00A7FC95.82FBBD31@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> "John Smith" writes: >>> Who is the radar manufacturer you can see on the north side of I-95 as you >>> drive by? I can't recall whether it is Raytheon or GE -- it's been a while >>> since I passed through the area. Long history of EW stuff in that area - >>> especially when Griffiss AFB @ Rome, NY was the EW headquarters. >> >> Ummm..... I-95 doesn't go anywhere near Rome, NY. That's I-81. >> >> bill >> >> > >Perhaps he is talking about the "ship in the cornfield" just off I-295 >in New Jersey. There is a structure that looks more or less like the >top of a ship with antennas all over it. Once upon a time I knew who >ran it but my memory grows DIMM. Perhaps it will come back to me. Isn't that Martin Marrietta? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:21:34 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Architect/Consultant Position Available Message-ID: <64e69$48d52311$4c0aaa0d$31373@TEKSAVVY.COM> My bad --- should be I-90 as it passes through Syracuse, NY, near the intersection of the Electronics Parkway exit http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=43.109364,-76.187868&spn=0.007707,0.019312&t=h&z=16 "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:6jcsukF2nr7oU1@mid.individual.net... > In article , > "John Smith" writes: >> >> Who is the radar manufacturer you can see on the north side of I-95 as >> you >> drive by? I can't recall whether it is Raytheon or GE -- it's been a >> while >> since I passed through the area. Long history of EW stuff in that area - >> especially when Griffiss AFB @ Rome, NY was the EW headquarters. > > Ummm..... I-95 doesn't go anywhere near Rome, NY. That's I-81. > > bill > > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "vmsmangler@earthlink.net" Subject: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken Message-ID: Last Sunday evening I ordered the OpenVMS Alpha media from the Hobbyist website. It said my order was received and would arrive in several days. Nothing has happened since then. No transaction on my credit card has been posted. I emailed the website but have had no response. Anybody else having problems with the hobbyist site? Bill (aka VMS Mangler) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:57:27 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: Ordered media from hobbyist site but no action taken Message-ID: <44052a7c-0fbe-4e08-bb4e-aad987539c2b@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On 21 sep, 19:10, "vmsmang...@earthlink.net" wrote: > Last Sunday evening I ordered the OpenVMS Alpha media from the > Hobbyist website. It said my order was received and would arrive in > several days. Nothing has happened since then. No transaction on my > credit card has been posted. I emailed the website but have had > no response. > > Anybody else having problems with the hobbyist site? > > Bill (aka VMS Mangler) It took about two weeks for the CD to end up on my doormat. Then again I'm in the Netherlands. Dunno where you are but be patient.... Hans ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:31:01 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Question about accelerators: > > So, you have one big 27km loop. > > Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, > and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to > accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? > > Or are they able to put particles into collision-free paths around the > loop so that they can each travel/accelerate for long periods, circling > the loops many times and only once they've gotten to the right speed, do > they press some button that changes the course ever so slightly so that > particles in opposite directions will the collide just under all the > monitoring equipment ? It is the latter: The two beams in LHC travel in their own vacuum tube each (inside the magnets). Injection and accellaration takes some time until stable beams are stored. Only then collisions start: at the interaction points inside the detectors the two tubes cross and a few protons collide (this crossing is steered by a kind of "kicker" magnets). The beams are not single particles but bunches, so they are not destroyed immediately, but this goes on for many hours until a new filling is needed. -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:31:02 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <48d22043$0$9617$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Joseph Huber wrote: > Also have a look into Cern's ask-the-expert pages at: > > http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAnExpert/en/Accelerators/Howaccel-en.html#7 But they don't answer the most important question: where do the protons go afterwards ? Is there a tap at the end of the loop where they open it at regular interval and fill a bit bucket with protons ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:17:08 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Joseph Huber wrote: > >> Also have a look into Cern's ask-the-expert pages at: >> >> http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAnExpert/en/Accelerators/Howaccel-en.html#7 > > > But they don't answer the most important question: where do the protons > go afterwards ? Is there a tap at the end of the loop where they open it > at regular interval and fill a bit bucket with protons ? Those which collide, are no longer protons, the particles go into the detector mass, and in fact irradiate it. When the beam has lost too much of it's particles to produce usefull events, or because of some technical failure (magnet/power loss or whatever could happen), then the beam is "dumped" into a big mass of graphite and (or?) iron. -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:41:01 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <1b37f487-8b1b-44eb-b8c4-d6116f0ee9b9@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > All you said here was that you used the pdp a couple of years before > the first 11/780. Then you said the cheapest DEC system, but not when. > When you said the cheapest system it sounded to me like it could be > any system, not just the 11/780, even if it was at the time of the > first 11/780. DEC didn't have anything cheaper than a VAX 11/780? Even > a non-VAX (or does the LA36 only work on a VAX)? When I said the cheapest system, I meant the cheapest 11/780 you could configure. And at that time all VAXen were 11/780. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:43:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Question about accelerators: > > So, you have one big 27km loop. > > Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, > and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to > accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to build the detectors for the results of collisions. Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make solid hits provide results never before seen. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 13:34:22 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >> Question about accelerators: >> >> So, you have one big 27km loop. >> >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? > > For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only > at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to > build the detectors for the results of collisions. > > Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance > off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make > solid hits provide results never before seen. Of what real value and at what cost? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <2719b5b5-1c12-45f7-998c-3b83b42ba631@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 2:34=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wri= tes: > > > > > In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > >> Question about accelerators: > > >> So, you have one big 27km loop. > > >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, > >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to > >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? > > > =A0 =A0For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. = =A0Only > > =A0 =A0at selected points to the loops cross. =A0That way they know whe= re to > > =A0 =A0build the detectors for the results of collisions. > > > =A0 =A0Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of g= lance > > =A0 =A0off each other creating uninteresting results. =A0But the few th= at make > > =A0 =A0solid hits provide results never before seen. > > Of what real value and at what cost? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. = =A0Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton =A0 | > Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include = =A0 the UK spends less per year on the LHC than we do on peanuts. How much you pay I know not. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 13:58:29 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jf545F32a7lU1@mid.individual.net> In article <2719b5b5-1c12-45f7-998c-3b83b42ba631@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: > On Sep 18, 2:34 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >>         koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >> >> >> > In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >> >> Question about accelerators: >> >> >> So, you have one big 27km loop. >> >> >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >> >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >> >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? >> >> >    For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path.  Only >> >    at selected points to the loops cross.  That way they know where to >> >    build the detectors for the results of collisions. >> >> >    Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance >> >    off each other creating uninteresting results.  But the few that make >> >    solid hits provide results never before seen. >> >> Of what real value and at what cost? >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton   | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include   > the UK spends less per year on the LHC than we do on peanuts. How much > you pay I know not. OK, so now we know the UK wastes money on the LHC and peanuts. Doesn't answer the question, does it? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:12:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Question about accelerators: So, you have one big 27km loop. Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? Or are they able to put particles into collision-free paths around the loop so that they can each travel/accelerate for long periods, circling the loops many times and only once they've gotten to the right speed, do they press some button that changes the course ever so slightly so that particles in opposite directions will the collide just under all the monitoring equipment ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:19:05 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>> Question about accelerators: >>> >>> So, you have one big 27km loop. >>> >>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? >> >> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only >> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to >> build the detectors for the results of collisions. >> >> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance >> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make >> solid hits provide results never before seen. > >Of what real value and at what cost? > Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ? Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to choose grass for dinner again. >bill > > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:12:15 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: Joseph Huber wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Question about accelerators: >> >> So, you have one big 27km loop. >> >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? >> >> Or are they able to put particles into collision-free paths around the >> loop so that they can each travel/accelerate for long periods, circling >> the loops many times and only once they've gotten to the right speed, do >> they press some button that changes the course ever so slightly so that >> particles in opposite directions will the collide just under all the >> monitoring equipment ? > > It is the latter: > The two beams in LHC travel in their own vacuum tube each (inside the > magnets). > Injection and accellaration takes some time until stable beams are > stored. Only then collisions start: at the interaction points inside the > detectors the two tubes cross and a few protons collide (this crossing > is steered by a kind of "kicker" magnets). The beams are not single > particles but bunches, so they are not destroyed immediately, but this > goes on for many hours until a new filling is needed. > Also have a look into Cern's ask-the-expert pages at: http://askanexpert.web.cern.ch/AskAnExpert/en/Accelerators/Howaccel-en.html#7 -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 16:40:51 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jfekjF32hajU1@mid.individual.net> In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>> Question about accelerators: >>>> >>>> So, you have one big 27km loop. >>>> >>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? >>> >>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only >>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to >>> build the detectors for the results of collisions. >>> >>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance >>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make >>> solid hits provide results never before seen. >> >>Of what real value and at what cost? >> > Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ? > Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower. The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question! > Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to > choose grass for dinner again. Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He probably wouldn't like it, but he could live. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:34:59 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance > > off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make > > solid hits provide results never before seen. > > Of what real value and at what cost? Some stories have Disraeli, some Gladstone asking Faraday what use his new trick was. His reply: I don't know, but in a hundred years you may tax it. Of course, Faraday's work led directly to essentially everything covered by "electrical engineering", certainly worth it. Tycho Brahe---in the words of Herbert S. Zim, a somewhat disoriented cross between W.C. Fields and Carl Sagan---was a Danish nobleman who even in the 16th century never married his girlfriend and mother of his children, lost part of his nose in a duel over who was the best mathematician and had dwarves as servants serving dinner from within a whole in the middle of a round table. He died of a burst bladder when he decided it wouldn't be good to leave the table before his employer. His naked-eye astronomical work led, via Kepler (who was his assistant) to Newton's Principia. So, yes, basic research does pay off. I'm currently undergoing treatment for cancer. X-ray machines, PET examinations etc all originated in basic research. Carl Sagan said that the unmanned exploration of the planets by various probes amounted to a penny a world per person. I think even the folks who have to get by on a dollar per day could afford that. Compared to other government spending, the amount paid for basic research is almost negligible. Most of that is probably salaries (not very high, compared to what one earns "in industry") for people working in research, and most of those people don't stay in research but go into "industry". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:07:46 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > So, yes, basic research does pay off. Of course, it also has a certain more intangible value. One could ask of what use is the music of Bach? He (and his family---he had 20 children, though most died young) was essentially supported by public money. The world would be less well-off had someone decided "no, we don't need that". Man does not live by bread alone. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:08:29 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <48d2a7dd$0$1563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Bob Koehler wrote: > For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only > at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to > build the detectors for the results of collisions. Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that happen to intersect at a point ? Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside the same vacuum tube ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:35:47 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: JF Mezei schrieb: > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only >> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to >> build the detectors for the results of collisions. > > Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets > etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that > happen to intersect at a point ? > > Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside > the same vacuum tube ? No, there are two vacuum tubes (or is the right word vacuum pipes ?) inside the one magnet. The magnets are the sophisticated part keeping the beams in the opposite directions on track. If You read through the Cern web pages, I remember some picture where You can see a magnet with two vacuum pipes in the center. Since in the LHC the beams are of the same kind of particles, this is possible. In past years I was involved in a detector at the Hamburg HERA collider: there protons collided with positrons (anti electrons). Because of the different behaviour, the two beams were running each in their own magnets (superconducting for the protons, conventional warm for positrons/electrons), effectively 2 accelerators in one tunnel. -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:17:05 +0200 From: Joseph Huber Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: Joseph Huber schrieb: > JF Mezei schrieb: >> Bob Koehler wrote: >> >>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only >>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to >>> build the detectors for the results of collisions. >> >> Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets >> etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that >> happen to intersect at a point ? >> >> Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside >> the same vacuum tube ? > > No, there are two vacuum tubes (or is the right word vacuum pipes ?) > inside the one magnet. The magnets are the sophisticated part keeping > the beams in the opposite directions on track. I have to correct myself: LHC has two beam-pipes, each with its own magnet coil, both are inside one big cryostat, housing the cryogenics, and the iron yoke to compensate the magnetic fields. So the two beams have their own magnetic field, but one can't speak of two independent accelerators. -- Joseph Huber - http://www.huber-joseph.de ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 15:39:56 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Of what real value and at what cost? Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:41:42 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> Of what real value and at what cost? > > Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict > ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. > > You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything > we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. > Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times. A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind. Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building computers with vacuum tubes? Would you like to consider what your life span might have been if you had been born a hundred and fifty years ago? No penicilin! No sulfa drugs. No X-Ray, no MRI, no CAT Scan. Your doctor could very well have known less about the art and science of medicine than you do. Sometimes research just suggests a better place to look or a better thing to look for. It's still worth doing! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:49:37 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > > > Of what real value and at what cost? > > Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict > ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. > > You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything > we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. In a speech entitled I, Thou and the Computer (back in 1973 or something like that), Isaac Asimov commented on an anti-science article by a certain Mr. Laurie in the magazine NEW SCIENTIST, in which Laurie stated "Sure, science has turned a few tricks like tinned food, but what has science done to add to the happiness of man's three score years and ten?" Asimov replied in a letter: man's three score years and ten. Before science, the average lifespan was more like one score year and ten. If you don't want it, Mr. Laurie, don't take it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:59:46 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <47e154bb-b37b-43b3-813b-a0f28150f38c@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 10:34 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > > > In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > >> Question about accelerators: > > >> So, you have one big 27km loop. > > >> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, > >> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to > >> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? > > > For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only > > at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to > > build the detectors for the results of collisions. > > > Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glanc= e > > off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that mak= e > > solid hits provide results never before seen. > > Of what real value and at what cost? A fair question, but keep in mind that -=96 as far as I know -- little, if any, of your money is involved. (Has the US contributed to this? Probably some, but I doubt it=92s a lot.) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider for an introduction. See http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-09/defense-lhc for an article explaining why it=92s worth the cost. I offer what little I can below. I take a stab at the value of this below. The cost? I think it=92s several billion dollars and give a short description of what=92s involved before my efforts at describing the value. The cost: Unfortunately, research is expensive, and going to higher and higher energies in high-energy physics (part of subatomic physics -- nuclear physics being the other part) requires a corresponding increase in the size and complexity of everything involved. At this level one needs the following: huge (really huge), very complex detectors; many big, powerful magnets with focusing capability; large buildings and the equipment therein to deal with high-energy particles traversing a very long path; massive computer power (for data acquisition and offline analysis; many, many physicists (esp. grad students!); a lot of electricity to run the magnets with, of course, a lot of equipment to cool the magnets; doing the design and engineering (no easy feat!); construction; and probably other things I can=92t think of offhand. As I said above, this comes to several billion dollars ($6 billion according to the pop-sci reference above). But is it worth it? For many it is, even if there are no practical benefits. But I=92m sure there will be some. But then again, is it worth the cost? The value: Well, for one thing, it help keeps the unemployment rate down! Keeps physicists off the streets. Acquires knowledge for its own sake. One of the basic things about people is their desire to be important. We all strive for this in different ways. Some try to be important by acquiring wealth. Others try by winning in sports. Still others go for power, etc. Scientists play this game too. And there are the Nobel prizes and such. And there's posting cov! There's also acting to become a movie star. Etc. You can add quite a lot to this list. Bragging rights for Europe. (See importance paragraph above. Countries also play the I- want-to-be-important game.) Prestige. (see above) Creates a force on companies to come up with better and better equipment, including electronics and computers. Experimental physics pushes technology to the limits, and that is no understatement. Testing the Standard Model. Might find the Higgs particle. Might find something else! May produce some fascinating unknown phenomena to confound theoretical physicists. Might bring the end of the world (well, not really), but if so, it would end the financial crisis for *far* less than the Fed is putting up at taxpayers expense! Talk about a bargain. Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that=92s the only commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and cosmologists and the like. The idea that one can build a laser was first brought to light by Einstein doing basic research. Basic research is important because you never know where the next great breakthrough (practical or otherwise) will come from. Penicillin, e.g. Ok, this is a lot more expensive, but see above. Thermodynamics grew from practical considerations into full-blown basic research, giving back much practical knowledge. Quantum mechanics started as pure basic research, but our modern world would be impossible without it. For one thing, computers would still be using radio tubes and there probably would be no Unix and no VMS. (Well, not having Microsoft would be an advantage! You have to take the bad with the good.) There=92d be no lasers and no transistors. Now, if the question you=92re asking is: Is it worth the cost? Well, the people of Europe seem to think so. Better yet, check out the links above. AEF > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolve= s > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:03:23 -0600 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <1221782202_2361@isp.n> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> In article , >>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>>> Question about accelerators: >>>>> >>>>> So, you have one big 27km loop. >>>>> >>>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >>>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >>>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? >>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only >>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to >>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions. >>>> >>>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance >>>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make >>>> solid hits provide results never before seen. >>> Of what real value and at what cost? >>> >> Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ? >> Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower. > > The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you > pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question! > >> Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to >> choose grass for dinner again. > > Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or > at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He > probably wouldn't like it, but he could live. > > bill > Wolf - "Grass is what food eats!" ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:13:10 -0600 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <1221782790_2365@isp.n> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> Of what real value and at what cost? >> >> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict >> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. >> >> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything >> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. >> > > Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth until > it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The little > bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times. > > A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular > degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind. > > Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building computers > with vacuum tubes? Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD? Extra credit: how much filament power is required? 8-) 8-) > > Would you like to consider what your life span might have been if you > had been born a hundred and fifty years ago? No penicilin! No sulfa > drugs. No X-Ray, no MRI, no CAT Scan. Your doctor could very well have > known less about the art and science of medicine than you do. > > Sometimes research just suggests a better place to look or a better > thing to look for. It's still worth doing! > ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 15:42:49 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <48d2a7dd$0$1563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > Are the paths in 2 separate vacuum "tubes" each with their own magnets > etc ? (which means it is really 2 totally separate accelerators that > happen to intersect at a point ? > > Or do they have sophisticated magnets that can generate 2 paths inside > the same vacuum tube ? In most, and I think the LHC is included, there are two tubes. But you need the sophisticated magnets anyhow because the tubes tend to both be at the core of the magnets. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:27:34 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: Jeff Campbell wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> Bob Koehler wrote: >>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu >>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> Of what real value and at what cost? >>> >>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict >>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. >>> >>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything >>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. >>> >> >> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth >> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The >> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times. >> >> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular >> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind. >> >> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building >> computers with vacuum tubes? > > Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD? > The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors. > Extra credit: how much filament power is required? Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now! I no longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the power requirements. > ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 00:37:22 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jgai2F36jsuU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Jeff Campbell wrote: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> Bob Koehler wrote: >>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu >>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>>> Of what real value and at what cost? >>>> >>>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict >>>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. >>>> >>>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything >>>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. >>>> >>> >>> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth >>> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The >>> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times. >>> >>> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular >>> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind. >>> >>> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building >>> computers with vacuum tubes? >> >> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD? >> > The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors. >> Extra credit: how much filament power is required? > Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now! Stop by my house for a beer sometime. I'll show some to you. :-) > I no > longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the > power requirements. Yeah, still got them, too. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 00:40:09 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jgan9F36jsuU2@mid.individual.net> In article <1221782202_2361@isp.n>, Jeff Campbell writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> In article , >>>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>>>> Question about accelerators: >>>>>> >>>>>> So, you have one big 27km loop. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >>>>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >>>>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? >>>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only >>>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to >>>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions. >>>>> >>>>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance >>>>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make >>>>> solid hits provide results never before seen. >>>> Of what real value and at what cost? >>>> >>> Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ? >>> Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower. >> >> The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you >> pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question! >> >>> Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to >>> choose grass for dinner again. >> >> Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or >> at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He >> probably wouldn't like it, but he could live. >> >> bill >> > > Wolf - "Grass is what food eats!" That's what I keep telling the local vegaterians when thye say I should be eating salads. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:46:46 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> Jeff Campbell wrote: >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>> Bob Koehler wrote: >>>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu >>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>>>> Of what real value and at what cost? >>>>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict >>>>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. >>>>> >>>>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything >>>>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. >>>>> >>>> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth >>>> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The >>>> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times. >>>> >>>> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular >>>> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind. >>>> >>>> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building >>>> computers with vacuum tubes? >>> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD? >>> >> The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors. >>> Extra credit: how much filament power is required? >> Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now! > > Stop by my house for a beer sometime. I'll show some to you. :-) > >> I no >> longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the >> power requirements. > > Yeah, still got them, too. > > bill > What are you doing with them? Just collecting antiques? The last time I saw a vacuum tube was several years ago when my wife trash picked a "Cathedral Radio". She sold it for big bucks to a collector. Actually, if you count a CRT as a vacuum tube I'm looking at one now. If it dies before I do, it will be replaced with a flat panel monitor. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:05:41 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <47e154bb-b37b-43b3-813b-a0f28150f38c@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > Bragging rights for Europe. (See importance paragraph above. Countries > also play the I- want-to-be-important game.) Of course, CERN itself has been around for 50 years or so. Some media reports give the impression that CERN itself was founded only recently in order to build the LHC. Although personally I think the effect is exaggerated, one of the motivations---just shortly after WWII---was to have an international institute (in a neutral country) to promote international understanding. Also keep in mind that many countries in Europe are quite small. These small countries couldn't participate in such experiments at all unless they spent a really high percentage of their money (compared to their contribution to CERN) to build a national institute. (I think Germany is the only European country with its own large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).) > Creates a force on companies to come up with better and better > equipment, including electronics and computers. Experimental physics > pushes technology to the limits, and that is no understatement. This is true to a quite large degree. One could ask: Why doesn't industry itself, consumer demand etc push the envelope? Probably because it is not clear beforehand what will "pay off", whereas research is more desperate. Today, CCDs are ubiquitous (practically all digital cameras, camcorders etc have them). A huge part of the development was done by astronomers. (Interestingly, Tony Tyson, now at UCD, was employed for decades by Lucent, essentially as a full-time astronomer.) > Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and > general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that's the only > commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and > cosmologists and the like. For GR, yes. For SR, anytime relativistic velocities are involved, you need it. I think there are commercial or at least medical instruments which involve particles moving at relativistic velocities. > Thermodynamics grew from practical considerations into full-blown > basic research, giving back much practical knowledge. Someone once said that science owes more to the steam engine than the steam engine owes to science! We tend to think of pure research first, applications second, but thermodynamics is a counter-example; much of the research was motivated by the desire to improve steam engines, and only later became important in experimental physics. The same is true of astronomy, which was hugely important for navigation at one time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:21 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > What are you doing with them? Just collecting antiques? The last time > I saw a vacuum tube was several years ago when my wife trash picked a > "Cathedral Radio". She sold it for big bucks to a collector. Of course, they are still used in guitar amplifiers. The reason is that guitarist often like a distorted sound, and the overtones produced by a vacuum tube in its nonlinear regime are better than those of a transistor. One can also buy tube-based hifi amplifiers, but I think most of that is voodoo. They are probably quite good, because the OTHER components are quite good, since the tube fanatics are willing to pay good money, so the proper comparison would be a high-end transistor amplifier. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:53:47 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply schrieb: > (I think Germany is the only European country with its own > large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).) This is not quite true (anymore). The high energy physics at DESY has been shutdown. There are, however, other large accelerators, e.g. at GSI, or in France at Ganil. Although not quite the size of LHC, their research is much more diversified, and sometimes even includes practical aspects such as innovative radiotherapy. > > For GR, yes. For SR, anytime relativistic velocities are involved, you > need it. I think there are commercial or at least medical instruments > which involve particles moving at relativistic velocities. Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example. 20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:56:57 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: AEF schrieb: > > Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and > general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that’s the only > commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and > cosmologists and the like. > > The idea that one can build a laser was first brought to light by > Einstein doing basic research. What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ? It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and (probably numerous) sheets of paper. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:39:09 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <6jfekjF32hajU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>In article , >>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>> In article <48d1b9c4$0$12375$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>>>> Question about accelerators: >>>>> >>>>> So, you have one big 27km loop. >>>>> >>>>> Do they inject particles and accelerate the even particles clockwise, >>>>> and the odd particles counterclockwise, and each side has 13km to >>>>> accelerate until they hit at the other end of the loop ? >>>> >>>> For most of the distance, the loops are not in the same path. Only >>>> at selected points to the loops cross. That way they know where to >>>> build the detectors for the results of collisions. >>>> >>>> Most of the particales don't collide and most which do kind of glance >>>> off each other creating uninteresting results. But the few that make >>>> solid hits provide results never before seen. >>> >>>Of what real value and at what cost? >>> >> Of what real value was the discovery of the electron ? >> Though I'll admit the cost of those experiments was rather lower. > >The discovery seems to have produced quite a bit of value and, as you >pointed out, at rather little cost. Back to my original question! > But the value wasn't particularly apparent at the time. Though a bit tongue in cheek Thompson's Colleagues at the Cavendish Lab used to offer the toast "The electron: may it never be of use to anybody." See for instance http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B05E2D61531F93AA15757C0A961958260 The electron though was definitely the low hanging fruit since it was so loosely bound in atoms. Knowledge of the construction of the atomic nucleus (protons and neutrons) has also proved valuable (as also knowledge about anti-matter eg positrons). Whether the results from the LHC will contribute to similar future technologies only time will tell. Though I'd suggest that knowing where MASS comes from and whether other dimensions exist to mention two possible results might prove valuable. >> Democracy - A wolf dying of starvation as a hundred sheep outvote him to >> choose grass for dinner again. > >Bad analogy. The wolf would not starve to death on a diet of grass (or >at least that is what vegitarians want us carnivores to believe!). He >probably wouldn't like it, but he could live. > On the contrary I would think it highly unlikely that the wolf would survive on a diet consisting largely of cellulose which not being a ruminant it would not be able to digest. Note. Human vegetarians eat fruit, grass seeds and leaves but don't subsist on a diet of grass. Cellulose passes through the human digestive system intact. see http://science.jrank.org/pages/1335/Cellulose-Cellulose-digestion.html David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 05:44:56 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <90deeade-e778-40dd-9b93-ff2094ddb5b7@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Sep 19, 4:05=A0am, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article > <47e154bb-b37b-43b3-813b-a0f28150f...@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, AEF > > writes: > > Bragging rights for Europe. (See importance paragraph above. Countries > > also play the I- want-to-be-important game.) > > Of course, CERN itself has been around for 50 years or so. =A0Some media > reports give the impression that CERN itself was founded only recently > in order to build the LHC. =A0Although personally I think the effect is > exaggerated, one of the motivations---just shortly after WWII---was to > have an international institute (in a neutral country) to promote > international understanding. =A0Also keep in mind that many countries in > Europe are quite small. =A0These small countries couldn't participate in > such experiments at all unless they spent a really high percentage of > their money (compared to their contribution to CERN) to build a national > institute. =A0(I think Germany is the only European country with its own > large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).) Yes, CERN has been around for quite a while. This project is more or less an upgrade. There's at least one other situation like this I can think of, but I won't mention it here for fear of starting yet another endless discussion of it! :-) > > Creates a force on companies to come up with better and better > > equipment, including electronics and computers. Experimental physics > > pushes technology to the limits, and that is no understatement. > > This is true to a quite large degree. =A0One could ask: Why doesn't > industry itself, consumer demand etc push the envelope? =A0Probably > because it is not clear beforehand what will "pay off", whereas research > is more desperate. =A0Today, CCDs are ubiquitous (practically all digital > cameras, camcorders etc have them). =A0A huge part of the development was > done by astronomers. =A0(Interestingly, Tony Tyson, now at UCD, was > employed for decades by Lucent, essentially as a full-time astronomer.) I would venture to guess that industry on its own would mainly try to improve what technology already exists and also invent new uses thereof. Physicists need to come up with new things to progress or, as in the case of the laser, are realized as consequences of new theories -- again basic research. For example, would anyone ever have come up with MRI (formerly known as NMR: nuclear magnetic resonance) if nuclear physicists hadn't done it first? And I wouldn't be surprised if NaI crystals (needed to measure the energies gamma rays) would be around today without physicists needing it first. Well, I'm not sure of their history, but they are needed in thallium stress tests and others. Also, radioactive isotope tracers are often (if not always) made with leftover accelerators and reactors. The mass spectrometer also comes to mind. Radiation therapy also comes to mind. > > Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and > > general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that's the only > > commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and > > cosmologists and the like. > > For GR, yes. =A0For SR, anytime relativistic velocities are involved, you > need it. =A0I think there are commercial or at least medical instruments > which involve particles moving at relativistic velocities. I read somewhere that both are involved. Both effects are normally extremely small, but in this case are needed to get the timing right. > > Thermodynamics grew from practical considerations into full-blown > > basic research, giving back much practical knowledge. > > Someone once said that science owes more to the steam engine than the > steam engine owes to science! Actually, I think things went both ways in this case. Maybe not in equal amounts, though. The steam engine *was* very important for this. > We tend to think of pure research first, applications second, but > thermodynamics is a counter-example; much of the research was motivated > by the desire to improve steam engines, and only later became important > in experimental physics. =A0The same is true of astronomy, which was > hugely important for navigation at one time. Astronomy predates navigation. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 12:46:10 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jhl8iF38mskU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> Jeff Campbell wrote: >>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>>> Bob Koehler wrote: >>>>>> In article <6jf3muF31qiqU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu >>>>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>>>>> Of what real value and at what cost? >>>>>> Of the same real value of all basic research: you can't predict >>>>>> ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. >>>>>> >>>>>> You could have asked the same of any research that led to anything >>>>>> we have now. Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. >>>>>> >>>>> Face it. You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth >>>>> until it has been completed. A lot of it has no practical use. The >>>>> little bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times. >>>>> >>>>> A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular >>>>> degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind. >>>>> >>>>> Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? Building >>>>> computers with vacuum tubes? >>>> Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD? >>>> >>> The figure would be approximately equal to the number of transistors. >>>> Extra credit: how much filament power is required? >>> Several megawatts. I haven't seen a 6AU6 in about 50 years now! >> >> Stop by my house for a beer sometime. I'll show some to you. :-) >> >>> I no >>> longer have the Vacuum Tube Data book and can no longer look up the >>> power requirements. >> >> Yeah, still got them, too. >> >> bill >> > > What are you doing with them? Just collecting antiques? I have a number of antique radios i still enjoy. I have quite a bit of tube amateur radio equipment including my first HF rig, an HW-101. It is really quite funny. Most of my tube radios still work. When I decided to get back into ham radio I dug out a lot of equipment I hadn't used in over a decade. Most of the solid-state stuff just flat out didn't work. Those pieces that did seemed to work for only a short time before failing. My Drake Twins are working just fine, except for 160M where I think the crystal has gone bad. None of my HT's work. Only one of my solid-state HF rigs works and it seems to pick up more interfernece than signals. And I suspect most of this interference is internal. I can understand now why true audiophiles still prefer vacuum tubes. > The last time > I saw a vacuum tube was several years ago when my wife trash picked a > "Cathedral Radio". She sold it for big bucks to a collector. I have watched the prices for antique radios rise a lot over time, I used to get mine at the Salvation Army Store for $10-$15. Now they go for hundreds in high class antique shoppes. > > Actually, if you count a CRT as a vacuum tube I'm looking at one now. > If it dies before I do, it will be replaced with a flat panel monitor. That is the one place I do not have vacuum tubes. All of my computers have flat panel screens. The only CRT's I still have are in our TV sets, which with the change to DTV are not long for this world, and my various osciloscopes. Oh wait, all those VT-220's have CRT's!! Hey, are we back opn topic now? :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 12:51:55 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net> In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > > Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example. > 20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create > the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours. "Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one? Kind of like automotive power measured in BPS. (Do they still do it that way? I haven't read a good german car rag in decades!) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:11:49 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > > (I think Germany is the only European country with its own > > large particle-accelerator institute (DESY).) > > This is not quite true (anymore). > The high energy physics at DESY has been shutdown. Really? Why? Whatever for? When? Whose decision? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:15:06 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <90deeade-e778-40dd-9b93-ff2094ddb5b7@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > Astronomy predates navigation. Yes, of course, but the huge investment in observatories starting around the 17th century was a direct result of its use in navigation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:16:16 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > Michael Kraemer writes: > > > > Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example. > > 20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create > > the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours. > > "Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one? Isn't Bremsstrahlung (or bremsstrahlung) the normal English word? ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 13:24:34 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jhngiF3cg6qU1@mid.individual.net> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> In article , >> Michael Kraemer writes: >> > >> > Linacs for conventional radiotherapy, for example. >> > 20 MeV electrons are pretty relativistic and create >> > the Bremsstrahlung necessary to reach deeper seated tumours. >> >> "Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one? > > Isn't Bremsstrahlung (or bremsstrahlung) the normal English word? Wow, you're right. Apparently it has been subsumed into english. It is even an acceptable word for Scrabble!! :-) Probably necessary as I doubt any reasonable translation would have been able to carry the necessary meaning. I guess the only real problem with speaking more than one language is that when one runs into what appears to be a mixture one just understands and continues without trying to figure out what the translation would have been. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:30:17 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > Really? Why? Whatever for? When? Whose decision? Happened already a couple of years ago. But it affects only "useless" high energy physics of CERN type, not DESY altogether. I think they (will) have a new electron accelerator for X-ray laser studies, structural research and such. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 14:00:27 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6jhpjrF3b1deU1@mid.individual.net> In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > In article <6jhljbF38mskU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes: >> >> "Bremsstrahlung"? I ownder how many of our readers got that one? > > Readers of textbooks on nuclear/atomic physics for example. > It's a traditional term, meaning "deceleration radiation". > It probably survived the 1920s/1930s when German was the > "lingua franca" of quantum physics. > >> Kind of like automotive power measured in BPS. (Do they still do >> it that way? I haven't read a good german car rag in decades!) > > Do you mean "PS" ? It's still used here and there, but officially > it is kW (kiloWatt). Unfortunately a car performing at 100 PS has > only 75kW (or sth like that), > and this seems to be a problem for the low self-esteem of car-lovers. Is PS the same as BPS? PS == Pferdestärke == horsepower BPS == Bremse Pferdestärke == brake horsepower At least that's what the rags used for a rating in the early 70's when I was ripping around The Saarland in my Fiat 850. :-) I always got a kick out of American car rags using both Horsepower and Torque. But their peaks never coincide on the RPM curve. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:07:44 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveG Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 18, 7:13=A0pm, Jeff Campbell wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> In article <6jf3muF31qi...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu > >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >>> Of what real value and at what cost? > > >> =A0 =A0Of the same real value of all basic research: =A0you can't pred= ict > >> =A0 =A0ahead of time which will result in practicle results when. > > >> =A0 =A0You could have asked the same of any research that led to anyth= ing > >> =A0 =A0we have now. =A0Or you could go back to 50% child mortality. > > > Face it. =A0You'll never know what a piece of research may be worth unt= il > > it has been completed. =A0A lot of it has no practical use. =A0The litt= le > > bits that are worthwhile have changed the world many times. > > > A LASER can blind you but, if you happen to have age related macular > > degeneration, it might just keep you from going blind. > > > Where would we be today without Solid State Physics? =A0Building comput= ers > > with vacuum tubes? > > Quiz: How many 6AU6s does it take to implement an iPOD? > > Extra credit: how much filament power is required? > > 8-) > > 8-) > > > > > Would you like to consider what your life span might have been if you > > had been born a hundred and fifty years ago? =A0No penicilin! No sulfa > > drugs. No X-Ray, no MRI, no CAT Scan. =A0Your doctor could very well ha= ve > > known less about the art and science of medicine than you do. > > > Sometimes research just suggests a better place to look or a better > > thing to look for. =A0It's still worth doing! > > ----=3D=3D Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet = News=3D=3D----http://www.pronews.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! = >100,000 Newsgroups > ---=3D - Total Privacy via Encryption =3D--- And I shutter to think how many 12AX7s it might take. And don't get me started on 5U4s. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:25:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <94e90d0a-3ac3-4ffe-a5c1-d619097201d1@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 8:34=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > Of what real value and at what cost? > Although the question of "value" has been answered to death, the question of "cost" hasn't so let's look at what "cost" really means. Cost is an exchange of capital. One person's debit is another person's credit. Billions of (units) of capital exchanged hands as a result of the LHC. Jobs and income were provided to people in all walks of life; not just physicists. The question of whether or not the money could have been put to better use or not is moot: it's a done deal. If enough people hadn't thought the project was worthy, it wouldn't have been done. We could ask whether any expenditure that doesn't address an immediate need -- e.g., world hunger, the environment, world peace -- is wise, but mankind has always faced that question and gone on to climb mountains and walk on the moon. That's the nature of man. The need to further our understanding of the universe in which we live is ingrained within us. Anyone who has read Douglas Adams' HGTTG should know we were created to find the great question for "42." ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 12:06:34 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > > What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ? > It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and > (probably numerous) sheets of paper. There was cost in performing the experiments that led to knowing we needed Einstein's theory. Not to mention him knowing what his theory had to explain. There was cost in performing Columbus' experiement, too. Failed in his goal to reach the far east by sailing west. Failed experiments can be vitally important. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 17:16:29 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <6ji53dF3ff14U1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Michael Kraemer writes: >> >> What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ? >> It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and >> (probably numerous) sheets of paper. > > There was cost in performing the experiments that led to knowing > we needed Einstein's theory. Not to mention him knowing what his > theory had to explain. > > There was cost in performing Columbus' experiement, too. Failed > in his goal to reach the far east by sailing west. Failed > experiments can be vitally important. Now there's a very good comparison. Columbus was a fraud or an idiot who successfully sold snake oil to the king and queen of Spain. And that is exactly how I see a lot of what passes for science today except I have eliminated the possibility that the perps are idiots. (And, in case your curious, I hold that Columbus was also no idiot. He was however an exceptional fraud who suckered Spain into financing a boondogle he knew could not deliver what he promised!!) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 19, 10:23=A0am, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article <6jhpjrF3b1d...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu > > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > > Readers of textbooks on nuclear/atomic physics for example. > > > It's a traditional term, meaning "deceleration radiation". > > > It probably survived the 1920s/1930s when German was the > > > "lingua franca" of quantum physics. > > Indeed. =A0Oppenheimer (despite his German name) studied in Germany. =A0J= ohn > Wheeler (who died recently) was fluent in German. > > > >> Kind of like automotive power measured in BPS. =A0(Do they still do > > >> it that way? =A0I haven't read a good german car rag in decades!) > > > > Do you mean "PS" ? It's still used here and there, but officially > > > it is kW (kiloWatt). Unfortunately a car performing at 100 PS has > > > only 75kW (or sth like that), > > > and this seems to be a problem for the low self-esteem of car-lovers. > > If the HP number were lower than the kW number, HP would be gone. =A0Note > that there are different horsepowers around. =A0In Europe, it is 0.75 kW > or 750W. =A0I think the British horse power is different. > > > Is PS the same as BPS? > > PS =3D=3D Pferdest=E4rke =3D=3D horsepower > > BPS =3D=3D Bremse Pferdest=E4rke =3D=3D brake horsepower > > Never heard of that! > > > I always got a kick out of American car rags using both Horsepower and > > Torque. =A0But their peaks never coincide on the RPM curve. =A0 > > They are two different things. =A0Normally, the torque peaks at a lower > RPM than the (horse)power. =A0In German, Drehmoment and Leistung. Power =3D torque X angular velocity Imagine applying a torque to something that doesn't turn. That's non- zero torque but zero horsepower. It's like pushing on a building: you apply a non-zero force, but the building doesn't move, so you've done zero work (though your muscles get tired trying to maintain a force!) AEF AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 04:18:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: <8fc77942-427a-4e38-bd5d-6e4166111386@l43g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 04:23:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 18, 6:17 am, Joseph Huber wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: [...snip...] > > Those which collide, are no longer protons, the particles go into the > detector mass, and in fact irradiate it. > When the beam has lost too much of it's particles to produce usefull > events, or because of some technical failure (magnet/power loss or > whatever could happen), then the beam is "dumped" into a big mass of > graphite and (or?) iron. > > Joseph Huber -http://www.huber-joseph.de > Adding to your point, hadrons are particles which feel the strong nuclear force. This means that hadrons contain quarks, which means that lots of quarks will be in the post-collision spray (along with lots of other stuff created by the conversion of energy into mass). Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:29:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 18, 6:17 am, Joseph Huber wrote: > > JF Mezei wrote: [...snip...] > > Those which collide, are no longer protons, the particles go into the > detector mass, and in fact irradiate it. > When the beam has lost too much =A0of it's particles to produce usefull > events, or because of some technical failure (magnet/power loss or > whatever could happen), then the beam is "dumped" into a big mass of > graphite and (or?) iron. > > =A0 Joseph Huber =A0 -http://www.huber-joseph.de I've been trying to post this for 4 days but recently discovered that Google Groups will not allow me to post text containing the word comprised of the phonem "fun" + "da" + "ment" + "al" so I've replaced that word with the mnemonic FDM Adding to your point, hadrons are particles which feel the strong force. This means that hadrons contain quarks, which means that lots of quarks will be in the post-collision spray (along with lots of other stuff created by the conversion of energy into mass). p.s. modern physicists no longer think of a proton as a FDM particle. A proton is now treated as a "particle system" consisting of 3 quarks (two ups and one down). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton Likewise, a neutron is now treated as a "particle system" consisting of 3 quarks (one up and two downs). Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:19:09 -0700 (PDT) From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: On Sep 19, 1:16 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > > In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > > >> What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ? > >> It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and > >> (probably numerous) sheets of paper. > > > There was cost in performing the experiments that led to knowing > > we needed Einstein's theory. Not to mention him knowing what his > > theory had to explain. There were also costs in verifying the theory. Accelerators and flying atomic clocks around the world and what not don't compare to the LHC in cost, but they aren't free, either. > > There was cost in performing Columbus' experiement, too. Failed > > in his goal to reach the far east by sailing west. Failed > > experiments can be vitally important. > > Now there's a very good comparison. Columbus was a fraud or an idiot > who successfully sold snake oil to the king and queen of Spain. And > that is exactly how I see a lot of what passes for science today except > I have eliminated the possibility that the perps are idiots. (And, Can you give some examples (besides global warming as your being convinced it is doesn't make it so, and that horse is long well dead)? Thanks. > in case your curious, I hold that Columbus was also no idiot. He was > however an exceptional fraud who suckered Spain into financing a > boondogle he knew could not deliver what he promised!!) Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Columbus and his crew run out of rations before they hit land? If so, how does that constitute fraud? > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 02:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: On Sep 18, 1:19=A0am, wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) wrote: > Yes, it's possible. =A0VMS has to run under the virtual machine supervisor that > runs on HP/UX, so your actual hardware is running HP/UX. =A0 > > -- Alan Thanks Alan, Is there hobbyist licensing available for HP/UX? Or other affordable options for acquiring it? What versions etc will I need? Sampsa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:19:21 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: <00A7FCCE.306025DD@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article , sampsal@gmail.com writes: >On Sep 18, 1:19=A0am, wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - >SSRL Central Computing) wrote: > > Yes, it's possible. =A0VMS has to run under the virtual machine >supervisor that >> runs on HP/UX, so your actual hardware is running HP/UX. =A0 >> >> -- Alan > >Thanks Alan, > >Is there hobbyist licensing available for HP/UX? Or other affordable >options for acquiring it? What versions etc will I need? I am altogether clueless on this, sorry. -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 2008 07:39:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: In article , sampsal@gmail.com writes: > Is this possible? http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-5801ENW.pdf > seems to indicate that they're planning on this being available: > > "OpenVMS Virtual Machines is running in the lab on Intel=AEMontecito > prototype systems as of December > 2005, with first production shipments planned for 2007" This is not exactly news. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:41:58 +0100 From: "Richard Brodie" Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: wrote in message news:b069c59c-d9ab-475c-8ce0-d782feff7923@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >Is there hobbyist licensing available for HP/UX? Or other affordable >options for acquiring it? What versions etc will I need? OpenVMS 8.4, don't know about the supervisor. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:44:30 -0700 (PDT) From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: On Sep 18, 1:39=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , samp...@gmail.com writes: > > > Is this possible?http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-5801ENW.p= df > > seems to indicate that they're planning on this being available: > > > "OpenVMS Virtual Machines is running in the lab on Intel=3DAEMontecito > > prototype systems as of December > > 2005, with first production shipments planned for 2007" > > =A0 =A0This is not exactly news. No I realise that but was unable to find anything more recent about this, hence the question to comp.os.vms. Sampsa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:36:52 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: <3905c618-f8b8-4d24-b754-91b367b1ba52@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Sep 18, 3:44=A0pm, samp...@gmail.com wrote: > On Sep 18, 1:39=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob > > Koehler) wrote: > > In article , samp...@gmail.com writes: > > > > Is this possible?http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-5801ENW= .pdf > > > seems to indicate that they're planning on this being available: > > > > "OpenVMS Virtual Machines is running in the lab on Intel=3DAEMontecit= o > > > prototype systems as of December > > > 2005, with first production shipments planned for 2007" > > > =A0 =A0This is not exactly news. > > No I realise that but was unable to find anything more recent about > this, hence the question to comp.os.vms. > > Sampsa The public information is in the VMS roadmap slide 8 & 9. http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/roadmap HPVM =96 Integrity Virtual Machine V4 and OpenVMS V8.4 is mentioned ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT) From: yyyc186 Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: On Sep 17, 7:19=A0pm, wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) wrote: > > Yes, it's possible. =A0VMS has to run under the virtual machine superviso= r that > runs on HP/UX, so your actual hardware is running HP/UX. =A0 > So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an industry wide joke. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:33:46 -0400 From: "John Reagan" Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: "yyyc186" wrote in message news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an industry wide joke. My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX. It isn't a full multi-user environment that you can log into. If you want to run HP-UX, you run it virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:24:17 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: <07f7e7af-adfb-42f5-9d12-fd58384d3296@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On Sep 19, 9:33=A0am, "John Reagan" wrote: > "yyyc186" wrote in message > > news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... > > So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an > industry wide joke. > > My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut > down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX. =A0It isn't a full multi-user > environment that you can log into. =A0If you want to run HP-UX, you run i= t > virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS. > > John John, This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to "strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:31:50 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:24:17 -0700, jferraro wrote: > On Sep 19, 9:33 am, "John Reagan" wrote: >> "yyyc186" wrote in message >> >> news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... >> >> So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an >> industry wide joke. >> >> My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut >> down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX.  It isn't a full multi-user >> environment that you can log into.  If you want to run HP-UX, you run it >> virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS. >> >> John > > John, > > This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do > wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to > "strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL > of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top. > > Joe What launches the Virtual Machine? Unix typically boots to single user and then multi-user, although the boot scripts often automate (^D) to multi-user. So the question is if is possible to launch the VM from single user? -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:02:37 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: <8e59cf75-4d05-4475-8f59-1d0a658897d1@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com> On Sep 19, 11:31=A0am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:24:17 -0700, jferraro wrote: > > On Sep 19, 9:33=A0am, "John Reagan" wrote: > >> "yyyc186" wrote in message > > >>news:b1a02244-ef24-4afe-9d5d-7c93f0d9998a@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com..= . > > >> So you have to run a rock solid OS underneath and OS which is an > >> industry wide joke. > > >> My (albeit limited) understanding is that the VM runs on some cut > >> down/streamlined/whatever version of HP-UX. =A0It isn't a full multi-u= ser > >> environment that you can log into. =A0If you want to run HP-UX, you ru= n it > >> virtual along side of your virtual OpenVMS. > > >> John > > > John, > > > This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do > > wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to > > "strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL > > of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top. > > > Joe > > What launches the Virtual Machine? =A0Unix typically boots to single user= and > then multi-user, although the boot scripts often automate (^D) to =A0 > multi-user. > So the question is if is possible to launch the VM from single user? > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com Once the underlying HP-UX [hypervisor] is booted, one can launch one's VMs by using `hpvmconsole` or with an appropriate script. While I've not attempted to bring up IVM from single user, my guess is that you'd need at least [default] run-level 2 since, I believe, the guests rely on the underlying hosts TCP-IP stack and network devices, for example. By default, hpvm is started at run-level 2 on the underlying host: # model ia64 hp server rx7640 # ls -l /sbin/rc2.d/|grep hpvm lrwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 17 Sep 12 13:55 S529hpvm -> / sbin/init.d/hpvm # ls -l /sbin/rc3.d/|grep hpvm lrwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 25 Sep 12 13:55 S829hpvmguestlib -> /sbin/init.d/hpvmguestlib ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:20:12 -0400 From: "John Reagan" Subject: Re: Running OpenVMS in a virtual machine on Itanium? Message-ID: "jferraro" wrote in message news:07f7e7af-adfb-42f5-9d12-fd58384d3296@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com... >This has not been my experience with HP IVM, thus far - though I do >wish I could agree. Unless, I haven't seen the documentation on how to >"strip down" HP-UX, the instances I am running include a FULL INSTALL >of the OS and the HP IVM layered-products on top. Then I stand corrected. I was only partially paying attention at the meeting when all of this was explained to members of my team. Perhaps that was the original intention but later things changed? Who knows. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:50:53 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Silverlight native TCP/IP Socket support in V2 Message-ID: Hi, A FYI for those of you who, like me, missed this a couple of months back: - Silverlight has introduced native Socket support with version 2 (which looks to be in about its second beta release). Sadly, only TCP at present but I'm sure UDP and multicast won't be far off. Please see Microsoft's system.net.sockets for more. Another thing I found interesting was that the other Adobe functionality that I dearly love (the Flex to Javascript FABridge) appears to have been emulated via Microsoft's "HTML Bridge". Think - "Java Sockets have more functionality, and I still can push the results over to Silverlight for presentation". So with Microsoft fully supporting Silverlight on Windows *and* OS X (and that 3rd party Linux freeware thing) one finds oneself enviably spoilt for choice when it comes to SUN Java Applets, Adobe Flex, or Microsoft Silverlight. (In addition to the standard HTML/Javascript/CSS options.) as the GUI offerings for your trusted VMS servers. *It just doesn't get any better than this!* (You pointless IFDL, DECWindows, EDT, TECO pieces of shit :-) Imagine: - . Rock Solid VMS performance, disaster tolerance, and security . Huge heritage of business-rules, data, and 3GL code . Internet- Explorer, FireFox, Chrome, (and the also rans) as a launch-agent . (JavaScript, HTML, Java, Flex, Silverlight) as your GUI and the world is yours!!! . VMS applications fully integrated with your web-facing *nix or IIS infrastructure I mean "What's it all about eh???" . SUN "We like" Java Applet Socket Support . Adobe "We like" Flex Socket Support . Microsoft "We like" Silverlight Socket support . HTML5 "We like" "bollocks :-(" [Web]socket support You can front-end your existing *and future* VMS 3GL +/- Rdb (or Orrible Oracle) code with all of this amazing technology, *and you can do it today!* TIER3 - Be upstanding you ignorant swine, for you are in the presence of greatness! Or maybe you can rock-up to the technical update days and listen to how great Java on VMS is? How great SOAP is 'cos Eric IONA, Doh! Progress Doh! says it is? How great WSIT is and how all of those VMS/3GL sites are flocking to it and not abandoning their beloved OS in droves? How millions of license payer dollars were not really lost on Bridgeworks 'cos this is America and with the stroke of a pen the incumbents can insist that they did nothing wrong while socializing the losses after having privatised the profits for so many years? You have the constitutional and God-given right to bear arms; maybe it's time VMS middle management were made aware of your willingness to exercise that right? Cheers Richard Maher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:32:54 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <08092100325425_20202860@antinode.info> SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days. I'm (still) using: HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 7 on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2 with an SSH service limit of 64, which helps to limit the duration of a typical attack, because the attackers appear to leave connections open long enough to hit the limit. After an OPCOM message like: "INTERnet ACP SSH Reject Request - service limit - from Host: 210.48.157.82 Port: 45443", the attack ends, and then, over a period of some minutes, the connections are cleared out, so normal operation can resume. With a higher service limit, the attacks run longer, wasting resources. With a smaller limit, an attack becomes a (temporary) denial of service, until some of the connections dissipate. It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address connection limit. I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more legitimate sources. Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in some new TCPIP version?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-info 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:10:59 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <48d60243$0$12404$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address > connection limit. > Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in > some new TCPIP version?) What is really needed is the breaking evasion system to be configurable to call some shareable image or DCL procedure whenever an event occurs and provide it with the appropriate information. Then, sites could write code that implements their own policies. (for instance, adding a block for that IP at the router level, at the TCPIP stack level for X minutes, or sending a message to a pager etc etc). Of course, this isn't of much use for all of the TCPIP software that doesn't call the intrusion detection stuff and allow thousands of login attempts to go unlogged. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:50:03 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <2f6d53bc-547c-4df0-99d6-786c88009d63@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On 21 sep, 07:32, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > =A0 =A0SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days. > I'm (still) using: > > =A0 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 7 > =A0 on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2 > > with an SSH service limit of 64, which helps to limit the duration of a > typical attack, because the attackers appear to leave connections open > long enough to hit the limit. =A0After an OPCOM message like: "INTERnet > ACP SSH Reject Request - service limit - from Host: 210.48.157.82 Port: > 45443", the attack ends, and then, over a period of some minutes, the > connections are cleared out, so normal operation can resume. > > =A0 =A0With a higher service limit, the attacks run longer, wasting > resources. =A0With a smaller limit, an attack becomes a (temporary) denia= l > of service, until some of the connections dissipate. > > =A0 =A0It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address > connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH > connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that > kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more > legitimate sources. > > =A0 =A0Anyone else think that this might be useful? =A0(Or is it already = in > some new TCPIP version?) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > =A0 =A0Steven M. Schweda =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 sms@antinode-info > =A0 =A0382 South Warwick Street =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(+1) 651-699-9818 > =A0 =A0Saint Paul =A0MN =A055105-2547 Interesting. My Digital Server 5305 has been turned on for two weeks now and yesterday evening an SSH attempt to logon on failed. I was using OPA0: so that's why I saw the intrusion. As it happens, I scan twice a month for login failures: ACC/SINCE=3D..../ TYPE=3DLOGFAIL/FULL And learned that SSH intrusions are logged differently. Well, TELNET intrusions happen two to four times a month. But SSH intrusions happen twice a day; at least. TRACEROUTE tells you interesting things, though. About 30% comes from Russia, 20% from Asia, 10% is Europe and the rest, believe it or not, from California ! The message code returned by ACCOUNTING is %x1764CFBC, which I can't translate to a text for some reason. BTW the system runs: $ tcpip sho ver HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.6 - ECO 2 on a DIGITAL Server 5000 Model 5305 6533A 5/533 4MB running OpenVMS V8.3 $ Hans ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:04:54 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <00A7FF51.93B541CC@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <48d60243$0$12404$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >Steven M. Schweda wrote: > >> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address >> connection limit. > >> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in >> some new TCPIP version?) > >What is really needed is the breaking evasion system to be configurable >to call some shareable image or DCL procedure whenever an event occurs >and provide it with the appropriate information. > >Then, sites could write code that implements their own policies. (for >instance, adding a block for that IP at the router level, at the TCPIP >stack level for X minutes, or sending a message to a pager etc etc). > >Of course, this isn't of much use for all of the TCPIP software that >doesn't call the intrusion detection stuff and allow thousands of login >attempts to go unlogged. I wrote a bit of code I called SSH PEER. It gets the remote IP address of an SSH client and displays it in the ACCPORNAM field of the terminal. It's some of my same technology which Process Software is using in Multi- Net and TCPware. If HP won't add such capabilities to their SSH, I could augment SSH_PEER with what you describe or even create a whole new beg of code to implement this. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:04:34 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: In article <08092100325425_20202860@antinode.info>, Steven M. Schweda wrote: > SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days. >I'm (still) using: [...] > It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address >connection limit. I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH >connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that >kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more >legitimate sources. > > Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in >some new TCPIP version?) I realize that you've asked for a particular way to skin a cat, but if you would like a different approach, visit Aaron's OpenVMS Hobbyist website, where he has created a Q 'n' D to detect intruders, and add netowrk routes that point to a "bitbucket" local address to limit the amount of resources these creeps consume. I've adopted the routine for my TCPware stack, and added the suspects to a command file which is executed on startup, and re-routes the IP addresses to the bitbucket. Downside: my routing table is getting bigger and bigger - perhaps this will represent unwanted overhead on the IP stack? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:59:27 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <00A7FF61.945F9460@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) writes: >In article <08092100325425_20202860@antinode.info>, Steven M. Schweda wrote: >> SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these days. >>I'm (still) using: >[...] >> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address >>connection limit. I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH >>connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that >>kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more >>legitimate sources. >> >> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in >>some new TCPIP version?) > >I realize that you've asked for a particular way to skin a cat, but if you >would like a different approach, visit Aaron's OpenVMS Hobbyist website, where >he has created a Q 'n' D to detect intruders, and add netowrk routes that point >to a "bitbucket" local address to limit the amount of resources these creeps >consume. URL to this item? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:17:41 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: In article <00A7FF61.945F9460@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >In article , BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) writes: [...] >>I realize that you've asked for a particular way to skin a cat, but if you >>would like a different approach, visit Aaron's OpenVMS Hobbyist website, where >>he has created a Q 'n' D to detect intruders, and add netowrk routes that point >>to a "bitbucket" local address to limit the amount of resources these creeps >>consume. > >URL to this item? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 05:49:56 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:04:54 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > In article <48d60243$0$12404$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei > writes: >> Steven M. Schweda wrote: >> >>> It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address >>> connection limit. >> >>> Anyone else think that this might be useful? (Or is it already in >>> some new TCPIP version?) >> >> What is really needed is the breaking evasion system to be configurable >> to call some shareable image or DCL procedure whenever an event occurs >> and provide it with the appropriate information. >> >> Then, sites could write code that implements their own policies. (for >> instance, adding a block for that IP at the router level, at the TCPIP >> stack level for X minutes, or sending a message to a pager etc etc). >> >> Of course, this isn't of much use for all of the TCPIP software that >> doesn't call the intrusion detection stuff and allow thousands of login >> attempts to go unlogged. > > I wrote a bit of code I called SSH PEER. It gets the remote IP address > of an SSH client and displays it in the ACCPORNAM field of the terminal. > It's some of my same technology which Process Software is using in Multi- > Net and TCPware. If HP won't add such capabilities to their SSH, I could > augment SSH_PEER with what you describe or even create a whole new beg of > code to implement this. Typically these attacks, as I have observed, do port scanning from some IP, that might lead to a strategy for detection. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:42:48 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: > > =A0 It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address > >connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH > >connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that > >kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more > > I've adopted the routine for my TCPware stack, and added the suspects to = a > command file which is executed on startup, and re-routes the IP addresses= to > the bitbucket. =A0Downside: my routing table is getting bigger and bigger= - > perhaps this will represent unwanted overhead on the IP stack? Perhaps you should look at automatically flushing the route tables similarly to some of the IDS software I've seen in the *nix world. It seems to me that even a deny for 30 mins would thwart many of the attacks - since 99% of what I've seen are from script-kiddies with brute-force methods. Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:26:49 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: <00A8002E.911BEFEF@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , jferraro writes: > >> > =A0 It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address >> >connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH >> >connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that >> >kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more >> >> I've adopted the routine for my TCPware stack, and added the suspects to = >a >> command file which is executed on startup, and re-routes the IP addresses= > to >> the bitbucket. =A0Downside: my routing table is getting bigger and bigger= > - >> perhaps this will represent unwanted overhead on the IP stack? > >Perhaps you should look at automatically flushing the route tables >similarly to some of the >IDS software I've seen in the *nix world. It seems to me that even a >deny for 30 mins >would thwart many of the attacks - since 99% of what I've seen are >from script-kiddies >with brute-force methods. The simplest way to reduce (read, not eliminate) this is to move off of default port 22! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:09:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com Subject: Re: SSH break-in attempts Message-ID: On Sep 21, 2:50=A0am, H Vlems wrote: > On 21 sep, 07:32, s...@antinode.info (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > > > > =A0 =A0SSH break-in attempts seem to be getting more frequent these day= s. > > I'm (still) using: > > > =A0 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 7 > > =A0 on a COMPAQ Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS V7.3-2 > > > with an SSH service limit of 64, which helps to limit the duration of a > > typical attack, because the attackers appear to leave connections open > > long enough to hit the limit. =A0After an OPCOM message like: "INTERnet > > ACP SSH Reject Request - service limit - from Host: 210.48.157.82 Port: > > 45443", the attack ends, and then, over a period of some minutes, the > > connections are cleared out, so normal operation can resume. > > > =A0 =A0With a higher service limit, the attacks run longer, wasting > > resources. =A0With a smaller limit, an attack becomes a (temporary) den= ial > > of service, until some of the connections dissipate. > > > =A0 =A0It seems to me that a useful feature would be a per-IP-address > > connection limit. =A0I could easily live with no more than, say, 16 SSH > > connections from any particular IP address, and if an attacker hit that > > kind of limit, it would not interfere with connections coming from more > > legitimate sources. > > > =A0 =A0Anyone else think that this might be useful? =A0(Or is it alread= y in > > some new TCPIP version?) > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > =A0 =A0Steven M. Schweda =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 sms@antinode-info > > =A0 =A0382 South Warwick Street =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(+1) 651-699-9818 > > =A0 =A0Saint Paul =A0MN =A055105-2547 > > Interesting. My Digital Server 5305 has been turned on for two weeks > now and yesterday evening an > SSH attempt to logon on failed. I was using OPA0: so that's why I saw > the intrusion. > As it happens, I scan twice a month for login failures: ACC/SINCE=3D..../ > TYPE=3DLOGFAIL/FULL > And learned that SSH intrusions are logged differently. Well, TELNET > intrusions happen two to four times > a month. But SSH intrusions happen twice a day; at least. TRACEROUTE > tells you interesting things, though. > About 30% comes from Russia, 20% from Asia, 10% is Europe and the > rest, believe it or not, from California ! > > The message code returned by ACCOUNTING is %x1764CFBC, which I can't > translate to a text for some reason. That would be: $ @tools:trymsg %x1764CFBC From SYS$COMMON:[SYSMSG]TCPIP$MSG.EXE;1... %TCPIP-F-SSH_FATAL, non-specific fatal error condition $ Not particularly helpful in this case, but at least it tells which facility issued the message. Trymsg.Com is something I happened upon long ago (the header says the author was Douglas A. Gordon of DEC and it was written 1988, although I added a small fix to it) which goes sequentially through all the message files in Sys$Message:, does a $ SET MESSAGE to each one in turn, and then tries to retrieve the text via F$Message. I find it particularly useful for BACKUP messages. ;-p -Ken P.S. Sorry to VAXMAN for the Q-P, but Google Groups is my sole newsgroups access on weekdays. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:32:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Joshua Lehrer Subject: testing a pointer Message-ID: <380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am I imagining things, or does the routine exist? thanks joshua lehrer http://www.lehrerfamily.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:37:58 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: testing a pointer Message-ID: <6e5684aa-488c-4e23-a846-6fe067808e62@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Sep 22, 5:32=A0pm, Joshua Lehrer wrote: > I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the > memory address is readable and/or writeable. =A0I further recall that > you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather > than an actual memory address. =A0I can't seem to find the routine. =A0Am > I imagining things, or does the routine exist? > > thanks > > joshua lehrerhttp://www.lehrerfamily.com/ There is PROBER and PROBEW available in MACRO32 and as C builtins http://h71000.www7.hp.com/commercial/c/docs/5492profile_032.html ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 2008 12:57:01 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: testing a pointer Message-ID: In article <380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Joshua Lehrer writes: > I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the > memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that > you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather > than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am > I imagining things, or does the routine exist? The PROBEx instructions do this for VAXen, and on Alpha PAL_PROBEx. If you're programming in C there is a builtin for getting to these, that is probably somehow supported on I64. You can also access a lot of instructions via LIB$instruction named routines, but PROBEx aren't amoung them as most applications would not do this. You can also set up an exception handler and intentionally reference the locations. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:19:28 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: testing a pointer Message-ID: <00A80046.AFA0C919@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >In article <380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Joshua Lehrer writes: >> I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the >> memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that >> you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather >> than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am >> I imagining things, or does the routine exist? > > The PROBEx instructions do this for VAXen, and on Alpha PAL_PROBEx. > If you're programming in C there is a builtin for getting to these, > that is probably somehow supported on I64. > > You can also access a lot of instructions via LIB$instruction named > routines, but PROBEx aren't amoung them as most applications would > not do this. > > You can also set up an exception handler and intentionally reference > the locations. Depending upon what you are doing, you can also establish EXE$SIGTORET as your procedure's condition handler and simply go reference whatever your pointer points to. If you can't access it, the ACCVIO will be translated to a return status (SS$_ACCVIO) by EXE$SIGTORET in your routine. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:35:21 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: testing a pointer Message-ID: Hi Joshua, > Am > I imagining things, or does the routine exist? FWIW, I use the IFNORD/WRT macros rather than the PROBEx instructions directly. IIRC exe$probe[r] lets you check all pages in a range (not just first and last?) and specify a range of addresses/pages > 65535 bytes. (R3 = Previous Mode, R1 = Number of Bytes, R0 = base address) Cheers Richard Maher "Joshua Lehrer" wrote in message news:380c8bcf-b2c4-4b80-b3f1-74b96ce988d1@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > I vaguely remember a library call to test a pointer to see if the > memory address is readable and/or writeable. I further recall that > you might have passed in a page/pagelet or maybe even a range, rather > than an actual memory address. I can't seem to find the routine. Am > I imagining things, or does the routine exist? > > thanks > > joshua lehrer > http://www.lehrerfamily.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:58:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). That is how we ended up moving a mission-critical VAX/VMS application from =93a dual host VAX-4300 cluster with 20 spindles on four DSSI busses=94 to =93a platform consisting of two DL380 chassis and one full MSA chassis=94 even though we still have the source code. The new OS is Windows Server 2003 and VAX emulation is done with CHARON. The whole thing works so you cannot blame MS, or HP, or the CHARON product, but only time will tell if this PC solution will outlast the VAX it replaced. My employer is responsible for three fubars, which I will pass on to you now. 1) Even though we are using controller based RAID, someone requested that system disk shadowing be "host based". OK, this should not be a big deal except one of the installers was doing a VMS shutdown at the same time another installer manually stopped the service (did I mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT service?). This resulted in a corrupt system disk, which meant that we received a stack dump whenever the shadow driver loaded at the next boot. This could only be fixed by a conversational boot (on whichever disk was good) then remounting the mate disk to it. Ouch! (back in the day we saw real time events like AC-low and DC-low which would warn the processor to prepare for a catastophe; its kind of hard to emulate that level of detail when the emulator is stopped by someone without enough caffeine :-) 2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to get involved too. So even though this is not a real Windows application, they decided to configure all the windows domain stuff. Now any corporate idiot browsing the windows domain can see this box and attempt to connect with it (hopefully network-based authentication and privs work properly). The first time our application went off-line seemed to coincide with something in the Windows event log with a message similar to =93arbitrating for Windows domain mastership=94 or some such nonsense. (One NIC belongs to Windows whilst the other two belong to VMS; Others have told me that smart CHARON users unplug the Windows NIC and only reconnect it when Windows maintenance is required. Not so with my employer) 3) This is a Windows box on our corporate intranet so someone decided to install McAfee anti-virus protection. The CHARON installation group warned everyone to restrict McAfee to only monitoring the =93C=94 partition. Two days later, another nosy Windows expert noticed that McAfee was misconfigured and so decided to help us poor sods. That is when McAfee noticed some software mysteriously writing directly to the =93D=94 partition, assumed it was a virus then shut it down. Did I mention that CHARON runs out of the =93D=94 partition? That virus was CHARON. Ouch! Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:46:55 -0600 From: "Michael D. Ober" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: I assume your point is that people are stupid. None of this sounds like a VMS, CHARON, or Windows problem. It sounds more like non-existent configuration management on even less communications. Mike Ober. "Neil Rieck" wrote in message news:9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). That is how we ended up moving a mission-critical VAX/VMS application from “a dual host VAX-4300 cluster with 20 spindles on four DSSI busses” to “a platform consisting of two DL380 chassis and one full MSA chassis” even though we still have the source code. The new OS is Windows Server 2003 and VAX emulation is done with CHARON. The whole thing works so you cannot blame MS, or HP, or the CHARON product, but only time will tell if this PC solution will outlast the VAX it replaced. My employer is responsible for three fubars, which I will pass on to you now. 1) Even though we are using controller based RAID, someone requested that system disk shadowing be "host based". OK, this should not be a big deal except one of the installers was doing a VMS shutdown at the same time another installer manually stopped the service (did I mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT service?). This resulted in a corrupt system disk, which meant that we received a stack dump whenever the shadow driver loaded at the next boot. This could only be fixed by a conversational boot (on whichever disk was good) then remounting the mate disk to it. Ouch! (back in the day we saw real time events like AC-low and DC-low which would warn the processor to prepare for a catastophe; its kind of hard to emulate that level of detail when the emulator is stopped by someone without enough caffeine :-) 2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to get involved too. So even though this is not a real Windows application, they decided to configure all the windows domain stuff. Now any corporate idiot browsing the windows domain can see this box and attempt to connect with it (hopefully network-based authentication and privs work properly). The first time our application went off-line seemed to coincide with something in the Windows event log with a message similar to “arbitrating for Windows domain mastership” or some such nonsense. (One NIC belongs to Windows whilst the other two belong to VMS; Others have told me that smart CHARON users unplug the Windows NIC and only reconnect it when Windows maintenance is required. Not so with my employer) 3) This is a Windows box on our corporate intranet so someone decided to install McAfee anti-virus protection. The CHARON installation group warned everyone to restrict McAfee to only monitoring the “C” partition. Two days later, another nosy Windows expert noticed that McAfee was misconfigured and so decided to help us poor sods. That is when McAfee noticed some software mysteriously writing directly to the “D” partition, assumed it was a virus then shut it down. Did I mention that CHARON runs out of the “D” partition? That virus was CHARON. Ouch! Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:51:25 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: Neil Rieck schrieb: > <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> > > It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the > recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other > metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). TCO is only important if it shows that the desired "new" solution is cheaper than the "old" one. Most of the time, however, it's the price of the hardware which counts. > (did I > mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT > service?). Being cynical, one could ask who was the idiot that decided that NT is the OS of choice to host Charon as a VAX/VMS emulator. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:57:28 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: "Neil Rieck" wrote in message news:9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... ><<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> [...] >1) Even though we are using controller based RAID, someone requested >that system disk shadowing be "host based". OK, this should not be a >big deal except one of the installers was doing a VMS shutdown at the >same time another installer manually stopped the service (did I >mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT >service?). This resulted in a corrupt system disk, which meant that we >received a stack dump whenever the shadow driver loaded at the next >boot. This could only be fixed by a conversational boot (on whichever >disk was good) then remounting the mate disk to it. Ouch! I was surprised at first to think that an emulator could allow for HBVS, but I'm glad to see it can be done. Question, though: Did you mean to imply that you had *both* RAID and HBVS in the same system? Seems a mite complicated to me. My other comment is that once HBVS was decided upon, all management tasks should have been turned over to the VMS-knowledgeable folks, since HBVS is a critter not seen outside of VMS. >2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to >get involved too. So even though this is not a real Windows >application, they decided to configure all the windows domain stuff. See my comment above - VMS, whether emulated or not, should properly be the "domain" of those trained to use it. :-) [...] >3) This is a Windows box on our corporate intranet so someone decided >to install McAfee anti-virus protection. The CHARON installation group >warned everyone to restrict McAfee to only monitoring the “C” >partition. Two days later, another nosy Windows expert noticed that >McAfee was misconfigured and so decided to help us poor sods. That is >when McAfee noticed some software mysteriously writing directly to the >“D” partition, assumed it was a virus then shut it down. Did I mention >that CHARON runs out of the “D” partition? That virus was CHARON. Didn't you realize that VMS stands for "Virus Management System"? :-) [...] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:16:18 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message news:gb6fjm$ent$03$1@news.t-online.com... > Neil Rieck schrieb: >> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> >> >> It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the >> recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other >> metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). > > TCO is only important if it shows that the desired "new" > solution is cheaper than the "old" one. > Most of the time, however, it's the price of the hardware > which counts. > >> (did I >> mention that a fully configured CHARON environment runs as an NT >> service?). > > Being cynical, one could ask who was the idiot that decided > that NT is the OS of choice to host Charon as a VAX/VMS emulator. > Being only mildly cynical, Bob 'GQ' Palmer and all who came after him...... except Pfeiffer. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:45:42 -0400 From: "Steven Underwood" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <56BBk.16626$Dj1.154@newsfe01.iad> "Neil Rieck" wrote in message news:9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>> It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). That is how we ended up moving a mission-critical VAX/VMS application from “a dual host VAX-4300 cluster with 20 spindles on four DSSI busses” to “a platform consisting of two DL380 chassis and one full MSA chassis” even though we still have the source code. The new OS is Windows Server 2003 and VAX emulation is done with CHARON. The whole thing works so you cannot blame MS, or HP, or the CHARON product, but only time will tell if this PC solution will outlast the VAX it replaced. I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX 7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I could not realistically even propose the solution. As it turned out, the DR system was not purchased either as "we are going to start working of a replacement platform very shortly". Of course that has not happened either. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:57:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <48d6fc32$0$12403$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Neil Rieck wrote: > (back in the day we saw real time events like AC-low and DC-low which > would warn the processor to prepare for a catastophe; its kind of hard > to emulate that level of detail when the emulator is stopped by > someone without enough caffeine :-) Oktoberfest just started in Munich. I assume Oktoberfest would also start at the same time in Kitchener ? Consuming industrial quantities of beer does have some effect on decision taking :-) :-) :-) > 2) Whenever our Windows people hear about a new system, they need to > get involved too. Politically, this should not have been sold as a VMS system running under windows. It should have been sold as a turnkey VAX emulator on an 8086 machine with specially configured OS. Another avenue is to have upper management pass an edict to force special standards/configs for that machine to prevent the MS geeks from deploying normal corporate windows environment/standards on those machines. Failing this, you would have needed to spend a lot of hours with the windows people to explain this environment and why windows only exist to host an applicationa and that none of the standard windows services must be enabled. Doesn't Charron also run on Linux ? It would have been more politically savvy to somehow find the arguments that would have convinced upper management to go with VAX hosted on a Linux instance since this way, your windows folks would not have touched it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:49:24 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by only the VMS system manager for that box ? Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:13:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <4b656635-ad34-4216-94bb-d3ef2fb5f466@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com> On Sep 21, 9:57=A0pm, JF Mezei wrote: [...snip...] > > Oktoberfest just started in Munich. =A0I assume Oktoberfest would also > start at the same time in Kitchener ? Consuming industrial quantities of > =A0beer does have some effect on decision taking :-) :-) :-) > Our Oktoberfest always starts on the Friday before the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend. This year it starts on October 10. Doing it this way, many people can enjoy both. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:26:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: On Sep 22, 4:49=A0am, JF Mezei wrote: > Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the > Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by > only the VMS system manager for that box ? > > Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? My employer has been an unofficial MS booster club for years. The WinTel people now see this as "their time" to run things and so have official access to alomost everything. There are no official VMS managers anymore as this work has been contracted out. During the cutover conference calls, there were usually 10 people on the line: usually 3 employees, and 7 contractors (spread across 3 external vendors). I'm assuming this crazy situation is happening at most large as well. Oh and one final point: most decisions are being made/influenced by 30- year-old MBAs with no computer experience other than they used one in University. (What do you need that non-MS stuff for? I never saw it in school so it must be dying or dead) NSR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:43:30 -0700 (PDT) From: johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: On Sep 22, 9:49 am, JF Mezei wrote: > Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the > Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by > only the VMS system manager for that box ? > > Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? Those authorised as administrators on the Windows domain can typically get admin access to any machine which is a member of the domain, and can therefore do all the things which Neil mentioned them doing, because as Neil said back in the first post, this machine was set up as a member of the domain. Why that was done is an interesting question, but "because we always do it that way" (ie we always blindly follow the same procedures regardless of whether they are sensible or relevant in any particular case) is a likely answer. Wrt: "can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ?" Often, yes. Even if they don't immediately get admin access, elevation of privilege exploits allow users to get admin-class access when they're not authorised for admin access. Exploits permitting this kind of thing emerge about as frequently as they are fixed. And then there are the various legitimate (?) "rescue discs" that allow admin access assuming you've got physical access to the machine to reboot it from CD/USB/etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 06:06:11 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:26:42 -0700, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Sep 22, 4:49 am, JF Mezei wrote: >> Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the >> Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by >> only the VMS system manager for that box ? >> >> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? > > My employer has been an unofficial MS booster club for years. The > WinTel people now see this as "their time" to run things and so have > official access to alomost everything. There are no official VMS > managers anymore as this work has been contracted out. During the > cutover conference calls, there were usually 10 people on the line: > usually 3 employees, and 7 contractors (spread across 3 external > vendors). I'm assuming this crazy situation is happening at most large > as well. > > Oh and one final point: most decisions are being made/influenced by 30- > year-old MBAs with no computer experience other than they used one in > University. (What do you need that non-MS stuff for? I never saw it in > school so it must be dying or dead) I would quietly one weekend reinstall under a stripped down Linux system Make sure you have two NICs one for Linux and one for VMS. > > NSR -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:31:04 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: In article , BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) writes: > I was surprised at first to think that an emulator could allow for HBVS, but > I'm glad to see it can be done. Question, though: Did you mean to imply that > you had *both* RAID and HBVS in the same system? Seems a mite complicated to > me. It's not that unusual. Back when disks were smaller, one could use RAID5 to make a larger virtual disk. However, each of the "individual disks" in the RAID5 could be a HBVS shadow set. (One could also do it the other way around, but a) one then has two RAID5 arrays and b) the "individual disks" in the shadow set are much larger and result in larger copy times if one physical disk fails and needs to be replaced.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:25:51 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <48d7d522$0$6100$ba620dc5@nova.planet.nl> on 21-9-2008 23:57 Brad Hamilton wrote... [snip] > I was surprised at first to think that an emulator could allow for HBVS, but > I'm glad to see it can be done. Question, though: Did you mean to imply that > you had *both* RAID and HBVS in the same system? Seems a mite complicated to > me. Well, as soon as you realize that it's the VAX *hardware* that is being emulated, you'll find that any and all software that runs/has run on that hardware, will run on the emulated hardware as well. Even the hardware diagnostics! > My other comment is that once HBVS was decided upon, all management tasks > should have been turned over to the VMS-knowledgeable folks, since HBVS is a > critter not seen outside of VMS. Storage redundancy is "cheaper" in terms of systems resources when done at the controller level, but for systems management reasons it's sometimes advisable to just add HBVS on top. Costs a few VMS cycles, but a VAX on a new DL380 is much faster than the original VAX, and has CPUcapacity to spare I'm sure. And yes, I've come across those "helpful" Windows systems admins as well, but you learn to cope with it in the end... /Wilm ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 2008 12:50:40 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? Gee, that sounds so hard. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 2008 18:00:34 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <6jq4q2F4727uU3@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >> >> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? > > Gee, that sounds so hard. > > ;-) You want to stop by here and put some money on your ability to get into a machine I set up without knowing the password? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:31:25 -0500 From: pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: In article <6jq4q2F4727uU3@mid.individual.net>, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei > writes: >>> >>> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? >> >> Gee, that sounds so hard. >> >> ;-) > >You want to stop by here and put some money on your ability to get into >a machine I set up without knowing the password? > >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Bill -- Do I get physical access... If so when should I head to Pennsylvania. With physical access to the hardware all bets are off. bill -- -- Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 18:36:43 -0400 From: "Steven Underwood" Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <46VBk.12004$Il.1936@newsfe09.iad> "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > Out of curiosity, how come your Windows weenies got the passwords to the > Windows box that runs VMS ? Shouldn't that password have been kept by > only the VMS system manager for that box ? > > Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? It was mentioned this was added to the corporate domain, so any Domain Administrator would automatically get full access to the box. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 2008 23:57:59 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. Message-ID: <6jqpo7F4lkipU1@mid.individual.net> In article , pechter@pcp09822625pcs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net (Bill Pechter) writes: > In article <6jq4q2F4727uU3@mid.individual.net>, > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <48d75ccb$0$12411$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei >> writes: >>>> >>>> Or can someone get into Windows without knowing a password ? >>> >>> Gee, that sounds so hard. >>> >>> ;-) >> >>You want to stop by here and put some money on your ability to get into >>a machine I set up without knowing the password? >> > > Bill -- > > Do I get physical access... If so when should I head to Pennsylvania. > > With physical access to the hardware all bets are off. Same rules apply to VMS. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:49:01 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? Message-ID: <48D480BD.FC5D19F8@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > Is it just me in my ever-so-slightly-different universe, or is there no > way to obtain a process' current WSquota, WSextent etc values with SHOW > PROCESS ? > > [snip] > > I would like to know what the authorized WSEXTENT is for that job. From DCL, no - nothing "easy". Try SDA (ANALYZE/SYSTEM) and SHOW PROCESS within SDA to view the current quotas and usage information. D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:17:45 -0500 From: BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? Message-ID: In article <48d09a6c$0$12392$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote: >Is it just me in my ever-so-slightly-different universe, or is there no >way to obtain a process' current WSquota, WSextent etc values with SHOW >PROCESS ? How about SHOW_QUOTA.COM at dcl.openvms.org? [...] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:52:16 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? Message-ID: <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED60D7DCB@GVW1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 12:49 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: What is a process' current WSxxxxx quotas ? > > JF Mezei wrote: > > > > Is it just me in my ever-so-slightly-different universe, or is there > no > > way to obtain a process' current WSquota, WSextent etc values with > SHOW > > PROCESS ? > > > > [snip] > > > > I would like to know what the authorized WSEXTENT is for that job. > > From DCL, no - nothing "easy". > > Try SDA (ANALYZE/SYSTEM) and SHOW PROCESS within SDA to view the > current > quotas and usage information. > > D.J.D. As mentioned in my earlier reply: On VMS V8.3+ Alpha/Integrity - $ Show Proc x/cont Hit W (from memory, or Q? to flip back and forth) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Sep 2008 07:32:07 -0500 From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: [OT] LHC costs, was: Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours Message-ID: In article , Michael Kraemer writes: > AEF schrieb: > >> >> Basic research is important. Even relativity (both special and >> general) has a commercial use; namely, GPS. I think that’s the only >> commercial use of it; most or all other use is by astrophysicists and >> cosmologists and the like. >> >> The idea that one can build a laser was first brought to light by >> Einstein doing basic research. > > What were the costs to develop the theory of relativity ? > It just took a brilliant brain, a pencil and > (probably numerous) sheets of paper. > But OTOH, for anyone who considers the LHC expensive, consider how many LHCs you can buy for the cost of the US$85 billion bailout by the US government. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.513 ************************