From: SMTP%"RELAY-INFO-VAX@CRVAX.SRI.COM" 14-JUL-1993 09:53:07.90 To: EVERHART CC: Subj: Alisa & White Pine Epilogue From: m3047@halcyon.com (Fred Morris) X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: Alisa & White Pine Epilogue Date: 13 Jul 1993 01:36:36 -0700 Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Lines: 581 Sender: news@nwfocus.wa.com Message-Id: <21ts6k$n3g@nwfocus.wa.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: nwfocus.wa.com Summary: My mailbox has been quiet for a month now... Keywords: Alisa White Pine terminal emulation CTERM LAT To: Info-VAX@kl.sri.com X-Gateway-Source-Info: USENET Hi folks. My mailbox has been quiet on this subject for a month now, so I thought I'd post the final ever post on the subject of using AlisaTerm with White Pine's Mac320. If a rep from either company ever suggests it to you, you would be well advised to show them this document. I leave your next step after that to you. My suggestion is: DON'T DO IT! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Re: White Pine, CTERM, Alisa, LAT, Macintosh Centris From: mip@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk Date: Mon, 10 May 93 11:51:53 WET DST In article <1skqng$gej@nwfocus.wa.com> you write: |> We're trying to use White Pine's Mac320 on a Macintosh Centris |> to connect via EtherNet to a VAX/VMS system. They want to |> use CTERM rather than LAT protocol. This apparently means using |> an Alisa driver patch which White Pine supplied with instructions |> to use it instead of the communications tools (communications tools |> are Macintosh protocol "drivers") supplied with Mac320. Hi, Your subject line should be how to waste a week of your life with crappy Mac system software ;-) Just had a very similar problem trying to get pathworks DECnet up and running on our new shiny (crap) Quadra 800. We found that although a connection was made between the MAC and the VAX no reply was ever received by the MAC. After wasting heaps of time DEC came up with a Pathworks patch disk (hand written on it "Quadra / Centris patch"). This installs a new extension called the "responder" and changes some other files in the system folder. CTERM now works (LAT always did). So in other words get in touch with DEC if it's pathworks you're running (we have V1.1). There is apparently a version 1.1a floating about which should fix these problems - unfortunately we haven't been able to find it in the UK .... We still find Mail for MacIntosh crshes the system but 1.1a was meant to cure this. It's not obvious that 1.2 will include the correct patches. We'll have to wait and see. Hope I've been some help. Feel free to summarise and post to the net - I have a feeling other people may find this interesting. (I would post but our news system is screwed according to the Computing Service...) Cheers, Mark Parsons Edinburgh HEP Group / Aleph Collaboration, LEP, CERN --=ooOOoo=-- Parsons@edinburgh.ac.uk OR Parsons@cernvm.cern.ch ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 May 1993 12:56:56 +0000 (U) From: BrandT Subject: RE: White Pine, CTERM, Alisa, LAT, Macintosh Centris Fred, >Any other ideas on where I might ask? White Pine doesn't appear >to have an internet address.. fooey. Try Alisa, they are on the Net :) To: Support@alisa.com ++++ Alisa Systems, Inc. (ALISA-DOM) 221 East Walnut Street Suite 175 Pasadena, CA 91101 Domain Name: ALISA.COM Administrative Contact: Denny, Robert (RD277) denny@BOB.ALISA.COM (818) 792-9474 ext. 113 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Stine, David (DS488) dstine@CISCO.COM (415) 688-4681 Record last updated on 07-Aug-91. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 May 93 9:25:59 cdt From: "McMahon,Brian D" Subject: Re: White Pine, CTERM, Alisa, LAT, Macintosh Centris Fred Morris writes: > We really need a connection. Anybody have specific experience > with what we are trying to do? Anybody using EtherNet and > a CTERM or LAT tool on a Macintosh running System 7.1? Sure, all over campus. Most of our boxes are still System 6.0.*, but we've had no problems out of the 7.* guys so far. No Centrises on campus...yet. We experienced SERIOUS problems (compatibility and performance) with Alisa's CTERM driver and White Pine's stuff. That was quite a while ago, though (using Mac241, to give you an idea -- about two years now), so they might have fixed it. We run Mac340 with LAT and it works just fine. Maybe you could tell me more about exactly what is happening? "Doesn't work" covers a lot of ground.... > Any other ideas on where I might ask? White Pine doesn't appear > to have an internet address.. fooey. Strictly true. However, they do have an AppleLink address, so you should be able to reach them as WHITEPINE@APPLELINK.APPLE.COM. This is listed in Appendix A of the Mac300 Series User Manual. Brian McMahon Postmaster / Acad. Software Support Grinnell College Computer Services Grinnell, Iowa 50112 USA Voice: +1 515 269 4901 Fax: +1 515 269 4936 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: jms@opus1.com (Joel M-for-Vnews Snyder) Subject: Re: White Pine, CTERM, Alisa, LAT, Macintosh Centris Summary: Big problems with Mac320 and EtherNet Date: 10 May 1993 14:15 MST Keywords: Terminal Emulation EtherNet Macintosh VMS CTERM In article <1skqng$gej@nwfocus.wa.com>, m3047@halcyon.com (Fred Morris) writes... >We're trying to use White Pine's Mac320 on a Macintosh Centris >to connect via EtherNet to a VAX/VMS system. They want to >use CTERM rather than LAT protocol. This apparently means using >an Alisa driver patch which White Pine supplied with instructions >to use it instead of the communications tools (communications tools >are Macintosh protocol "drivers") supplied with Mac320. I think the problem might be both your Centris and 7.1. My DECnet stopped working when I went to a Quadra 800. I fell back to a Q700, and it worked fine until I upgraded to 7.1, and then it stopped working again. Digital promises that 1.2 of Pathworks will include a working DECnet. They ship TSSnet, which is different from Alisa. So, if you "really need a connection," try getting 1.2 of Pathworks, which will work with White Pines Mac320, a Centris, and 7.1. I've found the support from White Pines to be rather mediocre. Part of this is the Mac environment: we don't have anything like a "crash dump" we can send them to show a problem. But they're also not all that interested in hunting down problems that only one or two customers report (but who is)? Personally, after evaluating all of the terminal emulators available, I'd suggest getting Versaterm and plugging it into the Pathworks CTERM tool. White Pines is a fine product, but Synergy (the folks who make Versaterm) was much more interested in working with me to fix bugs and problems. In any case, Pathworks 1.2 will probably help your CTERM problems, or you could bug Alisa for a better CTERM tool. jms Joel M Snyder, 1103 East Spring Street, Tucson, AZ, 85719 +1 602 882 4094 (voice) 882 4095 (FAX) 882 4093 (data) jms@Opus1.COM Opus One Yow! I threw up on my window! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 May 93 00:44:18 PDT From: avk@hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu (Tony Konashenok) Subject: Re: is alisa.com defunct? Who told you alisa.com is on TCP/IP network? any alisa.com # Asking network domain name servers ... ;; QUESTIONS: ;; alisa.com, type - ANY, class = ANY ;; ANSWERS: alisa.com IN NS NS.UU.NET alisa.com IN NS UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM alisa.com IN NS UUCP-GW-2.PA.DEC.COM alisa.com IN NS NS.EU.NET alisa.com IN NS NS1.RUTGERS.EDU alisa.com IN MX 200 relay1.UU.NET alisa.com IN MX 200 relay2.UU.NET ;; ADDITIONAL RECORDS: NS.UU.NET IN A 137.39.1.3 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 16.1.0.18 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.119.104.111 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.13.10.78 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.101.109.97 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.119.115.32 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.116.104.97 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.33.0.30 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.97.107.32 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.32.104.97 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 2.6.149.111 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.103.105.101 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.88.32.32 UUCP-GW-1.PA.DEC.COM IN A 32.32.116.111 ;; Sent 1 pkts, answer found in time: 0.30 sec ;; FROM: nettlesome.berkeley.edu to SERVER: default ;; WHEN: Tue May 11 00:36:15 1993 # END of response to ANY command. Enter a command. -- Tony Konashenok avk@hafnium.cchem.berkeley.edu (510)843-5632 (home) University of California, Berkeley (510)642-5831 (office) Strauss research group, Latimer Hall, UC Berkeley, Berkeley CA 94720, U.S.A. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mail-server@BLOOM-PICAYUNE.MIT.EDU Subject: mail-server: "send usenet-addresses/alisa" -----cut here----- Alisa.Guerchik@f380.n634.z3.fidonet.org (Alisa Guerchik) (May 11 93) alisa@netlink.cts.com (Alisa Klein) (Nov 22 92) alisa_yaffa@mentorg.com (Alisa Yaffa) (Sep 21 92) acorstor@sequent.com (Alisa Corstorphine) (Apr 1 93) jd@alisa.com (Jeremy Daw) (Apr 1 93) denny@alisa.com (Bob Denny) (Apr 1 93) dan@homer.alisa.com (Dan Morgan) (Dec 13 92) AWAGGONE@HESTIA.FCS.UGA.EDU (Alisa W. Temple) (Mar 1 93) ron%kaveri.dnet@ALISA.FUSION.UCLA.EDU (Nov 1 92) hata@cac.washington.edu (Alisa Hata) (Nov 12 92) denny@dcthree.alisa.com (Bob Denny) (Oct 1 92) farrokh@alisa.ucla.edu (Farrokh Najmabadi) (Sep 1 92) denny@dakota.alisa.com (Bob Denny) (Sep 1 92) -----cut here----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 May 93 07:59:58 -0400 From: yjc@po.cwru.edu (Jerome 'TofuSoft' Chan) Subject: Re: Sources for comm toolbox ethernet tools There is Tim Endre's (sp) TGP TCP/IP tool. It allows any CTB application to connect via TCP/IP. It's FreeWare I think. Check the Docs. Available from Sumex. --- The Evil Tofu (Don't Shoot! I'm ignorant!) Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, USA. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 09:00:57 -0500 From: cca@sscux1.ssc.gov (Charles Allen) Subject: Re: Sources for comm toolbox ethernet tools >There are plenty of good comm packages to choose from; so the question >is, who do I approach for site licenses to some of the aforementioned >tools (or others if they exist), without having to get them bundled >with somebody's app? Apple. VersaTerm, for instance, includes the LAT tool, which means that Synergy licenses it from Apple. You haven't stated what your requirements are. Are LAT and CTERM the only possibilities? What about the telnet protocol? Synergy sells a VersaTilities pacakage that includes things like their telnet tool (I think). You might want to try them as well. Since several of the "good comm packages" include a telnet tool these days, maybe that would be sufficient. Charles Allen UTexas-Austin Physics allen@uthep2.ph.utexas.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 14:47:13 -0400 From: scout@pacvax.pacersoft.com Subject: CTB Tools > There are plenty of good comm packages to choose from; so the question > is, who do I approach for site licenses to some of the aforementioned > tools (or others if they exist), without having to get them bundled > with somebody's app? I don't know what tools you are interested in specifically, but we make available our Zmodem, FTP and TCP/Telnet tools for site license (quantity > 50). We also have a tool and host software for logging into a VAX over ADSP and doing our own file transfer. Much faster than LAT or CTERM with Xmodem, etc. transfers. Let me know what you interest is. I'd be glad to help. Peter Coppola Pacer Software, Inc. (508) 898-3300 pcoppola@pacersoft.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Morris, 71232,3343 To: the gurus Topic: CTERM, Alisa Date: Fri, May 7, 1993, 14:53:30 What kind of support is available for ethernet connections to a VAX/VMS system? Does either Microphone ][ or Microphone Pro support: o CTERM? This may be supported as part of the Communications Toolbox, but do you know for certain? o Alisa? This would be preferable for the client in question, in fact the competing product is White Pine VT 320, which does have an Alisa driver. Thanks. Fred Morris CI$ 71232,3343 m3047@halcyon.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug/Software Ventures, 76004,2161 Topic: CTERM, Alisa Date: Thu, May 13, 1993, 11:11:09 We don't supply any tools except that Pro comes with a Telnet tool. My impression is that the CTERM tool, or a CTERM tool, is an Apple product. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Morris, 71232,3343 To: all Topic: Mac Comm Tools Wanted Date: Wed, May 12, 1993, 9:35:16 So, let's say you have a Macintosh on EtherNet and there's a VAX out there running VMS. You have the appropriate EtherNet drivers on your Mac. You can get these "drag-and-drop" communications tools which are essentially protocol-level drivers; and they work when they're written right! Problem seems to be that the ones for the VAX-EtherNet connection mode aren't available from Apple, or even in dividually, but only bundled with some scummy comm program or other with lousy technical support. To heck with that, I say! I want to pick my tools and my comm program myself! I don't want to pay for a barfo site license for garbage just so I can get my hands on an interchangeable tool. So if somebody out there knows who *wrote* the LAT or CTERM Macintosh Communication Toolbox tools, so that I can try to order *directly* from them, make the world a better place and tell me! PLEASE!! Fred Morris CI$ 71232,3343 m3047@halcyon.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: petri backstrom [DEC], 100016,2256 Topic: Mac Comm Tools Wanted Date: Thu, May 13, 1993, 21:07:29 I don't know about LAT, but DECnet/CTERM for the Mac is written by Thursby. See also the PATHWORKS for Macintosh section on the DECPCI forum; people there know much more about Mac-VMS networking than what I do. ....petri ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Mike Stewart [DEC], 70550,2161 Topic: LAT/DECnet tools for Mac Date: Sun, May 30, 1993, 8:38:05 Fred, The LAT tool (and I am addressing Macintosh CommToolBox tools) is property of Digital Equipment Corporation (used to be Apple Computer Inc.'s). The CTERM tool (again I am addressing Macintosh CommToolBox tools) is property of Thursby Software Systems. Mike Stewart PATHWORKS Support Team International CSC, Atlanta Branch ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Stewart [DEC], 70550,2161 Topic: LAT/DECnet tools for Mac Date: Sun, May 30, 1993, 8:41:03 Oh and one other clarification. The DECnet and CTERM tools are two seperate tools used for different functions. The CTERM tool is used for terminal emulation via CTERM. The DECnet tool is NOT used for terminal emulation at all. It is used for DECnet conne ctivity within applications like Mail and MacX. Both however, come from TSS. Mike Stewart PATHWORKS Support Team International CSC, Atlanta Branch ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Catt, 100013,501 Topic: Alisa Support is Great! Date: Thu, Jun 3, 1993, 14:00:13 I can't reply for ASI directly but I can tell you they will fully support your client if he has a support contract. Why doesn't he talk to Alisa directly on 818 792 9474 or use our BBS rather than asking the universe before the supplier. They will also te ll him simply what his position is for nothing. AlisaTerm is old CTERM based wide area comms connection product, a small part of AlisaTalk de facto replaced in the market by DEC's licensed version of it in PathWORKS long ago. CTERM is a dog for anything other than sending continuous data, but still as far as I know the only protocol you can use for non ethernet links, e.g DECnet serial links, where LAT is not supported. Don't try to do editing or other interactive work this way, if you value your sanity. Not our fault, talk to DEC. Difficult to say more without answers to the above. Brian -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 May 1993 14:20:11 -0500 (EST) From: "F. Arthur Cochrane" Subject: Read your Info-VAX notes on White Pine terminal program for MAC I read you Info-VAX mail messages in news on DECUServe. I have used MAC240 and MAC340 for a couple of years. The first versions to use CTERM and LAT required the use of a patch to the MAC240 phone book. The later version of MAC240 and MAC340 use the Macintosh communication toolbox and use the LAt and CTERM tools fine. The Macintosh communication toolbox has to be installed on System 6.* but just put the tools in the Extensions folder on System 7.*. My biggest problem with the LAT tools is my site has hundreds of LAT services and the tool must have a small memory location to hold the services as the services will appear and disappear. The second disk with the communication tools and comm toolbox has always come with my updates. I have found White Pine to be a pretty good company to work with over the phone. They used to attend DEXPO but have not bee to the last couple. If your are attending the Spring DECUS Symposium in Atlanta I will be giving a session on Monday at 5:00 on Macintosh Connectivity. I am a VMS system manager also and also use a Macintosh IIci with MACTCP, MACx, eXodus, NCSA Telnet, Fetch, and other network items. If you would like to discuss any of this call me at (803) 725-3637. Arthur Cochrane cochrane@srs.gov ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Jeff E Mandel MD MS Subject: Re: Mac340, Alisa, VAX/VMS .. In article <1tjqu7$av7@nwfocus.wa.com> Fred Morris, m3047@halcyon.com writes: >Hopefully the White Pine guys will watch comp.os.vms and >comp.sys.mac.comm from now on; maybe they can clue Alisa in, but I >doubt it. If Alisa doesn't care about its users, why should they care >about one of the vendors who is reselling their product? > >I encouraged the guy at White Pine (who I will leave nameless) to post >periodic followups in these two groups. I hope he will! > During the years that I managed an AlisaShare server at Tulane, I found Alisa to be very good at answering internet mail, and Bob Denny is a regular contributor to several of the netnews groups. On-the-other-hand, my experience with White Pine has always been that they have little or no interest in the Internet, and if anyone in the company has ever read netnews, it is on their own time. As for Mac3x0, I was a beta tester, and I felt the program was alpha-grade when it went to beta, and beta-grade when it shipped. There are still serious problems with CLUT management, and minor problems with cursor selection and pasting. Jeff E Mandel MD MS Department of Anesthesia Brigham and Women's Hospital Harvard Medical School Boston, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 93 10:06:44 PDT From: Steve Shannon Subject: Re: Sources for comm toolbox ethernet tools FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Steve Shannon, Applications Division New World Computing, Inc. 20301 Ventura Blvd., Suite 200 Woodland Hills, CA 91364 (818) 999-0606 x218 (818) 593-3455 FAX Woodland Hills, May 5, 1993 -- New World Computing, Inc. (NWC) today announced the acquisition of Mercury Systems, Inc.'s MacIntercommT and MacIntercomm LiteT. [stuff deleted] NWC can be reached Monday through Friday 9am-5pm PST at (818) 999-0607. NWC also provides technical support on America Online (Intercomm), GEnie (Intercomm), and the Internet (help@inter.com). MacIntercommT runs on any Macintosh computer with at least 1 MB of RAM. System 6.0.4 or higher. For modem communications, a modem with cable is required. Supports any modem and all Macintosh Communications Toolbox connections. Suggested retail price is $129.95. [yet more stuff deleted] :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: Steve Shannon :: New World Computing, Inc. :: shannon@inter.com :: :: AOL-Intercomm :: AppleLink-D1933 :: CIS-71154,430 :: GEnie-Intercomm :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: A journey of a thousand miles begins with a cash advance :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: lewisc@elcsci.com (Chuck Lewis) Subject: Re: Mac340, Alisa, VAX/VMS .. Date: 25 May 93 01:25:22 GMT In article <1tjqu7$av7@nwfocus.wa.com>, m3047@halcyon.com (Fred Morris) writes: > Some of you have been following my travails with regard to White Pine > and AlisaTerm, and getting some sort of coordinated response from these > vendors to our problems. > Alisa, on the other hand... No response. Nothing comes back, either. > > Hopefully the White Pine guys will watch comp.os.vms and > comp.sys.mac.comm from now on; maybe they can clue Alisa in, but I > doubt it. If Alisa doesn't care about its users, why should they care > about one of the vendors who is reselling their product? I've recently had a very similar experience with Alisa. We purchased their MailMate/MM gateway to link MS Mail on the Mac to VMS mail via DECnet. I installed the software made had a (in my mind) simple question that should have been documented in the rather slim manual. I received no reply to e-mail request. When I did call them all I got was a referral to another person who could give me a quote on a support contract. It took him three days to return my call. At this point I was informed that it would cost $500 to get phone support to allow me to ask a question caused by an in-adequate manual. All this for software I'd only purchased a week ago. We decided to spend the $500 buying some replacement software.... ______________________________________________________________________________ |Chuck Lewis, Electro Scientific Industries |Internet: lewisc@elcsci.com |13900 NW Science Park, Portland Or 97229 |Compuserve: 71140,2271 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- There follows a private e-mail flame war between myself and Brian Catt. I am left with the impression that if he doesn't work for Alisa now, he did at one time. He never explained in what capacity. Some of his facts also seem wrong. For instance he claimed that Alisa had written DEC's CTERM tool, but DEC's tool is *not* the same functionally as the one ostensibly from Alisa, and as indicated above, DEC's was apparently written by Thursby Systems. Since I e-mailed him the above file he has not responded. Neither have I heard any more from Mike Aniskovitch at White Pine, since he e-mailed me on CompuServe with his voice number and we talked on the phone (late may, early june as I recall). I will do them both the dubious favor of not quoting them in full without their permission, because of the heated nature of some of the remarks and in respect of the private (or is that spineless?) mode that their responses took. I kind of relish a good flame war now and again, but neither of them seemed very comfortable with it. Neither of them apparently reads comp.os.vms or comp.sys.mac.comm, either. The client is using LAT, and it has worked flawlessly. We have heard nothing more from the host site, White Pine or Alisa regarding this. Fred Morris m3047@halcyon.com